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Joanna Siekiera, "International Law and Security in Indo-Pacific: Strategic Design for the Region" (Routledge, 2025)
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- [00:00]
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- [01:55]
Stephen Sikevich
Hello. Welcome to the New Books Network. I am your host, Stephen Sickevich. My Next guest is Dr. Ioana Shakira and we will be discussing her edited volume, International Law and Security in the Strategic Design for the Region, published by Rutledge in 2025. Dr. Ioanna Shakira is an expert in international law, a NATO consultant, trainer, and educator for the US Military. She currently works as Assistant professor at the War Studies University in Warsaw, Poland. She is also a fellow at the U.S. marine Corps University in Quantanaco and supports various military institutions as a legal assistant and course facilitator. She is a frequent guest on the New Books Network and this will be her third time appearing on the podcast. Dr. Ioanna Shakira, welcome to the New Books Network or I should say welcome back.
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Dr. Ioanna Shakira
Thank you very much. It is my utmost pleasure. Pleasure to be here back again with you guys, your audience.
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Stephen Sikevich
Yes, I think this is our third interview, correct? Yes. The first book was it was about the Indo Pacific region, but I think it was my impression was it was kind of more for a European audience. Then the second book was about the Marine Corps and its significance in military affairs and kind of the geopolitics of the 21st century. And then we got this book which from my impression and feel free to correct me, is this is kind of a more general audience, like why everyone should care about the Indo Pacific. Is that kind of a fair impression?
- [03:34]
Dr. Ioanna Shakira
Yes. Well, all my research is about promoting Indo Pacific, its relevance globally, not only for the region itself, not only for Euro Atlantic Zone, but depending where you are, it will sooner or later impact or affect your business, your government and your social affairs. So definitely this book I am very proud of because as we will be talking today, I gathered really strong team. We focus on in the Pacific from different perspective, different discipline. And I think it's really interesting piece of reading to everyone. As you mentioned, you don't have to be an expert in military or a professor of international relations to understand why it is important.
- [04:32]
Stephen Sikevich
Now, as you might remember from the previous interviews, we always like to ask our guests tell us a little bit about yourself, but in this case maybe remind our audience a little bit about yourself and what has changed since, you know, the last time we discuss this topic. And yes, definitely, check out our previous interviews. It'll help give wider context to our discussion today.
- [04:56]
Dr. Ioanna Shakira
Definitely, definitely. I'm very happy and honored to be here. I am Polish originally, but I'm never in Poland. I always travel. I. I am a researcher, international lawyer, educator, I train military. I'm a consultant in NATO. I was the fellow at Marine Corps University. The book you mentioned, our last interview was actually listed by the commandant of Marine Corps on his reading list. I'm very, very proud that he saw this importance of my work. So yes, I became also a fellow in Atlantic Council, also in. In the Pacific Research center in Melbourne. And soon I will become a fellow in another institution about this region too. So I'm diving deeper and deeper in the topic. I go around the world, preach about legal warfare so lawer my beloved topic for the US Army. So again, I love returning to your country to make a change.
- [06:15]
Stephen Sikevich
Very good. Now this is your 13th international book, correct?
- [06:21]
Dr. Ioanna Shakira
It is, it is.
- [06:22]
Stephen Sikevich
So it seems like gathering a lot of these international multidisciplinary teams. You just seem to be a natural at this. Was anything different with this book and trying to get the people together to get it like what was like the criteria that you suggested for.
- [06:43]
Dr. Ioanna Shakira
Yes, definitely. I love authenticity. I never interfere into my author's way of thinking or line of argumentation. I want them to be as authentic as possible. I prefer to get people who are perhaps less extreme experience in writing or research, but with enormous experience, people of passion, people who dare to ask even less comfortable questions. But I know that the outcome of their chapter will be very much insightful. It will be genuine, it will be authentic, as I said. And I agree with you that in this book I have more American authors. Of course, not all of them are Americans, but definitely we have also people from Asia, people from Europe who are not born in Europe, which all gives this special flavor that their mindset cultural is also different. And I think this is very valuable because as we can see in our, you know, bookstores, they all are made by American or European thinkers. So it's all in one direction going. While my book is. Is so diverse because I allow my authors to be as much as authentic. They are. I only slightly correct or edit their work, but I leave their authentic self.
- [08:22]
Stephen Sikevich
Now, would you be able to give like a quick introduction to some of the. To the authors and what their chapters are about? Because I know you often say you don't like to comment on other people's work, but can you just at least kind of summarize some of the arguments that they make for our listeners?
- [08:40]
Dr. Ioanna Shakira
Definitely. And thank you for that. Of course this book is available to be purchased, so definitely I will encourage you to check it either in a hard copy or ebook. And I am very proud that I have people again who possess academic titles, but also those who are military members, who are veterans, businessmen. I have two gentlemen who are originally born in China, but they live now in Germany and England and they talk about communism, how devastating the system is. And for me it's especially important because I myself, I devoted a lot of my time and effort in showing portraying how communism is dangerous. It is not how Western countries idealize communism, but to hear the arguments from true Chinese people. I think it has a lot of values. We have one gentleman living in Taiwan, so also his perspective is very valuable. We have two ladies from India, because the title again, Indo Pacific, we cannot talk, you know, about Indo Pacific without India. So also it's interesting to know their perspective. And last but not least, I have one author from Latin America because when we look at the map, Latin America is also part of Pacific, but is usually forgotten in the discussion. So I'm sure that either you prefer to read from COVID to cover or separately and depending on the topic you like, you will find something you appreciate the most. Either it is military security or water security or climate change or political changes.
