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Jorge Marco and Gutmaro Gomez Bravo, "The Fabric of Fear: Building Franco's New Society in Spain, 1936-1950" (Liverpool UP, 2023)
01:11:42
An interview with Jorge Marco
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- [00:03]
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- [01:37]
Ethan Besser Frederick
Hello everybody and welcome back to New Books and Latin American Studies, a podcast channel on the New Books Network. I'm Ethan Besser Frederick, the host of the channel and today we'll be talking to Jorge Marco about their and Gutmaro Gomez Bravo's new book, the Fabric of Fear Building Franco's News society in Spain, 1936-1950. Hello and welcome to the show Jorge Marco.
- [01:57]
Jorge Marco
Hello. Thank you very much for the invitation.
- [01:59]
Ethan Besser Frederick
Before we get into the book in detail, could you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself and how you and Gutmaro came to write the book?
- [02:06]
Jorge Marco
Well, we started the book. This book was published first in Spanish 11 years ago. So this is an updated version in English right now. And we ended up working on this topic and in this book, because he basically was working on the role of the Catholic Church in the prison Francois system, and I was working more in the army trial system under the Franco detective. We were colleagues in the same department. So we decided that we had several discussions about the important, the key role of the army and the Catholic Church in the repressive system under the Franco dictatorship. And we ended up thinking that actually it would be very good to merge both approaches. And that was the way we started to think about this book.
- [03:10]
Ethan Besser Frederick
Well, I think the institutional histories and also the personal histories in this book, I think are definitely one of its strong suits for anyone listening who's interested in military, state, prison, church history and in Spain. The book is divided into three parts, the introduction, which sets out some of the analytical and intellectual stakes of it, and we're going to start there. In your introduction, you situate your work as belonging to a trend that quote, relates the dynamics of violence in both their horizontal and vertical forms and thereby expanding universe of violence from its state structures to its more everyday practices, incorporating as well as broad spaces of social consensus. And it's really this connection between institutions and everyday practices that is one of the great strengths of the book and one of the very interesting connections that's shown here. So could you tell us a little bit more about what kind of interventions you were hoping to make with the book and how it relates to the state of war that Spain endured at this time?
- [04:08]
Jorge Marco
Yeah, well, basically we have noticed that when not only the case of Spain, but also in other countries, when we studied violence and repression, sometimes it's focused on institutions only in institutions. And. And in the last decades there have been a huge wave of studies who focus on everyday resistance, but also repression. So we thought that we needed to make, to dialogue these both approaches, because with this interconnection between institutions and society. So in some way it was like trying to bring this idea of history from below together with institutions. And yeah, I think if you focus only one of these sides, you are missing one of the main aspects of the repression under the Franco dictatorship, but also in another kind of authoritarian or totalitarian dictatorships. So, and actually, I think the most interesting is to look at this interaction because everyday repression have impact in institutions, and also institutions have a huge impact in everyday repression. So basically we were looking at this interaction between these both two sides and also how change through the time, because it was not a static process, but patent contrary change through the time from, you know, the beginning of the Spanish Civil War to the end of the 1950s, 50s.
- [06:02]
Ethan Besser Frederick
So that's a very good lead into how the rest of the book is separated into part one and part two, with part one looking at the battlefield war. So from 1936-39 until the end of the war. And then the second part of the book, from 39 to 50, as you examine what the Franco estate certainly still considered a state of war, but maybe historians or popular listeners may not usually associate with the Civil War itself. So let's look into this first part and your first chapter. In this part, Military Trials argues that the emergency summary trial became a very core site for state building for Franco and his forces between 1936 and 39. And I found this to be very interesting. Could you tell us a little bit more about this procedure? And you point out at the very beginning of this chapter that this procedure of an emergency summary trial was often conducted by men without any sort of legal training, and that this is the core foundation for parts of the Franco estate.
- [07:00]
Jorge Marco
Yep. Well, at the beginning of the war, in this chapter, we wanted to address several things. First. First, for example, the beginning of the war, basically in the Francois side, in the Francois zone, there were more extrajudicial murders, judicial murders during this, the first, I would say, six months of the war. But although that is true, they started to build a new judicial army system during this period. And we wanted to look at this point because it was quite interesting how at the beginning, basically, they didn't have a clear idea about the procedures they. We need to follow in this, because this institution was increasing their importance in the role they were playing in the repression. Thousands of new members were integrated in this institution and they didn't know the procedures how to follow. So basically in this chapter, we were looking at how the high command managed to organize the judicial Francois system during the first months. And from the beginning they had a clear idea about what they want to achieve. Basically a hard, hard repression against the. The enemy, the internal enemy, how they, they call it socialists, communists, liberals, republicans, anarchists, feminists, the anti Spain, as they call it so, nationalists from Catalonia, from the Basque country, in Andalusia, in Galicia, et cetera. So they had a clear idea that they had to basically broke the liberal system of justice and built a totalitarian judicial system where people who were on trial, they didn't have any rights at all. And also to speed the procedure, they needed a very speedy justice because they need to, as they call it, clean political cleaning of. Of the society in Spain. So we look basically at this, at this first stage of the, of the judicial system, the military judicial system that was very important because we wanted to look, because the Francois military system, judicial system was one of the main foundations of the repressive system established by the dictatorship from the beginning in 1936 until the end in 1977.
