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John Oakes, "The Fast: The History, Science, Philosophy, and Promise of Doing Without" (Avid Reader, 2024)
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Commercial Narrator
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- [00:24]
John Ox
ugh.
- [00:25]
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John Ox
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- [01:27]
Saman Nasser
Hello everyone and welcome to the New Books Network podcast. I'm Saman Nasser. Today's guest is Publisher John Ox, author of the the History, Science, Philosophy and Promise of Doing without, published in 2024 by avid reader Press. Welcome to the podcast.
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John Ox
John Damon, thank you so much for having me on.
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Saman Nasser
Thank you kindly provide an introduction sharing insights into your extensive work and career in the publishing industry.
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John Ox
With pleasure. Well, for decades I've been involved in independent publishing. I started in the 1980s, I'm afraid, with a long time ago with a wonderful, fair to say, revolutionary publisher Barney Rossett, who is the was the man behind Growth Press and who published people like Samuel Beckett and Jean Genet and many, many others. And that was my beginning in publishing. And from there I started, I ended up starting a company with someone and that went on for about 14 years, a little independent publisher called Four Walls Eight Windows. And we published some wonderful writers there too. People like Andrea Dworkin and the cartoonist Robert Crumb and Harvey Pekar and Eileen Miles Andre. It was really wonderful experience. Very difficult. And then, anyway, my last enterprise, I Started a publisher that's a publishing company that's still going, or books. And right before COVID hit, I stepped back from more and became its editor at large. And I am writing books now, my own books.
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Saman Nasser
Wonderful. What is the central thesis of the fast and how did it originate as a book project, the fast?
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John Ox
Well, the subtitle is the History, Science, Philosophy, and Promise of Doing Without. So it's really a book about asceticism and how I found out and tried to explore the ways in which fasting is at the core of so many world religions. And I don't mean to suggest for a second that that is my discovery, but it was new to me and I. Once I got into fasting a bit, I became very interested in the philosophy behind it. And while There are exactly 4 billion books out there on fasting and how to fast and why it's good for you and all this, there really wasn't one book that at least that I could find that really explored some of the more cultural and intellectual ramifications of fasting and what it means to then from that you get into what it means to not do something when you have the possibility to do it. And for me, that was a very interesting idea. Particularly this interest popped up after what I thought was the last we had seen of President Trump. And for me, and it's a political thing, too, for me, President Trump is somebody who is all about consumption and consuming as much as one can and getting as much as one can, and whether that's gold or energy or just acquisition. And then the. So I became interested in not doing that. I guess that's a very long answer. No, no, a. A compact question. And. And so I had started a fast in the wake of what I thought was just the end of the Trump era. And it was a long fast. And then I became intrigued by the consulate.
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Saman Nasser
Excellent. The. The. The present book, which you. Which you narrated during the period of fasting that you just mentioned, is divided into the aesthetic or the aesthetic, sorry, medical, theological and political manifestations of fasting. Could you please discuss the ascetic and medical aspect of fasting, their nexus, and critically how fasting can serve as a remedy or an aid for lifelong medical conditions such as diabetes, cancer and epilepsy.
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John Ox
I'll try, Salman. And you have to interject when I. Because that is. That's a big topic.
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Saman Nasser
Please go ahead.
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John Ox
Let me see if I can. So I think at the origin of fasting, I was rereading some of the early Christian, some fragments we have from Early Christian philosophy around the year 200 of the common Era. And there are some wonderful, wonderful writings by people like Origen. His. His name is Origen. And many, many others. Of course, you know, later you have Saint earlier you had Saint Augustine. Many writers, Jerome, deal with this idea of fasting. And for them, the idea starts with a very simple concept that something that is full has no room for anything else. So obviously, if you have a cup that I think the analogy was the cup is filled with wine, you could add nothing else to it. So the idea was that if people emptied themselves somewhat, not entirely, you would have room for the word of God. And this basic concept of allowing yourself to be empty really runs through just about every major religion, except really for Sikhism. It's in Buddhism, it's in Judaism. Of course, it's in Islam. By the way, Ramadan Mubarak to you.
