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- [00:01]
A
Welcome to the New Books Network. I'm Jonathan Brent. I'm executive Director of the YIVO Institute for Jewish Research in New York. And this program is devoted to the question of Jewish identity in Lithuania today. We have a remarkable panel of participants from many different areas of Lithuanian and Jewish life here. But before we start and before I introduce our panel, I would like to say something about YIVO and why we are having this conversation, how it arose and what YIVO's interest in this subject is. As many of you undoubtedly know, YIVO began. The YIVO Institute began in Vilnius, in Vilna, Poland at that time, now vilnius, Lithuania in 1925. Ivo was started by a group of Jewish intellectuals fleeing the newly born Soviet Union. And it was a time of great excitement after World War I. The signing of the Minorities Treaty at Versailles. The possibility that Jews could become true citizens of the countries, the nations that they lived in. A time of Jewish expansion, of learning, its modernization. And so the YIVO Institute was born as the first institute of higher learning of advanced studies for the Jewish people of Eastern Europe. The purpose of it was both to study what this thousand year history in Polish lands was, and not from a religious standpoint and not from a political standpoint, but from the material social standpoint. How did Jews live for all of these years, day to day? Taking care of their children, attending schools, dealing with their neighbors, writing poetry, joining political movements. What were their interactions with the larger world like? And as a consequence of this basic drive of yivo, it amassed an enormous archive for the purpose of study of the people of the Jewish people of Eastern Europe. And this archive has grown today to the largest archive in the world that pertains to East European Jewish life. We have some 24 million documents. But by 1940, when the Nazis arrived, 1941, when the Nazis arrived, YIVO had already established itself as one of the major centers in Eastern Europe for the study of the Jewish people. And the consequence of this is that the Nazis did not destroy everything that they found in yivo. They stole a great deal and sent it to Frankfurt. Some they destroyed and other materials were hidden in the ghetto. They were given to non Jewish neighbors for safekeeping. And after the war, the materials that the Nazis had sent to Frankfurt were recovered by the US army and sent to New York. And the materials that had been hidden in Lithuania, in Vilnius, in the ghetto and given to non Jewish friends were recovered and put into a new museum of Jewish life in Lithuania. The Soviets came and by 1948 had issued a decree that all of the Materials in the Muley Made museum were liquidated. And at that point, the Lithuanian librarian, head of the Lithuanian National Book Chamber, Antonis Ulpis, rescued the materials that were in that museum, hid them from the Soviets at great risk to his life. He did not speak, as far as I know, Yiddish or Hebrew, but he knew that these were priceless cultural treasures of a civilization that had been lost. And so it is thanks to Antonos Ulkas and his colleagues that these materials were then later discovered in various locations in Lithuania, in Vilnius in particular. And so this is a great story of cultural recovery. In 2014, the YIVO Institute in New York began a project called the Edward Blank Yivo Vilna Online Collections, the purpose of which was to unify the materials that had been discovered in Lithuania with those that were in New York that had been separated for so many years by the Cold War, by the Iron Curtain, and to bring this collection together. But we couldn't bring it together physically. Therefore, what we decided to do was digitize all of the materials and bring them together in a single web platform so that people from all around the world, from Moscow to Buenos Aires, from New York to Beijing, could read the same document at the same time online and make sense of it. This project now is all but complete and it will be completed by January 2022. It is a seven year project. It has required the participation of my colleagues here in the YIVO Institute and of my colleagues in Lithuania of Jewish and non Jewish scholars and archivists and conservators for the purpose of saving culture. This is a common goal that we have achieved. It has been recognized as one of the most important such projects by the United nations and by other institutions, other international institutions around the world as a great collaboration. And it's through this process of collaboration that this program has arisen. What are the limitations of Jewish life in Lithuania? What can be hoped for? What can be expected? How do we remember the past? A painful past for many of us, an excruciating, cruel, brutal past in many elements. How do we live with that and at the same time have a future? How do we have a future? How do we have a future as a Jewish people in Lithuania? How do we have a Jewish people as a. As citizens of Lithuania? How do we think about this in the United States and elsewhere around the world? So these are some of the questions that we're going to be talking about today. But this program actually was stimulated initially by the publication of this book, Passport, the publisher of which is with us today. Kestas Picoulos and in this book, Passport, which I strongly recommend everyone to try to get a copy of, if copies