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Jorge Coronado, “Portraits in the Andes: Photography and Agency, 1900-1950” (U Pittsburgh Press, 2018)
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In Portraits in the Andes: Photography and Agency, 1900-1950 (University of Pittsburgh Press, 2018), Jorge Coronado, Professor of Spanish and Portuguese at Northwestern University, examines photography to further the argument that intellectuals grafted...
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Hello, everybody.
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This is Marshall Po. I'm the founder and editor of the New Books Network. And if you're listening to this, you know that the NBN is the largest academic podcast network in the world. We reach a worldwide audience of 2 million people. You may have a podcast or you may be thinking about starting a podcast. As you probably know, there are challenges basically of two kinds. One is technical. There are things you have to know in order to get your podcast produced and distributed. And the second is, and this is the biggest problem, you need to get an audience. Building an audience in podcasting is the hardest thing to do today. With this in mind, we at the NBM have started a service called NBN Productions. What we do is help you create a podcast, produce your podcast, distribute your podcast, and we host your podcast. Most importantly, what we do is we distribute your podcast to the NBN audience. We've done this many times with many academic podcasts and we would like to help you. If you would be interested in talking to us about how we can help you with your podcast, please contact us. Just go to the front page of the New Books Network and you will see a link to NBN Productions. Click that, fill out the form, and we can talk. Welcome to the New Books Network.
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Welcome, everyone. This is Ryan Tripp. I'm back again for the Native American Studies Channel from the New Books Network. I'm here today with Professor Jorge Coronado. He is professor of Spanish and Portuguese actually, at Northwestern University. Welcome, Professor Coronado.
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C
Thanks very much, Ryan. Thank you for the invitation especially.
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So we're here today to talk about his new book published earlier this year, Portraits in the photography and agency, 1900-1950. Now, I first want to chat about this striking Rodriguez cover, circa 1940. Can you maybe touch upon a little bit are your reasons for selecting this particular portrait?
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C
Sure, there are several, and I entirely agree with you. It's a very striking photo. One reason that it's so striking is because it's actually what's called a foto olio, which is an illuminated photograph. It means that it's been painted by hand. In this case, it's Sebastian Rodriguez's brother, Braulio Rodriguez. Painted, painted the image. So it has color, which none of the other images in the book have. The practical part of that is that because there weren't going to be color plates, this is really kind of the only way to get a color photograph into the book. And so I was. I was delighted to be able to have it on the. On the COVID in terms of the content of the book, I think it does a really good job of communicating some of the issues that we'll probably talk about that have to do with the ways in which everyday Andeans sought to portray themselves in, in studio photography.
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So what prompted you to research and study studio portraiture in the early 20th century Southern Andes? Why do you focus on photographic production between Cusco and La Paz, particularly on portraiture rather than, for example, identification photography?
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C
Yeah, so I think one of the reasons for photography. I'm a scholar of literature and in previous work I'd looked a lot at Indigenismo, which is a cultural and political movement that sought to revindicate indigenous peoples all over Latin America, really. But it was perhaps especially pronounced in places like Mexico, Peru, places with large indigenous populations. So one of the things about the previous study, the research for it, one of the features of it was that as I was doing that research, I kept finding these photographs and they allowed me to understand the people that Indigenismo thought about. Lower class Andeans, particularly those who were racially identified as indigenous, but also mestizos. Right. In a different way. Right. So they gave me an access to those subjects that literature, that literature didn't do in the same way. Right. So the question about identification photography versus portraiture is also really important because identification photography generally was not designed to portray this sort of intimate subjectivity of individual subjects.
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Right.
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It's, it's, it's used for estate's purposes, for identification within state systems like, you know, passport photos or even ID photographs you would find at a, at a big company. So I was interested in portraiture because it did something else. Right. As, as opposed to that sort of photography.
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A
You employ the term modern to suggest the ways in which a technology of vision was cast by both photographers and subjects into practices and objects that accessed ownership of aspects of their cultural, political and economic milieu. Why did doing so require an important theoretical reinterpretation of photography?
