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Joseph P. Viteritti, "Radical Dreamers: Race, Choice, and the Failure of American Education" (Oxford UP, 2025)
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Hello everyone and welcome to the New Book Podcast. I'm Deidra Tyler, host. Today we'll be talking with Joseph P. Vittorioli, author of Radical Race Choice and the Failure of American Education. And please pronounce your name again so I'll make sure it's correct.
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C
Joseph Vitorini.
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A
Thank you. I would like for you to start by telling us a few words about yourself and also how you got started on this project.
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C
Well, I'm presently the Thomas Hunter professor of Public Policy at Hunter College in New York. How did I get started on this? Well, it goes back a long way. I first became involved in education in 1978 when my dissertation advisor became Chancellor of Schools in New York and asked me to join his staff. I served with him for three years. Then I spent some time at the Harvard Graduate School of Education. I taught there for a while and did more research, completed a book there. Over the years, I've been involved in education ever since. I was. I had helped the new superintendent of schools in Boston, but Spillane, when he took office there, I ran his transition. When my friend from New York, Bill Rojas, became superintendent of schools in San Francisco, I ran his transition. I've been working on education issues ever since. And this book is sort of a. It's a history, but the history is. Is. Is told through personalities. Four particular people with whom I've worked and known for many years who were part of this conversation going on for mid 20th century, I guess, or later 20th century. And so the story is told, the history is told through their work. Each one, in their own way, has made a significant contribution to the conversation about race and schooling. The four people are Rhonda Edmonds, Jack Koons, Diane Ravitch and Howard Fuller. As I was developing this and trying to develop the story, I kept hearing two other voices in the background, and I couldn't quite tell who they were. And they. Finally, I figured it out when I looked further into the literature and it was Derek Bell, the father of critical race theory, and James Coleman, who I believe was the most influential social scientist of the 20th century. What's interesting about the narrative here is how the lives of these six individuals blended together to help us understand a dialogue that has taken place, unfortunately, for over 70 years, since Brown v. Board of Education outlawed segregation in schools and said that each student, each individual, has an equal right to an education under the law. We haven't quite filled up, lived up to that promise. And that's why this story is also.
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A
About failure, radical dreamers. How did you come up with that title?
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C
I wanted to let people understand that the history is being driven by individual people. And I came up with it trying to put. Trying to describe them. And it's funny, I recently had a conversation with Jack Koons, who's one of the figures in this. Jack is 96 years old and he read the manuscript of the book. Of course, when I sent him the book with the title on it, he said to me, joe, why are we radicals? He says, all we're saying is that poor kids should have the same opportunities as other kids. Why is that radical? And I think that size, that really said a lot about the situation we're in. Why is it radical to say all children deserve an equal opportunity? And unfortunately, it Is because it's so far off from where we are. It suggests a very tall mountain to climb.
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A
Absolutely. You know, in your book, you argue that school chores movement has strayed away from its roots among many activists, black activists. When and how did this shift occur? Was it one event?
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C
It's been gradual, but it certainly took a very sharp turn very recently. So the first, the initial, I mean, school choice can be broken down into two major parts. There's government making funds available for children to attend non public schools, and then there's charter schools, which are public schools. The early programs for private school choice that came out of Milwaukee and Cleveland came about through a coalition of black activists, conservatives, some religious organizations. And the objective was to provide opportunities for underserved, underprivileged, mostly black children in those two cities, Milwaukee and Kuwait. And that's what we were about. And there were certain conditions that were written into the laws. Not only were there were limits on the income a child family could have to participate, There was provisions that if eventually, if schools higher, private schools participated in these programs, they had to accept most of the scholarship as their tuition. And there was eventually accountability built into the laws so that you weren't just giving money out to anyone or any school. That's changed significantly over the last since the pandemic. School choice is something very different. Now. School choice, we have universal choice programs in about 16 or 17 states so that everyone is eligible. And we have different kinds of programs, many of which do not come with any accountability. And so it's a very different profile and very different objectives.
