← New Books Network
New Books Network
John R. Davis, "Keep Your Ear to the Ground: A History of Punk Fanzines in Washington, DC" (Georgetown UP, 2025)
00:56:00
Loading summary
Transcript56 lines
- [00:00]
Podcast Host
This episode is brought to you by Avid tv. Where do savvy minds go to find masterful documentaries and hard to find films from across the globe? Try a free month long trial at Ovid and go beyond the mainstream. Indiewire says Ovid is unafraid to program films that matter and the New York Times calls Ovid a terrific streamer for independent film fans. A boutique hand curated streaming service, yet now with over 2,400 titles, Ovid is the home to films by auteurs from Chantal Akerman to Chris Marker to Wang Bing and has the richest collection of probing, avant garde and provocative films anywhere. Ovid offers many things except conformity. Try Ovid today and get your first month free. Use promo code N B N O V I D. That's Ovid TV promo code N B N O V I.
- [00:48]
Rebecca Buchanan
D so good, so good, so good.
- [00:51]
Nordstrom Advertiser
Just in thousands of winter arrivals at your Nordstrom rack store. Save up to 70% on coats, slippers and cashmere from Kate Spade New York, Vince Ugg, Levi's and more.
- [01:01]
Rebecca Buchanan
Check out these Boo.
- [01:03]
John Davis
The best gifts.
- [01:04]
Nordstrom Advertiser
My holiday shopping hack.
- [01:05]
John Davis
Join the NordicLub.
- [01:06]
Nordstrom Advertiser
Get an extra 5% off every rack purchase with your Nordstrom credit card. Plus buy it online and pick it up in store the same day for free. Big gifts, big perks. That's why you rack.
- [01:18]
Liquid IV Advertiser
Some days call for working up a sweat, working on your passion and endless action. Ditch the glitch with Liquid IV's new energy multiplier, sugar free refreshing flavors like strawberry, kiwi and BlackBerry. BlackBerry Lemonade. Scientifically formulated to support physical energy, hydration, focus, mood and social stamina. Liquid IV's new energy multiplier, sugar free hydrating energy. Tap the banner to learn more.
- [01:49]
Podcast Host
Welcome to the New Books Network.
- [01:54]
Rebecca Buchanan
Hi, this is Rebecca Buchanan, host of New Books Network, New Books and Popular Culture. And today I'm here with John Davis, who is the author of Keep youp Ear to the A History of Punk Fanzines in Washington, dc. John, thanks for being here here with me today.
- [02:08]
John Davis
Of course, thank you for including me.
- [02:11]
Rebecca Buchanan
Could you start by talking a little bit about why you wanted to put this book together, how this sort of came. To be sure.
- [02:21]
John Davis
It goes back decades really for me because I as a teenager grew up in the Washington, D.C. area and became immersed in the punk subculture in the D.C. area as a young teenager in the early 90s and was a fanzine creator and a musician and a part of that punk scene for a pretty long time. I mean, I would still consider myself a part of that punk subculture here in D.C. when I started working at the University of Maryland around 2013. I had recently gotten my master's in Library and Information Science and was building a career in archives and was fortunate to have as a mentor the curator at the time of Special Collections and Performing Arts at the University of Maryland. That's the archive where I work. He was also a part of the DC subculture, the punk subculture, and so he understood the scholarly value of DC punk and he supported it. And we built these collections here at the University of Maryland that collected fanzines and flyers and photographs and other materials from the D.C. punk scene and just built this collection here. So I would occasionally present on those collections at conferences and such. And I think it was 2017, I presented at the D.C. history Conference, and there was, I think, maybe like three or four people at that presentation, but. And in fact, this person wasn't even there, but she. She had heard about it, and she was. She's an editor at Georgetown University Press. And she said that she was interested in the topic and wondered if I had ever considered writing a book on it. And so her name is Hope Legro. And Hope was just a hugely supportive and encouraging. Just throughout the whole process, she really helped me turn it into a book. And it took about seven or eight years to get it all together, but that is what. What is now available for people to read.
- [04:48]
Rebecca Buchanan
Awesome. Before we kind of dive into the nuts and bolts, this is sort of full of images. You sort of combine interviews, all of that. So can you talk a little bit about that kind of research process? Some of, like, the mab. Also the importance of having those images, having examples of not only the zines, but photographs, photographs of folks that were part of this sort of scene throughout the time that you're looking at in dc?
- [05:20]
John Davis
Yeah, it really felt like a must for me to try to include those images and to have them be color, if possible, and just to try to convey the. Just the palette of punk to the reader, to the viewer. And that was something that I did make clear to Hope, my editor at Georgetown, when we first met, to talk about this book idea. I've read so many books on punk. I mean, I love the subject, and it's also my research focus in my job as faculty at the University of Maryland. So I was pretty well versed in what I liked and maybe didn't like about some books. And so I presented that to her. I said, how about, you know, is there a way we could, you know, really make sure that these images are in color? And that the book itself is maybe. Maybe not quite a coffee table book, but it's a little bit larger. You know, zines often were eight and a half by 11. And so if we could have a book that was 9 by 12 or something like that, that would be really cool to just, again, try to convey, you know, just how vivid and eye catching so many of these zines are. So, yeah, that from the beginning of the project was really a core principle of this project, of just trying to convey that. And thankfully, Georgetown University Press was supportive of that idea. And, you know, now we have a book that looks the way it does.