- [10:12]
Ethan Besser Frederick
I found these questions of popular participation and state building to be very interesting topics, especially coming at it from somebody who often is looking at Latin America and Mexico in this time. And I think for anybody interested in thinking about the relationship between top down hierarchical control of violence and improvisation, because both work in this chapter and both work well together, they're not in conflict. Which I, I think is a very important contribution that this book makes.
- [10:44]
Jorge Marco
Yeah, I, I agree that was one of the things because sometimes as a historian we look for processes or institutions and we, we tended to think that, you know, is something established that happened from the beginning. And actually actors have not only their agency, they, they, they are trying to achieve some things and sometimes they need to change you. So it's a trial all the time, is a kind of trial. And so we look at this aspect, how they need it all the time to change their policies, trying to, to improve the, the system and the goals they wanted to meet.
- [11:28]
Ethan Besser Frederick
Taking a look at your next chapter, the second chapter is titled Rituals of Blood and Sacrifice. And this chapter analyzes the community of death, as you call it, which I think is a very interesting analytic that was created through the mourning, blood and sacrifice of this period in, in Spanish history, in the Franco repression. So could you tell us what you mean by community of death and how it was made in this time period?
- [11:54]
Jorge Marco
Well, in this case we use more like an anthropological approach. We wanted to look at one of these bottom up dynamics and the interaction between civil society and institutions. So basically we had a clear idea in the case of the Francois violence that the high command always had the idea that they need to, they have clear targets, they need to clean the internal enemies and they provide these ideas to the population. But also we need to look at different levels and institutions. It's not the same. The high in command, the high command that, you know, the regional states, the local authorities, etc. But also the perpetrators, who is the people who finally committed the martyrs and what are the dynamics among them. So, and at the same time, when we were looking at this, it's quite interesting because in some way the Franco army was trying and authorities were promoting violence against the internal enemy. But what we call internal enemy sounds quite, how we say sounds like pretty vague probably because we are talking about local communities. Sometimes perpetuals were members of the same community of the victims. Which is quite a difficult situation because actually for decades after these events, families, relatives were still living altogether mixed victims and perpetrators, which probably is one of the main legacies of the Franco dictatorship still today, but in some way perpetrators, because they were, when you live in a community, and especially in local communities, and we need to keep in mind basically Spain by this time was a rural country. It wasn't the case like the US, the UK or even France. In Spain, more than 50% of the population still were living in. In villages or towns, not in big cities. And the vast majority of this violence happened in these rural communities. So when they committed these murders, murders, rapes, etc. Any kind of crime, they were broken the. The main elements of a community. Because although in any single community there are conflicts, of course there are conflicts in any single community. But normally the communities have ways to manage this all togetherness. But the Francois violence broke these links, the bones of this community because they in one way or another, killing, raping, etc. They broke the. The more basic elements of how a community live. In this contest there was a bond among the perpetrators because at the beginning, became a perpetrator, could allow you to belong to a new national community. But this is for the first time, once you have done your job, even people who were supporting the Franco dictatorship could point to you because you finally and the app. Murdering, killing, raping, etc. Etc. So it's interesting to see how at the beginning, for these members, this could be a moment of when they started to create a new community. This community of death, which was very visible at the beginning, but ended up being very invisible, very invisible because people don't like to remember people who were killing. Actually the communities normally are building up on the idea of victims. And this is what the Franco leadership did afterwards. Basically they did a vindication of their own victims, the people who were killing the republican side. But they didn't provide like a proper memory for those who killed in their site. So. But, and also when you cross this line, that's something. And actually when we were working on this topic, we were looking to another like particular cruelty events in history, for example, the French Revolution, the Russian Revolution. There are moments where blood is just across the streets and there is a moment when this blood could make a strong bond among the members who belong to these paramilitary groups. Normally, and in the case of the Franco Di du Chevre, that is the case. But also how these people at the end can end up being very visible because they cross a line that normally societies in the context of no war doesn't like it. I don't know if I explained very well this part.