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Saman Nasser
Thank you very much.
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John Ox
Yes, yes, celebrate.
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Saman Nasser
Thank you very much.
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John Ox
Blessed Ramadan for your listeners. And one can also say Ramadan. Karim, this idea is integral. It's not incidental. It's at the heart of many religions. And it has different manifestation. I think in Judaism, which is my background, it has more the idea of penance. And I think now that's also more, more the Christian idea that it's a form of showing that, acknowledging that you have sinned during the previous year and that you have, you acknowledge that and you pay fealty to God. In Christianity, the idea of Lent is, I think, more, it's opening a doorway to Easter, to the coming of the Spring. And, and of course in Islam, I, I, it's, it's much more, at least in my reading, a joyous, a joyous experience because although you fast, as you know, and, and no liquids for a devout Muslim from the big, for the entire day, at the end of the day, you have a celebration with family and friends. And it's really a joyous thing. And it was also interesting to me to learn that in Islam it's a much gentler instruction. If in the Quran, at least in the English translation that I read, the request for fasting is that if you're able to do it, you should do it, but it's not a sin not to do it. In that case, you should give some charity to the poor. And I thought that was a very distinct difference from the Judeo Christian tradition with which I was very familiar, which is that it's much more a punishment and we should all acknowledge we're sinners. And that didn't come through so much in The Islamic tradition. In Buddhism it's more, much more trying to find the center of oneself and to. And this I found very applicable for me during my past trying to sort of get off the treadmill of daily life in which this sort of fire hose of sensations and things and are a just an output that we can't possibly process comes at us in the course of our daily lives. And by fasting you step back a bit and I think that's much more in line with the Buddhist concept. Although Buddha at the end of his 40 day fast, something he shared with Abraham and Moses, this for some reason this idea 40 days is very important in amongst these religious leaders. After he came out of that he decided that extreme fasting is not a Buddhist precept. But still this idea of holding back is indeed a part of every Buddhist tradition and you have it also in the Hinduism. But Saman, I've only touched on part of what you asked and you asked me also in your question about some of the scientific benefits. There are so many. I think what is important to emphasize in this, if one is seriously looking at fasting, which is I found very few people do who advocate it and I would say I'm an advocate of it, is to acknowledge that it is also can be a very dangerous thing for a normal person. Reasonable fasting, including the kind of fasting that is Ramadan fasting is actually very healthy for you. It's just so many studies have shown that it gives your cells, if you want a chance to almost reset and it gives your body a break apart from the spiritual benefits. It really does. And then your body, this incredible cocktail of hormones and chemicals courses through your body. If you go without food for a few days, which is not the case in Ramadan, but it is the case in extended fasting. But I started by saying that I think it's very important to acknowledge that it can be dangerous. And I am not a fan of these things where people, they go for several weeks without food. I think I don't quite get the point of that. And of course it can be seen as sort of a way of a kind of self torture. And for me it's a means of empowerment and it is also a sense of the body's potential and of asserting your agency over your innate every person's right to partake or not partake of things and. But Salman, I've raised so many issues here. I know that you probably have many questions and I still haven't touched on some of the things you asked me about in that one big question. But I do think, you know, anorexia is an issue that can't be dismissed. That's really generally associated with. It's been shown people have a genetic predisposition to that. But, but there is a kind of fasting which can be seen as this kind of masochistic enterprise. And for me it really isn't. It's a wonderful experience. I always come out of a long fast feeling healthy and refreshed and bright eyed and bushy tailed and I look forward to my next fast. And that was not the case with me growing up. When I saw Yom Kippur, it was this really awful experience and you had to suffer for a whole day without eating. And I didn't quite get the point. But you probably have a question or should I just rattle on?