- [10:49]
Stephen Sikevich
Now what is. Can you just give us a brief introduction? I know we've discussed this before, but what is the overall significance of the Indo Pacific region in the 21st century? And we're definitely going to get into more details about each element throughout the discussion, but can you just give us a brief introduction?
- [11:10]
Dr. Ioanna Shakira
Definitely I can. My pleasure. Ladies and gentlemen. Indo Pacific, this big enormous region containing two largest oceans is important not only because of demography, not only because of economy, but also because of logistics. Over there we see the crossings, the routes of maritime shipping, of aviation, both military and civilian trade, security, chain of supply, but also decision making. So politics. And when we talk about politics, me as an international lawyer, I will always underline the values. So what kind of values are presented by either hard laws or political decisions in that particular region, place on our Earth? Because yes, decision making headquarters like Washington or Brussels, they are super far from Indo Pacific, but they, they do correlate to what is happening in the Pacific. Because if we like or not, and our two opponents, largest opponents to our Judeo Christian civilization, are there being China and Russia.
- [12:35]
Stephen Sikevich
Yeah, that leads me into my next question, like why should like Europe, the Americas, including Latin America that you just mentioned, and even Africa, why should they be concerned about the Indo Pacific region? Even though in many cases they're a little bit, as you kind of mentioned, far away from that region.
- [12:56]
Dr. Ioanna Shakira
Exactly. We live in a global village for already some decades, everything is so core related. And then you mentioned Africa and guess what? I also have one gentleman from Africa writing about international law order, which again is established in the Pacific. And how does that relate to our systems of values, political decisions, the laws we passed? So definitely I am trying in this book, in my previous books, in all my lectures, but also through this interview and thank you Stephen for that. I can portray that the more we know about Indo Pacific, it's better, safer, cheaper for us in the long term because we cannot afford neutrality, we cannot afford just observing what is happening in Indo Pacific, because again, besides Russia and China, so our civilizational threats, we have also North Korea, definitely. We have problems with climate change and sea level rise in Oceania, we have migration around India, we have problems with borders and conflicts there. Not necessarily armed conflicts, but still neighborhood quarrels which might turn into armed conflict. And again, about Taiwan or South China Sea, US is really much focused on naval security. And this is good. But again, in order to prepare for the hypothetical war, we must understand the mindset. We must see that Asia and Oceania, they are simply different. Even though most of those countries, they are former colonies, they think different, they act different, their laws are different, their way of understanding the law. So my beloved legal culture is different. And I hope I embedded all of that in my book, ladies and gents.
- [15:11]
Stephen Sikevich
So it gets into like a lot of different multiple dimensions here, because you've even brought up like civilizational dimension quite a bit. Because also India and China at the very least. And then Russia, you know, they even kind of consider themselves distinct civilizations, opposed to the. As a. In contrast to the West. But then you also have Australia, which is a western country. And it's this kind of interest, it's kind of a very, how to put it, like a very multidimensional aspect to this, which is big.
- [15:47]
Dr. Ioanna Shakira
Yeah, totally. And I think this is just a follow up of our previous discussion, Stephen, that for example, Europa Theater, Polska. We are actively participating in discussions, lectures, to dig in even further to understand the mindset. Because what I can observe, and I know that you agree with me, that we tend to live with this false idea that if we think one way, that everyone else does the same, but absolutely not. And what we stand for in our civilization, our Western values, they are in opposition to some other state values, like Communist party in China or presidential and government in Russia, but also in North Korea. So this mindset, but also India, as you said, India is neutral, but to which extent or for how long? So in our own interest is to be there to keep our finger on the support faults, how Indo Pacific is evolving, where China is closely collaborating with those tiny little islands Oceania states. Because again, like in nature, the same in international relations. There is no place for a vacuum. So we must bear in mind that fact.
- [17:19]
Stephen Sikevich
Yeah, it gets back to that famous quote from Alexander Wendt. Anarchy is what you make of, is what states make of it in this case. And that's going to be true in the Indo Pacific, correct?
- [17:32]
Dr. Ioanna Shakira
Definitely, definitely. So we cannot be ignorant, we cannot say, no, it's far away, we don't have anything to do with that? Because, well, guess what? China is also far, but they are already in Europe in our strategic systems infrastructure. So it's all about changing the mindset. As you had it pivoted towards Asia, but now we extended that to Indo Pacific.
- [18:00]
Stephen Sikevich
Now there are a lot of different players and a lot of different actors in the Indo Pacific region. But let's kind of start off with some of the major powers, the major players. And of course, the number one, of course would be the United States, which they have their major fleet in the Pacific region. And so far. Could you just tell us the role the US plays in the Pacific?