- [18:28]
Ethan Besser Frederick
No, I think so. I think that that combination of identifying yourself as a victim, but in practice having built identities and relationships through collaborate learn collaborations, maybe not even the right word, but. But through participating in these together, I think that's such an interesting combination and I can't think of a better phrase for it than community of death. So it's a very helpful analytic.
- [18:51]
Jorge Marco
Thank you.
- [18:53]
Ethan Besser Frederick
The third chapter of the book takes us to the Catholic Church then. It's called the Catholic Church Punishment and Pardon. And it argues that during this hot period of the war 36 to 39, the church adopted a position of distinguishing between the criminals and the ignorant. And I think for people who work much with church history, these sorts of distinctions will be familiar. And they brought this even when it came to post combat trials. So can you tell us a little bit about these categories and how they worked in this time period?
- [19:22]
Jorge Marco
Well, basically the Catholic Church broads. All the philosophical categories who were made by Catholics, Spanish Catholics thinkers during the 16th century, 17th century, 18th century. They tried to apply to this conflict to the Spanish Civil War. And they divided the wall in very two different categories. And one of them was the people who were supporting Franco, of course and the other one, the anti Spain were those who were defending a more democratic and like country. So basically in with they use this categories to create not only a narrative of the war, for example, they. They consider the Spanish Civil War not like a Spanish a civil war, but instead as a crusade against the Reds, against the enemies of God. Today we. We can found probably so many similarities with another kind of wars that we can see in the Middle east today in the sense of a very fanatical point of view of Catholicism. Because we need to remember that in the Republican side they were Catholics as well, but they had a different approach for Catholicism. So basically in this case institution, the vast majority of this institution, because there were few Arthur Bibbs bishops that were against these ideas in the case of the vast country or even in Catalonia. But the vast majority of the Catholic Church in Spain supported Franco from the beginning. And they basically created a narrative that it was a kind of blue. A glue. Sorry, an glue. Because we need to remember that the Franco ship Frank Coon it wasn't an ideology before the Spanish Civil War. Francois is an ideology that is created during the Spanish Civil War with People from different, with different backgrounds, all of them from right wing perspective. But there were no. All the same. There were fascists, there were traditionalists. Like by traditionaliste we normally call people with a very strong right, far right wing perspective, but with a very Catholic weight in their, in their thinking. There were members of Cedar, so different families that were different families and the Catholic Church basically was able to glue all these families to create something new which was the, this ideology. So basically they provide this idea dividing the wall in, in black and white. And, and that was a very powerful narrative in order to target the. The enemies of God.
- [23:05]
Ethan Besser Frederick
It is interesting to think of the, the new and the old mixing together here because you, you bring up several times in the book the important role of these colonial contexts and colonial experiences. But then it's also clearly transformed and reimagined of what that looks like in the national context or metropolitan complex. Maybe I should say.
- [23:26]
Jorge Marco
Well, yeah, actually we need to think when, when we normally think about violence in the context of war. Basically there was a colonial violence.
- [23:42]
Marshall Poe
Where.
- [23:42]
Jorge Marco
The enemies didn't have any. They were portrayed as no humans. So they. You can do any kind of atrocity against them because they are not humans. But this kind of violence never was used in the continent. In Europe, even in the First World War, there were very few massacres. So the case of the Spanish Civil War, as later happened in the Second World War is one of these cases when we can call it like a kind of boomerang. So all the practices, all these atrocities perpetrated by the colonial armies in colonial territories in Africa, in Latin America, etc. Came back to Europe. In the case of Spain, basically the enemies, the reds, socialists, anarchists, etc. They were portrayed as no humans, no God people. So there was a kind of legitimation, legitimization that you can commit any kind of atrocity, a massacre against them. And that is something that also happened in, in the Second World War and following on. So basically, yeah, there is a moment in history and I think Spanish Civil War was a key moment where civilian population became for the first time in clear targets of their armies. And the Spanish Civil War is one of those, I mean similar population in the metropolitan areas. Because before civil population was a target for colonial armies. But in the context of the metropolis, the Spanish Civil War is one of the, the first ones when this happened, when all this violence came back.
- [25:43]
Ethan Besser Frederick
The fourth chapter gets a bit more into the nuts and bolts of how this is brought back. The fourth chapter, titled Police Investigations and Military Intelligence, examines the Document Recovery Service. So I can't think of a better topic for a historian to want to learn more about or to write about than the Document Recovery Service. And it's run by a Carlist, Marcelino de Ulibari. And you conclude that the close cooperation between the Document Recovery Service, the police and military law demonstrates a level of planning Francoist repression. So could you tell us a little bit about what you mean about this planning from the very beginning of the Civil War and the role that Document Recovery and this sort of creating of a legal archive. What. What role did those play in that planning?
