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Karine Gagné, "Caring for Glaciers: Land, Animals, and Humanity in the Himalayas" (U Washington Press, 2019)
01:41:53
Gagné explores how relations of reciprocity between land, humans, animals, and glaciers foster an ethics of care in the Himalayan communities of Ladakh...
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C
Hello and welcome to the New Books Network. This is Kate Hartman, a host on New Books and Buddhist Studies, a channel on the New Books Network Network. We're here today to talk to Dr. Karine Gagnet, Assistant professor of Anthropology at the University of Gulaf. In her new book, Caring for Land Animals and Humanity in the Himalayas, Dr. Gagne explores how relations of reciprocity between land humans, animals and glaciers fosters an ethics of care in the Himalayan communities of Ladakh. She explores the way these relations are changing due to climate Change the growth of the wage economy at the expense of traditional agricultural and pastoral lifestyles, and increased military presence resulting from Ladakh status as a border area. So, welcome to Dr. Gangne. Thank you so much for joining us today.
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B
Well, thank you so much for the invitation.
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C
I'd like to begin by just asking, how did you get started in the anthropology of Ladakh? And how did you come to write this book?
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B
Yes. So I started grad studies in anthropology after I worked for a number of months for Tibetan NGOs in Dharamsala in North India. Before that, I had a background in film studies and film production, which I studied in college in my undergrad. So my training in cinema and film studies taught me that I needed a critical outlook on the world to make my work relevant. But I felt that I was not adequately equipped to do so. So I always knew I needed to study more for that. Especially I was thinking of the social sciences. But I thought, okay, this could wait. So I took a long break to experiment and cultivate different experiences. So one way of learning about the world is surely to travel and to read books. And this is what I decided to do first. So this is what eventually brought me to the Tibetan refugee community in India in the beginning of the 2000s. I spent my first six months there working on the film project for a local NGOs. It was documentary on the democratization of the Tibetan government in exile in light of the elections of 2006. So the Dalai Lama had asked that such a film reproduced and the Tibetan center for Human Rights and Democracy was in charge of the of producing the film. So I did that with them. I led the project, I remained active on that scene. And eventually I did more research work for different NGOs of Dharamsala. So in the process, I learned a lot about Tibetan culture, Tibetan history, Buddhism, current issues in Tibet and others. But I believe that what remained, the most significant, and perhaps I should say, like, inspirational aspect of my experience over the years was the friendship I developed with Tibetans. So in particular, I became very close to a group of friends who were all from Amdo in Tibet. And they were all herders in Tibet before they came as refugee to India. So we would often spend like evenings drinking, sharing food, mose in particular playing board game cards. And they would so often start singing these beautiful songs about Tibet, the landscape, their motherland. Songs that were very, very descriptive and quite tainted, I felt, with notions of morality. And we would also share stories, joke, sayings. And in any case, I must say I felt amazed at how animals and elements of the natural landscape were always dominant in their narrative. So I come from a rural area myself, and in some ways I think this background was, for various reasons, a point of connection with this group of friends. But in any case, I grew up around fields and cows, but. But this was sort of the background, the backdrop of my existence. That's really something that I was engaging with, except during the school breaks, I would work in the fields as summer jobs. But. But I guess there is something different when. When this universe is your primary means of subsistence, when farming and pastoralist activities are dominating the landscape, when you concretely interact with animals and with the pasture every day. So it shapes, I guess, like how you see yourself in the world in a certain way. And this transpires, among other things, in narrative. So I could clearly see a difference that. Like that there was something different here in terms of identity as it relates to place, but also the natural feature of that place in such a way I had never encountered before. So when I speak of, I really see a difference. I could clearly see that I had some background in my life in a rural area engaging with this type of environment, but it had never colored my existence in such a poetic manner as it did for them in this manner. So I felt like there is something interesting here. I need to understand this better. So slowly, this is how I started to develop an interest for people's relationship with the environment. So this was about 15 years ago, and it's also at that time that questions of receding glacier became very prominent in the media in various reports. So at some point I figured that the human dimensions of climate change is something I wanted to study. I wanted to focus on glaciers in the Himalaya. And I think I also knew at that time that I wanted this to be a project that will focus on the cultural aspects of climate change, how climate change is interpreted in certain worldview. So I wanted to do this project in Tibet first because of my connection with the people and with aspects of their cultural life. But because of my activism with the Tibetan cause, I was told, and also I sort of knew about this from certain experiences, that this was going to be very challenging. But also at that time, I had. By the time I finally decided to go back to school and start my grad studies in anthropology. By then I also had spent enough time in India to really like the place and appreciate so many aspects of the country. So I also had an interest for India for its history, for its diversity. And this eventually brought me to Ladakh as A place where to do this project. I had heard about Ladakh when I was in Dharamsala, but I never traveled to the place and there were things written about climate change and glacier in Ladakh, so Ladakh felt like the right place to do this project. So this book is basically based on my dissertation. All of the time I spent there doing research when I was doing my PhD studies, it of course changed a lot since then, but the bulk of the material discussed in the book was part of this project, written after 14 months of fieldwork in Ladakh and also another six months that I spent in the region after.