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C
Yeah, that, that's, that's a, a, a big question and I think a really important one for the, for the book. The term modern is, I mean, polysematic. Right. There's lots of ways of interpreting it and people have, have, have, have interpreted it in many, many different ways, including myself in this particular case. I was interested in photography because it carried the meaning of kind of technological modernity. That is to say, it was a, it was a technology that kind of immediately meant access to modernization and the latest technology as it had been developed in Europe and by the early 20th century, in which I focused the book that technology had become so cheap that it was available to everybody. The important thing for, for the theoretical reinterpretation of photography that goes on within the book is the difference between photography as a. As a scientific practice that tries to capture reality, right. Which is, I think, one way in which you can imagine the origins of photography in Europe. That is to say, it was a technology that allowed, you know, the, the. The capture of the real. Right? So in some sense a sort of scientific achievement, right. That finally allowed access to reality in a way that other forms of representation didn't. Right. That, of course is also the case in Latin America. But what I focus on with portraiture is the ways in which consumption, right, and the buying, right, and ordering and fabrication of studio portraits has an overwhelming importance within its history in the region. Right. That is to say, I think one would have to consider consumption as the kind of predominant way in which photography took root and was expressed especially in that period, but even before, right, in the late 19th century. It just became more popularized by the 20th century. So the reinterpretation of photography has to do with. With the movement from a technology that portrays the real sort of scientific technology to one, and scientific Muslim quotation marks to one that's thought of from the angle of consumption. What does it mean to buy and fabricate these images?
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On that note, can you describe for our listeners the first photograph in the book, the Miners, and explain further why you argue that the miners in this photograph represented an imitation of observed behavior as well as an act of self fabrication vis a vis the other image of engineers or managers for the Cerro de Pasco Mining Corporation.
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C
Right. So that's a really striking image as well, coincidentally by the same photographer we're just talking about for the COVID image. So that image is. Is interesting for me in terms of introducing the book because it has a lot of these aspects of, you know, people fabricating images. And in this case, fabricating has to do with the ways in which they pose. And it's a very elaborate photo in some sense with, you know, the beer and the cigarettes and the mining tools and the dirty clothes. It has to do with the ways in which they portray themselves and, and choose to portray themselves within that image. But also with my particular experience with that archive, when I found this image in that same archive, there was another photograph of these foreign, right, North American or perhaps European engineers who posed in a very similar way but in different clothes. And they look much more upscale, right? With suits and fine glasses and these sorts of things. So one of the things that I quickly surmised was that there's a sort of learning going on of these everyday Andeans. They see how photographs are being produced for others, often elites, foreign elites, right. And they, they learn these sorts of postures and, and really the fabrication of, of self portraits from them and then. Right. Employ these strategies to make pictures of themselves. Obviously it's not just copying. They, you know, insert particular things. These two miners, for example, insert all those objects I've, I've talked about. But they also, you know, in sort of, sort of body language that, that's fascinating. So I hope that that answers the.
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Question what is the constitutive contradiction of lettered in de renismo and how did it frame your comments on southern Andean photography? How did Cusqueno Darismo in particular aim to represent the splendors of the Incan past within a visual record of modernity?
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C
So the constituent contradiction of rhetoric in the heismo has to do with the interpretation of it from a kind of historical standpoint of a literature and really a politics. Right. That had to do a lot with an ascendant middle class. That is to say there are often what we would call mestizos, right. Middle class mestizos who were voicing indigenismo. Right. And these texts were, were about indigenous peoples, right. But they were not for indigenous peoples for, for many reasons. Many indigenous peoples couldn't read. Many indigenous peoples were outside the sort of circles where, within which print culture circulated. So that's a sort of, that, that's a sort of, you know, quick view onto that contradiction. And that's why, as I think I mentioned earlier, I was so interested in, in photography, because in a lot of the photography from the period, I'd say even the majority, I think a lot of that, of that self representation of indigenous peoples and mestizo lower class people. Right. It takes place within the photography. So in that sense it gives you a vision onto subjects and a sector of society. That letter and the couldn't do. Right. The other question about how Couskeno and to present the splendors of the income past within the record of modernity. There's many instances of this. If one goes back into the visual record, for example, there's all sorts of archaeological photographs, some taken by many of the same photographers that I study who also did studio portraiture. You have, for example, these glorious images done by Chambi, famously appearing in National Geographic, right. Very early on of Machu Picchu and other ruins. You also have theater troops of elite groups who dressed up as Incas, right. Within that same visual record. So you can find there's a rich array of these representations that are available out there and they form a nice counterpoint with the sorts of images I'm looking at in this book.
