Podcast Summary

Episode Overview

Podcast: New Books Network
Host: Nina Kunimoto
Guest: Karen Bartlett
Episode: "Escape from Kabul: The Afghan Women Judges Who Fled the Taliban and Those They Left Behind"
Release Date: September 5, 2025

This episode features a powerful conversation with journalist and author Karen Bartlett about her book "Escape from Kabul," which chronicles the stories of Afghan women judges during and after the Taliban takeover in 2021. The discussion explores the history, professional challenges, incredible resilience, and eventual evacuation of these women—offering both a gripping account of recent history and an intimate portrait of courage, sisterhood, and defiance.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

How the Book Came to Be

• Karen Bartlett's background: With extensive work in women's rights globally and a longstanding interest in Afghanistan, Bartlett felt compelled to tell this story after contact with both international and Afghan judges ([02:16]).
• Beyond breaking news: The project shifted from the immediate drama of evacuation to the deeper, ongoing stories of the judges’ work, daily lives, and the broader context behind their plight ([04:39]).

The Afghan Legal System and the Role of Women Judges

• Historic context: Afghanistan saw women judges as early as the 1960s, in parallel with many other countries ([06:05]).
• Judicial system explained: Afghan judges typically qualify young—often in their 20s—after a two-year training course post-law school, a contrast to the later appointments common in the West ([07:30]).
• Range of cases and challenges: Judges handled diverse and complex cases, including anti-corruption, narcotics, commercial law, and the reformed courts for elimination of violence against women ([09:45]).
• Notable case example: Anisa Rasooli's campaign against the practice of exchanging girls as restitution in legal disputes ([13:05])

Life, Risk, and Resistance as a Female Judge

• Absence of juries: Verdicts were delivered by a three-judge panel, intensifying personal responsibility and tensions between judges ([11:32]).
• Hostility and danger: Female judges were often sent to dangerous, unpopular regions both out of need and discrimination; these postings were dangerous and isolating ([16:00]).
• Daily realities: The podcast captures small but telling anecdotes—like a judge unable to leave her compound, and the cultural disconnects surrounding women’s autonomy, even in “sweet” family matters ([18:45]).

Diversity of Backgrounds and Barriers

• Educational paths: Judges’ backgrounds varied, influenced by Afghanistan’s ethnic divides, personal losses, and family support, with some coming from dominant families and others from persecuted Hazara communities ([22:27]).
• Childhood under Taliban rule: Stories of clandestine education, early trauma, and formative tales—like the fable of the girl who must cross a rainbow to become a boy—illustrate stark gender realities ([26:00]).

“Sisterhood” and International Connections

• International Association of Women Judges (IAWJ): Provided mentorship and facilitated exchanges, bringing Afghan judges to the US for immersion in judicial and everyday American life, sharing both humor and cultural surprise ([29:57]).
  • Memorable story: Judge Patty Whalen's attempts teaching Afghan women to drive, with comedic results ([31:45])
• Mutual discovery: Exchanges revealed the limits of outsider understanding, the complexity of Afghan society, and the deep bonds formed among peers ([33:50]).

Fall of Kabul and Emergency Evacuation

• Sudden collapse: The return of the Taliban in summer 2021 shocked both Afghan and international judges, overturning expectations of a gradual process ([38:38]).
• Escalating danger: Women judges were especially targeted after the Taliban released criminals from prison—many of whom had been convicted by these judges ([37:17]).
  • Quote: “Remember me? You sentenced me to 20 years for mass murder. I’m coming to find you.” ([37:17], paraphrased)
• International rescue effort: IAWJ and others (including the International Bar Association and Jewish Humanitarian Relief) raced to coordinate documentation, logistics, and funding for flights to get judges out ([38:38]).
  • Quote: “What am I going to say to these women?... We know we're in this moment. These people are our friends. We've got to help them.” – Susan Glazebrook, as recounted by Karen ([40:00])

Unsung Heroes and Complex Logistics

• Unexpected allies: Polish lawyer Anna played a key role, leveraging Holocaust memories and a personal sense of justice to secure evacuation routes for judges to Poland—going so far as to personally help them resettle ([45:52]).
• Hidden threats: The episode notes phishing emails from Taliban agents and the constant need to verify every actor’s trustworthiness ([47:05]).
  • Quote: “There’s also bad actors trying to get involved…part of what the IAWJ have to do is sort of suss out, you know, who are the people we can trust.” ([46:05])

Where Are the Judges Now?

