Episode Overview

Podcast: New Books Network
Episode Title: Joshua Eisenman and David H. Shinn, "China's Relations with Africa: A New Era of Strategic Engagement"
Date: October 8, 2025
Host: Nome Anthony Kanayot
Guests: Prof. David H. Shinn (Ambassador, George Washington University), Prof. Joshua Eisenman (University of Notre Dame)
Book Discussed: China's Relations with Africa: A New Era of Strategic Engagement (Columbia University Press, 2023)

Theme:
This episode explores the evolving relationship between China and Africa, focusing on the multidimensional, increasingly strategic nature of the engagement in recent years, as analyzed in Eisenman and Shinn’s latest book. The discussion ranges from historical contexts, political and economic strategies, security, technology, propaganda, and implications for African agency, as well as the shifting roles of the US and China in Africa.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Origins of Eisenman-Shinn Collaboration

• Chance Encounter: The co-authors first met "almost by accident" at a George Washington University event (03:22). Eisenman, then focused on China, sought African expertise; Shinn, an Africa expert, stepped in despite little China experience.
• Evolution with the Field: Their collaboration developed alongside the field itself, starting when few studied China-Africa relations. Their first book (2012) covered broad topics, but the new book hones in on underexplored political and security realms (04:34).
  • Quote (Eisenman, 06:36): "Our collaboration evolved with the topic itself...the political and security side wasn’t getting as much attention as it seemed China thought it deserved."

2. Africa’s Newfound Centrality in China’s Strategy

• Why Africa Matters Now:
  • Post-2010, China views Africa as critical to its global South leadership, given its “54 voting countries” (07:53).
  • China’s substantially increased economic, diplomatic, and people presence in Africa is both an opportunity and a risk, particularly in security (07:53).
    • Quote (Shinn, 09:41): “The greater the presence, the greater the engagement...the greater the likelihood that...bad things will happen.”
• Historical Ties:
  • China leverages the shared anti-colonial legacy and political nostalgia, especially with older African leadership, to foster goodwill (10:06).
    • Quote (Eisenman, 11:26): "The narrative of China as the leader of the global Sufferers Club...resonates more in a place where colonialism is more recent."

3. Multi-tiered and Sinocentric Engagement

• Multi-Tiered:
  • Bilateral ties remain foundational, yet China actively engages at regional (African Union, ECOWAS), subregional (SADC, IGAD), economic (COMESA), and international levels (BRICS, Indian Ocean organizations) (12:44).
• Sinocentrism:
  • China seeks a Sinocentric hierarchy, contrasting the West’s “rules-based order.” Within China’s “community of shared future,” China is the leader, and relations are hierarchical, not egalitarian (16:27).
    • Quote (Eisenman, 18:30): “For China, the community—like all communities—has a leader. And the leader...is China.”
• Strains in Bilateralism:
  • China’s bilateral approach has to account for African nations’ differing and sometimes conflicting interests, resulting in varying agency by country size and strategic value (19:44).

4. Asymmetry and African Agency

• Scope of Agency:
  • Agency isn’t binary; African states exercise different levels of leverage (25:31). Example: Djibouti’s strategic base offers outsized agency, though most smaller states have limited power.
    • Quote (Eisenman, 26:27): “The canoe has its agency, but the Chinese trawler has the capacity to swamp the canoe, both literally and figuratively.”
• Corruption and Collaboration:
  • Asymmetry is compounded by corruption—African elites sometimes facilitate China’s exploitative practices in fisheries, mining, forestry (30:38).
    • Quote (Shinn, 29:56): "...part of the problem there revolves around corruption in Ghana itself, where you have Ghanaian business interests collaborating with the Chinese owners..."