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Can you describe the sources that conceived of photography as an illustration and in so doing insisted on hierarchical relationships between intellectual lettered practice and photographic images?
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C
Yeah. So there's a lot of these, some of which I just mentioned. If you, if you look at archaeology, right, clearly in the archaeological books from the period you have, you have photographs serving as illustration. So the archaeologists or the scientists, the anthropologist, right, will, will make a point and say and here's the proof and there's a, there's an image. Right. I think that another example which I touch on in Portraits from the Andes is a book that's not so well known, but it's fascinating. It's kind of one of the early books of tourism in Peru. It's called Cusco Historico. And there photographs that are attributed in the book to Chandi as well as to another photographer who I think is, is anonymous, they serve a similar function. Right. And it's quite striking because there are many ways in which one could think about interpreting those images. Sometimes there's a tension between what the, what the authors of the book, of the text say and what the, what the images. Nevertheless, there's an effort to, to make these images illustrative and therefore put them in a sort of. In a secondary position. Right. To, to text. Right.
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So on a related note, who contributed to the Cusco school of photography? And why does the variety of photographers from Cusco to La Paz stand as an indicator for an examination of Southern Indian photography's value for the study of modern cultural and social history, especially in this circulation of photographs and photography's attendant presence in spaces and with social actors with which elite cultural practices often did not come into contact.
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C
Right. So the, the Cusco school of photography in, in scare quotes, right. Is a, is a term that's used to designate a wide ranging group, anywhere between 20 and, you know, upwards of 40 photographers who, who were active in Cusco in the, in the early 20th century. In the book, I don't, I, I indicate the term, but I, I actually, I try not to use it too much in part because as a term it sort of communicates the idea that there's a, there's an art movement or everybody kind of is working in concert. And I think that the photographers in Cusco who were indeed many. Right, Were, were not working in such a concerted way or at least I found no evidence of, of that sort of kind of collaborative, right. Group think or, or, or visual efforts. Right. On, on, on the part of this very broad ranging array of photographers I found evidence of context, of course, right? There's, there's context between them. They often showed studios and worked together and they're faceted in history. So, so the second part of your question has to do with the breadth of the photographers. While some other photographers, especially earlier on in the 20th century, work with elites, right? So a good example there is again Martin Chambi or Figueroa Asnar, who is not a photographer in the sense of a studio photographer, but he was taking pictures of, of his elite family members. While some of them work with elites, many of them, you know, went out into the market and started working especially as a, as the technology got cheaper with lower class individuals. So you have people like, you have people like the, the Cordero brothers, right, who, sorry, not the, but the Cavarena, sorry, you have photographers like the Cavarena brothers who, you know, in, in my research and in interviews, but also in the visual record took, took photographs of lower class Andeans and many of them. And it's my sense that many of these photographers were dedicated to that sort of work. So the value for the historical record is enormous because you have access to the self representations of those people who had no direct access to writing, which is a technology of the powerful in many cases during this period. So that's what I mean by its special value for understanding the society of lower class MBNs.
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How did Southern Andean photography create sense through the presentation of bodies? And why did portraiture's wide dissemination as a practice become the primary way of representing subjects in private space?
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C
Yeah, that's a good question. And it goes to the importance of not only posture, but also, or pose, right? But also dress within the images. If you look at any of these, these portraits, there's an enormous amount of care that goes into not only the, the way that the face is presented, that the body is held, but also the, the details, the, the, the sort of objects, right? From clothes to jewelry to shoe wear to, you know, many other things, right? And quite often little things are included within the, within the photograph. Like clocks, right, that, that create sense within the image. And by create sense I mean they portray a specific meaning, right, to the, to the, that the person in the image has, for example, whether this person considers themselves, you know, a modern miner Right. Who. Who now has, you know, a day's wages that can be spent on things like photography or whether, you know, the person is able to simply access lots of consumer goods. Right. And what that means about the. About the particular person. So I think that what we're challenged to imagine when viewing photographs like that is what the meaning of those images is. Within the very private spaces. Within most of this studio, portraiture circulated. Most of it is small scale, it's for families and for friends, and it's circulated in albums, for example. It's true that some of it was shown in storefronts of the studios, but most of it wasn't. So that's what I mean by, you know, it's a primary way of people understanding, you know, who they are and who they want to be within the small spaces of family, of domestic spaces. Right. Which, which in any case are. Are, I think, overwhelmingly important in the. In the period and region.