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A
Now you analyze race and choice. To what extent do you believe that the failure of American education is primarily a race issue or an income issue?
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C
It's both. It's race and income. But as we know, black and brown children are disproportionately come from poor families. So you can't escape the race issue. And race is something that's been prominent in this conversation since 1954, Brownlee Board of education, when black children were being prohibited to go to public schools because of the color of their skin. And you know, lo and behold, 71 years later, public schools are still segregated. That's not much progress on that.
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A
On that note, no civil rights connection. How did the initial calls for school choice from black activists relate to the goals of the civil rights movement?
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C
It depends on who you ask. If you look at the people who were very much involved, it was black leadership that came out of these cities. Howard fuller was certainly a key player. Other black leaders in Milwaukee and Cleveland. So it was very much part of a civil rights movement. You know, as I tell these stories, there's a kind of a. There's a sequence of developments. And if you trace the history, no matter what city we visit in this book, it starts with. I start with 1954 Brown v. Board of Education. That was about desegregation. It went from desegregation to busing, forced busing. Then there was the ballot fought over fiscal equity. Once Jack Coons, one of my other major figures, became involved in a lawsuit in California which showed that. He argued the case which showed that property poor districts did not get as much funding as properly rich districts. So poor kids did not get equal funding. And he said there was a problem with that that led to a revolution in school finance cases that reach 48 states. So we start with desegregation, and then we go to forced busing. We have fiscal equity, which you still don't have, by the way. Then the next stage of it is we had community control movements that took place. The most traumatic was an Ocean Hill Brownsville in Brooklyn and New York. But we also see it again in Milwaukee with Howard Fuller. And that's basically black parents saying, look, you're not educating our kids. Let us set up our own community schools and let us educate our kids. Just stay out of our way. That didn't succeed either. So I think that kind of led to what I would consider the last chapter in this school choice, where most of the advocates in this particular movement saw choice as a way again of getting control over their schools and allowing black parents to make choices on where they would send their kids to school. Howard Fuller made a much made another interesting point. And as I got to know him, I internalized it. He said choice was not just about educational opportunity. Joyce was about power. He identified with black power. He was a black power advocate. And he says, you know what? If our kids had the ability to move from a public school and go to another school, take the funding with them, people would start to take. To pay more attention to our kids. And so that, to me, is the progression. So if you look at it, you know, in response to your question, yeah, this is an extension of the civil rights movement. This is about the rights of black people to educate their children as they choose and to in the process, get a decent education for their children like.
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A
Other people, get vouchers and alternative schools. What did the early proponents of school choice feel that were the necessary options?
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C
Well, as I said earlier, it was to receive some kind of support to A family or parents to allow them to send their children to schools they wanted. It was a compromise victory from the very beginning. And this is part of the story. And you know, as I said, the irony of the story of school choice is that when it first came about, the major opponents to it were people who are generally identified with the left or liberalism because they thought it was, it was, it was compromising public education. And they not only opposed the passage of these laws, when the laws were passed, they lobbied the legislatures to underfund them. So in both Cleveland and Milwaukee, the per capita amount allocated to these children who are participating in the experiments to help poor kids was about one third of what students get in their local public schools. So they were underfunded to begin with. And so, you know, as the research started coming in, people will say, well, you know, we've tested this. These kids aren't doing a whole lot better than the kids in the public schools. They would never mention the fact that, well, you gave them one third of the resources. What can you expect? If they're doing almost as well, they actually are doing pretty well. And so that's one piece of the story. The other piece of the story, which we alluded to earlier, is that as you got through to the later stages of this debate, so called conservatives who are usually worried about accountability and funding, have been spending with abandon on these programs in 35 states where you have unlimited, almost unlimited spending in different ways, spending to giving, allocating money to people who don't need it, who already have their kids in private schools with very little accountability in many places. So it's an extraordinary story of how both the left and the right have played their own roles in undermining something that was really designed to help poor struggling kids and the people who got hurt in either case, other poor struggling kids who didn't get what they needed. Derrick Bell had a wonderful theory about this. As I mentioned earlier, Derek, one of my characters in the book, is considered the father of critical race theory. And he called it the interest convergence dilemma. He said, white people will support black people politically so long as your interest coincide, and when they no longer do, they'll part ways. And this is a wonderful illustration that Howard Fuller's career, which they track in two chapters, is a wonderful explanation of that concept. And Howard knew Derek, he knew him well. And he will tell you that Howard as an emeritus professor from Marquette university with a PhD, and he could speak to these issues both as an intellectual and as an activist. But that very much tells the story, not Only of choice, I guess, but of racial politics and racial issues in this country going back as long as you want to look. And that's why I think the history here is important. The choice issue is kind of a window into looking at a larger history which you obviously prepped onto when we started this conversation.