- [26:30]
Jorge Marco
Okay. I think in this, in this sector we try to address, for example, one of the main debates that there were before in the histography of the Franco regime. Basically there were some tendencies that they were saying that the Spanish Civil War and the violence committed during the Spanish Civil War afterwards was a kind of irrational and not planning violence. So everything constituted in the moment. But when we were working on the archives, we noticed that actually there was very well planned. Of course, there were changes all the time, but there are changes because they are planning from the beginning. So we wanted to. To, because sometimes in the case of the. The Franco regime, you know, in contrast with the. The Nazi Germany or the Stalinist Soviet Union has been portrayed like a kind of more soft dictatorship. And actually it wasn't like that. And we noticed in the archives that actually there were quite a clear planning. And also we wanted to introduce another element because the main two pillars, the main two foundations of the Franco regime was the prison system and military jurisdiction. But we noticed that between both of them, the role of the police, in terms of institutions, the role of police work was key. And we noticed that they also started to work from the beginning. So basically we were working with this new institution, Recuperacion de Documentos, which was an institution who changed through the time, also even their name change. But basically they were trying to. Once any city has been occupied, they need to go to the main places, for example, working class organizations, institutional buildings, etc. Etc. To collect all the data as soon as possible in order to use this data for repressing the enemies. But they also notice that they have having problems because, you know, the first occupation, the first stages of occupations, city occupations were. Was quite messy. So they try to organize better groups, have a better idea. So they ended up planning because for them the main issue was the big cities. Madrid, Barcelona and Valencia, the three main republican cities. The three of them classic, they were like were the main republican ideas have in Spain. So they were symbols of, you know, free thinking, but they were also massive in terms of population. So it was not the same to occupy a city as, you know, a city with 100,000 population, a city like Madrid with more than 1 million of people. So in order to made this occupation effective and to collect all the data possible, they plan how to occupy. So they work together police and a kind of intelligence. Police and the army work together. So along with the army, when they were entering in cities, these groups, these police groups were going to the main buildings, they have information where they're the main buildings they wanted to occupy, etc. And being able to get all the documentation as possible. So yeah, that was. For example, right now you can go to the Archibo de Salamanca, which is one of the main archibos of repression in Spain, and they have more than 1 million cards with information about people, all of these collected by this, by this institution, by this police institution.
- [31:27]
Ethan Besser Frederick
It's really an incredible process described in this chapter. And I feel like even no matter how much I read about Francoism, it's still surprising every time to see just how planned out so much of the repression was from the very beginning, what it was always going to be about.
- [31:45]
Jorge Marco
Yeah, and I think in this case we try to fight against the stereotypes because normally when people is thinking, for example, about the Nazi regime, there are stereotypes about, you know, in general, people can think, you know, German, the German culture is very organized, so they know how to organize everything. And even in the repression, they are very practical and organized. But, you know, Spanish, Spain people, Spanish people, you know, is, you know, it's from the South, Latin, and they don't know how to organize and everything is for tomorrow, etc. Etc. And, but that these are, these are stereotypes and doesn't have anything to do with reality. When you look at the documentation, you actually can see how they plan from the beginning, different kind, because it was like a kind of web of procedures to catch any enemy in one way or another, and some of them in different webs. So no, no, it's clearly clear that the Franco leadership have a clear organization of their oppression. Of course there were problems in the context of war. Of course it wasn't effective at all. There were several problems, but they had a clear idea and they implemented different policies to have a comprehensive system of violence and repression in Spain.
- [33:28]
Ethan Besser Frederick
Let's move on to one of these webs that you just alluded to in the final chapter of this part one, Living with the Enemy. You examine the denunciations and the role of rumor. So could you tell us about public rumor, a term that. That's very important in this chapter, and the role that rumor and honor play in this period in these denunciations?