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C
What a great story. Hearing about how all of these threads of your own background in a rural environment, your friendship working with Tibetans, interest in film, and how that all comes together in the book is really great. So I found this to be an amazing, fascinating book, in particular because it deals with morality and ethics from an ethnographic point of view. Why do you think this is a particularly fruitful way of approaching ethics? And what does it capture that more philosophical or doctrinal, more traditionally Buddhist studies accounts of ethics might miss?
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B
Yes, thank you. This is a good question, always sort of challenging for me to answer in some way. But I would say like soon, when I was in the field doing research in the dac, I was struck by the different explanations provided by people to make sense of a changing environment. And here I'm referring to receding glaciers, warming temperatures, decrease in snowfall, and erratic weather patterns. So for instance, monks or other specialists who are generally referred to by Ladakhi as de educated people, by that they mean like, not the people who have this limited educational background because they spend their life working with the land and the animals. So the specialists and the people who are considered sometimes expert, I felt they were often articulating these change as a consequence of a lack of respect for deities. For instance, people are nowadays polluting a lot. So the Lu who are the deities that reside beneath the heart and in warrior sources, are offended. So these deities are reciprocating this disregard, if you will, by generating adverse environmental conditions. Another set of explanation is that more generally people are no longer interested in doing various rituals. So the deities feel disregarded and the people will face the consequences of that because the consequences can be adverse environmental condition. But the people who don't have the same background in terms of education, if we can say including religious education in our conversation often had other ideas, they were referring very often to more general ideas about reciprocity between people, between animals, peoples and animals. The Land and so on. So, for instance, herders and farmers would often interpret changes in the environment, such as receding glacier, for instance, as a result of people not caring for domesticated animal today, people not being interested in farming, and other variation of what is considered to be an outcome of being empty at heart, as people are often putting it. So the actual reference to the deities was generally not that common among many of my interlocutors. People spoke more about how people have become careless about so many things, animals, the land, the community value, and so on. This must, of course, be considered in light of the significant political and economic changes affecting the region since the past decade. But I think we'll get back to this. But in the field, during the very process of doing research, this is something which was very obvious. So in the field, as people got to know who I was and what research I was doing, they would sometimes suggest people I should talk to. And very often these were people considered knowledgeable because they had a certain degree of education. Often people would say, like, why? Why do you want to speak to this man? He's a herder, he doesn't know nothing. He hasn't been to school. And in this matter, these people, and I'm referring to, to the experts, like they. They often, very often, had a similar discourse, one which was like, oriented towards a more formal approach by emphasizing that a specific DD was not didi, was not considered or taken care of, so that the deity would be directly involved in unfavorable environmental outcome. So now there is a number of problem, in my view, with focusing too much on interpretations of processes, such as interpretation of changes in the environment, by emphasizing the doctrine as the most authoritative account, and by giving a voice primarily or even only to the people considered educated and knowledgeable in that matter. The first is that some would say there is a correct answer, a correct set of interpretation to make sense of these changes. This is a bit of an anecdote, but this is something that had me go through these questions in the beginning of my research. So during a conversation, I remember one elderly woman asking in a hushed voice to Namya, my research assistant, after a conversation in which she alluded to the deities to explain the decrease in snowfall, she asked him, like, did I provide the right answer? Is it what I should say? And then she was trying to validate with Namya, saying, like, this is what they say. No, the lama in their teaching. So again, the idea that there is like one set of answer which should be like the most authoritative account to explain something, but there is Here the idea that in some ways people were often sort of uncomfortable sharing their perspective because in their homewards they would say like, well, I'm just a simple farmer, I don't know why these things are taking place. I'm uneducated, I didn't go to school. You should talk to educated people. I mean, it was not that difficult to overcome this initial reticence because I would explain to people that my interest was in their own view that there is no right or wrong answer here. So in a way, some are aware that there is this sort of authoritative narrative out there and they feel challenged by this. In the same way, on a number of occasions I discussed the explanation provided by farmers and herder for environmental changes with some people who are considered the expert and then people like expert of their