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A
Yes. Tell us more about Ron Edmonds. He had a very short life, but what did he see in terms of education?
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C
Ron was dear friend. Ron and I, when I got my first job working the chancellor's office in New York, we had hired Ron. Ron was at Harvard at the time, time doing research on effective schools. And Ron came in as our senior advisor on instruction. So Ron really designed our educational agenda and he became, I can't call him a mentor because we, we palled around. We'd go out, work for trains, we would have dinner. I got to know his family, he got to know womanhood, became my wife. We became close. Ron's contribution is so important. First, the idea that all children can learn. Ron was motivated by research that was coming out of the University of Chicago and at Harvard. James Coleman's original work, which found that the reason why black children were not succeeding in school was not because of the schools, but it was about their home environment and culture. And Sandy Jenks, who was a professor more senior than drawn at Harvard, did research along those lines reexamining the Coleman data and came to the same conclusion. Well, that really motivated Rob, who was a black man, came from modest background and said, well, if that's what you believe. He said, first of all, it became a great justification for people who didn't want to spend money on schools because they would say, well, it doesn't matter anyway. But more than that, he said, if that's what really believe you really believe, then you know, you might as well just give up. And it was interesting when he came to 110 Livingston street, which is the headquarters New York at the time. Remember the. And I tell the story in the book. I remember the first meeting we had of the chancellor staff and the chancellor wanted to put out a white paper and say, this is what we tend to do here. These are going to be our goals. And you can, you can look at, you can evaluate us and two years, three years, four years and see how we're doing it. One of the old timers and assisting said raised his hand and said, you're crazy for doing that. There's only so much you can do with these kids. And Ron Edmonton sitting at the table and Ron really became very upset and said, well, if that's what we believe, then we ought to all go home. We have no right to be here. And the chancellor greed began. And so Ryman made an extraordinary contribution about. He went on and did research on what would deem the effective schools movement to demonstrate that there were schools that were working for poor kids and to try to replicate what they were doing to show that it is doable. But his idea that all children can learn and the refutation of that attitude, you realize that that attitude is so pervasive. That's one of the obstacles you're working against when you're trying to implement programs that are going to benefit these kids. And every time I see it, I think of Ron and why it was so important for him to make that point so dramatically as he did. When did making plans get this complicated? It's time to streamline with WhatsApp, the secure messaging app that brings the whole group together. Use polls to settle dinner plans, send event invites and pin messages so no one forgets mom 60th and never miss a meme or milestone. All protected with end to end encryption. It's time for WhatsApp message privately with everyone.
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A
Learn more@WhatsApp.com now you also talk about Jack Koons in what he stood for and in in the educational arena. You talked about that a little bit, but is there anything else you like to say?