- [33:49]
Jorge Marco
Well, again, as you can see, we were going from top down to bottom up approaches. So once we have look, you know, at the. The military, judicial system, the police system, the army, etc. We wanted to look at this aspect that has been studied in different case studies, for example, in the Soviet Union, in Germany, in Italy, and has been studied also in Spain. So we wanted to go deep in the role of civil population and how ordinary people, even sometimes your relatives, can produce a denounce against you and how the main effect of this. System is how the fear is spread across society because you have, of course, new institutions who are trying to repress you in one way or another. But you can see the institutions more clearly. You know, you can see a police, you can see a judge, you can see. But when, when, when any single person, your neighbor, your brother, anyone can be the person pointing out at you saying that you committed that crime or that you were republican. And that is terrible. That is terrific. I mean, it's just a moment when you feel completely trapped. And this collaboration, as I said, and I think that is one of the main issues when you. One of the main difficulties to talk about the past, for example, in Spain and in other countries who have been living under a dictatorship, is that because you can address easily the role of institutions and you can say these institutions were broken on the rights. But it's more complex when huge sections of society have been collaborating because can be your grandfather, could be your father, could be anyone. And that is, I think so for us that was very important. First to see how fear operates in society and was spread across the country. And also because I think we thought it was very relevant for the current debates, because it's very difficult to address, as I said before, and you can blame easily the institutions, but when the responsibility, or part of this responsibility is also land in people, ordinary people, that is more complex to address for a society. We thought.
- [37:15]
Ethan Besser Frederick
Every chapter is filled with a number of great examples and case studies, but I think this one in particular I would really encourage to readers this. This chapter has just a number of very interesting examples, including the very first one in which a. A supporter of Franco somehow is still arrested by the Francois system for not being sufficiently honorable.
- [37:34]
Jorge Marco
Pole.
- [37:36]
Ethan Besser Frederick
Let's move on to part two of the book in which we examine the the not hot war from 39 to 50. The first chapter here, the sixth chapter of the book overall, Savage Spain begins with a very compelling contrast of the victory parades for Franco soldiers around Europe after the war, alongside the brutal punishment for any soldiers who had in some way or another broken military code. And you use these examples to explore the clear relationship of subordination when there was also paternalistic between individuals and the state. So could you tell us a little bit more about Savage Spain?
- [38:16]
Jorge Marco
Well, in this case, I think we wanted to enter a new debate. Sometimes we talk about violence. We as scholars and society, newspapers, etc. We make too clear distinction between victims and perpetrators in terms of violence. Actually, sometimes everything is quite messy and it's more complicated than that. So for example, in this case we wanted to address how even if you were a supporter of Franco, even if you have been one of the, you know, the vanguard of, of the army against the internal enemy, you can end up being beaten or killed by members of the dictatorship. Because I think the main issue in this contest was the Franco dictatorship open a door, opened the gate of violence. And when you open that gate in that way and you are promoting violence in this way, it's very difficult to close it. And that will happened. So violence spread across the society, not only against the people that they call the internal enemies, but also against people at the beginning they were clear supporters of Franco. So that was one of the main. And it was quite irregular, it was quite difficult to know. You cannot know when you have done bad step and you can end the app in a bad way. That is one of more awful situations because there's no clear boundaries what you can do and what cannot do. So that is the most, I will say, one of the most difficult situations. And why violence spread across society, first against internal enemy, also later against those, you know, maybe can have doubts or maybe don't keep in line or they end up in a bad moment in a. In a. In a bad place. And actually all this violence. And maybe we can talk later, because that is one of the lines of my inquiries right now is about how all this violence was internalized in the families. Because right now it's in the public space. But I would say after the battlefield war, it was also internalized inside the families, inside the individuals, and it was spread in different ways. But yeah, basically in this chapter we wanted to make clear how the boundaries of violence were not clear at all. There were no limits and even people who were Francois who ended up in a bad place.
- [42:02]
Ethan Besser Frederick
I. I definitely do want to follow up with your inquiries into violence. At the end here we'll. We'll get a chance to talk about the work that you've been doing now since this book. But let's take a look at the way that that violence was channeled in certain ways in the seventh chapter, which has a very, very interesting title of Franco's Prison Ship. And this chapter examines the creative ways that the state managed the enormous prison population. Population, so a sort of channeled and organization of that, of that oppression and after 39 and including executions and leasing out prisoners as workers, with the intentional goal of isolating, punishing and converting people. So can you tell us a little bit about how the Franco estate managed this new prisoner population once the. The war formally ended? But obviously the state of war is ongoing.