are still available, and to read, contains extremely insightful essays and personal opinions of a vast number of people, Jews, non Jews, historians, philosophers, journalists, writers who don't pull punches. They say what needs to be said. And so I see this conversation that we're having today as somewhat a sequel to or stimulated by the conversations that are recorded in in Passport. But I do want to note a couple of things of importance that I derived from the reading of this book. And one is the opening statement by Irena Vesajk, in which she talks about her life. But it seemed to me the most important thing she said is that we must all overcome fear. We must overcome fear of the past, we must overcome fear of negative self image. We must overcome fear of the other. We must overcome fear. And then she tells a little story about a German historian who rode his motorbike all the way to Vilnius from Germany in order to see for himself what really had happened during the Holocaust and so on. And she says this was someone who could not continue without knowing the truth. And I think in that brief and simple summation, she expresses what is true for all of us. We cannot continue without knowing the truth. We cannot live ultimately as human beings without knowing the truth. In a very powerful essay, Thomas Venslava, the great writer, poet, Lithuanian thinker, writes, in general, amnesia holds court not just about Jewish, but also about the Lithuanian past. And books no longer mean much because of the number of readers, of serious readers, has narrowed. And so that's another subject that I hope we are able to touch on here. How we overcome this amnesia. We must understand. The destruction of the Jews is our own destruction. The dehumanization of the Jews is our own dehumanization. And the liquidation of Jewish culture is an attempt on the life of our own culture. And in my experience in Lithuania, I have found many people who recognize this, and at the same time I know there are many who don't. To express regret over the Holocaust and to express honor and respect to the Provisional Government at the very same time, Fensova writes, is squaring the circle. There is no way to solve this antinomy, and it isn't fitting to maintain any illusions regarding this issue. So this is a little introduction to the issues that I hope will stimulate this discussion today. Let me tell you about our participants. Migla Anarchska is a researcher in the Judaica center of the National Library of Lithuania, where she mainly works with manuscripts in Yiddish from the interwar period. Apart from her direct responsibilities and participation in Yivo Project, the project that I mentioned, Nygla has worked extensively with texts and translations, both from Yiddish, from English to Lithuanian. She has translated two non fiction books from English. She has also written and drawn many comic books. But I think Migla's greatest accomplishment is that she came to Yivo, who you are instrumental entire summer learning Finnish. Anna Avidan, who is a close friend and an advisor to our project in Lithuania and who first introduced me to the materials that had up to then been unknown in the Broplevsky Library, is a psychologist and educator as well as founder of an HR consulting program. She was born in Vilnius, Lithuania, in a family of Holocaust survivors. For the past 10 years Anna has led the nonprofit organization Jerusalem of the north, dedicated to celebrating Jewish history and cultural heritage in Lithuania, and is among those in the Jewish community in Lithuania who are looking to build a future and so represents a very positive force, it seems to me, in Lithuanian Jewish life today. Mindaugas Kvikowskas, also a friend, is a literary scholar, writer, translator. Kvikauskas served as Lithuanian's Minister of Culture before becoming Minister. Kvikauskas worked at the Institute of Lithuanian Literature and Folklore in Vilnius for many years and managed at this institution. In 2008 2018, Chutkauskas acquired his PhD at the Department of Lithuanian Literature at Vilnius University where he is now Associate professor in the Department of Philology and has studied Yiddish language and Literature at Oxford center for Hebrew and Jewish Studies of the University of Oxford. His main research areas are multinational literary modernism, urban culture and Lithuania Lithuania. I believe he was the first Minister of Culture in Lithuania to be fluent in Yiddish, possibly ever, and has translated the Diary of Yitzhak Rudoshevsky as well as many other books from Yiddish into Lithuania. Last is Kestis Pecunis and Kestis, as I noted, is the publisher of Passport. He is a Vilnius based publisher, author, award winning book designer and compiler. His latest work is the third volume of Passport Journal, a bilingual annual publication which brings to the reader an immersive insight into the history of the Lithuanian Jews, also known as Litvaz. Throughout all of his works, Kunis constantly stresses the importance of history, storytelling and aesthetics. He has graduated from the Columbian Union College, Washington, D.C. and Newbold College, England in 2005, then worked in printing publishing industry, former chairman of the World Lithuanian Youth Organization. So with that said, I'd like to ask each of the participants to give a brief statement of your interest, how you became drawn to the subject of Jewish Lithuanian history and culture. And then we'll open it up for general discussion. Anna, why don't you begin?