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Saman Nasser
Yeah, I mean, please, I, I'm enjoying it. It's especially, I mean, I've read before about how fasting can help eliminate potential cancer cells and turn them into energy for the, for the body. Which, which, which was something that gave more justification for extended fasting or intermittent fasting. I don't know where exactly I've read that, but it was in a journal, scientific journal.
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John Ox
There are people who say that fasting can do everything from. You know, Mark Twain wrote about how it cured the common cold and all this stuff. I'm not so sure about that. What has been shown. There are a few specific things that we can. I think medical doctor, any medical doctor would assert fasting. If, for example, you are suffering from cancer fasting and you are taking chemotherapy, actually fasting in some circumstances can open you up to make the chemicals more effective and to have to sort of heighten to multiply the effect of what you're taking. I don't know about curing cancer. I would be very cautious about those kind of claims. It has been shown to have an effect and in fact this has been done for actually about 100 years now. Since the 1920s it's been used. People who have epilepsy have been shown to have reduced symptoms by doing extended periods of fasting and breaking that. And in general, fasting is healthier for you. Your body does better when, I mean it kind of makes some kind of intuitive sense when you're. It's not being overwhelmed with ingesting things. And I mentioned earlier this kind of cocktail chemicals that goes through your body. There are things called endocannabinoids which are very closely related, as it sounds, to cannabis, which give you this, which after a few days your body produces and it gives you a very sort of calm feeling. There's this thing called the fasters high which is kind of you do kind of after a few days of not eating, you kind of get very mellow and a little bit stoned. And some people report that they get an absolutely perfect memory and they can recall conversation word for word. That hasn't happened to me. But people reliably do report that. But in terms of cure alls, I'm very dubious about that. I'm sure there are specific instances of people who have gone on fasting for prolonged periods and find they're cured of whatever ailment they had. But I think until there are long term studies, and there actually have been surprisingly few long term that involve a lot of people. But it's hard to make that those kind of blanket statements. What we have seen are several long term studies involving a good number of people showing that it does lower your blood pressure, it works for lowering hypertension, things like that. But the big one, cancer. I hadn't making cancer drugs more effective. Yes. Curing.
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Saman Nasser
Yes, yes, that is what I meant. Not that it would act as a substitute obviously for proven treatments of cancer and any other ailments, but rather act as an assistant of sorts and helping.
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John Ox
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- [21:07]
Saman Nasser
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John Ox
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If you can lighten up a bit, that, that's, that's, that's good for you. And, but you know, it also, by the way, the intermittent fasting, extreme fasting by, for example, this 20 days can be a strain on one's heart because after a few days when you're fine, you know, I'd say a fast up to a week or eight or nine days is definitely for a normal, healthy person drinking fluids, that's fine. After that, I think clinically what happens. Well, the fact is, clinically what happens is the body starts, finally realizes the mind is not going to direct it to get more food. And so what happens is you start after you've gone through your fat reserves, you start feeding on protein, and the body's imperative is to keep your brain supplied with whatever it can. And so you start, you go through something called cachexia, which is the medical term for wasting away. And that your body starts after, you know, a couple of weeks. Your body starts eating its own muscles. And of course, your heart is a big muscle. And so most people who die of starvation die of cardiac arrest. And so I think that is a rather grim thing. But it's something to bear in mind that, you know, the longer you fast, the healthier you're not necessarily going to become. But limited fasting is for a normal, healthy person who's drinking fluids. It's a good thing. I think there's really no question for that. And you speak of studies, studies of people taking during Ramadan. I was fascinated to read that a study of professional athletes who observed Ramadan showed no difference in their performance. Several studies