- [42:52]
Jorge Marco
Well, didn't manage very well, actually, but I will say that they didn't care very much about that. So basically there was a huge number of people. We need to think that basically at the end of 1939, at least half million of people were in some kind of prisons, concentration camps, etc. And in this period of transition, maybe 1 million people were moving from one to another. So it was a huge number. The main effect was in a very difficult material situations, in a context of violence, in a context of no logistics at all. So basically we don't know the numbers, but it's being calculated that maybe 200,000 people could die. We are not sure about that because we don't have the documents. But in terms of hunger, disease, ill treatment, etc. There were huge numbers of prisoners who were dead or killed in one way or another. And also it was an increase of suicides. So that was the first one. Second, they tried to. Well, at the beginning, every single building building up, being a prison. But after the battlefield war, basically they try to organize better the prisoners. So there was a period of reduction of the numbers of prisoners, especially from 1941. So they were able to put them in, not provisional prisons, but in proper jails, but still were totally crowded, totally crowded and health conditions were awful. And actually the worst thing that a prisoner could have happened was if you were a prison in. And we need to think about the socialist structure of Spain by this time. It was a socialist structure where family was fundamental. So basically, if you, for example, were a prisoner from Galicia and you were in a Galician prison, you probably will be able to survive what was able to survive because your family was providing you food, was providing you clothes, etc. But if you have been transferred from Galicia to another region in Spain, well, that probably can be your death sentence because you don't have the support of your family and the prison is not giving you food, enough clothes enough to survive. So for example, that is one of the most awful situations that suffer prisoners during, during this period. I don't know if I answered the question.
- [46:28]
Ethan Besser Frederick
I think you did and I think you, I think the, the, your, your initial answer to my question, that the state did not manage it well, I think is very apt as you get into the overcrowding and the lack of resources. And you make it clear that the state also knows this, that they use moving people as punishment, that they're aware that the prisons are, are in horrific condition.
- [46:51]
Jorge Marco
Well, yeah, and that's. For example, there were cases, not only that, there were cases of corruption, there were cases of, we can call it kleptocracy from members, director of the prisons, etc. And this is. And the institutions, the state know about these cases. We have been able to demonstrate these cases because they have the reports they wrote on black and white reports saying there were people in these institutions, in prisons who were using the food for prisoners to make money, who were using the different resources from these prisons to get rich. And they didn't do anything at all. They didn't do anything at all. Or for example, how they use. I don't know if it's in this chat or another one. One of the more awful situations is they, the state put as guards in prisons relatives of people who have been suffered violence in the Republican side. Imagine if you, this is a very conscious decision. If you, you know, if you, for example, are a person in Granada and your father has been killed by the Republicans, you have a legitimate hate against those who have killed your father. And now you are put as a guard in a prison. Well, the number of violence, incidents committed by guards against prisoners is huge, was huge. And one of the main reasons for that to happen was that they were using this hatred, personal hatred. They channel this personal hatred against the Republican prisoners. I don't know if, if we talk about, in this chat about this or it's another one, but that, that, that was one that. When we notice, we were shocked.
- [49:30]
Ethan Besser Frederick
Continuing on this topic of prisons, the next chapter in the book actually looks at how prisons were reimagined at a certain point, or at least rebranded, if not entirely changed in substance. The eighth chapter, Enemies of Peace and Public Order, follows the evolution of the Francois prison system in the 1940s, especially after D Day in 1944. As there start to be, as they start to change under Catholic leadership. So for example, leaders of the prison system began to emphasize a system of humanitarian authoritarianism, which is just an incredibly interesting phrase. And one of the examples of this included replacing beatings, or at least supposed to substitute beatings with forcing prisoners to listen to gunfire as the guards practice target practice. So could you tell us a little bit more about these changes that are happening in the prison system, why they're changing and what are the changes going on?
- [50:24]
Jorge Marco
Well, in this case we wanted to address, as I said before, we wanted to show that the Franco D.C. it wasn't monolithic. Actually there were conflicts within the families who were supporting the Franco dictatorship. We used to call it a coalition of violence. So different political families all came together and built this Francoism, but still there were these different families that they have different approaches about how their oppression should be conducted. And that was one of the main cases in the 19, I would say in the last part of the Second World War. And this context of the Second World War is also important because from 1943 it was pretty clear that the Allies they were taking advantage and probably Hitler wasn't going to win the war. So the Franco dictatorship one way tried to decline some of the fascist traps and ideas, at least in the, you know, for the international popular opinion. But also in this contest there were members of the supporters of Franco, especially those more linked to the Catholic traditional Catholic Church. Some sectors of the supporters of Franco, especially those more linked to the traditional Catholic Church, but more moderated ones, or we can say the more liberals in, in this right wing wall, they were trying to implement a new policy in the context of the prison system. Because something that we wanted to address was because there is a huge debate, for example, about, you know, if Spain was a case of genocide or if it was a. Etc. And there is a debate in Spain and outside. And we wanted to address this basically because one of the main peculiarities of the Franco dictatorship was that they classify individuals and they had a clear idea that some of them were not able to change at all so that people could be target to be murdered or being in prison for a long time. But in their minds they thought that the vast majority of Republicans, these internal enemies, they can change because they had this Catholic idea of redemption. So that is one way how they use these Catholic philosophical ideas to create these new prison system. So they wanted to redeem them and they planify a whole prison system to. To change the mind of. To redempt these people who can be recovered well. And there was a dispute among the institution, because you have this sector of the Franco supporters, but you have also a hard line sectors who were saying, no, no, we need to apply a very drastic policies against the enemies. And it was a huge dispute. And this involved even the Ministry, the Ministry of Interior and the head of the prison system in Spain. And they were spy by the Francois police. And in a kind of, I will say very similar, you know, these purges in the Stalinist Soviet Union, there was a purge in the, in the Francois system. The only difference is they, they. These people didn't end up in prison or Marda, but. And they were displaced and their policies were put in this grief. And finally the hard line finally ended up winning this battle. But it was an intense battle, especially during two, three years within the Francois institutions about how should be the role of the prison system, how they should treat the. The prisoners.