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A
How and why did the norms of portraiture within Andean image trans images transform into photography that recorded the complexity of human relationships in terms of how figures relate to others, both seen and unseen?
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C
This has a lot to do with the previous question, because I think one of the points that's really important is the social ties that are evident either within the image or as a result of the images. For example, there are some extraordinary images of miners, as you, as you pointed out, but other images as well, on the record of workers sort of posing together, in which you're trying to communicate the idea either of a group and its labor, or in some cases, an idea of the effect that labor has on a family. There are images of recently arrived migrants who began working in, for example, Moroccocha in the mining camps. And those images are extraordinarily rich in communicating both the ways in which traditions are brought from rural culture in the Andes to these more modern urban spaces, and also the way in which those traditions are in some cases upended and also in some cases readapted to the. To the particular. To the particular context that. That these Andeans find themselves in.
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A
You believe that it is necessary to understand these images, as always, documentary through the method of invention, that is, as elaborate compositions that strive, as do other forms of cultural practice, to communicate the reality in which they are immersed? How did you assess the historical punctum of such images, especially in regards to performances of modernity and insertions of identity and gender knowledge into photographic fields by.
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C
Documentary through the method of invention? What I'm trying to get at is the peculiar access, the particular and peculiar access that these images provide to the historical and social context, right? So I think what my interpretive lens has stayed away from is the idea that these images are simply fictions or inventions that have little to do with their social and historical context. On the contrary, what I've argued is that, yes, they are in some sense there are inventions of the of the self or of the of the family. Right. But I think that the self is closely related to family in many instances here. But that doesn't mean that it can be separated from the historical context. What I mean by this is quite often these fictions that are communicated in the visual record are extraordinarily useful for negotiating this sort of symbolic imaginary that one would presumably need, or that these modern Indians would presumably need to insert themselves into their context. It allows them to imagine who they are within this particular history, within these particular spaces, sort of in the ways in which I've spoken about some of these group photographs right. Previously in our conversation, in terms of the historical punctum, punctub is a term that I picked up from the great theorist of photography, Roland Barthes. And what's interesting to me there are the ways in which there's a series of particular objects which Barthes was quite right, stand out in any photograph for me. What's interesting is the Ways in which, in this particular photographic archive of Andean portraits, these objects point to the ways in which these particular subjects are inserting themselves into their modern moment and how, for example, a richness of textiles allows presumably indigenous woman to understand the ways in which she can not only survive within. Within her. Within her contemporaneous moment, but also thrive within it. Right. And that's referenced to another photograph by the. By the. Which is just extraordinarily, extraordinarily rich in. In the ways in which it portrays the importance of being able to acquire goods like textiles.
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A
Can you further elaborate as well on the significance of omissions and groups, family, individualist photography, as well as the sartorial politics of indigenous attire for Incasi, Indiano or otherwise? How did gender play a role, for instance, in photography of female subjects in Koyata?
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C
Right, so there's a couple of really interesting questions there. The first one has to do with this feature, which I point out at several points in Portage in the Andes of these images. It's a feature that involves erasing of images of people within the photograph. So what I mean is there'll be a portrait, and in the portrait there'll be somebody who's been scratched out, either on the plate or on the actual print, or at some point during the process, the image has been modified so that that person doesn't appear. So there's obviously also framing. Right. That obviously would include some people and not include others. Right. But I think with this image of a hand actually removing an object or a person in a photograph is really important because it points to the ways in which these photographs aren't simply recordings of the real, but they're. They're fabricated. Right. To portray families or individuals in particular ways. Right. And this is done at the behest of the sitters, Right. In all likelihood, probably also at the. At the suggestion of the photographers. And it's done for. For an array of reasons. Right. We know some of them, we don't know others. In terms of your, Your other question which has to do with, you know, in indigenous attire, gender. Right. The. The question of the pollera is probably, I think, the best way to tackle that. The polye, as you know, is a. Is a long skirt typically associated, many skirts actually typically associated with indigenous women. Rosana Baragan has written about this in the Bolivian context, a very, very rich race. She detailed the history of this in. In the record that I've. That I've looked at. The boyer appears both in the Peruvian and Bolivian context. And it's a particularly rich way in which connections to indigenous cultures are. Are portrayed, are communicated in the Bolivian visual record especially the Pollera is just present all over the place in a way which it isn't really in. In Peru, right? In. In Lima, for example, at the same period. One would have a very hard time finding the Pollera portrait in that way in the Bolivian context. It's clearly a point of pride, by which I mean a point of indigenous identity that wants to be projected by the subjects who use them right through the. Through the portrait. And it's also an indicator, given the specific historical context there of the. The. The social and economic mobility right, of the economic wherewithal of indigenous right women within urban space. It's also this in the highland Peruvian context. But again, my sense has been that it exists to perhaps a lesser degree in that historical archive, although it certainly exists.