- [18:25]
Dr. Ioanna Shakira
Definitely, and I really hope it will be bigger because very often I encounter some counter arguments that why us there? Blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, well, if US is not there, then guess what? Who is there? China. So I often like to tease my students when they tell me that that's why Americans are there. And I was like, well, if I were to choose to be under which occupation, American or Chinese? Well, the answer is simple, right? I will go for freedom. And for you Americans, freedom is everything. Freedom of speech, like we have now, freedom of religion, freedom of communication, freedom of navigation, and therefore freedom of trade. We observe that especially with Houthis in Yemen. So terrorist organization US is being targeted there. But the, the way you might ask again, why US is even there, is like, exactly to protect this freedom of navigation. Because just like in Panama, that next to channel, the Chinese are building another own, their own channel. This is dangerous. That's why US is back in Panama. So after two decades of absence, where US troops were obviously in Iraq and Afghanistan, you guys are back in Oceania. Plates too little maybe, but I hope still something can be done because I've been, as you know, myself in Oceania. I've been sailing there on those islands I visited. Of course, not all of them, but I, I have this general idea that the poverty is so, so high that you don't have to, you know, write crap that much. Just that you can give some small dollars, for example, Solomon island politicians, and they would let in everyone that is Chinese. And when Americans enter, they offer freedom. So again, the mentality, the mentality is different. They. They need something substantial, they need something material. And Chinese are very good at that. We Westerners, we have our values which are intangible. But how to sell those values? If those countries, they are poor, they don't deal well with law. For them, law, legal system is something imposed by white people. So why would they follow law or legal institutions since they Think it is imposed. This is a detrimental. And this is what I also in last chapter myself, I wrote it. Why it's hard for Oceania countries to combat climate change because for them they don't have such legal metrics those measures how we do tackle problems.
- [21:14]
Stephen Sikevich
Yeah, it. So is China kind of able to exploit like the colonial legacy? Like oh well, you know, the Americans and the Europeans, they're the white people who oppressed you in the past. Whereas with us, well, we got, you know, they'll probably play up like the opium wars. It's like well, hey, we.
- [21:35]
Dr. Ioanna Shakira
Oh yes, 100%. When I was in Fiji, old staff, you know, hotels, restaurants, they were Chinese. So they know how to maneuver. They know how to use racial cards saying that hey, we are not white, so we understand you. Which of course has nothing to do with rational economy and being a good person. But they strike where hits the most. As I like to say, they know how to sell things which are not necessarily needed, but they will exactly unwrap it in this post colonial fight. But instead they are giving neo colonialism with communism, with you know, state ownership, with lack of freedom, with possible tortures of political opponents and so on and so forth. So those poor countries, they don't know Chinese rhetorics, tactics and they swallow it. They think it's just like, you know, it's sweet poison, but it's poison at the end. So I think it is our moral and legal duty to prevent that to do something before it's too late.
- [22:52]
Stephen Sikevich
Now you talked a lot about China, so let's move on to India, which you have mentioned before. And India, even going back to independence, it was kind of a major balancing act between the Soviet Union and the United States. But it's kind of still doing or something comparable to that in the dynamics of the Indo Pacific geopolitics. Would you say that?
- [23:18]
Dr. Ioanna Shakira
Yes, definitely. So India, or Bara as they like to call themselves now, I like to say that they will very soon be fed with only Balancer title. Now they are called Balancer between West and east, rich, north and poor, south or brics. But I think that they have bigger appetite. I will just remind the audience, in 2022 they became the most populous state globally. It is not anymore China that has the largest population. It is India itself. India has a large navy, large army, but yet they don't belong to our Western civilization family. They have internal problems, they have problems with their neighbors, they have problems with freedom of religion, they have problems with freedom of speech. Yes, there is a level of corruption and Home violence, especially against women and girls, we must say out loud about that. But on the other hand, we do need India because if we will not, you know, hug India, India would not have any problems with being hugged by China. So in our own sole interest is to be close to India, maybe even to influence their politics as as far as we can. Because the same in Europe, in NATO with Turkey. Turkish. Right. Turkish partner, formerly known Turkey, but they also want to be called Turkey. We have them in NATO and it's good because also they are not Western civilization. Well, Islam is not as imposed like in other Arabic countries. Still, it's the. A major religion. Right. So still for Turkey, it's easier to balance between west and east, just like with India. But still in our benefit is to keep them closer.
- [25:33]
Stephen Sikevich
Now, India and China have not always gotten along. Is there still a little bit of that tension or are they kind of getting close? Are they getting closer? Because you mentioned if we don't embrace India, then they're. They're going to go towards the Chinese.
- [25:47]
Dr. Ioanna Shakira
Yes. So this is very hot and cold relation. They often meet, but that does not stop them from fighting. And again, me, as, as I told you, you know that I love legal warfare. Their armies last year, they were fighting with stick and stones, guys. Stick and stone, not armor, not, you know, heavy weapon. Not to be accused as being aggressor, perpetrator. So two largest, you know, armies, they were fighting using such tools. Because if you look on the map, there are at least eight points of confusion conflict when it comes to exactly delineating correct border between India and China. But when we don't know what is it all about? It's all about money and resources, assets, coal, but also people migrating business so they don't like each other, but they somehow have to link live along not only as neighbors, but also economic partners.
- [27:02]
Stephen Sikevich
So you think that kind of creates an opportunity for the west to at least kind of build more, more positive influence with.
- [27:09]
Dr. Ioanna Shakira
That's my goal. That's. I think that would be. Yeah. So good. So good. So good.