- [55:27]
Ethan Besser Frederick
This chapter, I think very much connects to the subsequent chapter which is called the Conversion of those in Error. And so it looks at one segment of this debate and you studied the confessions and repentances of Republicans and you've posted many of them in this chapter, which makes it reading just on its own terms. And so you argue that these narratives followed a process set by the regime, that the Francoist regime had a very set process of what conversion and salvation would look like for prisoners, following a process of repent, obey, collaborate and convert. So can you tell us a little bit about these confessions and this process?
- [56:07]
Jorge Marco
Well, that is very interesting because they were using procedures from the Catholic Church and rituals, turning up into a very clear repressive tool against internal enemies. And that was a tool to redeem these people who were the internal enemies. But they thought that they could become a good Spaniard. And basically they had two ideas. First, because there is like a collective conversion, but also the individual conversion, because the main goal was the collective conversion. So they had the idea that many sections of the Spanish population has been perverted by foreign ideologies, socialism, anarchism, communism, republicanism, liberalism, etc. Etc. So they need to convert, redeem these people and they will be able to see light and became a good Spaniard. And being a good Spaniard, meaning being Catholic and following the traditional ideas of a right wing ideology, but basically to achieve that goal, they use individual conversion because they were, okay, there's one way to try to redeem the collective is through propaganda, through repression, etc. But they thought that that was not very effective or could be effective. But the most effective way was through individual conversion. And they use different Tools, for example, well, they use the strategy of the carrot and the stick. If you were able to imprison to demonstrate that you are. Living behind your ideas and you are embracing the new Catholic creed, then you will be able to get some privileges. Also they use for example families. If so, depending on how you behave in prison and how to behave is not only you know if you are a good person or not, is if you go to the mass, if you participate in the mass, if you go to different activities that they are implemented to try to convert you. If you have this good behavior, then your family could be. Could obtain some. Not privileges, but could obtain some food, go obtain a job, etc. Etc. But in contrast, if you don't follow these ideas, then your family is gonna. Gonna have a very hard time. And that was very complicated because the vast majority of the prison population in this time was male. And some of them, they were the. The head of the family. So without their support, without their labor support, the family struggle a lot to survive in the context of a post war imagine. And also once for example you go out from prison, then you have a whole system. I don't know if we talk about this in this chapter or in the next one, but there is a whole system of local authorities who we will be looking at your behavior, looking at what are you doing. And that was the way. And one of the main issues, for example, if you have been in prison or you have been Republican, you have a difficult. It's very difficult to. It was very difficult to get a job, especially in your local community. So sometimes people need to migrate to another different cities, looking for the anonymity to create a new life because local communities could be a prison as well.
- [61:04]
Ethan Besser Frederick
Yeah, you definitely developed this in both this ninth chapter on the conversion and in the tenth chapter. As you just said, the tenth chapter is the final chapter in this part two, the world of repression inside local communities. And I was surprised to this a little bit. I mean in the one hand, not it's clearly an authoritarian oppressive system, but even people who had converted, who had sort of done everything they were supposed to imprison, who and their imprisoners believe in their conversion. Even then there continues to be an isolation, surveillance and distrust after, after the release. So could you tell us a little bit why that is? Why why are the, why is this prisoner status so different, difficult to shake off?