community and knowledgeable people. And on a number of occasions I was, well, this man or this woman is wrong because such thing doesn't exist in Buddhism or, or Buddhism does not see things as happening this way. So here again, whatever does not fall into Buddhism in this view or in a particular orthodox version, a version that rejects indigenous belief that may predate Buddhism or other interpretation, is deemed like. All of that is deemed inaccurate because it departs from a formal narrative about things. So I find this a bit troubling, especially if you're trained in a discipline like anthropology in which you start with the premise that you're learning from people and from their understanding of the world and of life processes. There has to be room for various interpretations. Of course there are like influences to these interpretations, but we have to allow for this sort of diversity. The second problem that I see with focusing too much on the doctrine is the assumption that everybody is well versed in religious matter and that everybody is attending religious teaching or absorbing even all the information during religious teaching. The third again problem that I see with that is the idea of pre established explanation, that all of these pre established explanations don't allow for people's interpretation and emotions regarding these changes. And what I found is that when people make sense of a changing environment, they do so in reference to what define their reality, the dilemmas that they are facing, and so on. And here recent historical changes become significant. So if we start from the premises that there is one set of possible explanations, one right way of understanding things, we also strip human being from their creative potential in understanding life processes. And maybe one last aspect where I see the contribution of focusing on morality and ethics from an ethnographic point of view is that we can see that what counts as morality and what counts as an ethical action can also develop in ways that don't necessarily have to do with books. So if we take the case of animals, for instance. Well, of course Buddhist texts have certain prescription with regards to the treatment of animals. But in practice, when people are living with animals and working with them in the mountains, there are forms of attachment that develop and are nurtured through these various relationships. And I see this as equally fundamental in some ways in shaping a moral universe. I like I care for things for be for other beings, not only because the book tell me I have to, but also because it's embodied in my own self, because I develop a sense of care through embodied interaction with glaciers, with domesticated animals and so on.
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C
I think you're exactly right on this front and that's part of why I wanted to interview you on the Buddhist Studies Channel of New Books Network, because I think that the lesson that your book teaches is really important for scholars of Buddhism and for especially textual scholars of Buddhism, of which I am one, because it's not taking this doctrinal kind of top down approach. It sees ethics as emerging from everyday interactions. And so I think that that's really fascinating and valuable.
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B
Oh, interesting.
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C
Yeah. So before moving on, perhaps we could provide listeners who may not be familiar with Ladakh with some contextualizing information. Can you tell us about perhaps the villages that you stayed in?
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B
Yes, sure. So Ladakh is a high altitude region in the Indian Himalaya in the very north of India. It has a very low population density, like it's about three inhabitants per square kilometer. I did my research in the district of Lehman, which is a very vast territory. It's 45,000 square kilometers. So this is really a vast area. In Ladakh, most settlements are located at an average altitude of 3500 meter, roughly. So the landscape is made of massive snow summits and settlements are built where water is flowing from the glaciers. In between the settlements you have these vast tracts of empty land which may at first seem like barren land with not much use, but much of this is actually grazing land and people are using the various resources that you can find there. Major rivers are flowing in the region, including the famous Hindus. That being said, rivers are by and large not used for agricultural purposes because they are significantly lower than fields. So the region is considered a cold desert. So it receives scan annual rainfall, precipitation. So farming here relies almost exclusively on the water created by the accumulation of snow and on glacier meltwater, which is brought to the fields through complex areas of channel. The Climate is typical of high altitude area with temperatures that can change dramatically between daytime and nighttime. So Ladakh has a long winter with temperatures dropping well below zero. And what makes life particularly challenging at this time of the year, at least from my perspective, is the absence of central heating. So one way, one always must wear many layers of clothes inside or outside, because it's cold all the time in winter, even inside the household. But I must say, the winter has this very strong, piercing high altitude sun. So it's quite pleasant to be outside during daytime in winter as well. So winter is challenging, but also very pleasant in many ways. But that is for the distinctive geography of the place. Now, Ladakh is very unique as well for its cultural liquidity, with influences from Tibetan Buddhism and from Islam. Ladakh was once part of the Tibetan Empire. And the boundaries between Ladakh