5. The Belt and Road Initiative (BRI) in Africa

• Afterthought to Centerpiece:
  • Africa was not an original BRI focus; its inclusion came after African leaders demanded involvement (32:27).
• Branding Existing Projects:
  • China rebranded pre-existing/coincidental efforts as BRI, creating an impression of a larger initiative (32:27, 34:36).
    • Quote (Shinn, 34:29): “You take...an ongoing policy, put...a name on top of it and start expanding it. You have a much more impressive policy than...starting from scratch.”
• Mixed Results:
  • Politically successful in branding China as a global leader, the economic sustainability of BRI (e.g., loan repayments) remains questionable (34:36).

6. Party-to-Party Exchanges and Political Influence

• Objectives:
  • China’s outreach seeks validation for its political system, encourages African parties to replicate CPC governance models, elicits support on global issues (Taiwan, South China Sea, Hong Kong), and cultivates networks throughout African parties (38:02, 39:48).
    • Quote (Eisenman, 41:12): “China has done actually quite a good job...and essentially getting what it wants out of these relationships.”
• Limits to Ideological Transfer:
  • China “shares” governance models rather than imposing them, and autocratic African regimes are more receptive (44:42).
    • Quote (Shinn, 48:25): “China does not come in...and demand you accept the Chinese governance lessons. The key word is it shares its governance lessons.”

7. Propaganda and People-to-People Relations

• Propaganda Tactics:
  • China employs multifaceted propaganda—media, education, culture—to “tell a good Chinese story,” but people-to-people relations lag behind governmental ties (51:50, 55:57).
• Mixed Perceptions:
  • US still enjoys more favorable perceptions across much of Africa, though recent US retrenchments may shift this (58:13).
    • Quote (Shinn, 59:32): “We could, the US could be in for a difficult period...”

8. Security Strategies and the Evolution of Non-Intervention

• Evolving Non-Intervention:
  • China’s principle of “non-intervention” is increasingly flexible; security concerns (evacuation, piracy, protecting nationals) have led to overseas bases (Djibouti) and use of private security (64:24, 66:07, 70:07).
    • Quote (Shinn, 66:07): “...the interpretation is changing and it’s just a question of how much you’re willing to acknowledge that things have in fact changed.”
• Private Security:
  • Chinese firms cannot bear arms, subcontract armed protection, or partner with local/western security companies (70:07).
• Implications for Africa:
  • So far, limited friction except in rare incidents (71:53); unique collaboration in South Africa (73:26).

9. Maritime Presence & Resource Extraction

• Naval Base Expansion:
  • China makes port calls and constructed its first overseas base in Djibouti under anti-piracy justification; further expansion is likely but not yet seen (74:42).
• Fisheries & Exploitation:
  • Chinese fishing trawlers operate with impunity, highlighting regional asymmetry and ineffectiveness of local regulatory bodies (78:02).
    • Quote (Eisenman, 79:04): “That impunity...really underscores this asymmetry.”

10. Technology, Surveillance, and Authoritarian Influence

• Tech Adoption Dilemma:
  • Chinese tech firms (Huawei, ZTE) dominate African markets with affordable products, creating development opportunities but raising surveillance/privacy concerns—particularly in authoritarian states (81:51).
    • Quote (Shinn, 82:41): “It’s almost a match made in heaven when it comes to the more authoritarian governments.”

11. African Perceptions of China as Teacher vs. the West

• Why African Leaders Accept Chinese Guidance:
  • China couches its lessons in “win-win,” respectful, and egalitarian-sounding rhetoric; pays attention to diplomatic protocol and symbolism, in contrast to Western “hectoring,” colonial baggage, and conditionality (85:38).
    • Quote (Eisenman, 87:04): “There’s China’s willingness. Perhaps the best example...the very first trip the Chinese foreign minister makes is to an African country for over 30 years now.”
    • Quote (Shinn, 89:51): "China really has done a brilliant job of taking maximum advantage of some of these slogans..."