- [61:44]
Jorge Marco
Well, yeah, basically they didn't trust even those that really, really convert because there were people, of course there were people that were playing the game and they were trying to survive and there was everyday resistance in the same. In the sense of Jamie Scott. So they were just saying what they were expected to say, just to survive. But there were people that actually changed their minds and they left all their political ideas and became Catholics, etc. But even those had the problem that actually the authorities didn't trust them. And the interesting thing in this case is from the national system, prison system, when they were released, finally they ended up under the web of the local authorities. Because the Franco Institute shaped gave a huge amount of powers to local authorities for survival and to keep on track not only the people who were released from prison, but also their families. And that was necessary for almost everything, everything you need in your ordinary life. Getting a job, get coupons for food, even for your if you want to drive. We found for example, many complaints of former prisoners who were asking for. For just a drive license. But the local authorities didn't get them because they were ex Republicans, former Republicans, and they didn't trust them. So they. They had in this, as I said before, in the. In the local communities surviving, even though you have change and you have done all that authorities and the state has asked you to do in order to became a good Spaniard, even though there was always a scarf, there was always a blame on you because you have a saddle. You were one of those who put Spain in the hands of the. Of the communists. So we don't trust you. And this shadow was under you the rest of your life. The only way you can survive this, basically, or the people try to survive. This situation was migrating and that happened in the 1950s and the 1960s at the same time that the economic system in Spain changed, there were new policies, it was the first period of industrialization, etc. So these two processes, like a political process and an economic process merge all together. People trying to escape from these claustrophobic local communities, going into anonymous cities and. And also the. The problem of the changes in the economic system. So going to big cities like Madrid, Barcelona, Valencia, Bilbao, Sevilla, etc or going abroad in Europe, in Latin America, in the US etc. Was the way that many people try to survive this claustrophobic situation.
- [65:40]
Ethan Besser Frederick
Your conclusion obviously restates and summarizes a lot of these points, but I think through a very great analysis of fear. And it brings us back to that tension between improvisation and emotion, motion and then also clear central planning. But I'll leave the conclusion to readers. We don't want to give away the whole book, right. So before we go, I'd love to hear from you about what you've been working on since this book and what you're working on now.
- [66:06]
Jorge Marco
Well, I've been working in different topics in the last years. I focus, for example, on drugs and the Spanish Civil War. And I published a book, it was called Paraisos. And the book will be published in English at the end of this year. It will be called paradise in Hell, Alcohol and Drugs in the Spanish Civil War. And in this book I've been trying to address the role of alcohol, tobacco, cocaine, morphine, marijuana and amphetamines in the Spanish Civil War in different ways. Looking at the ordinary experiences of soldiers, how they were used in different political discourse, for example, to target the enemy, but also in terms of masculinities. Well, in different ways. So that has been one of the topics I've been working. Last year I edited a book about subjectivity and historiography related to the Spanish Civil War. So basically I've been working with 20 Spanish historians and I asked them to reflect on the memories that they have about the Spanish Civil War or they have inherited from their families and how this, in one way or another can be affected his way. They are working about the Spanish Civil War and the. The topic they. They choose, their approaches, etc. So that has been published in. In. In Spanish. Maybe it's going to be publishing in French. But still I am discussing this and now I am working. Well, I have different projects. I am working with a cartoonist and probably we will do something about the Spanish Civil War with this cartoonist, but I don't want to talk. We are at the first stage, but I think that could be a very nice book. And also in terms of monography, I am right now working a cultural history of the International Brigades in Spain, because basically the main books has been published on International Brigades are more like with a political approach in terms of ideology, mobilization, etc. But I would like to do something with a cultural approach, thinking about, you know, the shock that is being a foreign soldier fighting in another country where you don't know the language, you don't know the culture, you don't know you actually hate the food, etc. Etc. So I am working on this. I have published a couple of free articles in English about this in terms of, for example, languages, languages, International soldiers in Spain and in the French Resistance. But yeah, my idea is maybe in a couple of years publish a monography on International Brigades.
- [70:02]
Ethan Besser Frederick
I can already think of a few colleagues. I'm going to recommend paradise is in Hell to oh thank you. Well, thank you so much for sharing your great work with us today and your time on the podcast.
- [70:13]
Jorge Marco
Thank you very much for your invitation and has been a pleasure being with you.
- [70:30]
Reggie
Reggie, I just sold my car online. Let's go, Grandpa. Wait, you did?
- [70:34]
Jorge Marco
Yep.
- [70:35]
Reggie
On Carvana. Just put in the license plate, answered a few questions, got an offer in minutes. Easier than setting up that new digital picture frame. You don't say. Yeah, they're even picking it up tomorrow. Talk about fast.
- [70:47]
Jorge Marco
Wow.
- [70:47]
Ethan Besser Frederick
Way to go.
- [70:48]
Reggie
So, about that picture frame. Ah, forget about it. Until Carvana makes one, I'm not interested.
- [70:54]
Jorge Marco
Car selling made easy on Carvana. Pickup fees may apply.