- [27:17]
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- [28:12]
Stephen Sikevich
Yeah. Which again, just kind of adds new dimensions. Like now we got legal warfare, we got conventional warfare, and then we got sticks and stones. The, the fourth war, as Einstein called. Yes. And then another, although it doesn't get as much attention in the Indo Pacific region, but also Russia plays a role in the region. In the region. Could you just tell us a little bit how the significance of Russia in this dynamic?
- [28:43]
Dr. Ioanna Shakira
This definitely. And for our audience, there is one chapter written by a lady from South Korea and she write about communist trio of Russia, North Korea, China, because again, Russia maybe is not that present in Indo Pacific or in Oceania. Still, the influence is huge. It's huge through weaponry, through people, through, as we all know, mercenary groups or ownership of ships, private and public, sailing across in the Pacific. So I would say that Russians, again, they are smart. We don't like to say that they are smart, but they are truly smart because they are manipulating the existing legal norms, private international law, how to lease shift, how to take away their ownership. But on the other hand, to be still, you know, present in, in the Pacific. So. Exactly. We might must be mindful that when we talk about China, there will be always Russia at the back door.
- [29:59]
Stephen Sikevich
I like that point you made about how the Russians are a lot smarter than we think. And I think especially in American culture, there is this tendency to always underestimate them. And I like how Michael Kaufman, who studies the Russian military, he said it, The Russians aren't 10ft tall, but neither are they 4ft tall. So it's like you don't want to overestimate them, but you don't want to underestimate them because even if we go into the war in Ukraine, they are proving more resilient than what we originally thought. So are the Ukrainians, of course. But there was always this narrative that, oh, the Russian military was just going to fall apart or the regime was just going to fall apart. And it's like, well, they're proven a little bit more, more resilient. And we can even look at their history. I mean, we can even look at World War II, how they withstood that and so forth. Now, there were other factors that contributed to that. But again, we. It's important not to underestimate them because definitely 100%.
- [31:03]
Dr. Ioanna Shakira
And I'm, I'm very happy that you mentioned that. You know, that I, I value a lot. But again, it's still a majority in America. I would think that way. We like, even in Europe, we like to laugh at the Russians and at some. Well, I will say that loud, stupid people, uneducated people and, and guess what? Maybe partially it is true, but they still possess the largest country on this planet. Russia is the largest. They have the largest natural resources and they have a lot of influence. We like to think that we, or our way of thinking is in majority. But no, when we look at General assembly of United nations, how countries in Africa, in South America, in Asia, they vote, they would not be against Russia. Absolutely not. They restrained because they think, well, either our population is speaking Russian or we have, you know, Russia is the largest economic partner or we have a lot of private investors, slash businessmen slash oligarch from Russia in our country, Argentina, Brazil, all the same lot of Russian people. So, so exactly. Russia is huge partner. We, America, Europe, we like to laugh at them. But as you mentioned, war in Ukraine, guess what, guys, it's still going. Russians are still delivering their troops.
- [32:33]
Stephen Sikevich
Yes. And even getting back to India. India has been getting a lot of cheap oil from Russia. So they've been benefiting from, from it. So it's like they're not. Because there was always a common saying, and maybe you heard it, dealing with the US Military was, oh, Russia's just a large gas station with nukes. Okay, but one, it still has nukes, and two, those natural resources are a.
- [32:59]
Dr. Ioanna Shakira
Very major asset in its, in its major asset, 100%. I said it last week at Polish national television when journalist asked me, by the way, he's from America, US and he asked me, oh, how about sanctions on Russia? And I just laugh. I just laughed because our sanctions, they don't work. As you mentioned, Russia had other clients, other partners. And guess what, like now Europe is buying gas from Kazakhstan, but Kazakhstan doesn't have its own gas. Where does the Kazakhstan gas come from?
- [33:34]
Stephen Sikevich
Yeah. So yeah, I don't want to derail the discussion too much, but it's just, but, but this is kind of an important part of the discussion on the Indo Pacific. It's like you can't underestimate your opponents. You know, you don't want to overestimate them, but don't underestimate them. They're not stupid. They, they kind of under, they try to understand us, but we don't try to understand them. And that's kind of to our detriment.
- [34:01]
Dr. Ioanna Shakira
I would say definitely yes. This is what I always teach my military students, either in here, NATO, Europe or back in the. Say that you must start thinking like the perpetrator, like the war criminal. And then you will think how to get your goal, how to achieve your strategic or military goal. Because if you think like us, you will never understand the tools, the mentality of oppressions, Chinese terrorist groups. Yeah, it's not pleasant to finally, you know, feel like you have the skin of a villain. But we must stop being naive because yes, we talk about in the Pacific, but as we said, this is all so much correlated. The world we live in, whatever is happening in Australia, for example, shifting from its closest neighbor being New Zealand to China, even though they disagree politically, but they became so close economically, it impacts the market in Europe, in the States. So we must be aware of all those tiny little details.
- [35:14]
Stephen Sikevich
I think it was Colonist Gray who termed this strategic empathy. You know, you're trying to understand the opponent for strategic purposes. It's not because you're sympathizing with him. And I think sometimes we, we mistake those two, that empathy and sympathy are not the same thing.
- [35:32]
Dr. Ioanna Shakira
That's another topic, I think, for, for your future webinar, I believe.