- [06:50]
Rebecca Buchanan
So I feel like this book is as much about the sort of fanzines as it is about D.C. and D.C. as this space space for punk and different iterations of punk throughout dc. And so you kind of start out by giving us the roots of the DC fanzine, but also kind of the roots of DC and punk. So can you talk a little bit before we jump into some of the sort of the timeframes for the zines? You look at punk and fanzines and the roots of that in dc? Like, why dc? I mean, I know that that's where you. Part of the scene you are from, but why is DCL so important beyond that?
- [07:27]
John Davis
Yeah, that felt important to me that this would be a book that hopefully someone who wasn't already in the know could pick this up and through the first chapter, the first and second chapter could be brought up to speed effectively on what fanzines are, where they come from, what some of their influences are. Because it didn't just start in 1976 with this particular fanzine, and of course, built up to that through a variety of influences. And you could just go. You go way, way, way back if you wanted to. But I did kind of choose to only really go back about 50 or 60 years. But I just wanted the reader to have an idea because not everybody, not everyone knows these things. And again, fanzines are inclusive. Punk is inclusive. And I wanted the book to be inclusive in that way, too. And also, hopefully, even if you're a real hardcore fan and you know these aspects of punk, I would still hope that there would be something in that introductory setup that would still maybe be informative or would surprise you. So, yes, I just thought that in the spirit of this whole thing, I just wanted to give a little context and make sure that people understood and not just assume that they might know that. So, yes, I kind of trace that from earlier art movements and earlier fan movements within the comic book family fan communities and the sci fi fan communities. And then just kind of how rock and roll journalism and fan writing developed through the 50s and 60s and 70s, and also the influence of underground newspapers in the 60s, with a kind of a special focus on the ones that come out of dc, but also talking about ones from elsewhere. You know, the. The Seed or, you know, the Barb. You know, there's a number of so many things that needed to be acknowledged as important steps in this process, because that is what this is. I mean, it is a process, it is a continuum. So I just wanted again to capture that for the reader and just show that it's all part of this long, long story.
- [09:45]
Rebecca Buchanan
Right. And so, I mean, the meat of this book looks at zines and fanzines in the 80s, right. But you also start with stuff that was going on in the 70s, so really early punk zines and sort of the early punk scene. And I think we often. We know that punk scenes happen sort of everywhere, but, you know, it's often like dc, it's often New York, it's often London. So can you talk a little bit about what was going on in D.C. in the 70s and what kind of sort of zines were coming out when you really were looking at those first, like the late 70s time period?
- [10:26]
John Davis
I was eager to illuminate that aspect of the story that, yes, just like you said, it's like New York City. That zine scene has been well documented. Los Angeles, San Francisco, London, and rightfully so. I wanted to place DC in that as well because the zines that were published in DC are not really known as well. So there were a few that kind of got started in the mid-70s or in late 1976 and into 77. There was one called It's Only a Movie, and then another one after that called Vintage Violence, which is sort of like the most true punk fanzine, but it's Only a Movie. It's probably the first one. And it mixed coverage of things like the Ramones with DC punk bands like the Slicky Boys, but also just like a broader rock and roll coverage and sort of adept Cream magazine and things like that. I mean, it was this brew of influences, but it did have a distinct flavor in its sort of fannishness and its attention to what was starting to happen, just starting to happen in D.C. at the end of 1976. And then, yes, vintage violence was in the late 70s, 77, 78, another one called the Infiltrator, another one called D Scenes. These were all like the very beginning. And that was part of why I wanted to sort of get set up in the first chapter where I was talking about the influence of underground newspapers on punk fanzines. Because you can especially see it in that era, in the late 1970s, through the larger tabloid format of the publication that it was printed on newsprint. They really sort of smacked of late 60s, early 70s underground newspapers, but they were from a fan's perspective, and I just thought that was really cool. So, yeah, again, it's like it's an. They're overlooked for sure, but I'm just trying to help get them on the map and then perhaps inspire people to use an archive like the one we have at the University of Maryland, or an archive, you know, like the one at D.C. public Library to go to. Go read these for yourself and, you know, see what you find.
- [12:47]
Rebecca Buchanan
Yeah, I think that's one thing that's great is that all the zines that you kind of talk about are ones that people could go and find in an archive. They can sort of see why an archive and archiving zines is really important not only for sort of punk scholars, but for also thinking about understanding histories of place and different kind of subcultural spaces. So. Yeah, so one thing in your. I mean, you could sort of said, like, this pseudo coffee table book, right, that you did is really divide this up by years, which I think is really nice. So, I mean, you can read this in a linear fashion, but if someone really was interested in what was going on in 1984, we could look at 1984. Right. So you've got this sort of. So can maybe talk about, like, why, like, you. You sort of do here's the 70s, and then you kind of go into, like, the early 90s gets a chapter two, and then the 21st century. But the chunk of this is in the 80s, and we can talk. Break that down a little bit. What can you talk a little bit about why the 80s was so important, especially in D.C. with punk and punk fanzines, that you felt like it really needed to have its own, like many multiple years, had to have their own kind of chapters.