and Tibet were established in 1684 after the death of the fifth Dalai Lama. And after that, Ladakh was ruled by a succession of kings, although Tibet sort of maintained this loose sovereignty over the region. But all this came to an end following the capture of Zadak by the Dogra army led by Zogwar Singh in 1834. And the Dogra ruled over Ladakh until the independence of India. So Ladakh went through very recent political development not covered in the book because they took place after its publication development by which Ladakh became a union territory, but before that, in terms of political administration. Soon after the independence of India, Ladakh started to be governed by Jammu and Kashmir State, a Muslim majority state of North India. Ladakh comprises these two districts, Leh and Kargil, both having respectively a Buddhist and a Muslim majority. So my research was based in the district of Leh, roughly according to the census of 2011, the population of this district is about like 130,000 inhabitants. And Buddhists are making for 66% of the population, Muslim 14%. And the rest of the population comprises Hindu and people of other confession. So the research on which this book is based was conducted in Sham, which is to the west of Leh, the sort of capital of Ladakh towards Pakistan. In this area, Buddhism dominates. In fact, to my knowledge at the moment there is no Muslim family in this part of Ladakh, especially where I did my fieldwork, that is besides from Nimu to Katsi, because my territory was limited by my research visa. So this is where I did my research. So I hope this gives an idea of some of aspects of the landscape of Ladakh. But. Well, what is important to highlight here is that the partition of India had implication for the elements of the local cultural identity and also for the transformation of Ladakh into a borderland. India gained its independence in 1947, but independence was also marked by the partition of former colonial British dominion into two sovereign states of India in Pakistan. So the division took place along religious line. So the Muslim majority territories were incorporated into Pakistan, while the region comprising a Hindu majority were integrated to independent India. This was of course, not to the satisfaction of everybody. And the current situation in Kashmir today is certainly a reminder that the partition remains very problematic even today for various reasons. But in terms of territory, one of the consequences of this is that from then onward, Ladakh had international borders, contested border not only with Pakistan, but also to the east with China. And both these borders remain highly contested. So with the partition, Ladakh became a borderland. And because these borders are extremely sensitive, Ladakh also became increasingly militarized with the decades that followed the partition and the successive war with Pakistan in the Sino Indian war.
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C
Okay, great. Next. Just helping frame the book some more. Can you tell us a little bit more about your methodology? In particular, I'd love to have you introduce your research assistant, Namgyo, who you mentioned briefly before he becomes an important figure throughout the book because his status as both an insider and an outsider to Ladakhi culture helps facilitate your research. Sure.
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B
So Nanya was my research assistant when I conducted the bulk of my fieldwork. And as I explained in the book, he contributed in fundamental ways to this project. And I believe this has much to do with the person is due to his unique life trajectory. So this description as an insider outsider that you're bringing is a very odd one, I feel. So for one, Namyal spent a great deal of his life outside the region. So at a really young age, due to particular circumstances, he was sent to a monastery in South India. And this was during the 1980s. So at that time, communication with his family and that remained a challenge. And then after a number of years spent in the monastery, along with a small group of Ladakhi, he was adopted by an Indian couple who were teachers in an alternative school system in India. And so they became the guardian of these children. During those years, the whole group traveled a lot around India as a consequence of the guardians employment. So this particular school system was really progressive. And through this, Namyal was in contact with students from all over India from a diversity of background. But generally these were children from very wealthy family. And this is something that he was aware of. He always knew that there was a significant difference between his own social and cultural background and the one of his friends in school, I guess we can say that he was always in this sort of liminal position. So in some ways he really had this sort of cosmopolitan education that shaped some aspect of his understanding of his place in India as someone coming from the mountains. And this has much resonance in India. If you're coming from the mountains area, you're categorized in some way in the broader context of India. So the contact with Ladakh was for him maintained over the years through punctual visits. But Namgyal was spending most of his time outside the region. But this particular trajectory also meant that, that, that he was constantly experiencing rounds of like bonding and separation and. And it is clear that life was not always easy in all of that. There were some very strict and rigorous aspect that came with being in this family. So eventually Nanyal returned to Ladakh around the age of 20 and from then on he reconnected with the place. He did not end up completing his studies, so finding steady employment was a challenge for him. Slowly he started to hold different