• Diaspora: Most judges initially escaped to countries like Poland, Greece, Romania, Spain. Over time, many have resettled in the US, Canada, UK, Australia, and New Zealand, seeking to retrain or continue their legal careers ([49:33]).
• Ongoing struggles: Adapting to new legal systems, retraining, and living with the worry for family and colleagues still trapped in Afghanistan ([51:20]).

Hopes, Warnings, and Calls for Solidarity

• Hope versus normalization: The women express both hope for Afghanistan’s future and deep concern at the world’s “normalization” of Taliban rule:
  • Quote: “Please do not normalize this regime in any way and recognize, you know, the terrible atrocities and human rights abuses that are still being perpetrated…against women and girls in Afghanistan.” ([54:15])
  • Quote: “In some ways…the whole book is sort of their sadness at being, in a way, abandoned by the world.” ([55:20])
• Action items: The IAWJ continues to work on evacuating remaining women judges, with challenges mainly rooted in securing host country visas. Book proceeds support these ongoing efforts ([56:02]).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Opening the book with suspense:

  • “There is that sort of almost thriller-like quality of are these women going to be able to escape from this terrible jeopardy that they're in?” – Karen Bartlett ([04:39])

• On learning about Afghan society:

  • “I thought…that I really understood Afghanistan. And then I got there and I realized, like, I knew nothing about Afghanistan, and it was so much more complicated and nuanced than I'd realized.” – Recapped from Judge Patty Whalen ([33:50])

• On daily life and gender expectations:

  • “Why can't your wife just go and choose the ring and see if it fits herself?...‘No, of course not. My wife couldn’t possibly go out and go to a shop.’” – Anecdote about a fellow judge’s story ([18:45])

• On helping the judges escape:

  • “I can't say to them...‘You’re on your own and I’m not going to save your life.’” – Karen, relaying International Judges' resolve ([40:00])

• The global message:

  • “Their message is, you know, please don’t forget about us. We need to keep our story alive.” – Karen Bartlett ([55:20])

Key Timestamps

• [01:33]: Episode and guest introduction
• [02:16]: Bartlett’s background and origins of the project
• [06:05]: The evolution of women judges in Afghanistan and the judicial system
• [13:05]: Illustrative court cases and challenges
• [16:00]: Judges’ assignments in dangerous provinces
• [22:27]: Educational backgrounds, ethnic, and personal histories
• [29:57]: Exchanges with the International Association of Women Judges
• [38:38]: The Taliban’s return and evacuation crisis
• [45:52]: The role of international volunteers, with a spotlight on Anna
• [49:33]: Where are the judges now?
• [51:20]: Hopes and calls for the future
• [54:15]: Against normalization of Taliban rule
• [56:02]: Book’s proceeds support ongoing rescue efforts
• [57:59]: Where listeners can follow Karen Bartlett’s book events

Final Thoughts & Next Steps

The episode closes with reflections on the resilience and solidarity among women judges worldwide, the need for continued international support, and practical information about the book’s proceeds aiding future evacuations. For listeners interested in further action, attending events or spreading the word about the book are recommended next steps.

More information, upcoming events, and ways to support can be found at:
karenbartlett.co.uk

This episode is a compelling mix of history, personal testimony, and urgent activism—a vital listen for anyone seeking to understand the intersection of gender, law, and international solidarity in Afghanistan's most turbulent recent chapter.