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B
Thank you, Jonathan. I would like first of all to express my deep gratitude for the Yivo Institute for bringing this sensitive and important topic to public discussion. And also I am delighted to be part of this discussion which I hope will contribute to overcoming these barriers that we have in building closer relations between Lithuania and the global Jewish community. And I represent here the Jewish side of Lithuania from inside. And I would like to start my introduction saying that I was raised during the Soviet times and my identity was built mainly by my close relationship with my grandmother who was a Holocaust survivor and by my parents who were non conformists and never joined the Communist Party. And my father achieved got high achievements in his career being dean of the faculty during the Soviet times, having one more disadvantage. He was Jewish and non communist. And also when I was nine years old, a woman came into our class at school and she called several people from the class to go out and almost whispering, she invited us to join the Jewish folk dance group which for us was a big surprise. And it was now famous group Firelag, which which gave a possibility for us to develop our identities and to lead Jewish life which was in underground because you know that Jewish culture was not forbidden during the Soviet times, but there were many restrictions and only suppression of it was had no restrictions. So you know, everything was in hiding, in silence. And I am telling that because now when we are enjoying free life in Lithuania, very often I can't believe that so many things are allowed. And when I'm asked about Jewish life in Lithuania today, I have to say many positive things because the young Jewish generation in Lithuania can study, have even Jewish non formal and formal education. They have managerial positions. It would be unimaginable if anyone wouldn't be accepted for a job because he is Jewish. Today in Lithuania, and especially when the young generation they have small children and I'm sure you would enjoy knowing what specifically Jewish names are given to these young kids. It means that young generation today feels secure and comfortable still when it comes to the topic of the Holocaust, an awkward silence arises and. And this issue is I would say, the only one attitude towards Holocaust and attitude towards the history and interpretation of the history and evaluation of the events. This is the only thing that separates Jews and Lithuanians since the second World War. And this is our main concern because at the one hand we see really sincere and warm speeches of our politicians during the occasional commemoration ceremonies. But at the same Time, as you mentioned from the article of Professor Thomas Wenslow, the language of the monuments, which expresses the state ideology says different things. And this is a very sensitive contradiction that has to be resolved. And we are talking and discussing that a lot. But these discussions, I think they should be more public and Jews and Lithuanians should discuss that among them, not Jewish. This has not been only a Jewish concern. This is why this discussion is so valuable for me and I am looking forward to find some answers.
- [20:31]
A
Thank you, Anna Niegeland.
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C
Hello everyone and thank you so much for inviting me. Really. I don't have an interesting story how I got interested in Jewish culture and history and languages. I'm a Lithuanian and I can mostly share my experience of a Lithuanian educating other Lithuanians about Jewish heritage, which is a limited perspective, but nevertheless I can share it. And what attracted me to Jewish studies to working with Ivo documents was Lent I. You know, sometimes you just go about your life and find this and that and think, oh, that's interesting. That's interesting. I remember reading Shalom Alihan's translation and thought, wow, interesting. Then I saw Hebrew Alpha that and decided to learn it because I thought it looked cool. Many people do. And then I was learning languages at one point and wanted to learn a more synthetic language, more synthetic than Lithuanian or other Indo European languages. And I went to learn Hebrew with Lara Lempertiene, who is the head of the Judaica research department. And it was really interesting, very enlightening and amazing. And then what amazed me even more that later she invited me to join the Judaica Research Center. And since then I have been completely converted to Yiddish, so to say, because of the treasure of the archive that Jonathan was talking about. Tens of thousands of pages of documents, also completely different archive of Jewish books. But the documents that haven't been sorted out haven't been read before they were discovered in 2017, I think. And since then I have been working with the documents. The collection that I am mostly familiar with and I basically started with were the autobiographies of the Jewish youth in the interwar period. And maybe you know about this, but I won't go into details. There were autobiographies of young people 16 to 22 sent to Yevo contest and I started reading them when I just learned started learning Yiddish and it was so hard, the handwriting, the deciphering, the what they want to say and the idea. But when we start stepping end it was very, very touching because you see the experience that are so normal 100 years ago and a Guy is telling how he tried to impress a girl with his knowledge about Schopenhauer, but he hadn't read Schopenhauer, he only overheard the conversation and some other person talking about the first sexual experience. And they saying, oh, I felt very weak and tired afterwards. And I thought, wow, that is so like first love experience as conflicts with parents dreaming to go to the big city. And then you read it and, and think, wow, that's. That's what I was writing about in my diary. And then you realize that those people, the great majority of those people were killed during the Holocaust. And it was very strange experience, very strongly. It affected me very strongly. And this whole corpus is very interesting. And I think it is interesting to so many people around the world. Like, I talked about this in the Lithuanian national radio. The New Yorker published an article about it, talked about this in Limud, Stockholm just recently. And a cartoonist, Ken Grimstein, just published a book about it.
- [24:24]
B
So.
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C
But also I've been working with this collection for so long, but also with other parts of the collection, other parts of the archive. And then after a while you start to think, okay, this is obviously very valuable, but what about this receipt from a shop? What about this flyer of the Yiddish theater? Is it less valuable? I don't think it is. Is it this picture of some guy who applied to teachers teacher seminary, Jewish teacher seminary? Just a card, just a library card of a Jewish library. And this whole collection is so overwhelming, overwhelming. But you can't show it all. So you have to show it like piece by piece or find a perspective, how to present it. And that is what Judaica Research center does. We do educations, we do exhibitions, we participate in the evil project that Jonathan described. We unite the people, collections virtually. And okay, I can go on further about the challenges of education, but maybe I will come back to you during the next question.
