Podcast Summary

Podcast: New Books Network
Host: Dr. Christina Gessler
Guest: Jonn Elledge, author of A Brief History of the World in 47 Borders: Surprising Stories Behind the Lines on Our Maps (Experiment, 2024)
Date: September 25, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode of New Books Network features an insightful conversation between Dr. Christina Gessler and journalist-author Jonn Elledge about his new book exploring the curious, convoluted, and often arbitrary stories behind some of the world's most significant borders. The discussion traverses the origins and evolution of borders, their impact on national identities, the myths and realities embedded in maps, and the sometimes comical, sometimes tragic, human drama behind the lines we take for granted.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Jonn Elledge’s Background and the Book’s Genesis

• Background:

  • Jonn Elledge describes himself as a journalist turned author, with roots in urbanism and a long-standing fascination with maps and border stories.
  • “I do just kind of write about things I find interesting, really.” (02:51)
  • Edited the website City Metric, which explored cities, transport systems, and ran a popular series on quirky boundaries.

• Book’s Inspiration:

  • Personal fascination with maps, sparked by a childhood viewing of the BBC documentary Tales from the Map Room, and professional interest through his writing.
  • Political events like the Brexit referendum and Scotland’s independence vote intensified his curiosity.
  • “With those events here and with kind of the sort of resurgence of nationalism as a global political force, I just found myself getting more and more interested in where these identities come from and why, why people give up so much of themselves to it when … the nation state is a relatively modern invention.” (03:02)

Why 47 Borders?

• The number is arbitrary; he wrote until the book was full and the deadline loomed, aiming for interesting stories and balance, not exhaustive coverage.
• “So there’s no magic reason why it’s 47 ... To some extent, I think it’s probably because Buzzfeed broke everyone’s brain…” (05:00)
• Jonn jokes about the potential for a Volume 2:
  • “If people are upset with that, you invite them to tell your publisher. Because then you get to give us volume two.” (06:02)

Definitions: Border vs. Boundary

• Recaps a conversation with Philip Steinberg (Durham University):
  • Boundary: A zero-thickness line where territories meet; more physical/divisive.
  • Border: A point of crossing, often administrative or political (e.g., airports); more connective.
• “Boundaries are about division, borders about connection.” (07:43)

Challenging Assumptions: The Map as Natural

• Most people default to seeing the world as a political map, but this is a modern product, not a natural or inevitable one.
• Nation-states are an 80-year-old concept for most of the world, not an eternal truth.
  • “This is one of those assumptions that’s so embedded in us that it kind of takes a moment to realize it is an assumption.” (09:46)

Key Functions of Borders / Foundational Concepts

1. Borders have always existed, though not always in current forms.
2. The interplay between physical geography and political identity is complex.
3. Borders can retain influence long after they disappear (e.g., Egypt, Poland).

• “The identity that was kind of created by those borders can sometimes die with the political unit, but not always...” (12:25)
• Memorable Story: The symbolic resonance of the union of Upper and Lower Egypt.
  • “Even though that boundary had long gone, it did kind of retain resonance for not just centuries, but millennia.” (16:18)

The Illogic and Politics of Border-Making

• Often borders result from ego, imperial convenience, or sheer arbitrariness.
• Example: The “unnatural” straight line of the US-Canada border, drawn by diplomats, not by nature.
  • “So I wrote a column … about Donald Trump’s comments about the U.S. Canada border … The headline was something like, he’s not actually entirely wrong, because he isn’t.” (16:56)

Major Historical Milestones and Shifts

Pre-1500 World: Fuzzy Nations

• Nationhood once was “fuzzy”; towns and territories were traded, and movement was easier for many.
• Maps and the printing revolution around 1500 allowed political leaders to control and conceptualize land differently.
• Mapping and imperialism are closely connected.
  • “To do that, you do need a map of a certain quality … And that’s really only in sort of the 16th, 17th centuries that the maps of that quality … start to come on stream.” (24:07)

The Peace of Westphalia (1648) & Sovereignty

• Often cited as the birth of modern state sovereignty, but doesn’t stipulate territorial integrity as clearly as commonly believed.
• “There’s a number of examples of this in the book where a phrase that I sort of assumed I understood turns out not to mean exactly what people suggest it does…” (30:41)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Lord Salisbury:

  • “We have been engaged in drawing lines upon maps where no white man’s feet have ever trod. We have been giving away mountains and rivers and lakes to each other, only hindered by the small impediment that we never knew exactly where the mountains and rivers and lakes were.” (37:54)
  • Jonn notes, “Nobody has ever been so scathingly honest about what European imperialism in Africa especially meant...” (37:54)

• Europe and Asia: Why Two Continents?

  • Dissects the oddity that Europe is not just a peninsula of Asia, a belief cemented by geopolitics, not geography.
  • “The existence of Europe as a separate thing from Asia is very bound up in kind of the rise of a medieval Christendom and things like the Crusades…” (40:26)

Contemporary Legacies: Technology and Borders

The Mapmaker’s Dilemma

• In the digital age, companies like Google face political and legal pressure to tailor maps to national perspectives.
  • The example of Crimea post-2014: Google shows Crimea as Russian within Russia, but Ukrainian in Ukraine. (46:55)
  • “Maps are expected to keep up in a way they never used to. Once upon a time … you would know you were looking at something from the past. … Now … you expect that they will be [up to date].” (46:55)

Externalities & Modern Oddities

Time Zones as Political Tools

• China, for national unity, uses one time zone (Beijing’s) across vast territory, which results in Uyghur minority protests by setting their watches differently—a protest that can lead to imprisonment.
  • “One of the ways that Uyghurs like to protest against repression coming from Beijing is to set the watch to Xinjiang time ... there are stories … of Uyghurs literally being arrested and locked up for having watches set to the wrong time.” (50:45)
• Modern time zones tied to the invention of railways and efforts at standardization.

Closing Reflections & Takeaways

• Jonn Elledge hopes listeners will question the solidity of borders, the reality of nations, and how much loyalty should be given to these constructs.
• “I do, I suppose the thing I hope people will come away with is just kind of like an urge to rethink some of their assumptions about what nationalism means … whether a flag or a nation is always worth one’s loyalty or whether there are … smaller groups ... more deserving of that respect.” (54:52)
• He encourages curiosity above dogma:
  • “I’m just someone who’s interested in this stuff and reads a lot and enjoys researching and writing about things.” (54:52)

Important Segment Timestamps

• [01:55] Introduction to Jonn Elledge and his background
• [03:02] Inspiration for the book
• [05:00] Why 47 borders?
• [07:43] Definitions: border vs. boundary
• [09:46] The bias toward seeing borders as “natural”
• [12:25] Three key foundational concepts about borders
• [16:18] Egypt: a historical lesson on the longevity of erased borders
• [16:56] The U.S.-Canada border as “artificial and unnatural”
• [24:07] How the rise of maps and imperialism changed border concepts
• [30:41] The Peace of Westphalia and misunderstood history
• [37:54] Lord Salisbury quote and “Scramble for Africa”
• [40:26] Why Europe is not a peninsula in Asia
• [46:55] The Mapmaker’s Dilemma and digital cartography
• [50:45] Notes on time zones and political protest in China
• [54:52] Jonn’s hopes for listeners and closing thoughts

Recommended For

Anyone interested in history, geography, politics, or simply the often bizarre, human side of the lines that define our countries. The episode and book both offer brisk, witty, thought-provoking stories and challenge listeners to rethink the world’s maps as more than just static facts, but as ongoing stories shaped by human choices, rivalries, accidents, and ambitions.