have shown that. And that is extended fasting, of course, or intermittent, extended, intermittent fasting. The people who went through Biosphere who had a. Just a calorie reduction in what they ate. If you remember this thing, Biosphere 2, which was supposed to be a totally closed environment, it failed in many respects. But one respect in which it was a huge success, and which the results are still being cited to this day by all sorts of a variety of scientific studies, was that this little group of people who had a severely diminished intake over a long period of time, they came out of this experience much healthier in terms of blood pressure and just all sorts of physical attributes than when they went in. So, yes, I'd say we can say, we can say with confidence that for a person in reasonably good health, fasting is a very good thing for you. And, and it also, that's speaking physically as Salman. But I think for me, the primary point, and actually I got into it, I'm not that excited about the health aspect. For me, it's really provides a point of meditation, this idea of just taking a temporary break from all these things that we're assailed with, even if we're not particularly wealthy, even if one is poor. I mean, fasting is a tradition in countries which have seen horrible famines, such as Ethiopia and Ireland and Russia, fasting, the fasting tradition is very strong in these countries. But even if you're, if you experience a period of privation, fasting can bring you back to yourself. And that's just the kind of, this break is very valuable, I think. And it reminds each of us that we have, even with limited resources at our disposal, we have the power, the agency to do things. Even in prison, one can fast. And of course, that's called a, usually often called a hunger strike. And there are innumerable examples of hunger strikes, which of course are not always. People don't always get what they want after a hunger strike. But it is an assertion of power, even if one is subjected to force feeding. And by the way, the largest force feeding in history that we know of took place at Guantanamo Bay a few years back when hundreds of prisoners there, at the US base there in Cuba went on hunger strike and were force fed. And those prisoners didn't get everything they were asking for. They were asking for some certain privileges. But it draws attention to your plight and it forces the authorities because in prison you're supposed to be totally beholden to whatever establishment has imprisoned you, right? But by fasting you're saying, I refuse. I feel this is unjust. I want to change in whatever the situation is. And even if the authorities say, okay, I'm going to force feed you, which by the way, is a brutal process, extremely dangerous, and many people die from, have died historically from it. You have to force a tube down someone's throat and if it's not done very carefully, with great care, expertise, with great expertise, you can tear the inside, you know, people's delicate interior and kill them. You're someone who's obligating authorities to force feed them is making, changing the routine. Or alternatively, if the authorities say, I don't care, you can starve, that still is saying, I won't take your slop. I am going to have a break in the routine. Even if I can't break out of here, I am not going to be a part of it. And these, I mean, actually the current mayor of New York City, where I live, Zoram Mandani, not many people know that he was a participant in a, when he was, I think when he was a council, a state assemblyman several years ago. I didn't even know this, but I was writing about the fast, this fast. He took part in a fast of taxi drivers who are fasting against the extremely high interest rates on the loans they had been basically tricked into taking for their medallions, which in New York City is what you have to get a license, and it's called a medallion. And they're very expensive. And they had been basically tricked into these super expensive loans. And so several of them committed suicide. And then a whole bunch of them went on an extended hunger strike with this young politician called Zoram Dani. And by God, after a couple of weeks, you know, it was not an easy thing. They got a lot of media attention and the loan rates were changed. So, and I should, as I said, you know, course not every hunger strike gets what it aims to, but it is an effective, powerful assertion of the agency that we all walk around with, even if we forget we have it the right to say no. Which is something that interests me, obviously.
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Saman Nasser
Yeah, yes. No, I mean that again. And that was one of my, my questions which you've answered so eloquently about the, about how effective fasting can be in the face of local, regional and global systems of operations. Obviously, there are examples. There are more directly successful examples like Gandhi or Bobby. Sam.