- [35:38]
Stephen Sikevich
Yes, that would be a very interesting topic. Anyways. And yeah, there's so many different nuances. We definitely could get on to this. I could even get into how China, they study Sun Tzu and Clausewitz. But somehow in the west, we like to somehow think that Sun Tzu and Clausewitz are like mutually exclusive. And it's like no, and that's like a whole nother topic. But anyways, yeah, so international relations as a field is usually centered around power, power understood like in the hard sense, as we usually call it, you know, military power and political power. But you, throughout the book you talk about multi dimensional competition and cooperation in the Indo Pacific. Now we actually have touched on different aspects of this to the point that you could potentially be, as we say in English or American slang, frenemies between.
- [36:41]
Dr. Ioanna Shakira
Frenemies. Correct.
- [36:42]
Stephen Sikevich
Frenemies between India and China to the point that they cooperate on some levels, but then at the same time they're throwing, you know, stones through each other's windows.
- [36:53]
Dr. Ioanna Shakira
Correct. That, that, that is the truth. And to be honest, I wanted my book to start from, from this competition and cooperation. But when I discussed that with the roof ledge, so it's a British publisher, they said, well, maybe not, maybe not, because that's misleading. How can you cooperate and compete at the same Time, and voila. This is what they are doing in the Pacific. Of course, not only then, because US is the same, European Union is the same. But again, in. In the Pacific, we have whole mixture of different values, different history, legal history, legal culture, work culture, access to, military. Because again, to remind you guys, some of the islands in the Pacific, they don't have their armed forces. They have only police forces, so. Exactly. A lot to talk about. Again, I warmly recommend you to get the book and familiarize yourself with so many dimensions of cooperation and competition.
- [38:03]
Stephen Sikevich
Yeah. What you were talking about with cooperation and competition at the same time reminded me of this one book that was written 10 years ago, Noah Feldman, where he talked about not a cold war between the United States and China, but a cool war where in some ways we're competing, but also at the same time, we need each other. You know, China needs the United States economically, and then vice versa. So it's. So it's kind of interesting, that dynamic here where you have almost two, what you would normally think as mutually exclusive dynamics, but yet at the same time, they're happening at the same time. So I think it's just. It kind of just adds a nice. It's an interesting nuance to the picture, I would say.
- [38:50]
Dr. Ioanna Shakira
Yeah, nothing to add here. I agree with you 100%.
- [38:54]
Stephen Sikevich
Now, you've been, we've been talking about international. You're an international lawyer, so you deal with international law across the globe. So what role has international law have in the Indo Pacific? Now you did talk a little bit about this, like how some, some of the cultures or some of the states in the region, they have a little bit of a different understanding of that concept or sometimes even trouble understanding that concept. Can you expand on this?
- [39:24]
Dr. Ioanna Shakira
Yes. And here the example will be my own chapter about Pacific Island Forum. So international organization, I would not say just as European Union, but for the audience to imagine that those states, they created this organization and they were debating how to stop, prevent, tackle legal consequences of ocean change, because it's dramatic for those people what they would do without territory. Would they still be called as independent states or would they be moved elsewhere? And so instead of waiting for United nations to do something, and just to let you know that there is still no hard law, so treaty convention about climate change, the state decided to do something for themselves on their behalf. They acted regionally. So this is very interesting from international law point of view, that countries, they feel better in cooperating regionally than globally, because we might hate our neighbors, but still they are historically closer than Somebody from across the globe having different natural resources, different religion or philosophy system. So lot of unpack to unpack in international law, which still is forgotten, omitted in many analyzes of international law, sorry, of in the Pacific. And therefore me, I always put this international law. Everywhere I go, there is international law. Not only hard economy, not only military force, but also international law.
- [41:11]
Stephen Sikevich
Yeah. This reminds me of a story I heard with some researchers in complexity. But they were talking about an incident. It was in. It was in Africa where they were dealing with. This one village was dealing with, you know, polluted water. So of course, a lot of these Western experts, they were coming in there and they were trying to, you know, clean up the water. But then they asked the villagers, like, what was their main concern? And they said, well, yeah, of course we want clean water. But their main concern was actually was how was this negatively affecting, like the cohesion of their village, like how the people relate to each other. And it was just kind of interesting because it highlighted how sometimes people from different backgrounds can have different culture, cultural understanding of the same phenomena. And do you notice a similar dynamic to this in the Indo Pacific region in your research?
- [42:06]
Dr. Ioanna Shakira
Definitely. Definitely, yes. Especially again, with money. So donation or infrastructure building. When I was in Palau, I could see enormous flags of either Japan or, or South Korea or the US Itself. Who built what, who gave money for what, who found it, what was it? Private institution, NGO or igo? So then when you walk to your work or to school every day and you see this enormous Japanese flag, you think like, okay, so then Japanese are good because they come here and give their own money. Right. So this is something which is, yes, valuable. But what Chinese do they buy? Ambulance. What is more important, this big flag or this ambulance or, you know, water retention center or whatever like this, that you use it every day. So that's another thing that we should think more when we want to help, because very often humanitarian activists, they might destroy all the system. And, and for military audience, they would agree that wide berates are not necessarily, you know, good because they have good intentions, but they might destroy the whole military action.