- [14:04]
John Davis
Yeah. It was certainly a high point in the development of punk in the D.C. area. 1980, 79 into 80 is the emergence of hardcore, which is one of the things that DC is best known for, through bands like Bad Brains and Minor Threat and Government Issue and the Faith and On and On. So the zines that were coming out then, you know, I was really zooming in on to help trace that peak within music. And a lot of what DC is known for, like I said, is, you know, it's the early phase of hardcore and then that sort. There was a rebirth in the mid-80s through bands like Rites of Spring and Gray Matter and Embrace, you know, what's called Emo was this whole change that really impacted punk music in the years to follow. So, again, it was. I could really zoom in on the fanzines in the D.C. area that were documenting it, because that, you know, that's just a big part of this book in general, is I just really want people to understand that a punk scene is an ecosystem and that it's not just about the band. So it's like, understandably, bands are, you know, they're up on stage. I mean, they're literally often on the pedestal. And they are. They are viewed as the scene. But there is no scene without fanzines or record stores or the activists or, you know, the promoters or, you know, and certainly the fans themselves. And that needs to be talked about more when, you know, we're doing these histories of a scene because they are pretty band focused, understandably. But now that we're sort of establishing that. That there are enough histories of those bands, let's make sure we're talking about the other things too. So zooming in on each year or maybe one or two years, as I did through the 80s and the early 90s, that did kind of enable me to sort of do exploded drawings of. Of the scene during those really specific times and just sort of break it apart and show that here are specific people that were doing that. And, you know, the 90s does start to get sort of lumped together more as you go through the book. And I think that, you know, I was trying to convey that there were sort of different, like two distinct phases in the 90s for me, or in my opinion, which is sort of like before and after the boom of alternative rock that happened. So there is kind of an early 90s section, an early 90s chapter that talks about the lead up to Nirvana and the alternative rock explosion of 91 and 92 and then everything after that in the 90s and how that was enabled by the rise of not just the Internet, but also. Or not just alternative rock, but also places like Kinko's Copies, which became ubiquitous through the 90s as places where you could make copies. But they were also cultural centers. I mean, they were places that you would meet other people. I got a job at a Kinko's Copies when I was a teenager in the 90s just to be able to enable my own, you know, zine making and flyer making and, you know, the record label I was running at the time, you know, that was. That was, you know, unwillingly supported by Kinko's copies. But. But also it was a place to meet people. I mean, there were always people coming in to the scene to make their flyers. And I mean, I still have friends from that time. So again, like the 90s, I didn't get quite as granular. Also because there was so much going on at that time, it would almost be impossible to go like year by year through the 90s because the rise of alternative rock culture, the much broader awareness of what zines were, the ubiquity of copy shops, all that sort of stuff that made zine making even more prevalent throughout the 90s. I kind of just decided to break it into two eras and, you know.
- [18:27]
Rebecca Buchanan
Yeah, I. I laugh because the role of Kinko's in the zine community is really important. I feel like it's very central. You are not the only one who got a job at Kinko's or passed along, you know, the code to make free copies at Kinko's. Yes, thank you, Kinko's. You didn't know what you did, but you did it. So can you. Another thing you kind of bring into this are the importance of space. Right. Throughout, like, so clubs, not only clubs, but like. Like you mentioned, record stores, record labels, like sort of spaces that were used within punk and how they became important to the community, but also to fanzines and the production of fanzine. So can you talk a little bit about that too? Some of these spaces that were really important in the D.C. area and how they kind of connected with the zine writing.
- [19:24]
John Davis
Yeah, so, yeah, I mean, I. Kinko's or other copy shops, you know, would certainly be one of those things. Like I said, I mean, that was a place where I would meet people and I would see people working and be inspired by just witnessing what was going on. And certainly concert venues, of course, you know, because there were clubs like the 9:30 Club and the Black Hat in the 90s, which were, you know, places that do get talked about in the book as spaces where zine editors would go and would distribute their zines. Know, Sarah Marcus talks about, you know, people bringing lunch, lunch boxes full of zines. And you would see people and you, you. That's what you would use to carry your zines and you would. You would trade them and. Or, you know, Bobby Jones and Stuart Hill, like their zine in the 80s called D Scene. You know, they would just go to the 9:30 club and hand them out and try to connect to people that way. And you know, it was, it was a way a zine was away in these different spaces like record stores or high school hallways or. Or even a Kinko's or a show or any of that sort of thing. The zine was like your introduction and a way to just. That was a language that everyone understood. So it wasn't strange to just walk up to someone and say like, hey, I have a zine. Do you want to read it? Do you want one? And especially if it was free. And that was even easier. It got a little more challenging if you were asking for a quarter or a dollar or something like that. But that still led to connections even if you were asking for money. And even just beyond those handful of spaces that I mentioned. It was like gathering places for people in the subculture. That was how we connected. And zines were a tool for that connection, for that building of networks. Because the Internet was so new, I mean, basically non existent in the 80s and 70s and then emerging in the 90s, you know, that was how I. I think 1993 was the beginning for me of when I first started meeting people within punk on the Internet. I used something called Prodigy and there were these places, it was basically like they would call them bulletin boards. And I would say, like, I have a zine. You know, do you, do you want one? And so that was kind of my first step into a virtual space as opposed to the physical rooms that I was used to going to. But. But yeah, we needed those places to gather, to share those ideas and to connect with what it was about punk that meant so much to us. And then the zine, the fanzine, was this sort of calling card you could use to really hasten those connections and further them.
