Podcast Summary

Podcast: New Books Network
Host: Mike Motilla
Guest: Dr. Jeremy Swist
Episode: "Julian Augustus: Platonism, Myth and the Refounding of Rome" (Oxford UP, 2025)
Date: October 27, 2025

Overview

This episode features a conversation between host Mike Motilla and Dr. Jeremy Swist about Swist's new book, "Julian Augustus: Platonism, Myth and the Refounding of Rome." The discussion offers an in-depth look at the Emperor Julian, often known as "the last pagan emperor," but recast here not simply as an apostate or philosopher-"larper," but as a philosophically engaged ruler whose worldview and actions were deeply rooted in Neoplatonism and a vision for Rome's cultural and spiritual renewal. Dr. Swist's approach prioritizes Julian’s self-presentation over later or external narratives, drawing on Julian’s writings and the intellectual world of late antiquity to reveal a nuanced, multifaceted figure.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Who Was Julian Augustus?

• Julian is often remembered as the last pagan emperor, a "holdout" against Christianization in the generation after Constantine.
• The “popular image” portrays him as a rebel playing at being a philosopher-king, but Swist suggests that Julian's embrace of philosophy was fundamental, not superficial:

  "He had a philosophy that could actually make sense of him being emperor. Like, he wasn't pretending to do philosophy while actually being an emperor. It's more like he had a philosophical way of ruling." — Mike Motilla (03:25)

• Swist sees Julian not as an idol but as a historical mirror, complete with faults and anxieties:

  "I see him sort of as a mirror of myself...I kind of see studying Julian as kind of a gateway to self knowledge, right through the philosophy he pursues." — Jeremy Swist (05:40)

• Julian was deeply shaped by Hellenic culture, philosophical education, and a personal journey away from Christianity, paralleling Swist's own trajectory.

2. The Religious Landscape and the Myth of the "Last Pagan"

• Contrary to popular belief, the Roman Empire was still predominantly pagan at the time of Julian's rule (361–363 CE), especially outside the elite. His project to re-paganize Rome was not simply reactionary.
• Swist references research suggesting considerable "re-paganization" among elites and even bishops during Julian's short reign.

  "If Julian had a longer reign, the rate of re-paganization would actually outstrip the rate of Christianization under Constantine and his sons." — Swist (13:37)

3. Approach to Julian: Letting Him Speak for Himself

• The book is not a biography or an attempt to reconstruct the "real" Julian, but rather examines the persona Julian presented in his corpus:

  "What Julian is presenting in his writings is a rhetorically constructed Persona, right? And so what I'm doing is...is that Persona consistent across his writings?" — Swist (17:48)

• Swist distinguishes between Julian’s own philosophical cohort and later/other voices, resisting positivism in favor of a literarily and philosophically informed reading.

4. Julian and Neoplatonism: Iamblichus and Theurgy

• Julian was part of the Iamblichan Neoplatonic tradition, which saw spiritual ascent not purely as philosophical contemplation (Plotinus/Porphyry), but as requiring divine grace through theurgy—rituals revealed by gods to bridge the human-divine divide.
• Key differences from Plotinus include:
  • For Iamblichus, all of the soul descends; practical rituals and divine favor are necessary for communion with the gods.
  • Julian’s conversion to paganism reflected his commitment to a philosophical way of life (which entailed pagan practice), not a mere embrace of old customs.

5. Philosophy and Rulership: The Emperor as a Philosophical Statesman

• Julian used philosophy not as a retreat from rulership but as a guide for it.

  "He wasn't just a philosopher who happened to be called to be emperor, rather he was an emperor who had an evident strong philosophical interest that he then used to make sense of how and guide how he was emperor." — Swist (37:01)

• Drawing from Iamblichus, Julian saw rulers and philosophers as distinct; philosophers should advise from "the shade," not from direct rule.

  "Julian believes that, no, a true philosopher can only be effective working not in the open air (hupai thras), but in the shade (huposteges)..." — Swist (45:48)

• Philosophy for Julian informed rulership, but he rejected the notion that an emperor could—or should—be a full-time philosopher.

6. Julian's Piety and Self-Presentation

• Julian modeled himself as an attendant (opados), not a companion (comes), of the divine—especially in his "Hymn to King Helios."
  • Unlike Constantine, who styled himself as Sun God's near-equal, Julian saw himself as a servant of Helios—the real king—presenting an attitude of humility in divine matters.