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John Ox
Yes, absolutely. And what is fascinating to me, Salman, is that this is something that pops up spontaneously around the world. And it has, I believe it has. I can't prove this, but I would argue that the likelihood is strong that it has been going on for as long as there's been civilization. There have been people who, you know, probably since the time of the Neanderthals, you had a few extra shells and a few extra pieces of fresh mastodon meat, and you decided, you know, I'm not going to take those, take that. I'm just going to sit back. Maybe I let the community take the rest. Maybe I am angry at something or hurt. And I feel disempowered and I'm not going to participate. And it is so interesting that to me that this tradition has popped up in two places where it's participating particularly strong. Ireland and India on different parts of the globe. In pre Christian Ireland, fasting was seen as opening up a magical realm. It was really a tool to, you know, not just sort of spiritual fulfillment, the way I think most people see it now, or many people do, but actually to literally opening up a realm to the supernatural. And there were fines for illegal fasting. We could chuckle about it, but, you know, it makes sense to me in pre Christian Ireland. And that, I think, is one of the things that made Ireland, Ireland of the Druids, so receptive to St Patrick. When he came over, he was. St Patrick had been kidnapped by Irish, I mean, at the sort of early Viking bandits who kidnapped him from Wales and brought him over as a slave. And he became, of course, the person who Christianized or started to Christianize Ireland. And I think a very good case can be made that the Irish were so receptive because fasting, which is integral, was particularly strong in early Christianity, was also deeply revered in Ireland. And in fact, there's a. A story about St. Patrick that he sat on top of a mountain again for 40 days. There's this sort of this macho competition amongst these. These religious leaders. You know, they all got to do it for 40 days and before coming down. And one of the conditions of breaking his fast was that he wanted to. At that, on Judgment Day, he wanted to be the one to judge the Irish, which I thought was quite interesting. Yeah, but so it's around the world. And. And you mentioned Gandhi. Of course, in the, in Gandhi struggle, many people died and the fight against the British. And. But he was. He did get worldwide attention, uh, in. In large measure, I think that's right. Because of his fasting. Gandhi, actually, I think his first fast, interestingly enough, was against his own supporters. And in that he was joined by Cesar Chavez, the great labor leader in the States, the United Farm Workers. He also is first famous faster who, like Gandhi, of whom he was very aware of his first fast, was against his own supporters. In both cases, these leaders were fasting because some of their supporters were inclined to violence, and they felt that that was in danger of invalidating their respective movements. And I, I don't know about that, but I will say I think it takes huge discipline, you know, and of course, there are many activist movements right now in. In this. In the US and the Temptation to fall into violence is great, particularly when you're faced with stronger, physically stronger forces. But I think we've seen it really can weaken one's cause in certain circumstances. And you have the, you have a moral authority with nonviolence. But of course I'm going a little bit far afield from the subject of fasting, but I think it's certainly related to. You spoke of the Irish, the modern Irish rebels who started fasting in the early 1900s and many, many Irish, I, I should say patriots died. So that has to be acknowledged. While they were fat, many people starved to death and English prisons. And so it's, it is not a clear and easy road, road to victory. But in the end they, they, they won. And I think one could again, in that case, you could argue that in large measure it was because of their taking this moral authority of fasting. Violence makes you, you. Then the authorities, in whatever case it is, they point to you and they say, oh, they're just a bunch of hoodlums or thugs or as we've seen recently, people getting called terrorists. There is a universal purity of fasting, of refusing to indulge in the violence and brutality I guess is a very good word to use for the other side when that happens. And there's a temptation to respond in kind. But I think it ultimately is a mistake. It weakens one's position.
- [39:02]
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- [39:30]
John Ox
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- [40:01]
John Ox
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- [40:34]
Saman Nasser
book you talked about how fasting can potentially escalate into self harm for some of its practitioners due primarily to deliberate consumerist, profit driven schemes by some important historical fasters. Can you talk more about that?