- [22:08]
Liquid IV Advertiser
When did making plans get this complicated? It's time to streamline with WhatsApp, the secure messaging app that brings the whole group together. Use polls to settle dinner plans, send event invites and pin messages so no one forgets mom 60th and never miss a meme or milestone. All protected with end to end encryption. It's time for WhatsApp message privately with everyone. Learn more at WhatsApp.comLimu gay bar and Doug.
- [22:37]
Liberty Mutual Advertiser
Here we have the Limu Emu in its natural habitat, helping people customize their car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual. Fascinating. It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug. Limu is that guy with the binoculars. Watching us cut the camera they see.
- [22:55]
John Davis
Us Only pay for what you need@libertymutual.com.
- [22:58]
Liberty Mutual Advertiser
Liberty Liberty Liberty Liberty Savings vary underwritten.
- [23:02]
John Davis
By Liberty Mutual Insurance Co. Affiliates excludes.
- [23:03]
Jack Daniels Advertiser
Massachusetts this episode is brought to you by Jack Daniels. Jack Daniels and music are made for each other. They share a rhythm in the craft craft of making something timeless while being a part of legendary nights. From backyard jams to sold out arenas, There's a song in every toast. Please drink responsibly. Responsibility.org Jack Daniels and Old Number 7 are registered trademarks. Tennessee Whiskey, 40% alcohol by volume. Jack Daniel Distillery, Lynchburg, Tennessee.
- [23:29]
Rebecca Buchanan
One thing I think too, for me that came out in, in reading through this is that, like, we often talk about D.C. as this political, like hub. Right. And the importance of that and the importance of that for Hardco, the importance of that for the punk scene in dc. But you also see that in the fanzines and you talk about sometimes the problematic ways that the zines are sort of talking about social issues, but also how sort of politics impacts like, even like titles of zines or images or use. Right. So can you talk a little bit about that too? Like how just being in that very political space and what that meant and what you were seeing in some of the zines.
- [24:12]
John Davis
Yeah, I think because we all live here in the D.C. area, it felt very immediate and it felt like this was a part of your neighborhood and your community, that this was happening. So I think that's a big part of why the DC punk scene has so often expressed politics and what it does. I mean, punk, of course, in general addresses politics quite frequently. But it felt natural here. I think for many younger people there. Their parents worked in politics, their parents worked in governments, and that just felt like something that was at the forefront of their consciousness. But like I said, it sort of felt like a neighborhood issue. And this is where we were protesting. This is where we were seeing things happening. And D.C. in the 80s and 90s, I mean, always, but especially then, you know, there was so much going on, there was so much intensity just in the streets. I mean, when you're going to a show, just what you would see around you. These shows were happening in areas that there was a lot of conflict. A lot of these shows were happening in very underserved areas, and you couldn't really ignore what was happening. And the punk scene in D.C. also had an activist group that still does, called positive force DC, who emerged in the mid-1980s and really helped center politics as part of what it meant to be A part of this punk scene. So it was really. It really became. Yeah, it really became this inextricable for a lot of people in the scene with what it meant to participate in DC Punk. And there would be literature at the shows kind of, you know, teaching you about maybe what this benefit show was about. I mean, that was certainly my introduction to too much in the way of politics. Because I grew up pretty ignorant about what was going on. And when I was 15 and going to my first show, that was where I saw tables full of literature and flyers that were explaining that this concert is a benefit for that. I mean, even just the benefit concert as a concept was something I really understand. Because I was going to see bands at, like, arenas and stadiums. And those were just big, big spectacles. And they were fun and entertaining and inspiring in their own way. But it felt much more personal and like something that you could be a part of and something that you could help change. And punk introduced that. And I do just think by our proximity to the federal government and by so many family members being involved in. But it just felt more like a neighborhood issue.
- [27:01]
Rebecca Buchanan
So one thing I think with zines and I saw this in looking through this, is that a lot of people get their start, whether it's being doing photography. I can't remember the name of their john. I think it might have been his name as well. But someone who was taking all these photographs and started a sort of photography zine and has documented basically a huge amount of punk during the 80s. We have people who start out just writing fanzines and becoming reporters or becoming music critics or whatever it is. So can you talk a little maybe? You know, I mean, there's tons of examples probably, but if you have a couple like that you found or that you want to highlight that, like. Because I think zines are really important for multiple reasons. But one is this. This place where people can try something that might become really, you know, a document thing. So, yeah, that was one of my.
