New Books Network Podcast Summary

Episode: Joseph Straus, "Cultural Narratives of Old Age in the Lives, Work, and Reception of Old Musicians" (Routledge, 2024)
Host: Emily Allen
Guest: Dr. Joseph Straus
Date: February 15, 2025

Overview

In this insightful episode, Emily Allen interviews Dr. Joseph Straus about his book, Cultural Narratives of Old Age in the Lives, Work, and Reception of Old Musicians. Straus explores how old age is culturally constructed within music, arguing that “musicing oldly”—composing, performing, or engaging with music in old age—should be seen as a valuable difference rather than a deficiency. He discusses how cultural scripts and systemic ageism shape the experiences of older musicians and considers how musical practice in later life can resist and rewrite ageist assumptions. The episode delves into interdisciplinary perspectives shaped by disability studies and age studies, examines representations of old age in classical music, and proposes alternative ways to value musical contributions of older individuals.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Dr. Joseph Straus' Background and Entry Point into Age Studies

• Academic Journey: Dr. Straus identifies as a full-time music theorist and part-time musicologist, specializing in modernist music and, in recent decades, engaging deeply with disability studies.
  • Notable Quote:

    "I've been teaching music theory for a long time, for the last 40 years... at the City University of New York... For most of my career... I've mostly written and taught about post tonal theory and modernist music... But starting about 20 years ago, I also got interested in issues of disability and I've written a bunch about that." (03:30)

• Personal Motivation: The impetus for this project was introspective; as Straus aged, he began to reframe his own experience through disability studies, seeing old age less as pure decline and more as a distinctive, cultural mode of being.
  • Notable Quote:

    "This project started with a look in the mirror. I'm 70 years old and I'm engaged in the long and sometimes strenuous process of learning to live in an old body." (04:20)

On Age Studies and Its Relation to Disability Studies

• Cultural Construction of Old Age: Straus emphasizes that, while old age exists biologically, its meaning and experience are extensively cultural—shaped by societal scripts, media, and expectations.
  • Notable Quote:

    "Old age is real, of course... but the experience of old age and the perception of old age, those are cultural products." (05:54)

• Comparison to Disability Studies: Both fields challenge the view of “deficient” bodies, insisting that difference need not equal deficit. However, there's been reluctance for both age studies and disability studies to directly engage with one another, often due to internalized stigma in both communities.
  • Notable Quote:

    "The two fields have not been in good dialogue... because the age studies people... have somewhat of an anti disability bias. They don't want to be identified with people whose bodies are perceived as being defective in some way... And the disability studies people haven't wanted to identify with the age studies people because they've accepted tacitly the stigma attached to old age." (08:04)

Main Claims of the Book: "Musicing Oldly" Is a Difference, Not a Deficit

• Redefining Old Age in Music Making: Straus argues for recognition that music making in old age is not a diminished form but a valid, creative, and often innovative mode of musical engagement.
  • Notable Quote:

    "Musicing oldly is a distinctive and valuable way of musicing, a difference, not a deficit to be celebrated, not ignored or condemned." (10:28)

  • He emphasizes parallel thinking to disability studies—valuing what is created "in and through and with their old bodies."

Ageism in Classical Music: Systemic Issues and Cultural Scripts

• Classical Music's Ageist Tendencies:
  • Older musicians are often marginalized if their performances deviate from youthful norms (e.g., vocal wavering, slower tempos).
  • Classical music ideology prizes youth, novelty, and productivity.
• Cultural Scripts:
  • Decline Narrative: The dominant story frames old age as inevitable decline and unproductivity.
  • Slow Work: Slower production or performance by older individuals is often stigmatized, rather than recognized as legitimate or even preferable in some contexts.
  • Notable Quote:

    "The most prevalent cultural script for old age is the story of old age as decline... In fact, international happiness studies show very consistently that people in their 70s and 80s are generally more satisfied with their lives than people in their 30s and 40s." (15:43)

Operatic Tropes and the Representation of Old Age

• Typified Roles:
  • Old operatic characters are usually secondary, often cast as obstacles or sources of comic relief (e.g., Don Pasquale, Rigoletto’s aged avenger).
• Stereotypes Persist:
  • Even contemporary operas rarely cast old characters as protagonists or romantic leads.
  • Directors have not meaningfully experimented with making age a creative variable in staging.
  • Notable Quote:

    "Old characters in opera are generally confined to certain kinds of roles... If you're looking for the protagonist... these are always presumptively young... Their romantic pretensions are absurd, they're too old for love, and their comeuppance is celebrated amid general laughter." (19:17)

Composing Oldly: Stereotypes and Historiographical Bias

• Two Main Stereotypes:
  • The "sage of late style"—endowed with mythical wisdom about death.
  • The "fallen genius"—a once-great mind in steep decline.
• Neglect of Older Composers: Most older composers are simply ignored, their late works excluded from critical and historical commentary unless they fit one of these two scripts.
  • Notable Quote:

    "Most old composers don't even rate a stereotype because they're generally ignored even when they're continuing to compose at a very high level." (25:06)

• Internalization of Decline: Many older musicians absorb ageist messages, attributing setbacks to decline, even when their output and creativity persist.