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John Ox
Sure. So I think one of the beauties of fasting is that it has unless you're on a hunger strike and even then, you know, many people have limits say they're going to go on a hunger strike of couple of weeks or something. General fasting, the beauty of it is its borders and having a sort of a thing that you're now going to go into a, it's almost like going into a, a, a portable internal church, if you will, or a, a holy place. And it doesn't have to be connected with a specific deity. But this idea that you're okay now I'm going to go on a fast for three days or eight days or ten days or whatever. I think that's important. And when you, you sort of subscribe to this overall, this sense that only through the thinnest is the best and you get into this kind of commercial idea of beauty which is of unattainable beauty, which I think is by definition it's going to be a kind of torture for yourself the commercialization you're talking about. I think now you can pay something like or I'm sure that the figures are worse since I looked at at it. But when I looked at it, people were paying $1,000 a day to go into these clinics where basically you're paying for the privilege of not eating. And really this is something which I find hugely exploitative. And it's if you're going to do this, it's really a good idea to do it with a friend or a partner. Then you can complain to each other bitterly for the first couple of days and then embark on this together on this kind of serene experience which really does hit after a few days of fasting. So also I yeah, as Salman I think there is an industry that's come up been built up around this, which I, I don't approve of and I think is antithetical to the idea of fasting, which is a finding space within oneself. Even if it's a religious as my fasting certainly is, I think you find a strengthening moral and physical strengthening that is rewarding for anybody who participates.
- [43:45]
Saman Nasser
Thank you. What were the main challenges in writing this book?
- [43:51]
John Ox
Well, the main challenge for me was that it touches on so many aspects of philosophy and religion and science that I panicked a bit and then I kind of fasted from my panic I realized I couldn't be. If I really wanted to touch every aspect of this subject it would be a multi volume series and it's not. But I think the book does a pretty good job of encompassing it all goes through the Greeks and it touch and to modern day and it touches on the Irish struggles and on Hinduism and it touches it, it does discuss with and provide with the dates and facts and cultural references of fasting and all its many aspects. So I think it's a pretty darn good overview and maybe something more of the various potentials of fasting.
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Saman Nasser
No, no, it is and it's very lucidly written too.
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John Ox
But you're asking about challenges, not how great the book was. The challenges are just that, that it's, it's just this incredible aspect that is of our lives that is accessible to all of us. And I, I found that so exciting and so I hope I, I, I've captured a bit of that in the book. The other big challenge I guess was balancing this idea of the tragic aspect of it anorexia, which is, you know, fasting to the point of no return, fasting without control and then intentional fasting to death which some hunger strikers have done. And that's very difficult to reconcile with empowering fasting, which I think is great Indeed.
- [46:04]
Saman Nasser
Indeed. The Italian theorist Antonio Gramsci's concept of cultural hegemony where elites rule via force of ideas rather than a brute force, looms large here. As we are living in a society that normalize mass consumption. How can we promote healthy fasting in such an environment?
- [46:26]
John Ox
Demic is a great question. I think the idea and you evoke the wonderful Gramsci, which I would never dare do. And I know you have read more of that guy than I have. But also someone who was in prison and had a chance and in prison I guess one could have a opportunity to meditate on having stuff taken away from you involuntarily and then how that becomes an advantage. I think the way to promote fasting in a non religious sense, in a healthy sense is to remind us that when we, it's like a limited pool that we can step into and step out of, we should be cognizant of it as a borderline, a bordered state that you can, it's a privilege to undertake a fast for me. And I think that is not a bad way to look at it that you can regard it as a vacation from the, this ceaseless assault of things that happens to us. And it's not only things that are people trying to sell us stuff. It's just the nature of being. If you're out in the woods or in nature somewhere and even then you're getting all these sensations and intentional fasting is, is going to take you out of the stream of sensations and then you can get back into it. And that's the beauty of it. To realize it is a state of being where you can step in and step out. It's only going to, with conscious limits to it. It's only going to do good things for you. As I say, always if you're in reasonably good health and you're taking fluids and you watch yourself, it's not going to hurt you. And it can help you in many different ways.
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Saman Nasser
Yes, yes indeed. I mean I, in a way, as mass consumption is normalized, we also, religion and science is also prevalent in the society. So that can help, I feel in the promotion of, let's call it the healthy, healthy fasting.