- [27:55]
John Davis
Favorite things about this whole project in general, is being able to trace that, you know, that as. As a young person, as a teenager, that you saw that a fanzine was something that there was really very low barrier to entry to take part in. And that if you wanted to do it, you could do it. You just got to find a way and that then that forum taught you about sharing your voice and about writing about things and how to communicate and convey what you feel and what you think about things. And then you would share it with people. And often you would get Feedback and that what you had to say actually mattered to people. And that will change you, in my opinion, at least. And I just spoke to so many people through the writing of this book, through the research for this book, that they all had that same story that vanzines taught them not only a variety of skills about how to. About graphic design, about writing, about publishing, things about running a business even, but it just taught them that what they had to say matters. And that what they had to say is as important as anyone who was published in some large mainstream publication. Their opinions about music were as important as anyone's in Rolling Stone or Spin or whatever any of those dominant music magazines were. And that. That is just a very powerful aspect. That's one of the best things about the. The concept of punk, about the culture of punk, is that anyone can do it. And you just see, like, there are so many different careers that people got into coming out of it. But, you know, there were a lot of. There's a lot of overlap, you know, people. There are a lot of storytellers who came out of the punk scene, whether they're telling those stories today through being a documentary filmmaker or being an author and a writer or. Yeah. A music critic or. Or a teacher or an activist or anything. You know, it's just punk really centers the humanity. And I think that's just something that so many of us, almost all of us, learned from our participation in that. And Zines in particular were just this sandbox for trying things out and, you know, giving you a space to fail and experiment and learn. And, you know, to me, that's what makes them invaluable. So. So, yeah.
- [30:23]
Rebecca Buchanan
Yeah, I mean, I love. I love looking and seeing and. Because one of the things I think about, especially looking at photos and just. Even the bands, it'd be like, well, they interviewed all these bands, and at the time, those bands were probably not bands that people knew about. Right. Or. And Maybe there were D.C. bands who people in D.C. knew about, but others didn't. And like, these zines sort of also were a way to document and just have that sort of archive, have that history of what was going on boots to the ground with some of these, even bands that were coming through dc, Right. And so I just. Yeah, I love reading about. And then they interviewed so and so. And then they, you know, talk to, you know, whoever, who at the time was, you know, like, I'm sure many of them did not realize what. What, especially in D.C. and with hardcore, what they were creating and how long it would Last, you know, that it would be this lasting space.
- [31:20]
John Davis
That's a lot of. There's. There's a lot of the impulses overlapping in, you know, who I was as a fanzine creator in my, you know, teens and in my 20s, and who I am as an archivist now in my 40s is a. That is a lot that's similar to me and that, you know, we're trying to tell stories, we're trying to spread the word about something. You know, like, I'm an archivist currently. You know, I'm the curator of an archive of. That has performing arts collections, music, dance, theater. And there are so many stories in those collections. You know, there are thousands of stories all waiting to be told. And I love that idea of just enabling that through. Through being an archivist. And when I was working on a fanzine, it was kind of the same thing, you know, it was just sort of like, I was really moved by this community, this punk community that I was a part of, and I just really wanted people to know about it, and I wanted to. Not necessarily just sort of like, I want you to know what I think about this. I mean, that was part of it, but I just really wanted people to know that this thing was happening and to document it, to archive and then let them decide for themselves, you know, is this something that they're into. So, you know, you. You also had said, you know, like, you were in. You know, there's interviews with bands that no one had really heard yet, and. And that's so special and. And valuable now to be able to. To go back, you know, even with. With a man like Fugazi, who kind of on day one was kind of notable, but. But obviously became far more notable as they went along. And reading those earliest interviews with them in zines and fanzines is. Is incredible. Like, there's an interview with Guy Pichotto of Fugazi, where he's. I think there are maybe like 10 or 15 shows into their existence, and he's just talking about, like, wow, I've never really been in a band like this where. Where we're, you know, we go out on a tour and, you know, and we're playing shows every night. Like, I was used to my old band Rites of Spring, where we would, like, play like once a month or something like that, and you just give it your all in that one show, and then you had some time to recover. He's like, now we're doing this thing where we're playing all the time. So just reading that interview and catching them at that moment. That to me is just such a cool thing about fanzines and how they are these archives you can really engage with. And you see the humanity of the zine maker, the humanity of the musicians of the other participants in the scene that are captured within the fanzine. Like, I mean, that's just part of why I love them.
- [33:57]
Rebecca Buchanan
No, I mean I, I mean I probably say this very often when I talk about punk on this, but I am a huge. I grew up in Minnesota, right. I'm a huge husk or do fan you have. I. Well, you don't have to be, but you should be. But I really loved that, like to see those places that they came through and that they talk to people. Right? Because I am sure again, and I always grew up knowing who screw was, but nobody else probably did. If you didn't live in Minneapolis and you know, or the Twin Cities or Minnesota at a certain time, you probably didn't know. And so like to see like they came through and they were getting press and they were getting coverage, like, that's a really cool thing too. I think when you think about some of these bands who, whether they, you know, were successful or stayed around or not, that they were getting that support and in, in multiple places that they weren't getting in the mainstream press. And that's what I. One of the other things I love about zines is that, you know, whoever you are, you're, you know, you have that opportunity and people are giving you a place and giving you a voice. Yeah, yeah.
- [34:58]
John Davis
And I think at like punk, you know, as punks, you know, you know, we need to tell our own stories, you know, and, and that came out of. Because no one was going to tell those stories. Right. You know, originally the, the big magazines didn't care about punk bands. After that initial boom. You would see the Ramones or the Clash or whoever, Sex Pistols in some mainstream music magazines. But that's part of why punk went underground in the 1980s. It really wasn't covered that much in the mainstream. And if it did appear, it was in the sort of cartoonish, hyper violent caricature of what punk was. And so fanzines were the way that those stories were told. And I love the regional pride of fanzines and I love the regionality in general of fanzines and coming out of the DC scene just like you've got that pride for your scene. It was just like, that's important to me. And I love that about punk, especially during that era. Like Just how crucial regional scenes were and their unique characteristics and the unique venues that they would be at. I mean, so many of those things were one of a kind. Even if we were all kind of having shared experiences, in a way, it had its own flavor in each of those places. So whether it was Minneapolis or D.C. or LA or Austin or on and on. That's just, again, one of the things that's very captivating about punk.