- [25:32]
D
Good evening, dear Jonathan, dear colleagues. And I'm really happy to see so many participants at this discussion, at this discussion, so many people writing about their connections to Lithuania, about their little family roots. It's really amazing to be here and thank you for this occasion. Now, if I would have to describe the motives that draw me into Jewish studies and into Yiddish language and academic research. I would say that the main reason, the main motive was Vilna. There's a city was my patriotism, which I felt for that city, for the city where I live. During the last years of the Soviet regime and the first years of our independence. I was a young person, a young student looking for history of the space where I live, for the history which was previously suppressed, fragmented and largely unknown. And in order to understand the space where I lived, the space which I loved so much, in order to understand the beauty of that city, I quite, quite naturally, I came upon the Jewish topics. I came upon, upon, upon. First of all, my first impression was Yiddish inscriptions that still remained in the Old Town, in Vilnius, in the old courtyards. Being a teenager, I saw letters which I haven't seen before, and I was wondering, what kind of letters are they? Later I started reading translations from Yiddish poetry. My first poet read in Lithuanian translation was Abraham Sutzkever. And it affected me so strongly. The existential message from those poets written in the Vilna ghetto was so strong. But I immediately thought I would like to read this poet in original and maybe sometimes translated into Lithuanian as well. So this was entirely, I would say personal, emotional, not entirely rational. But it led me to join the first Yiddish class which started at vilnius University in 1998, taught by Professor Dovid Katz. I was one of the first students at these Yiddish courses. And later this path led me to Yiddish summer courses at Vilnius University, to Yiddish Studies and Jewish Studies at Oxford university. And in 2006, I came as an academic visitor to YIVO. So we have a great relationship with YIVO staff. Academic projects carried on already for more than 15 years. And I may say I have witnessed a change in the reception of Jewish culture in Lithuania, a progress that has happened during the past couple of decades, especially during the past decade, more or less since 2011. I would say that Jewish culture became not only the field of interest for a small minority in humanities, for a small Lithuanian minority, but also a trend in Lithuanian culture and a part of our Lithuanian cultural landscape. And this change was also attested by the grassroots initiatives of the Lithuanians themselves. Making projects for Holocaust commemoration, participating in the marches of the living, buying books, translations of Jewish literature, and being interested in Jewish heritage as the heritage which is close to them, which is actually part of the Lithuanian culture. And the Lithuanian culture cannot be imagined without this. So I think this is a significant change of our mentality. And although the problems and the obstacles which Anna mentioned, of course remain, and Lithuanian society still has many problems of a cultural memory and a new return of those old plagues of antisemitism. But still I think that Jewish culture, despite all these possible, all these problems, attention to Jewish culture, attest changes happening in the Lithuanian mentality. And I hope that this positive trend will prevail despite all the remaining problems, and will lead to new and very creative Jewish and Lithuanian interactions.
- [31:19]
A
Thank you. Let's hope, let's hope. I think part of the trend that you're mentioning is the publication of Passports and the work of Kestis Peculis, our next speaker.
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E
Oh, hello. Thank you, Jonathan. And I guess I represent a generation that think they know about the Lithuanian history, but in reality, probably not that many people know. And what's my connection with the subject is when I was still working on a password Volume two, I met. I was introduced to Irene Ve Said, whom you, whom you mentioned in the very beginning. And when I came back From England in 2011, I thought I was very patriotic, as most of the Lithuanians are, and I took pride in many things, especially, you know, basketball. But living in England, I realized that not that many people care about it. So I, so I went back into publishing. And when I met, I was, to cut the long story short, I was very embarrassed to learn that I know nothing about the Lithuanian Jewish history. And I was just silent there. And you know, she's a Holocaust survivor and she very patiently was telling me about all those horrific events. And when I was 30, 34, 35 at that time. And. And I guess what led me into working on the Pass for Journal Volume three, which is dedicated to the Lithuanian, Jewish, Lithuanian history is. Is out of curiosity, I guess first, because nobody spoke about it at school. Nobody, my parents never talked about it. Not that, you know, they, they were hiding something. But when I was doing the research for. It took me about two years, maybe close to two years to do the research. I found that without thousands and thousands of publications, I watched all the movies possible on Netflix, YouTube, all over the place. And what drew me into the subject again is that there is a big lack of engaging, not discussions nor material. But I did the research with my friends. I asked about maybe up to 50, 50 friends of mine, what they knew about the Jewish history in Lithuania. And the answer that I received, 90, maybe 4, 95% is stopped probably after two minutes. And it's not because people don't care. And you know, when I was working towards the subject further on, I realized that, you know, there's not that many. How should I put it, not publications, because I understand that not, not too many people read or don't have the time to read. And the Passport Journal is drafted in a way that it should engage people. And I believe in the, in the power of the storytelling. And this is the reason why, you know, the, the primary focus is on the stories and the, and the insights of people and their own experiences. But I don't want to go into too much detail, and I'm very happy that you know, this. This is not. This is a discussion. So, you know, I'd like to sort of stop here, probably, because, you know, it's almost an hour gone already,
- [35:03]
B
so.