- [43:24]
Stephen Sikevich
And we get onto your specialty of legal warfare or lawfare. And how is lawfare kind of subverting international law in the Indo Pacific region? And what are the challenges associated with that?
- [43:40]
Dr. Ioanna Shakira
A lot of challenges. We have two ladies from Philippines in my book, just to remind you, 2016 Permanent Court issued a statement judgment arbitration courts issued a judgment that South China see is not that Chinese. And those countries, the. The line is internationally law, internationally recognized and it belongs to the Philippines. But again, China never accepted that judgment. I was in Manila this summer in a panel next to judge from Philippines and he mentioned that well, law, international law is winning. And me being me, I was like, sir, with all due respect, international law is losing. I disagree. Yes, you won the legal battle. But guess what? Chinese, the coast guard, they are using water cannons, they are threatening your fishermen. They even that week when I was there mid September, one of the fishermen lost his pardon my ignorance, hand or finger because of Chinese. So how far we will go to admit that, okay, so what international law is there, but because of legal warfare, so misusing international law mechanisms, institutions, we are not there. Anyhow, Chinese and Russians, they master legal warfare. They know how to maneuver, they know how to take away with any kind of responsibility. And we are still nothing, no, nothing is done. And this is something I am working on, I promise. Preach passionately as you can hear.
- [45:36]
Stephen Sikevich
Yeah, this even gets back to your one point about how some of the states or the groups in the Indo Pacific, they're trying to work more regionally. Is this rather than internationally? Is this kind of also another factor that's kind of undermining or could undermine international law, the legitimacy of it in the region?
- [45:56]
Dr. Ioanna Shakira
Yes, I think that after this boom of globalism or globalization, countries decided, well, maybe like between Bolivia and Bulgaria, there are not so many, you know, common things. So maybe it's better to work within our own regions or like minded partners in instead of imposing something with this crazy motto, one size fits all, which of course it does not. So I worked, still pushing. So I would say that yes, Indo Pacific again, it's not, you know, United region is not the same all over. Yet we, we must understand that it's anyhow close to our Euro Atlantic Zone.
- [46:44]
Stephen Sikevich
That kind of reminds me of a story I heard talking about globalization and a little bit of the one size fits all model were I think it was in Indonesia or they sent like an expert, I think it was the IMF if I remember correctly. It was one of those NGO organizations, but they actually sent like an economic expert to Indonesia to help with their economy. So he was good at making all these economic models, but then he didn't know anything about the history or culture of Indonesia. So it was like, well, okay, well how are you going to just help with the economy if you don't really bother to know about the history and culture of the, of the region that you're going to be doing this in?
- [47:28]
Dr. Ioanna Shakira
Definitely. And this is why I pick my authors from People who are passionate about the region, who either have been living there or work there or research there, or preferably all of them. Because if you don't know the, the area, the mindset, the people, how can you analyze the law or politics or military decisions? You will not be given to see it in the whole spectrum. You will see it only this, this, this. But then, you know, you and I could sit down and write about, I don't know, Zimbabwe and I don't think that would be deep in context.
- [48:05]
Stephen Sikevich
Exactly. So again this kind of adds to the multidimensional aspect of the region and also just how power, legal, lawfare and all that operates that we've been talking about not only in this discussion but in almost all of our discussions.
- [48:21]
Dr. Ioanna Shakira
Correct.
- [48:22]
Stephen Sikevich
And so now we get more to the military and security challenges. What are some of the major ones that you see now we have mentioned of course we mentioned sticks and stones. We as a. Apparently that's a major security threat now in the region. But whether, but what are some of the major ones? Because of course we know China and India, they both have major militaries. The Russians are also at least through like their proxy groups like Wagner and other groups are at least being present in the region in that capacity as what we would call private military contractors or mercenaries to. In that sense. But what are they in your view?
- [49:09]
Dr. Ioanna Shakira
Yes, a lot of it. I I would just name a few American presence almost everywhere in Oceania up but 2019 a big wake up when Beijing signed a military pact with Konyara so capital of Solomon Islands to build up a naval base. And again everyone was saying oh this is to invade Taiwan because across Oceania there is no naval to military base of China. But for me it's like ah, not only that, not only that it is to prevent or pacify protests against Chinese party across Oceania. Because just as I told you in New Zealand, but also Fiji and other islands there is a, a large minority of Chinese still growing, growing, growing, growing. So there will be some social or economic, you know, problems with, with Chinese and then in, in China you have no right to protest. But on the other hand people would. I'm. I'm sure at some stage they will be tired with, with Chinese interference and their a way of dealing tackle problems. Right. There is absolutely no place for arguments. So, so this is a big wake up call. Another is building of a big navy, a Chinese navy which I am said to say it is now larger than American navy which used to be the largest on the planet. So this is another threat we Have Taiwan. And again, I send you guys to, to the article, sorry, the chapter written by my good friend who lives in Taiwan. And, and not only that we are expecting the, you know, classical conventional war in Taiwan Strait, but how about hybrid? How about all those malicious tactics, including legal warfare? So all of that, we must consider everyone at the same time.
- [51:27]
Stephen Sikevich
Now you have mentioned, and we have mentioned that you worked as a consultant for NATO for, what was it, four years, you said?
- [51:36]
Dr. Ioanna Shakira
Yes.
