Podcast Summary:
New Books Network – Johanna Lukate, "(Dis)Entangled: Black Hair, Race, and Identity" (Coronet, 2025)
Host: Dr. Hannah Poole
Guest: Dr. Johanna Lukate
Date: January 16, 2026
Episode Overview
This episode features a deep and insightful conversation between Dr. Hannah Poole and Dr. Johanna Lukate about Lukate's new book, (Dis)Entangled: Why Black Hair Can't Be Just Hair. The interview unpacks the cultural, psychological, and structural factors that have shaped Black hair experiences, identity formation, and social belonging. Lukate discusses her research methods, major findings, and the intimate, often unseen, stories that braid together individual and collective histories of Black hair in Europe and beyond.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Hair and Identity: The Personal and the Societal
Timestamps: [01:54]–[05:00]
- Johanna’s background: Social psychologist with an interest in how identity is expressed and negotiated through the body, especially hair.
- Hair’s social meaning: Hair is both biological and deeply cultural: its color, texture, and styling acquire layered social meanings across contexts.
- Lukate’s motivation: Frustration with how psychology “flattens” complex identities into tick-boxes, especially regarding race and ethnicity.
Notable Quote [04:57]:
“There’s so much more nuance to what it means to be black, or what it means to be Asian, what it means to be white than is captured by that label. And somehow I felt that psychology falls really flat in accounting for that nuance and heterogeneity.” – Dr. Johanna Lukate
2. The Natural Hair Movement in Context
Timestamps: [05:00]–[10:22]
- Influence of Krauserlocke (Germany): Community for people with curly hair, emphasizing education and empowerment, and a localized facet of the global natural hair movement.
- Social pressure and belonging: Straightening hair or choosing certain styles is not just personal—it reflects societal expectations around being seen as “German” or “professional”.
- Cross-country comparison: Differences between England’s and Germany's racial/ethnic categorization shape Black women's experiences and choices.
3. Research Methods: Capturing Lived Experiences
Timestamps: [10:21]–[19:45]
- Qualitative orientation: Lukate uses interviews, ethnography, and image analysis to access narratives missed by quantitative approaches.
- Hair salons as social spaces: Salons (especially Afro salons) function as community hubs where “the waiting public” gathers, and where hair routines and candid conversations unfold.
- Methodological adaptation: Lukate blends in by taking notes on her phone instead of a notebook, navigating shifting dynamics when her researcher identity becomes known.
- Social media and big data: By analyzing Google Trends and hashtags, Lukate traces the spread of the natural hair movement and triangulates interview findings.
Memorable Moment [14:25]:
“Everyone had their phone out constantly… so I started taking notes on my phone. And from that moment on, I kind of blended in.” – Dr. Johanna Lukate
4. Black Hair and Professionalism
Timestamps: [19:46]–[24:28]
- Shannon’s story (California): Navigates workplace bias by wearing wigs; changes style infrequently to avoid drawing attention to her hair.
- Societal bias: Research (Perception Institute) reveals both white and Black women see Afro hair as less professional—Black women may have implicit biases.
- Work-from-home impact: Pandemic blurs boundaries; at-home becomes another stage for “performing” professionalism via hair.
Notable Quote [21:54]:
"She felt that because of how the US American society sees Black people and the way that natural Afro textured hair is stigmatized in US American society, she does not want to go to work with her natural hair." – Dr. Johanna Lukate on Shannon
5. Hair, Relationships, and Intimacy
Timestamps: [24:29]–[30:57]
- Early lessons about hair: Parents or caregivers are often the first to manage a child’s hair, setting patterns for autonomy and agency.
- Romantic relationships: Hair choices are intertwined with perceptions of attractiveness; some women hide their natural hair for years from partners.
- Maria and Joker: A unique story of mutual hair care, creating intimacy and dismantling norms of concealment.
Notable Quote [28:34]:
“There’s a lot of insecurity, there’s a lot of vulnerability around hair, and especially around Black hair... I’ve had conversations with people who have never shown their romantic partner their natural hair.” – Dr. Johanna Lukate
6. Swimming, Exclusion, and Structural Factors
Timestamps: [30:58]–[38:03]
- Disproportionate drowning rates: Black people in the UK and US drown at higher rates—one factor is the lower rate of swimming proficiency, partly due to hair care challenges.