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C
Very much so. Jack was a law professor at UC Berkeley, University of California, Berkeley. And as I mentioned earlier, he argued the first school finance case in 1971, the Serrano case, which led to a revolution in school financial reform for equity and funding. Beyond that, he and his junior colleagues came up to the model of how we might rectify some of these inequities. And one of the things they came up with was a proposal for school choice that was designed to help vulnerable children. And as I mentioned earlier, it was voucher or scholarship, depending on what you want to call it, given to kids on the basis of income, with a regulatory structure to make sure that any participating school accepts the tuition voucher as full payment because if it only pays a margin of marginal amount of the tuition, then you're basically excluding those kids because they can't afford the balance and that these schools meet certain criteria. Jack became the chief antagonist to Milton Friedman, who's considered the father of school choice, Nobel prize winning economist, who I believe was well intentioned and argued that if you want to improve education, you should have universal choice and the market will weed out those schools that are weaker because Parents will not choose to go to those schools when they're empowered to take the money anywhere they want. It was a reasonable argument, but it wasn't one that was going to work for poor kids. And so Jack and Milton knew each other well, and both originally in Chicago and then they both wound up in California. And Jack and Milton debated each other over and over again on this issue. They knew each other. And so Jack, I see Jack as kind of the father of this, what I would call a progressive model of school choice.
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A
Now you talk about Diane and her different voice. Why was she so different?
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C
Well, Diane and I worked together for eight years and we ran a program together, we wrote together, we published four edited volumes together. Julianne is someone who kind of speaks her mind and doesn't care who she rattles. She's very, she is articulate, she's prolific. Probably the most well read education historian in my time. And Diane started out on this as a big supporter of school choice and standards. And she actually is the one who kind of brought me around when I first met her. I didn't agree with that. And we talked and talked and talked. And finally I got it. It was an article, an essay she wrote called Somebody's Children, which was very persuasive, saying how it's important to provide opportunities for kids to get out of failing schools. I mean, there are kids who generation after generation attend schools that are just not doing well and it's not going to change their lives anymore for the better. She finally renounced that and came around to a different kind of thinking and came out against choice and standards because she didn't think it was going to work. And so there were other things she wrote about that I think were equally important in her reversal about the need to, for example, if we don't deal with this growing and unprecedented gap in income and wealth that has defined this country in a unique way. Trying to help poor kids get ahead at school is such an uphill battle. And she's not a legitimate point there that I agree with, but I wouldn't say we should give up no one. I think she would. And so she had a turnaround and I think her turnaround, I do a before and after chapter with Tayida and I think TRA Trina Rail provides a nice arc in the narrative of the book. And it kind of forecasts where the choice movement was going and where we are now. So it's a legitimate. There were legitimate concerns. She had.
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A
Chapter 9, Black Women Center Stage. What's going on there?
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C
Oh, that's one of my favorite chapters. People keep coming back to. It's a very short chapter. You know, I was writing about. You know, the way I got to write this book was I was doing a podcast when I had been involved in one of the major cases. I did expert testimony in the Zellman case that came before the Supreme Court. And there was another case coming up in later years, and I was interviewed about it. And the person who interviewed me said, well, you know, how do you feel about these issues? And I said, my position pretty much stays the same. And he says, well, how did you get to your position? And that's how I got to start writing this book. And I said, well, you know, I. I got to it by learning from other people. And I mentioned before my four major characters and two characters that interacted with him. And I said, you know, the four major. Of six of them, I had three black men because they just happened to be people I knew. But I had. And I had Diana's one, but there were no black women. And I said, you know what? I can't send a message in this book that this is all about men, because there are women that were very. This whole movement would not have occurred without people like Polly William in Milwaukee and other actors. And so I added a chapter about women who played what I thought played a major role in this movement and told their stories, told the story about Cleveland and how choice came about there, and then told the story of. Of my experience in New York with a woman called Babette Evowitz, who was very active in New York. And again, whose story takes you through, Ms. Fanny Lewis, who was the one woman in. She was a city council member