- [35:04]
A
Yes, and you're quite right, obviously we're going to have to have another such conversation at some point, because there's so much to cover. But I'd like to start the conversation really with what I think a lot of people today feel is just kind of an irresolvable conflict at the heart of Jewish Lithuanian relations. And I'd like to hear your frank ideas about them. And it is so well expressed by Venslova in the article and passport to express regret over the Holocaust, to express honor and respect to the provisional Government at the same time as squaring the circle. So how do we deal with this? How do you understand this as an issue? How do you understand the fact that the Verblecki Library has in its collection some of the most precious remaining YIVO materials? And on the wall of the building there's a plaque to Jonas Mareika. And these two things clash. It seems irresolvable. Is it irresolvable? Is it something that education can solve? So I would like to start there and then see where we go.
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D
Yes, thank you. Of course there is a clash of different memory narratives, as historians quote. Thomas Venslower, whom you quote, tells it very simply. It's a clash between truth and lies, not between different narratives. And I think, and I think it is true. It is true. Really. Without the recognition and open dealing with effects openly, we cannot have a meaningful dialogue. One of the things changing the stereotypes, changing the closed, if not centric attitude, is testimonies. Testimonies that are authentic, that are written by the people who experienced the events of the Holocaust. Testimonies that can affect the public mentality. Very powerful. I did some work on bringing such testimonies to Lithuanian reader. One of those is the diary of Itzhak Rudaszewski that Jonathan just mentioned. A diary by 14, 15 year old boy written in the Vilna ghetto. And Rudzevsky is very clear about the role of the Lithuanian collaborators in the Vilna ghetto. He's very clear about. These horrific events, about the fear which he feels towards them, the Lithuanian collaborators, the police entering the ghetto. And at the same time it cannot be denied because this is an authentic testimony of a child. Nobody can deny this testimony. And the diary of Ritza Krubachevsky was included into the Lithuanian school curriculum. It's part of the Lithuanian school curriculum. And this is the basis of our education, the changing of our attitudes. Just recently, a couple of weeks ago, a Lithuanian Ministry of Education and the Lithuanian Jewish community donated 1,000 copies of Itzhak Khodoshevsky's diary for Lithuanian schools. Another such source is a diary and poetry by Matilda Olkinaiter. Her manuscripts were preserved by Professor Renew Seiter and were published a couple of years ago in Lithuanian and in English as well. The story is also very similar. A very talented young Lithuanian poet was killed by the Lithuanians themselves, by the Lithuanian white armbanders. So I think that these undeniable facts, undeniable testimonies help changing the attitudes. And although they see, as you told, these remaining contrasts and the antagonism in the public opinion, I think that this antagonism is going to. That these antagonistic attitudes are going to diminish the. The more people aware of the facts are in our society.
- [40:01]
A
So you believe in education?
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D
I believe in. A personal relation, personal empathy, which still really lacks among some of our politicians and parts of our society.
- [40:21]
A
Anna, how do you feel about that every time you walk past the Vrublevsky Library?
- [40:26]
B
I would say that Holocaust was the result of a violent ideology. So we are still very sensitive to the ideology that the state promotes. And these plagues and monuments, they are the language of this ideology. And I think that education is perceived in the right way when ideology is highly moral and this is what we have to achieve. And putting it into simple words, I can't make close friends with someone who underestimates Holocaust, who thinks that national independence is the highest value and human rights are not so important. I can't be close friends with someone who tells me, let's skip the topic of the Holocaust, because it's the past already, let's move forward. But I would like to be sure that he evaluates the events the same way that I evaluate that. And this can be possible only when the state, ideology and values will be highly humanistic. And I think that this is a process because Lithuania is a relatively young democracy and the Lithuanians as an ethnic group were struggling for their independence for many years. And now maybe this gained freedom is too emotionally overwhelming to be able to be already relaxed and to concentrate on the values. And it requires political and intellectual and emotional maturity to accept the truth, to accept the dark side. And it requires, or we are waiting for a politician who would be brave enough to take A stand and declare these high values when human rights are higher than ethnic independence.
- [42:52]
A
Nygla, how do you understand this? Thank you, Anna.