- [48:58]
John Ox
Yes. And you know, it's interesting, in this country, in the US there used to be a tradition of public fasting. Can you imagine a US President calling for a day, a national day of fasting? Up until the turn of the 19th century that was done by several presidents and Lincoln did it at least three times that I know of. And he would call for a day of fasting humiliation and prayer humiliation. Can you imagine somebody, a national leader calling for a day of that kind of self reflection? And it doesn't have to be associated with religion, but I think it's within all of our capacities to think about how we interact with one another and how maybe we could improve that or at the same time to reflect on the strengths that we get from our interactions with one another or not and how we might change that. And this was a tradition also, you know, in the, from the time of the Puritans, they, they would do that of course call for fasting. In those cases it was more that we. The idea that people have sinned and then you're fasting, as I said, in this Judeo Christian sense of penance. But it doesn't have to be that. One could call for a day of self reflection, which I think would take someone with a lot of courage to do. And I don't see our current, in our current political climate, any national leader getting up on a stage and calling for a day of humiliation and self reflection. But I don't think it would be a bad thing.
- [51:02]
Saman Nasser
Last but certainly not least, how do
- [51:05]
John Ox
you
- [51:07]
Saman Nasser
get into fasting? I know for me, Ramadan is what structures my fasting. Like, once it's over, it's very hard to do to fast. And Ramadan, you know, steps in and organizes my, my, my fasting. So I don't know your, your methods.
- [51:32]
John Ox
So you're asking Salman, you're saying it's hard. You're asking if it's hard to get into. I gotta say.
- [51:41]
Saman Nasser
Or rather, or rather, if you don't rather, like, do you have like, let's say, like a time of the month where you say, okay, from this date of the month until this date, I'll be fasting or.
- [51:52]
John Ox
So for me, the, as I say, I grew up with this idea of fasting connected with penance and with pain. And so it was a very, you know, oh, you're a bad person, so you, you better fast. And that kind of association certainly had negative, obvious negative connotations. And then years ago, my partner, who is Swiss, and there's a very strong Germanic tradition of sort of exposing oneself to tough situations, and we went on a long path. I thought I would die for sure. And I did it like 30 years ago, and it was fine, but I didn't feel the need to come back to it. The most recent one or I got into it again post Trump because I wanted to sort of purge myself and of. I just wanted to get out of that state of thinking that I was in. So I undertook this long fast and it was good experience. So then I thought I'd do it again. You're. This is a long answer to your question of how you get back into it. For me, it's something I decided I want to do twice a year. So since the, I guess that was 2016, I've been doing it twice a year for, by my standards, a long fast, which is eight or nine days, depending on how I feel. I. I'm easy on myself, so I just leave it open. But definitely eight days, lots of fluids and I look forward to it. It's all I can tell you. I do it sometime in spring, sometime in the fall, and as a break. And I haven't maybe it's a question of age. You know, I'm an older person, but I find it. I find it a great break from routine and from stopping myself, which I regularly do without thinking what I'm eating. And then after a fast for a brief time, I'm actually intentional in what I'm eating and I'm thinking about what I'm doing and then I forget all over again and it takes another fast to bring me back into where I was. But I guess the truth is, Salman, that it's got to be different for everyone. And but it's sure it's going to help if once you realize that a it does demonstrably good things for your body if you do it reasonably and with care, and b it does presumably in my case, certainly it makes me feel more centered and just having a better relationship with the world.
- [54:58]
Saman Nasser
Excellent. Excellent, John. Thank you for your time and for this insightful and very informative conversation. And may you always be in the most optimal of health.
- [55:10]
John Ox
Thank you, thank you and I wish you the same, Salman. And thank you for the opportunity to talk probably too much about this book copy.
- [55:22]
Saman Nasser
Thank you very much.
- [55:36]
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