in Cleveland who became the heart and soul of the movement out there. And Babetta Edward was such an important figure in Harlem going back to the original attempt to desegregate schools in Harlem when no white people wanted to be involved, providing a. Segregate. A desegregated school in Harlem that white folks didn't want to participate in an integration experiment. It was she who became involved very much with the community control movement. She was involved in going what they call swearing at a people for of education at the headquarters of the school system and protesting the decisions that were coming down. And she, you know, she eventually went to jail for it. An interesting woman who comes out of the projects. And if you go back to her story, how did she get involved in schools? One of her neighbors in the project said. And she said, you know, I just realized my child goes to one of the local schools here and they have no textbooks. She said, I went up to talk to the principal and he dismissed me as if I was irrelevant. And that led to what they call living room meetings. And Babette then formed a parent organization that was around until she died in various pre incarnations. And she became a very important voice in New York that helped enact the charter school law and picked up a doctorate along the way. She was a really impressive woman. And so I tell her story also, and my connection to her and how I met her, which was an interesting story in itself. She invited me up to Parliament speak when New York state was considering a charter school law. She was bringing up experts to talk about what it meant. And I knew who she goes, but I didn't really know her. I get a call in my office and it's her. And she's, you got to get up here. That's how she stuff. That's how she started the conversation. She does. And she told me what she was doing, and of course I wasn't going to say no. Her. And I went up and it was a parent meeting and it was about, what. What's this charter school law about? And so there was three people on the. She, she, you know, she calls a meeting to order. The three of us on the stage. One of them had been the Bob Belfuri, who was the governor's press secretary at the time. Another was somebody who was sort of cool on charters, and me and, you know, we, we gave our presentations and then we turned to the audience for questions. And it was. The audience was full. We were in the Adam Clayton Powell office, state office building. The audience was full mostly with women here, and they were all black. And there's one black white face in the audience who's very well known education writer who's not a supporter of charters. And he raises his hand and he asked a question, well, what are we going to do here if the Ku Klux Klan and the Nazi party want to open a choreograph school in Harlem? So I was about to answer the question, and this large woman gets up in the back of the room, stands out, puts her hand in here and says, I'll answer that. She certainly will. And she said, I'll tell you what we'll do. She says, if the Ku Klux Klan comes to Harlem and the lazy party come to Harlem and they want to open school, we're not going to go. And everybody starts laughing. Then she made a point and she says, you know, we're not worried about The Nazis in the Ku Klux King, Komarlem. What we're worried about is the school that's there now. Only 20% of our children could read. That's what we worried about, she said. And she closed the statement. She says, we know what's good for our students. We know what's good for our kids. And that was the message of the evening. And that was my encounter with Babette. And as I said, when I wrote the piece in the book, I said I learned more from those women that night than I could have ever taught them. And it's an important part of the story because black women, you know, I go into a little more talk about the role of black women are, you know, they, they're the, they're the, they're the people who are taking care of their children and trying to get a better opportunity for it. And if you look at the action, you know, there are other women I mentioned, like Deborah McCiff, who became superintendent schools and Detroit and other things, who I knew well, I still know well. And so that had to be part of the story. I couldn't leave that out just because of the people I worked directly with were mostly men.
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A
Yes. Now, what is the single most urgent action that you would give a policymaker to correct the American failure of education?
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C
What I tell them is you can start by listening to parents and see what they want and not just parents who are doing okay. You gotta listen to parents whose kids are not doing because they now may not want the same thing. You know, I hear a lot of middle class folks, and I tell a story about that in the book too. We're big defenders of public schools and how can you do this? And, you know, I'm not against public schools at all. I mean, I. Quite the contrary. I worked in three public school systems, superintendent's office. But we have to admit that some are not working. And so when you want to know what to do, you don't ask the parents whose schools are working. You ask the parents whose schools are not working. You go up to Harlan and get in that room with a room full of parents and hear what they have to say. And if you don't get it by the time you walk out of the room that night, you never know yet.
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A
Well, what is the overall message that you want the reader to take away with once they finish your book?