- [51:37]
Stephen Sikevich
Is the alliance prepared for these types of military and security challenges, in your view?
- [51:45]
Dr. Ioanna Shakira
I wish I could be more positive about that. But what I can observe that only recently in the Pacific and China were even mentioned openly in NATO documents. 2022 strategic design. China is being mentioned for the first time, as we all know, NATO was established like, as a counter power to a Soviet Union. So China was never like officially there, but now China. It is of course, because of American flag officers who are pushing, okay, you don't have to see China as a threat like we do, but at least put there the strategic concept. So China is there not yet as a threat. And also with legal warfare, there is a document three pager about legal warfare undertaken by NATO. And one of the recommendations, and I always laugh, but unfortunately this is harsh truth, that NATO recommend issuing a brochure, a gazette, and I'm always like, how on earth Xi Jinping and Vladimir Putin, you know, can be stopped because of this gazette. We don't have actually idea how to counter legal warfare in NATO. We are hopeless. Sorry for being that drama thick, but this is the truth.
- [53:12]
Stephen Sikevich
Yeah. And then getting to another dimension of this multidimensional picture is the significance of what you like to call ocean change, which was a theme of your postdoctoral research. And how is this affecting the dynamics of the geopolitics of the Indo Pacific region?
- [53:31]
Dr. Ioanna Shakira
Very good question. Because we in Europe or the States, we don't see ocean change. We talk about climate change, of course, because, yes, we have oceans, we have our coastlines, but we don't see that that might dramatically change the area of our territory like it is happening nowadays in Oceania. And again, if there is a problem, who will get the benefit of it? China. China is stepping in. China is trying to provide security assistance or critical infrastructure, supply, chain of supply, methods and institutions. So unfortunately, even with such unfortunate phenomenon being ocean change, Chinese are ahead of us. We as the Western world, we cannot deliver legal solution. We don't want to deliver political solution, because that would be another burden on our shoulders. But Chinese, somehow, they know how to get in, how to suggest their own solutions. And those poor countries, underdeveloped countries, they say yes, the way, the way to China.
- [54:53]
Stephen Sikevich
Now, of course, we've been talking about a lot of the great powers in this region, but of course we also have to take into account that the smaller countries and microstates in this region, they have their own agendas, they have their own agency. And how are they addressing some of these security concerns, including ocean change, if you wish to address that issue?
- [55:13]
Dr. Ioanna Shakira
Very much so. Their way of tackling problems is different than ours. In our legal culture, we like to sit down, we like to. To write some treaties, bills, sign them and rat fight. So incorporate to our internal legal systems in Oceania, because of the imposed law. Still, they don't see it that way. Yes, they, they are obliged by international law. They are members of various regional or international organizations. But still the, the main thinking how to tackle problems problem is very much on gentlemen's agreement. So oral arguments, is that working? Maybe internally, yes, but when we talk about things across the region, not anymore. Because the problems, they are not inherent in the region. They are the consequence of bigger countries. So superpowers like China, US Great Britain. So again, maybe the audience is not seeing now what I mean, but if you check out the book, when you will read it the same time, looking on the map of Oceania, you will finally start to connect the dots that where one island is located, where is another, where is the closest island, American base or Chinese base, how close, you know, Taiwan and Taiwanese straight is. How does that mean to, you know, supply, to change the logistics, all of that. And then you start to say, oh, yeah, okay, now I see the problem now.
- [57:02]
Stephen Sikevich
How are they reacting to some of the major powers? You did just touch on this, like the United States. How are they reacting to the United States, China, India and Russia when they try to get into the region? Because we don't want to portray them as like helpless pawns. They, they can follow their own agendas. But also at the same time, they can't just ignore the great powers in the region either.
- [57:24]
Dr. Ioanna Shakira
Definitely. And they don't state like, like we do, that there are good, good guys. So US Western world and bad guys. So communist regime, China, Russia, North Korea, Venezuela plus terrorist groups. They see them rather as opportunities who will come and who will give more. So therefore it's, it's very dangerous because they might even swallow communism at the promise of, you know, having some stability for the next decade.
- [58:00]
Stephen Sikevich
Kind of even goes back to the old Cold War, where they said, well, you'll get communism but you know, you'll get your independence and freedom from the colonial powers.
- [58:08]
Dr. Ioanna Shakira
Definitely. And this is what China is offering at the moment. Totally, yeah.
- [58:15]
Stephen Sikevich
Now, do you think that NATO should. And if. Yes. How should the alliance address these security concerns in the Indo Pacific region, in your view?
- [58:25]
Dr. Ioanna Shakira
I think we should because. Exactly. My, my book, Strategic Design for the Region is the title that we should not only talk about the current threat, but to shape the future for our own benefit. Because if anything happens in, in the Pacific here, I mean, either an invasion of, you know, Taiwan or, or naval fight between China and Philippines, which again, I don't think will happen. Chinese are not stupid. They will use other threat or cohesion like economic energetic. But then we must talk about in the Pacific that it is important, not only us, Europe centrics, you know, minding that only Europe is the center of the globe. It is not. It is. Has, has not been for so many years, decade I would say. But we still think it is. So, so talking and making decisions and maybe pursuing laws like strategic design, putting China there finally. But again, even Poland, my country, does not have Indo Pacific strategy. So what are we talking about? We're still left behind.