12. Future Trajectories: US-Africa and China-Africa

• US-Africa Relations:
  • US withdrawal of aid, focus on trade/investment, and lack of high-level attention may spell hard times ahead (92:22, 95:24).
• China-Africa Relations:
  • Despite slower economic growth and reduced loan capacity, China is expected to deepen political/security engagement, but the “heady” days of exponential growth may be over (95:24).
    • Quote (Eisenman, 95:24): “...I’m probably not as optimistic as I might have been two years ago...I don’t know that China has the kind of capacity...to continue to grow...at the pace it had been growing.”
• Zero-Sum Fallacy:
  • According to Afrobarometer and the authors, African attitudes are less about choosing between the US and China and more about practical, case-by-case engagement (98:47).

Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• "It was almost accidental how we connected..."
  — David Shinn, on initial collaboration (03:22)
• "Africa has become central to China's global strategy, particularly since 2010, with an emphasis on the global south."
  — David Shinn (07:53)
• "The community of shared future for mankind...has a leader, and the leader is China."
  — Joshua Eisenman (18:30)
• "You take an ongoing policy, put a slap a name on top of it and start expanding it. You have a much more impressive policy..."
  — David Shinn, on BRI branding (34:29)
• "The canoe has its agency, but the Chinese trawler has the capacity to swamp the canoe, both literally and figuratively."
  — Joshua Eisenman, on agency asymmetry (26:27)
• "China does not come in...and demand you accept the Chinese governance lessons. The key word is it shares its governance lessons."
  — Joshua Eisenman (48:25)
• "The US could be in for a difficult period in the coming years in its relations with Africa."
  — David Shinn (59:32)
• "There’s an adherence to the principle [of non-intervention] even while it’s evolving."
  — Joshua Eisenman (66:00)
• "For China, it’s a match made in heaven [tech plus authoritarianism]."
  — David Shinn (82:41)
• "Who wouldn’t want to go on one of those trips to see China?"
  — Joshua Eisenman, on Chinese diplomatic hospitality (87:23)
• "China has done a brilliant job...taking maximum advantage of some of these slogans."
  — David Shinn (89:51)
• "I don’t think the Belt and Road is going to be what it once was and I don’t think anything is going to replace it."
  — Joshua Eisenman (95:24)

Important Timestamps

• 03:22 – Origins of collaboration
• 07:53 – Africa’s centrality to Chinese global strategy
• 10:06 – Historical roots and anti-colonial nostalgia
• 12:44 – Defining features: multi-tiered, Sinocentric relations
• 16:27 – Chinese world order vs. Western "rules-based order"
• 25:31/26:27 – African agency & asymmetry metaphor
• 32:27/34:36 – BRI expansion and China’s rebranding strategy
• 39:48/41:12 – Party-to-party outcomes; Taiwan & political support
• 48:25/48:42 – On governance “sharing” not imposition
• 51:50/55:57 – Chinese propaganda, people-to-people efforts, soft power
• 59:32/61:37 – US-Africa perceptions amid US aid cuts
• 64:24/66:07 – China’s evolving non-intervention in security, overseas bases
• 70:07/71:53 – Private security companies, regulation gaps
• 74:42/78:02 – Expansion of Chinese maritime and fishing interests
• 81:51/82:41 – Technology, surveillance, and civil liberties
• 85:38/87:04 – Why African leaders are more receptive to Chinese than Western “teaching”
• 92:22/95:24 – Outlook for US-Africa and China-Africa relations

Conclusion

Eisenman and Shinn’s dialogue underscores the profound, multi-layered nature of China-Africa relations—grounded in both strategic calculation and historic bonds. While China’s economic might and diplomatic savvy have redefined Africa’s external partnerships, the relationship remains asymmetrical, fraught with agency dilemmas, and complicated by security, governance, and technological dimensions. As the US appears to retrench and China adapts to its own economic headwinds, African states are navigating both opportunity and risk—often pragmatically, sometimes ambivalently—in a shifting global order.

The episode is a rich resource for anyone seeking nuanced understanding of not just how China and Africa interact, but why—and what it means for the continent’s future.