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C
Well, I agree with both people who. With both Anna and Mindobes. I think it's always a problem when a person is made a symbol. Not always a problem, but it creates a problem. So if Norika is made as a symbol for Lithuanians and they learn that he was not in fact a very good person, then there's a clash in the. There's a clash in the values. And the person doesn't want to work on themselves to realize that your heroes might not be actually heroes. And I agree with Mendo Gas that what is needed is education. And basically so many. I think that many people, especially people of my age, are really interested in Jewish culture. But there's of course, an exotifying intention, like people are interested in the Jewish culture because it's so mysterious, it's so strange, it's so different. But that's the first temples. And when they move past that temples, they can realize that it is real and interesting. And it was here, and some of it is still here. And there are many initiatives that to, I think, help it. Help to promote it a lot. I think one of the initiatives is names by Audra Giriote, my colleague. And the initiative is started years ago, I don't know, maybe seven years ago or something like that, to read the names of the Holocaust victims. And people change and they read the names, and every 10 minutes another person gets the. The list and they read the names. And it puts it so much in perspective, really. It puts a actual real understanding of what happens when you give someone a name. And I think also with regard to documents that we work with, if someone visits our center, like a Lithuanian who is interested, we can show them the documents and say, look how unprecedented it is. But they don't know the language. So I think another very important thing is translations. And that's very, I think, essential to spread the knowledge. And when you get to know the culture, it doesn't become an abstract thing to counteract another abstract thing. And that is why we can move
- [45:35]
A
forward, I think, and, and catch this. How do you feel about this?
- [45:42]
E
Yeah, it would be hard to disagree with anyone who, who just spoke. But I'd like to second to what Migla just said, because, you know, obviously education, you know, is. Is important. But, you know, education is a very broad term. And, you know, it's. It's. I just had a conversation a month ago with somebody who, who was Very convinced that, you know, the right education is being done in schools for, For. For the pupils and the students. And then, you know, I spoke to a couple of teachers and they say, like, well, it's on the list of, you know, things to learn. But, you know, it's sometimes the teachers themselves, you know, they don't have enough empathy or the knowledge about the subject. And I know I had a couple, quite a few, Quite a few lessons, you know, where I spoke about the Jewish heritage in Lithuanian. I could see that, you know, 50 pupils sitting in the class and all of them, you know, they have their heads, you know, bow down and, you know, they don't really know what, what the subject is about, which is, you know, is not an example to say that, you know, the whole Lithuania is like this. And so I think what's, what is the most important is probably the human touch and the personal. And the personal experience that you have. And, you know, I can only talk on my own experience. For example, you know, when I speak to my friends, I'm, as I said, you know, I'm ethnic Lithuanian. And you know, my friends, you know, when I started working on Passport Journal, they. I had a lot of eyebrows raised, asking why do I care? Why? Why is this important? And I think, you know, after. After publishing it, you know, I think this is very important just simply because there's a lot to learn. There's a lot to learn from Jewish culture, the way they raise kids, the kitchen, the food, many things you can go on and on and on. And I think the impact that we do personally and the initiatives that sometimes, and I wouldn't rely too much on the government or some politician because they have a career and they have their own plans. And, you know, you can just say that, you know, Lithuanian government is not. Or certain politicians are not strong enough on certain issues. But, you know, we can't influence that that much, as much as we would like to, I guess. But, you know, what we can do is work ourselves and develop a personal touch with, you know, in my, in my daily life is the readers. And, you know, I'm happy that, you know, my friends, you know, they know most of them, you know, about the, you know, all these plaques that we have, you know, and, and this is not something that, you know, we speak to a person and, you know, you're good to go for some person, you know, it takes five years to get the empathy and, you know, the realization about the painful truth. And, you know, I have quite a few friends who are in denial of what happened. And, you know, if I force them to know something, you know, obviously I'm not going to achieve anything. So I think it's all about the human touch. And, you know, this is all about, you know, education obviously is the key and it's a fact that nobody can deny. But, you know, it's how we instill the curiosity and how we teach our kids, you know, and it's a very, I mean, it's a very, very broad subject and, you know, so you can go probably the thousand ways forward and you know, as we spoke before in one of our conversations, you know, you have to, you have to get together and, you know, we have to have a long term plan and, you know, none of these things are gonna get solved if, if we look at them as, you know, if I read one article, I'm good to go and I, I know about everything. No, it's a process. You know, for me it was, it took me two years to read many books and, you know, as I said, many, watching many films and movies. But, you know, what struck me the most was, you know, it said this at the site where 5,000 Jews were killed. And this was, you know, and this taught me a lesson and, you know, simple thing. It took me a minute to understand, you know, all these issues that we're talking about. So education obviously is first, but how we go about it, I think this is the most important. You know, if we are aggressive about it, then, you know, I believe is no good.