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C
I think we first have to admit to ourselves this is not working, that the status quo is not working. And, you know, that sounds somewhat obvious, but if it is, why aren't we doing more. And I'll tell you why I think we're not doing more. And it goes back to Ron Edmonds. We're not doing more. Because deep down inside, many people believe that's the best you can do with those kids. And that's why it was so important for me to stop this story with my friend Rod Edmonds. And I carry that with me from the day we met, that you have to appreciate that. And, you know, the book was an experience for me. And one of the things I write about in the book was, what is it? I mean, not only that admitting that we failed and that we failed miserably with black and brown children especially, but learning from that experience. And you only learn from it when you speak to the people who live it. And so, you know, at one point in early part of the book, I said, you know, what is this? Like, you know, here I am, this white guy who, you know, has done a lot of work in education. Who am I to write about race? You know, actually talked to some of my friends, African American friends about it. And I realized, yeah, you can write about it. If you listen to what other people have to say. And, you know, if you experience, you know, a relationship with somebody like, or Ron Edmonds or Howard Fuller, who has passion and commitment and is dedicated his life to, and he will tell you he's all about black and brown kids, you start to see it through their eyes in a way that you cannot appreciate it if you don't get closer to the story and develop relationships with people who not only understand it intellectually but feel it. You know, I, I, I, I kept, I sing several parts of the book. It's one thing to learn something intellectually, but when you work with somebody who has such a personal stake that I could not, as a white person, I could not fully appreciate, because the stake I have in it is not the same as the stake they have in it. But if you listen and try to understand the situation that they are trying to resolve, you know, Ron came from a very poor family. And I tell a story in the book that a couple years ago when I got back into the. I had lost touch with his family. You know, we knew them. I knew his last time I saw him when his son Danny, they, they had moved through Michigan, where he took the job at Michigan State. And I was teaching Harvard at the time. And they were coming back to Cambridge because Danny had to have the braces removed. That tells you how young bent Danny was. And Devon said, we're going to Our favorite restaurant. Why don't you and Rosemary, significant other, why don't you join us for dinner? It'll be our last dinner at our favorite restaurant. So we went to dinner with them, and I hadn't seen them in many years. And so when I got to write the book again, I went back to this. I was Talking to Deborah McGriff, who is another African American woman who becomes important part of the story also. And she says, you know what, Joe? I have a friend in California who's next door neighbor to Daniel Edmonds. Would you like me to tell him that we. That you're writing the book? I said, please do, because we've lost touch. And of course, that day I get a call from Dan as I knew him as Danny. And by this time, Danny is semi retired. He has two children in college. He's not a kid who just had his braces removed. And he said, we got to get our families together. And his mother and sister was still living in Massachusetts. And we. And we did. They were coming down and his sister and her two sons were going to visit. There's a school named after Ron, and there's a park next to it that's named after Ron. And they were going to insist that Kristin wanted to show the kids that school and the park. So they were going to go down there. And Karen, their mom, was with us, and they spent the day with us here at our house. And Karen told me a story that I thought really kind of explained Ron in a way that I never appreciated before. And it was Ron would always get angry when people would make this assumption about black people and their ability to. To learn and the families they came from. It's just, you know, Ron had a twin brother, and I knew that. He says his brother never went to college. He was a worker and, you know, laborer. And Ron always thought he was the smarter of the two, his brother. And I said, boy, that tells you a lot. I said, now I know when people look at people who look like him and make assumptions about what their ability to learn is, because he had a twin brother who people made that assumption about all the time. And they could have made it about him, too. He was teaching at Harvard at the time. And I could see how it kind of dawned on me how personal it was to him. And it put a finishing touch on the story that if I hadn't seen Karen that day, I wouldn't have known it. But I did know about his brother, but I didn't know that particular connection.
- [39:47]
A
Well, I've taken up enough of your time. Professor, can you tell us the next project you'll be working on?
- [39:55]
C
Oh, boy. I'm going to be writing. I like writing essays. I'm not ready for another book yet. This is number 12. So I've been doing some writing about New York. We have a new mayor coming in who's very. Who has a very distinct view of where we are and where we need to go. I'm going to do some writing about that. I'm going to spend a little more time talking about this book, which has taken several years to write, and try to get the message out. And I have to say I appreciate you for the preparation you put into this in getting right to the issue from the very beginning about this is this is really a history. That choice is kind of a window to looking at the larger issues that we've been dealing with for 70 plus years. And so that's where I am at this point.
- [40:52]
A
Well, we look forward to those essays and thank you so much for being on the podcast.
- [40:58]
C
Thank you.