- [59:40]
Stephen Sikevich
Yeah. And expanding on that. Since you're Polish, you're based in Europe as a European. Is Europe even taking the Indo Pacific region seriously or what can it do more to take it seriously, if not.
- [59:55]
Dr. Ioanna Shakira
No. Whenever I remember when I was still doctoral student in New Zealand and when I was mentioning what I am doing to my fellow Europeans, they're like, you're doing what in the what? Like why what? So, so people are like, like Tonga, Tuvalu, what is it? What is it like? Why should I bother? And, and again, it's not that much about each particular island or islet even, but about the region. The region with its geostrategic importance, as we mentioned before, logistics, all the chain of supplies, trade, maritime security. This is important, but it is not seen yet. Yes, there are some researchers, there are some even think tanks in Europe, but to the general audience, no, they all focus on Russia, on war in Ukraine, and they don't see China as a threat anyhow, which again is only good for China, because the party can do whatever they want and they will not be even seen as a threat.
- [61:09]
Stephen Sikevich
Yeah, and it's kind of interesting because even in America, when I was trying to do research on Russia, everyone was like saying, well, why the Cold War is over, they're kind of polarity is gone.
- [61:21]
Dr. Ioanna Shakira
Exactly.
- [61:21]
Stephen Sikevich
Yeah, they're irrelevant. But it kind of gets back to Our previous discussion about how we keep underestimating them. And it's like, well, how much more proof do you need that Russia is still relevant on. On the world stage? And yet they still want to, like, cancel their Russian programs. But then they want to. But then they wonder why they can't understand why Putin's doing what he's doing. Well, if you even bother to learn the language or learn the culture, that. How, you know, this is. This. This hurts us, you know, and it's just, you got to take this stuff seriously. And I think. And maybe you agree with me. It's just for so long, we haven't really. We kind of got spoiled by the end of the Cold War that we thought, oh, well, we don't really have to think seriously about anything anymore. And it's like, no, you still do. And history. Yeah, history did not ended, as Fukiyama said. And it's like, well, you know, history has full of surprises. And that's definitely going to be true in the 21st century.
- [62:22]
Dr. Ioanna Shakira
Definitely. Yes. Freedom is not given forever. We must always be attentive and fight for freedom. Yes.
- [62:30]
Stephen Sikevich
Well, this has been a very fascinating discussion. It's always nice. We always seem to bounce ideas off each other, so. Well, indeed.
- [62:37]
Dr. Ioanna Shakira
Stefan, thank you.
- [62:38]
Stephen Sikevich
Yes. But do you have any thoughts? Maybe add anything or is there anything in the book that we didn't cover? Or is there any topic you would like to just address?
- [62:47]
Dr. Ioanna Shakira
I think one of my favorite chapters in the book is about cultural dimensions. Exactly. That Oceania lays between west and east, but also between past and future. A lot of colonial influence, a lot of fears, what future holds. So I strongly recommend all of you to purchase the book, read it at your own pace, but also looking in the map, because I think looking at the map will help you understand who is playing with whom against whom, and why. What are they having in their, you know, islands or territories? Because then you will understand the decision made politically, legally, and military.
- [63:40]
Stephen Sikevich
Very good. And as you may know, we always like to end our discussions by asking our guests, what are you lurking on now? And you're almost always working on something, I notice.
- [63:50]
Dr. Ioanna Shakira
Yeah, you. You know me. Exactly. I am working as saints. Commandant of the Marine Corps has chosen my. My book in the category of innovation. I decided to launch another Marine Corps project. So, yes, I am gathering my dream team to kick off the project before Christmas and to launch the book next year. So, yes, I'm very excited.
- [64:18]
Stephen Sikevich
Well, you're always welcome to come back on the. On the podcast to talk about it.
- [64:23]
Dr. Ioanna Shakira
Or we shall do. Thank you for this kind invitation. I appreciate it.
- [64:27]
Vanta Representative
All right.
- [64:27]
Stephen Sikevich
And just a reminder for our guests, the title of the book is International Law and Security in the Indo Pacific Strategic Design for the Region. Published by Rutledge in this year 2025, correct?
- [64:44]
Dr. Ioanna Shakira
It is. Fresh, baby.
- [64:46]
Stephen Sikevich
All right. Dr. Ioanna Shakira, thank you for joining us once again. And hopefully we'll see you once in the future.
- [64:54]
Dr. Ioanna Shakira
Thank you. We will. Thank you very much.
- [64:56]
Stephen Sikevich
Thank you for listening to this episode of the New Books Network. I am your host, Stephen Sikevich. Until next time, Limu AMU and Doug.
- [65:17]
Marshall Poe
Here we have the Limu Imu in its natural habitat, helping people customize their car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual. Fascinating. It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug.
- [65:31]
Dr. Ioanna Shakira
Uh, Limu is that guy with the binoculars watching us.
- [65:35]
Marshall Poe
Cut the camera.
- [65:35]
Stephen Sikevich
They see us. Only pay for what you need@libertymutual.com Liberty Liberty.
- [65:39]
Dr. Ioanna Shakira
Liberty.
- [65:40]
Stephen Sikevich
Liberty Savings Ferry unwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company and affiliates Excludes Massachusetts.