- [50:36]
A
I'm sorry, we're running out of time. This could go on for quite some time. It's obvious. And I did want to reserve a little bit of time to the question of what is happening in Lithuania today that is positive, that is problematic. One of the things that I could say is that the Lithuanian government is translating the Yivo online museum, which is derived from the Vilna Collections project, into Lithuania for use in Lithuanian schools, which seems to me exactly, Kestis, the sort of thing that you're talking about. But I wonder if others could talk about and the translations that you've done and the translations of other books, those are also clearly positive signs. The first time I visited Vilnius, there were very few markers of Jewish life. Today there are many, including one to the Yivo Institute, which I'm very pleased to say, but I wonder what you see as hopeful.
- [51:53]
B
And Anna, maybe I would share my very positive experience while working with the project on the great Vilna Synagogue site, when we first decided to raise public awareness about the place where actually the Great synagogue was. And now, as you probably know, there is a typical Soviet kindergarten building standing there with no traces of the former Jewish life there. So in 2017 we decided to organize an international conference on that. And we were just amazed by the attention it got, both from outside, but from inside Lithuania as well. It was, you know, a wave of voluntary speakers and. And it project this virtual model of the synagogue. We had the mayor of Vilna coming. And half a year after the conference, the educational institution that was operating in that building was relocated to another place. And thus the excavations became possible, the wide excavations at this site. I would say that the attitude in Lithuania towards the Jewish culture is real, respectful and we enjoy that. And as I said after the Soviet time, remembering very well them, I very often cannot believe that situation is so favorable. So this is what we should use. And we are working on that. And many initiatives are joining. And I think that yes, education is very important, but ideally we would expect for the overwhelming values to be articulated constantly and clearly and for every generation.
- [54:03]
A
And we need leaders for that.
- [54:05]
B
Yes.
- [54:05]
A
And Nindaugis, your thoughts. And then I think we'll take as many questions from. From the viewers as we.
- [54:16]
D
Well, I would say that a very positive change was establishment of strong modern institutions for Jewish studies in the few year, such as the Judaical Research center at Masvidas Library, with modern archives, with educations exhibitions and so on. And now one of those changes which we still need, and I hope it is going to be realized in a couple of years, is a modern Holocaust museum in Vilnius, which unfortunately we still lack our Holocaust museum. Maybe somebody knows the old house where it is located. The so called greenhouse is already a relic of the past. And I was happy as a Minister of Culture to allocate funding for reconstruction of a former ghetto library in Vilna, in former Strashund Street. The ghetto resistance was. It was the center of the ghetto resistance to be transformed into the modern museum for Holocaust and Vilna ghetto in Lithuania. I think that such gaps must be filled and then this strong institutional network will appear. That change in the mentality will be even stronger.
- [55:49]
A
And for this there have to be strong leaders, leaders with that vision that Anna speaks of and are able to be inclusive, have inclusive values and open values. And that's a subject for another conversation. Right now we have a number of questions and let me just. I'll start at the beginning from Beverly Michaels. Do you think that Lithuanians reluctance to pick confront their actions during the Holocaust as explainable, not excusable, by their own suffering, destruction, deportations. During World War II, when I was in Vilnius in the 1990s, I felt there was a sort of competitive victimhood between Lithuanians and Jews regarding the war experience. Anybody want to try to answer that?
- [56:45]
D
I think this was really a case, this competition of traumatic experience and Lithuanians victimizing themselves mostly and not including memories of Jews or Poles or wethers. But I think that this kind of self image is also changing because simple facts that for example, Jews were also victims of the Soviet regime. Not only the Lithuanians, Jews there, among the prisoners in the labor camps and Soviet labor camps in Siberia, not only the ethnic Lithuanians, the entire elite of Lithuania was destroyed by the Soviet regime. So this helps understanding that Jews, they're also part of the same society, they were citizens of the same state. And the next sad fact is that during the Holocaust the Lithuanian authorities were not sensitive to Jewish suffering and even spread antisemitic propaganda. And it is a treason of their own citizens. So this thinking is trying to change in our public discourse and of course in our education. I think that this competition of victimization is lesser now in the Lithuanian mentality.
- [58:38]
A
Anyone else would like to add something? This is from Cheryl Colemus. Antisemitism is increasing in most countries today, especially in the US And I'm wondering what is the Lithuanian government doing to prevent growing antisemitism in Lithuania? If it is happening in function? Would you say antisemitism is growing or is not growing?
- [59:03]
B
I'm afraid to say that we do not feel antisemitism in everyday life. And also I would say that we can acknowledge proudly that the politics of the Lithuania today on the whole are not anti Semitic. The issue with the Holocaust, this is more complex. I wouldn't say that this is antisemitic, partly maybe for some people, but I would say that this is a social psychological problem that is connected to the young democracy. And as a rule every country has its heroic dominating narrative and it's really very difficult to overcome. This is the case with Lithuania as well. We are just waiting for stronger maturity, as I said.