- Hair as a barrier: Long drying times for Afro hair or protective styles make swimming logistically difficult.
- Structural inequalities: Historic segregation (e.g., swimming pools in the US) led to generational loss of swimming access and skills.
- Case of swim caps: Resistance from governing bodies to accommodating hair texture/volume illustrates systemic exclusion.
Notable Quote [32:36]:
"They tried to get permission for swimmers to use that cap at swim competitions. And the International association for Swimming FINA said no, because they believed there was no swimmer who had a need for that kind of cap." – Dr. Johanna Lukate
7. Systems of Beauty and Power
Timestamps: [38:04]–[40:18]
- Dominant aesthetic ideals: Societal standards privilege light skin and straight or wavy hair—these ideals pervade media, public spaces, and personal perceptions.
- Visibility and power: Those outside the beauty ideal feel less represented and empowered.
Notable Quote [38:34]:
“I call it a system because it is so pervasive… it grants you more power because you are in more powerful positions or… visibility. And at the same time, it’s so powerful because this whole group of people… does not see themselves represented.” – Dr. Johanna Lukate
8. Universal Hair Stories and Final Reflections
Timestamps: [40:19]–[43:30]
- Surprising findings: The profundity and breadth of the swimming chapter; the universality of “hair stories”.
- Men and hair stories: Many men deny having a “hair story” because they keep hair short—Lukate argues there is meaning in these choices too.
- Cultural learning: Everyone, regardless of background, internalizes norms about hair and professionalism; these deserve examination.
Notable Quote [41:48]:
“There is so much power already… there is a whole story in that sentence: ‘I always keep my hair short.’ Like, why?” – Dr. Johanna Lukate
Memorable Quotes (With Context)
-
On the inadequacy of tick-box identities:
“There’s so much more nuance… than is captured by that label. And somehow I felt that psychology falls really flat in accounting for that nuance and heterogeneity.”
[04:57], Johanna Lukate -
On embedding in salons for research:
“Everyone had their phone out constantly… so I started taking notes on my phone. And from that moment on, I kind of blended in.”
[14:25], Johanna Lukate -
On professional pressures and hair:
“She felt that because of how the US American society sees Black people and the way that natural Afro textured hair is stigmatized… she does not want to go to work with her natural hair.”
[21:54], Johanna Lukate about Shannon -
On relationship and vulnerability:
“I’ve had conversations with people who have never shown their romantic partner their natural hair.”
[28:40], Johanna Lukate -
On structural bias in swimming:
“They tried to get permission for swimmers to use that cap at swim competitions. And [FINA] said no… there was no swimmer who had a need for that kind of cap.”
[32:36], Johanna Lukate -
On universal hair stories:
“There is so much power already… there is a whole story in that sentence: ‘I always keep my hair short.’ Like, why?”
[41:48], Johanna Lukate
Episode Structure & Timestamps
- [01:54] – Johanna introduces herself and her research focus
- [03:45] – Personal motivation and critique of psychological approaches to identity
- [05:00] – Krauserlocke and the natural hair movement in Germany/Europe
- [10:21] – Qualitative research approach and immersive ethnography in salons
- [19:46] – Interview stories; Shannon on professionalism and pandemic shifts
- [24:29] – Family, romantic, and community hair relationships
- [30:58] – Swimming, structure, and access—hair as both symbol and obstacle
- [38:04] – Systems of beauty, representation, and the power of visibility
- [40:19] – Surprising insights, men’s stories, and universality of hair narratives
- [43:31] – Closing remarks
Tone and Style
The conversation is empathetic, nuanced, and academically grounded, with Lukate providing personal anecdotes and research insights. Both Poole and Lukate maintain a warm, inquisitive, and occasionally reflective tone, inviting listeners to question their own assumptions and to recognize the complexity embedded in everyday practices like hair care.
For Listeners
If you are new to the subject or considering reading (Dis)Entangled, this episode offers an accessible yet in-depth exploration of Black hair as a site of negotiation, resistance, and community. At every turn, Lukate shows how “just hair” is entangled with centuries of meaning, exclusion, adaptation, and hope.