- [36:37]
Rebecca Buchanan
Yeah. And one of the things I think is really important and part of what you. I mean, you will talk about the number of it, like, throughout this. Sometimes you're like, we. This zine got up to 20,000 issues or something like that. And so I think we often, when we look at the history and we look at archives of zines, you often hear about, like, those especially around music based. Right. These big, huge. Like this. This was the zine, Right. But you really are showing that there were multiple ways in which these zines were reaching changing far more than dc, Right. That's another thing I love. Like, I interviewed Swizz a while ago, like, and we talked about how, like, they never came to Minneapolis. Right. But I can learn about them because somebody sent me a zine. Right. And we see that. And so can you talk a little bit about that, too? And. And how there are other zines besides these sort of big music zines that we often hear about the importance and. And just how much these things circulate, maybe the circulation of them.
- [37:34]
John Davis
Yeah, that was something that was important to me as well. Because in kind of the big story of punk fanzines, nothing from D.C. is included in that. You know, you're going to talk about Maxim, Rock and Roll from San Francisco and Flipside from Los Angeles or Slash from Los Angeles or, you know, your Flesh from Minneapolis or Touch and Go from Chicago and, you know, Punk from New York City, on and on. And dc, for whatever reason, just never really seemed to cross over that national threshold. Even though there were some that kind of got included in the conversation, like Thrill Seeker or Truly Needy during the hardcore era in the early 80s that came out of DC. But, yeah, I love to talk about those ones where they made 20 copies and distributed it to friends. But then those friends were in these bands or were in this scene that kind of then went out and took those ideas that were talked about in that zine and spread them. And it's just that it grew from this very tiny seed of a zine that only had 10 or 20 or 50 copies made. That is a lot of what's most interesting and exciting to me about it. I am very fascinated by the big zines like Maxim, Rock and Roll, and that. That had such an impact on people. You know, you'll see that that name repeated all throughout my book of where people, especially in the 80s, were saying, like, oh, well, you know, Maximum Rock and Roll was like Time magazine to me or something like that. And that inspired them to do their own thing. So, you know, I wanted to make sure that was conveyed as well. But yeah, I'm really most fascinated by kind of those smaller ones that made a dent, even though it was just, you know, a few dozen copies or a few hundred copies or maybe even a thousand copies. There's one called Teenage Gang Devs that came out in the early 90s that Aaron and Don Smith, two siblings made. Aaron went on to be in the band Bratmobile. But she was talking about how, yeah, we made a thousand copies, which is actually kind of a lot, but she was saying, so it was only a thousand copies, but it really got seen by the right people and people would see it and talk about it and word would spread and they'd get written about. And then kind of through word of mouth and through being written about in mainstream things like Sassy or something like that, then it just broke open and they would get all of this interest and that sort of trail of connections that would happen for a zine is also very fascinating to me. But yes, I'm quite interested in sort of the microcirculation zines, some which are editions of one that, you know, I came across and some of my research that were just sort of bound with needle and thread and handwritten and that was it. It was just that one copy. So from, from 1 to 100,000 or whatever. Maybe some of them were. It's. It's all pretty fascinating to me.
- [40:36]
Rebecca Buchanan
Oh yeah, that's. I mean, that's one of the things I love too. It's like, okay, someone published one or two Z. They did like one or two copies of this and. But, but, but they're there, right? And they exist. And you get to kind of see into this fabulousness and this fabulous history that you don't normally get to. So there are tons. I mean, I don't know how many zines you cover in here. I mean, you cover hundreds right in here. I don't know if you know how many. But I was just going to ask like, I mean, are there like a couple that you want to kind of highlight or talk? Like, are there any that you want to like talk about that. We haven't kind of discussed that. Yeah, that you want to just put a shout out while we're talking.
- [41:15]
John Davis
I should like determine the answer for which is exactly how many zines are included in this? I don't really know because yeah, I would say like there's a couple hundred in there. But for me, I guess if I were to highlight some, like, not to be self centered, but I just think that the ones that I first read when I was getting into punk in the early 90s, I loved them and they really. They just inspired me in. In a way that I would always continue to seek in the years to follow. You know, there were two zines that were made by people who I went to high school with and they were each two years ahead of me. So I was, I think a sophomore. They were seniors. And one of the zines was called Fake and the other one was called who cares? And they were just so cool to me. Like they. I had grown up reading Spin and Rolling Stone and whatever Option, you know, any of those kind of music mags that you would go get at Tower Records or at Borders or any of those places where I as someone not really in the know would go. And the era where fanzines were on those newsstands had not quite arrived yet. So you. So you were sort of stuck with those other options like Option and you know, and Pulse was. Was a magazine that Tower Records produced that was free. I learned a lot from those, but they weren't fanzines. So when I was introduced just by someone handing me a copy of Fake and of who cares, like they really. That was a new. That was a door opening for me. And it felt like, wow, like people in my school made these things and they look great and they're so cool and the writing is smart and opinionated and like meaningful. And that was just what I wanted to be doing because I loved music. I had plenty of opinions about it and it had not really occurred to me to share my opinions on it yet. So reading that was. Was a huge inspiration. So those would be two fanzines that really meant a lot to me. And I thought they were really cool because they just bridged two styles of fanzine. You know, because was the early 90s with the rise in accessibility of desktop publishing software that people started to have on their home computers, PageMaker on their Apple IIC or whatever at home. So some zines started to look a little more pro in their layout. But there were other people who still were doing cut and paste fanzines in the traditional punk way where they just go and cut stuff out and use photocopiers to blow up or reduce images or to reproduce text or all that. Like those two zines that I mentioned, especially fake, you know, kind of combined those aesthetics and that, that was just sort of, that, that just forged something for me to read those. So to me they're very special and I hope that people will track them down and, and, and see what is special for them, for themselves.