  "...he is not the object of praise. He's actually the one who's praising the true emperor of the universe, which is not Julian, but actually Helios." — Swist (51:35)

• The language of divine service and slavery (doulos) permeates his self-definition.

7. Julian’s Roman Identity and the Symposium of the Caesars

• Julian was not simply “Greek” or “Eastern”; his sense of Romanness was profound, and he related closely to Augustus, Marcus Aurelius, and Romulus.
  • The "Symposium of the Caesars" imagines a contest of Roman emperors judged by the gods, emphasizing the emulation of founders (Romulus, Numa) as key to Roman renewal.

  "Those who most successfully emulate Romulus are those who achieve communion with the gods...Rome needs to be continually refounded and there’s more than one way to do it." — Swist (61:00)

• Julian frames himself as aspiring to these models, not arrogantly equating himself with them—emphasizing a tradition of continual renewal.

8. Julian’s Reception—Ancient and Modern

• During his lifetime, clients and orators like Libanius, Claudius Mamertinus, and Heimerius hailed him as a restorer or refounder, with different emphases (Rome, Constantinople, Greek paideia, etc.).
• After his death, Christian writers reframed Julian as "the last pagan emperor" and "the Apostate" to support the narrative of inevitable Christian triumph:

  "...the image that we have of him, like, where did that come from?...something invented by Christians." — Swist (78:07)

• Byzantine tradition, though hostile to his religion, also admired his patriotism, ability, and notably his writing style, securing the survival of much of his literary corpus.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• A Mirror for Self-Knowledge
  • "I see him sort of as a mirror of myself, with all of his faults, all of his shortcomings, all of his anxieties, as well as just the things that motivate him. And so I kind of see studying Julian as kind of a gateway to self knowledge..." — Jeremy Swist (05:40)
• The Pagan Majority
  • "The majority of people, in the year 361, when Julian became sole emperor...were still pagan, especially the people who were not in the upper classes or the establishment." — Swist (11:21)
• On Rulership and Philosophy
  • "I am so busy as emperor, I have to do all of this stuff. Like, I don't have time to do a lot...of philosophical research or things like that. I do as much as I can. Right. But clearly I have. This is my identity, this is my job. I am emperor." — Swist summarizing Julian’s own sentiment (39:59)
• Constantine and Julian's Divine Imagery
  • "[Constantine] refers to Sol Invictus as Comes Augusti...Julian does not...he refers to himself as an opados, a follower, a servant." — Swist (48:47)
• Reception: Becoming the Last Pagan Emperor
  • "...the fact that Julian was this last pagan holdout...is largely something invented by Christians. Right. Because it makes them look good...that image is...inherited...by the Renaissance and Enlightenment..." — Swist (78:07)

Timestamps of Key Segments

• 03:25 – Introduction to Julian's reputation and the need for a critical reappraisal.
• 05:40 – Swist’s personal journey and attraction to Julian’s story.
• 10:24 – The religious context of Julian’s reign and the myth of “inevitable” Christianization.
• 16:07 – Discussing methodology: focusing on Julian’s self-representation.
• 22:38 – Introduction to Iamblichus, Neoplatonism, and theurgy.
• 30:37 – How Julian encountered the Iamblichean tradition.
• 36:51 – Philosophy’s role in Julian’s self-conception as emperor.
• 47:45 – Julian’s rejection of the “philosopher king” model.
• 48:37 – “Hymn to Helios” – Julian’s humility and religious self-concept.
• 55:36 – The “Symposium of the Caesars” and Julian's sense of continuous Roman renewal.
• 69:32 – How Julian’s contemporaries and later writers described his program and legacy.
• 78:07 – The evolution of the "last pagan emperor" image.
• 82:41 – What Swist hopes readers take from the book, and reflections on historical methodology.

Takeaways and Closing Thoughts

• Swist urges readers to "let Julian speak for himself," warning against imposing retrospective labels or narratives constructed by his enemies or later writers.
• The episode demonstrates the importance of understanding historical figures within their intellectual, religious, and political contexts—not as one-dimensional symbols, but as fully realized actors shaped by and responding to the complexities of their own world.
• Julian emerges not as a tragic last pagan, but as a creative refounder deeply engaged with both the philosophy and tradition of Rome.

Further Resources & Links

• Swist’s full-cast radio translation of the Symposium of the Caesars
• Look out for Swist’s forthcoming academic projects, including a double-volume on heavy metal music and premodern worlds.

For anyone interested in Julian, Neoplatonism, or the rich intersection of philosophy and imperial politics, this episode and Swist’s book offer a nuanced, thought-provoking perspective.