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A
I wanted to clarify a component of your theoretical reinterpretation. What is your conception of changing ownership in southern Andean photography, specifically in the context of consumption, acts of interpretation across historical moments? How did La Paz photographer Julio Cordero, who I believe was Aimaran, reify ethnic and racial hierarchies? And why did his studio portraiture change around 1930?
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C
Right. I think one way of understanding changing, changing ownership, right, has to do with. Well, I mean, has to do with literally like who. Who owns the photograph, right? And what it means for. For those photographs to be. To be owned. This has to do and gets into a little bit the idea of what's happened to many of these photographs after. After a given amount of time. But in the. The first instance, you know, ownership is. Is a truly significant notion or feature because it has to do with the ways in which the subject portrayed in the images owned not only the images themselves, but also sort of manage the process of having these images done. So in a sense, one thing that's truly important there is the idea that that ownership right gave authority to what we can think of as subaltern subjects to manage their own self image and how that would be transmitted. If we think about ownership in other contexts, in other contexts, what we've seen is that the ownership of the images once photographers pass away, or families themselves no longer have a use for the images. Once, once the, let's say, primary owner or owners of the images pass on, those images enter into a sort of market which there exists in the entire world, not only in Latin America or the Andes, for these sorts of older photographs. And then the images obviously have a very different function. Right. I would say that they be much more sort of objects of exchange and objects for collectors who oftentimes have very little to do with the original kind of historical context. Right. And this is just, I think, a basic fact about how these markets for these images work. You asked me about Julio Cordero and about his, his relationship to ethnic and racial hierarchies. Cordero is interesting because he, in a first moment, he's really a photographer for the elites, right? He has very little interest, as, as Bolivian scholars of photography have pointed out, in photographing, you know, anybody other than elites, you know, like some other photographers, he came himself from an indigenous background, but in his, in his personal history, and this I know from, from interviews with family members, he was not interested in, in continuing his, his connection to indigenous cultures, as far as I've been able to see. So, for example, he banned the speaking by his family of Aymara in his home. Right. So there's a way in which, up until about 1930, and that's, that's a rough estimate on the, on the date, Cordero kind of insistently refuses to photograph, right. Any sort of people outside the elite. Economic pressures mean that after 1930s, he has to start. Start taking pictures of people who have a broader, you know, at least class background. And you can see, see this from the sorts of dress that people often wear in a studio and also from the economic record where you can see that their photographs of the 1930 are much cheaper. He's selling them just for a lot less. So there he, because he's being all the pressures, has to broaden the base of his images. Of course, there's another aspect to Cordero which is his photographs for the police, right, in which these are not, these are not what I understand as portraits because the people portrayed them and were not. They're not managing their own self images. It's the state and in particular the police who are. And in these images, you know, you often get very masculinist and racialist by understandings of indigeneity and of women. There are often photos of prostitutes, right, and there's often images of indigenous peoples, right, which we can glean from the names that are assigned to them. Often names from Aymara as well as the phenotypic record, right, that we see. So, yeah, Correro is a very interesting case in his archivish.
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A
I have one final question. What do you mean by horizontal when you characterize a relationship and transactions between photographers, subjects and the broader community and what are the dependent limits and interdependent contours of the archive for Southern Andean photography in the early 20th century.