Performance and Listening "Oldly"

• Valuing the "Sound of Old Age": There’s potential for classical music to recognize and celebrate characteristics sometimes dismissed as deficits (e.g., changes in voice, tempo, or technique) as markers of experience, authenticity, and wisdom.
  • Notable Quote:

    "I'm trying... to imagine a more inclusive world of classical performance where the sounds of old age would not only be tolerated, but actually welcomed." (29:37)

• Opera Casting and Staging: Suggests that age, like race or disability, could be explored creatively, potentially transforming narratives.
• Intergenerational Dynamics: The expectation that elders retire into mentorship roles alone can obscure the continued creative potential of older musicians.
  • Notable Quote:

    "It does often entail a denial of the creative powers of old people. And I think that's a loss for all of us." (31:58)

Listening, Thinking, and Doing Scholarship Oldly

• Listening Oldly: Straus argues for recognizing the value of mature listeners who engage differently—sometimes with greater depth, sometimes with liberated curiosity and pleasure.
  • Notable Quote:

    "I am interested in enacting and describing what it means for me to listen, think, study, analyze, theorize, and write about music from the vantage point of my old age..." (33:46)

• Reflections on Scholarship: Research can deepen, slow, and focus more on pleasure in later career stages—a strength, not a symptom of decline.

Core Takeaway: Old Age as a Cultural Construction

• Fluidity & Positivity: Straus returns to the central insight that old age is not a fixed, natural state nor synonymous with decline. Its meanings are shaped by cultural context and can—and should—be reframed to include flourishing and active participation in musical life.
  • Notable Quote:

    "Old age is a cultural construction. It's not natural, it's not given. Its meanings are not fixed, they're not biologically determined. Old age can mean lots and lots of different things..." (36:49)

Notable Quotes & Moments

• Musicing Oldly as Difference Not Deficit

  "I want to think of music in oldie the way that disability studies thinks about disabled bodies, not as a problem to be overcome, but as a source of creativity." (10:28; Joseph Straus)

• On Operatic Tropes

  "The old fool is a comic figure who not only tries to block the young lovers, but even imagines himself as a fit companion for the young heroine... Their romantic pretensions are absurd, they're too old for love, and their comeuppance is celebrated amid general laughter." (19:17; Joseph Straus)

• Resistance to Age-Centric Staging in Opera

  "Directors, to my knowledge, have never made a conscious decision to foreground age as one of the variables in a production." (22:24; Joseph Straus)

• Performance World Commentary

  "Frankly, [classical music] values the score more than it values the people. So if you can't play fast enough or in tune enough, you're through. It doesn't have to be that way." (29:37; Joseph Straus)

• Listening and Scholarship Oldly

  "The work is slower, but as we discussed earlier, slow can be good. We have no more rungs to climb on the career ladder usually, and we can do our work for the sheer pleasure of it." (33:46; Joseph Straus)

Major Timestamps

• Dr. Straus' Background & Motivation — 03:30–05:34
• Age Studies and Disability Studies—Definitions and Tensions — 05:54–09:40
• Main Book Claims: Valuing Old Age in Music — 10:28–12:27
• Ageism and Cultural Scripts in Classical Music — 12:27–18:32
• Operatic Stereotypes and Tropes — 19:17–24:17
• Composers and the "Late Style" Stereotype — 25:06–28:37
• Performing Oldly: Beauty, Standards, and Inclusion — 29:37–32:41
• Listening Oldly: Scholarship and Pleasure in Later Life — 33:46–36:49
• Conclusion: Old Age as Cultural Construction & Final Thoughts — 36:49–38:53

Closing Insights

Straus’ work challenges listeners and musicians alike to reconsider how age is perceived in musical life—calling for recognition of old age as a site of creative, performative, and intellectual distinctiveness. He highlights the urgent need to move past ageist scripts and value the unique musical contributions that come with age. The episode closes with Straus mentioning his forthcoming project on antisemitism in classical music, continuing his focus on bodies marked as "other" by cultural scripts.

For Further Reading:
Joseph Straus, "Cultural Narratives of Old Age in the Lives, Work, and Reception of Old Musicians" (Routledge, 2024)