- [60:04]
A
Nikla, do you have any thoughts?
- [60:07]
C
Well, it's hard for me to say because my viewpoint is very biased. I'm a Lithuanian and working with Jewish culture. So from the general interest of the public, I wouldn't say so. And I think even like people who would be like, you know, there are stereotypes and anecdotes and like older people sitting by the pier might share some anecdotes just without knowing any, any Jewish people At all. But I think now, now there's like less and less people are. I think, are less willing to express their. They're like anti Semitic stereotypes, even as a joke or something. I think in general people are becoming more sensitive. Either more sensitive or maybe we as a society, maybe optimistic, are becoming more mature in a way that we can think of a history and of relations between nationalities or cultures, not in terms. Not only in terms of who is good and who is bad and who is represented by who, but in a more nuanced way. At least I hope so. That's the case in my surroundings.
- [61:30]
A
So I have a question from Etty Zilber and I guess it's to everyone, which is, how do you respond to the fact that private entrepreneurs host parties, summer camps and rock concerts at the seventh Fort in Kaunas?
- [61:51]
D
This is shameful. This is shameful.
- [61:53]
A
Of course, I don't know what else there is to say about that. Kestis, do you know about that?
- [61:58]
E
No. Is that really the case?
- [62:00]
A
Well, Eti Zilber goes on. Details about the 7th, 4th, 1941 are in my parents testimonies, but I don't know if it is or not. This is what Eddie Zilber writes.
- [62:12]
E
Well, if it's true, it's disgusting.
- [62:15]
A
Yeah. Let's see. One question from Edward Block. Does Eebo collaborate with the Lost Shtetl Museum? We certainly will. We are not active collaborators at this point. But when they need materials from our archives we have some 250,000 photographs, a large proportion of which have to do with Lithuania. We certainly will make all of these materials available. Are there histories of yeshivas that are being done in Lithuania and also at Ibrah. Do you know anything about that? Mendakis Reason Yeshivas. Anna, do you know.
- [62:58]
B
Could you please repeat the question? I don't see.
- [63:02]
A
Do you know about histories of yeshivas that are being written and published in Lithuania?
- [63:10]
B
In Lithuania? You mean in the modern times? Yes, I'm not aware of that.
- [63:19]
A
There's another question. How many Jews live in Lithuania today?
- [63:23]
B
They say that around 3,000. Two of them are in Vilnius.
- [63:28]
A
So it's very small.
- [63:30]
B
It is a tiny community, you know,
- [63:32]
A
that raises the question. And it's been shrinking. I think around the time when I first came to Lithuania, it was about 5,000. Is it possible to change that? Is it possible for the Jewish community to grow rather than shrink? And I guess a lot of people would say, is that shrinking a sign of lack of optimism about the future?
- [63:59]
B
I think Lithuania could be. Could show a warm welcome to the global Jewish community. And then people would come as they come to Berlin. Now many young Jews are coming to Berlin. Lithuania is a civilized European country and very little needs to be done to show that warm welcome.
- [64:25]
A
In the US Much of this from Harry first, in the US Much of the discussion of antisemitism gets entwined with views toward Israel and the Israeli Palestinian conflict. Do you think there is any spillover of that in Lithuania? That people who protest Israel's policies for the Palestinians use that, that as a cover for deeper anti Semitic attitudes? Or could you talk a little bit about Lithuania's attitude toward Israel maybe if, if I may.
- [65:00]
C
It's a very personal opinion just from what my friends were talking about. I think like at least around me, the Lithuanian opinions about Israel are mostly positive because the many Lithuanians see contemporary Israel as similar to Lithuania in a way that it's a small country, relatively new and under threat. And I don't, I'm not saying those situations are comparable or should be compared but from what I gathered it's a more or less favorable opinion to the state of Israel. I not going to and that comment
- [65:40]
A
on that's what I, that's what I hear from others as well
- [65:46]
D
I might add politically, Lithuania is of course an ally of Israel, it's clearly declared. But there are some minor groups, radical groups who really developed some kinds of, of theories also touching upon the question of relations to Palestinians. However, in Lithuania they still remain really marginal because our public discourse is really directed towards good relations with the state of Israel and it prevails.
- [66:33]
A
Well, on that positive note, unfortunately I think we're going to have to end. We've already gone over but there is much need, it seems to me to have a follow up meeting event sometime in the not too distant future. I thank you all for participating. I thank all of my Lithuanian colleagues for making the yivo, the Edward Blank yivo, the Online Collections Project possible. And a special note to Lara Lempert who is the supervising archivist in Lithuania and I want to thank everyone for tuning in from all over the world. It was a pleasure and thank you all and will be. I hope to see you while it is.