- [37:06]
C
So by horizontal, I'm trying to get at an important aspect in, in the book, but also generally in terms of how we approach photographic portraiture in the Andes and elsewhere. I think one way in which we might approach the question of the relationship and transactions between photographers and subjects is by thinking of the photographer as a sort of author of the image who then dictates, right, what the structure of the image is and that the subjects simply insert themselves in. Into this. Undoubtedly, photographers had a great deal of influence because of their experience, right, with, with the technology on what. On what the. What the images, right, look like and how they should be organized. But from interviews and from other research, my understanding is that it was actually much more of a collaborative effort between subjects and photographers. So that in some sense, and because of the ways in which subjects were paying for the image, there was a sort of attempt to work shoulder to shoulder on creating images for individuals, right? So that way of understanding agency and consumption in photographic portraiture means that.
- [38:54]
A
Subjects.
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C
Aren'T merely objects to photographers, rather their clients, right, who have a great deal of sway in how their self. Images are presented in the visual record. In terms of your questions about Arxiv, that's an interesting one. And towards the end of the book, in fact, in the last chapter, I've meditated a little bit on that. What's been most of interest to me has been, you know, one communicating and I hope I have in. In Portraits in the Andes. The enormity of this archive, it's. It's huge. There's, you know, examples, I think, in. In every corner of the Andes and in every small town, right? In, in. In the early 20th century, right, you would have either a photographer or an itinerant photographer who would, you know, go through the town and create images for people. And these images have, have persisted, right? In that sense, this archive, as I've said previously, it allows access to an enormous kind of historical social richness that perhaps we don't have access to in other ways. That same archive, I think, is perhaps troublingly right, also being removed from those same spaces so that it, for very good reasons, is preserved within centers where the images then become part of a broader history of perhaps a national history or an urban history, or in any case, one that has less to do with. With the families, you know, themselves. And one of the, one of the interesting things about that and, and I want to stress that I agree that these images must be preserved, right? But One of the interesting contradictions right in that movement is it puts images into a trajectory, a historical continuum that has less to do with the places within which they originated and has more to do with the sort of histories we create from scholarship of, you know, visual culture, especially, you know, art histories. Right. But really any sort of history of visual culture. So I think there's a, there's a really interesting tension there. And I also think that there's, there's ways of addressing. Right. What might be viewed as a, as an issue or a problem in the ways in which we manage archives. I think there's wonderful ways, especially with current technologies, of addressing those sorts of issues with archives. So I hope that gets to your question.
- [41:56]
A
Much appreciated. Professor, I have one extra question. Can you disclose anything about your next project or future plans?
- [42:05]
C
Yes, Ryan, thanks for that question as well. I'm actually working on a couple of projects. One is a sort of, a sort of cultural, cultural biography of a concept. You know, Luandino or the Andean is a term that has allowed us to conceptualize the region over its, over its modern history. So from, you know, the early 20th, sorry, the early 19th century, the independence period until very recently. And I've been very interested to trace out how that idea originates in archaeology, in my view, and then moves through literature and literary practices in the early 20th century into the mid, and then jumps into what I would say is the area of cultural consumption. So one example of that is, for example, Neo Peruvian cooking. Right. There's a really persistent and powerful idea of the Andean right which animates the consumption of this usually high end food production. I'm talking about the many kinds of restaurants that we see not only within Peru, but outside of Peru, especially in Europe and in North America. So I'm really interested in thinking about how that notion has developed and has moved through these very different sorts of spheres to end up as a sort of strategy for managing a global market of cultural consumption. So that's one project I'm working on, another project which is more in the beginning stages of the relationships between intellectuals and indigenous peoples and perhaps more broadly written in Latin America, simply subaltern subjects and the ways in which literacy is transmitted from quite often from intellectuals to subaltern subjects, and the ways in which these subaltern subjects then utilize literacy in peculiar ways. Right. Right now the scope of that project is based in, in the Andes, which is what I'm most conversant in. But I would really like to work more on a continental scale, even though that might take many, many more years to complete as a project, but I'm looking forward to it. Thanks a lot again for that question.
- [44:51]
A
Well, we're looking forward to that. So this is Ryan Tripp on behalf of Professor Coronado for the need of a Mary and Studies channel, the New Books Network.
- [45:25]
C
SA.