- [44:17]
Liberty Mutual Advertiser
It's okay not to be perfect with finances. Experian is your big financial friend and here to help. Did you know you can get matched with credit cards on the app? Some cards are labeled no Ding decline, which means if you're not approved, they won't hurt your credit scores. Download the Experian app for free today. Applying for no ding decline cards won't hurt your credit scores. If you aren't initially approved. Initial approval will result in a hard inquiry which may impact your credit scores.
- [44:45]
Nordstrom Advertiser
Experian.
- [44:50]
Miu Miu Advertiser
Adjective used to describe an individual whose spirit is unyielding, unconstrained. One who navigates life on their own terms, effortlessly. They do not always show up on time, but when they arrive, you notice an individual confident in their contradictions. They know the rules, but behave as if they do not exist. New Teen, the new fragrance by Miu Miu defined by you.
- [45:18]
Home Depot Advertiser
The holidays have arrived at the Home Depot and we're here to help bring the excitement with decor for every part of your home. Check out our wide assortment of easy to assemble pre lit trees so you can spend less time setting up and more time celebrating. And bring your holiday spirit outdoors with unique decor like one of our Santa inflatables. Whatever your style, find the right pieces at the right prices this holiday season at the Home Depot.
- [45:49]
Rebecca Buchanan
So I also have to ask, I mean, I mean I could talk about 90s zines forever, right? But you do also talk about the zines in the 21st century, right? And I think it's really important because we have so many people who often say, well, aren't zines just blogs? Right? Or like the. That's online. And it's like, you know, that's what I read online, right? And you have to continue to say no, a Z, like a PDF online is a Z. A PDF of a zine, right? That is not a zine, is not an online thing thing. So can you talk a little bit about that like 21st? Like what the more modern stuff that's going on too? Because yes, we get into and All I think the older stuff is important, but it's also important to know that this is not something that's dead.
- [46:35]
John Davis
Yeah, exactly. And that was important to me to convey in this book that this is something that is ongoing. And there have been a number of documentaries on the D.C. punk scene. There have been a lot of books on the D.C. punk scene scene. And there have been exhibits. I mean, I could keep going. And podcasts. And there's just a lot of things that we're focusing on, especially on the 80s and maybe the early 90s, and then it just kind of tails off as if that was the end of it. And the people who made those documentaries would say, oh, like, no, no, I'm definitely not saying that. I just wanted to zoom in on this one. Particularly important. So that's not a criticism of any of those stories or people. But. But I did think there was this big part of the story, that there was a lot more room to explore and to document. And the scene in D.C. today and certainly in the last 25 years is amazing. It's still very vibrant. There's still historic venues like 9:30 Club and Black Hat are still happening, but there are still cool punk DIY venues like Rhizome or Comet or Quarry House or all these places where. Where shows are still happening. We go to shows all the time. And the zines as well. So, yes, in the early 2000s, into the 2010s, was there a little bit of an ebb of that? Yes, there was. And I think that was kind of interesting. And I try to talk about that a little bit in the book where it's like, we maybe thought, okay, well, paper's kind of going away, we're going to move to the Internet. This is actually great. It's much cheaper. Anyone in the world can see it right away. And it's very immediate. And I don't, you know, like, my problem when with the zines I was making as a zine maker is it took me so long to put them together and I would, you know, spend like almost a year putting an issue together. So that was very exciting to me that you could just make a website and there it was and. And you have an ezine, as they were called in some circles, and that, like, pretty quickly it became clear that that just wasn't going to be a thing. And I even tried to show with a screenshot in the book, like, there was a zine, one of the best looking zines that came out of the DC punk scene in the 90s. Was called Uno Moss. And Jim Sa is a photographer, just like an incredible photographer and just super smart magazine with like, great writing and coverage of punk, but also like almost these, like, lit mag sensibilities where there'd be art and photography and just. Just an incredible zine. And then he tried to make the shift to the. To the Internet in the early 2000s, because it's like, great. This is this the way. And it just didn't convey. And there are a lot of people who talk about that, and I quote them in the book on how, yeah, we all kind of tried this and it really didn't work out. And then sort of blogs emerged, and then we talked about, maybe for a minute we thought that was going to be a thing. And then we sort of talk about why that kind of petered out a little bit. And they still exist. And I am actually still a reader of multiple music blogs, but it's not the same as a fanzine. And then you finally kind of, in the 2010s, start to have the re emergence of the print fanzine again, the tactile fanzine. But they've also shifted. It's really more zines than fanzines, and it's much more about personal expression and art and comics, as it kind of shifted in that direction, away from fandom. So that's a distinction that I kind of wanted to make, but I really wanted to talk about the DC Zine Fest, which is this amazing thing that happens in D.C. every year, and it's been more than a decade now that they're doing that. And that's incredible. And there are people who make fanzines still in dc, and some of them actually kind of mimic the look of old fanzines, but some of them don't, and they're just completely new types of things. But all of them do the same thing that fanzines always did, which is sharing your opinions on this music, on this culture that excites you and that you were a fan of and that you want to talk about. Fandom is at the core of all of it. That is what excites me, and it excites all these people. So I just really thought it was crucial to have this chapter that didn't just say, like, oh, yeah, well, punk just kind of petered out and ended because maybe I lost interest or whatever. And that's not true. It's still going. It's still vibrant. It's not as big as it was. There are no bands playing at the Washington Monument to thousands of people. Like Fugazi did, but there's still, like, amazing punk shows still happening around town all the time. And maybe it'll get big again or maybe it won't, but it kind of doesn't matter, I don't think. I just want it to just keep going.
- [51:31]
Rebecca Buchanan
So I'm going to ask you two final questions. So one is, and you sort of alluded, you sort of mentioned some things earlier, but I don't know if there's anything you want to add. Like, what do you hope that people get out of this? Right. What? You know, you put this together, you have this. This, like, you know, treasure trove of zines in dc. What is your goal? Like, what? Yeah. What do you want this book to do?
- [51:54]
John Davis
Yeah. Awareness of DC's role in this broader mosaic of fanzine creation in punk, you know, in the United States. You know, again, we talked about ones from other cities that, you know, like the ones I mentioned from the 70s and 80s, but even into the 90s, like punk planets out of Chicago, that was just something that everybody was reading when I was in college and we're in the punk scene you were eagerly awaiting. I think that was a bimonthly zine. And just when they'd come along. Ooh. And it changed. That zine changed graphic design for not just fanzines, but for records. The way that the aesthetic of graphic design in indie and punk rock was influenced, in my opinion, by Punk Planet Fancy. But there was all kinds of cool stuff happening in D.C. too, and it just isn't really known and what DC is known for, these kind of larger things. You know, DC is known for Straight Edge and Emo and Riot Girl and, you know, these things that came out of here. And I want it. I want it to be known how important fanzines were to all of those things emerging, you know, Riot Grrrl comes out of a zine that is created in D by people who were temporarily staying here. But DC is a huge part of that. The first Rye Girl meetings at the Positive Force House in Arlington, Virginia. Zines enabled all of those things. And I just want that to just be known and to have it all in one book that people can kind of understand and learn more and realize that DC is about a lot of things, and that includes these fanzines. So, yes, DC's place in that discussion is something I really want to come out of that. And then I would just love it if people went back and found the zines using archives to be inspired and then to create their own thing, because as an archivist here at Maryland, we have students coming in all the time. I just had a class here yesterday where we were looking at zines for an hour and a half, and I was sort of of trying to teach these undergrads about what a zine was, why it mattered, and not really about the minutiae so much about what was covered and what that, but just what a zine even represents and its importance and why it is relevant to them. And I think they understood. And so that's just something I just really want know DC's role in that, to be a part of that. So. Yes. So to sum up would be. The point would be to secure DC's place in that DC in that. I'm sorry, in that zine mosaic. And then also to inspire people to like, keep creating these things and to realize that the zine today is a relevant, you know, medium for people to work in. It is not nostalgia. It is not a retro thing. When someone makes a zine today, it is a 100% meaningful thing and the utility has changed. But the, to me, like, the importance and the power has not.
- [55:12]
Rebecca Buchanan
No, that's one of my favorite things. When you see people, like, their eyes light up when they see zines, and then they actually want to go create their own. It's the best.
- [55:19]
John Davis
Yes, it happens.
- [55:20]
Rebecca Buchanan
I know. I love it. So my final question, like, the book is just. Just came out, so self promotion, whether anything that's happening with the book where people can get it. If you have anything else you're working on that you want to promote, but promote away.
- [55:35]
John Davis
Oh, yes. The book came out October 1st and it is. Yeah, I think it's in bookstores everywhere, hopefully, and certainly available through Georgetown University Press's website if you want to order it from there. I will be doing a number of events to promote or to talk about the book throughout this fall around the D.C. area. Also up in Baltimore, also up in Brooklyn at Books of Magic in Brooklyn on November 14th and Atomic Books in Baltimore November 8th here in the D.C. area. Ian MacKay and I are going to talk about the book at Politics and Prose in D.C. on October 29th. Yeah, just be. Just anywhere someone wants to talk about this book, I'll be up for it because again, just sort of want to spread that awareness about this community and this culture and. And try to inspire people to just keep it going.
- [56:35]
Rebecca Buchanan
Awesome. John, thank you for talking with me again. John Davis, who wrote Keep your ear to the ground, a history of punk fanzines in Washington, dc. Thanks for being on new books and popular culture.
- [56:46]
John Davis
Thank you. I really appreciate it.