jobs in the tourist industry. And this is what he was doing when we started work together. I think that the many years he spent outside the region were such that he developed a very perceptive curiosity for the details of the local history. And he also had this very objective, sorry, very objectivity towards the many dimensions of Ladakhi life. And I must say working with him was a real pleasure because we could sit and have many conversations through which we would think through some of the questions that were arising during fieldwork together. I mean, I guess sometimes when you are in the field you feel isolated. You can feel overwhelmed with all of what you have to learn to understand, to cover. I tend to think of the various challenges of the field as little pieces of puzzle and then you have to put the pieces together and assemble this in a coherent form. And the nice thing is that Nanya was, was thinking through these things on his own sometimes. So we would meet on one day and he would say, I think about, like I thought about this and that and then maybe we could do this and that. And he would come also with his own interpretation of things and we would exchange on this. So the other thing is, I explain in the book is that Namya's life trajectory has certainly endowed him with a profound humanism that translates into this very exceptional ability to connect with vulnerable people. And there is, I believe, a dimension of vulnerability when you are working with elderly men and women, especially in a context where people feel isolated and people were expressing this sense of isolation very clearly. And Naniel was very attentive. He was like a very passionate listener. So I think this created the whole particular context for exchange. So during fieldwork, I quickly realized that Nanyal's presence was really playing a significant role in the sort of openness that elders had towards these issues. So I believe that this has much to do as well. With the rapid social changes taking place in the DAC in the recent decades, so many elders are worried about what Ladakhi society will become. Younger generations, in their view, are more interested in the life of the city rather than the village life. So as a result, many of these elders, women were enthusiastic about seeing a young Ladakhi interested in their perspective on local history, on the changes taking place in the Daks. So overall, I believe that Nanyal, not only because he was a local figure, but also because of his, one can say, disposition, was instrumental in making elders feel comfortable and even enthusiastic about discussing subjects that were sometimes highly emotional. So I don't remember that I had the intention in the beginning of my field work to work with someone throughout my entire state. In any case, field worry is something which is taking shape along the way. I don't believe you can come with a very strict plan which is not flexible, but we ended up working together for the whole duration of this research project precisely because of his skills. So I worked with other research assistants in the past, and I could clearly feel that there was something very unique, very special going on here between Nangel and the elders we worked with.
- [34:03]
A
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- [35:06]
C
A key part of your method involves talking to elderly Ladakhis. As you just mentioned. Why was it that you were interested in talking to these elderly folks in villages? What did they know and what did you want to find out from them?
- [35:20]
B
Yes, so my initial goal was to examine how people are understanding environmental changes in Ladakh and also to identify what were these changes, what are like the things that are changing. I had no idea this would bring me into questions related to state production to the extent it did. But we'll get back to this later, I believe. But anyhow, because I was interested in the understanding of changes that took place over decades and decades, the idea of focusing on the perspective of elders made sense here simply because of the cumulative years of observation. So when I decided to return to school for and started my grad studies, I did first an MA in anthropology and I conducted a project in the Thar Desert in India on desertification. I knew I wanted to do this project in the Himalayas even at that time. But a master is a shorter things, right? So it's more brief than a PhD. So I I had a good opportunity through some context to do a similar a study on similar issues related to human environment interaction in other place in another place of India. So this project entailed discussing with people about changes in the environment. And I could clearly see that elders observations were always a bit more rich precisely because the information they had was based on the accumulation of more years of observation. So I sort of imported this research method to my project in the dac. But I should perhaps mention here that I also had for the project a great number of conversations with people of younger generation that were crucial in some ways in shaping my understanding of the many issues discussed in the book. But also in some ways these conversations help me as well to understand the perspective of elders and all of that.
- [37:24]
C
Okay, great. The book describes traditional Ladakhi ways of life and relating to the land and also how these ways of life have been changing in modern times. How did Ladakhis traditionally make a life in what you call, I think, very poetically, a parched place perched in the mountains?
- [37:42]
B
Yes. So. Well, I guess how life is sustained in the high altitudes of the Himalaya, where the climate can be harsh, where winters can be cold and long, where the land can be arid, has for long been A question of interest to anthropologists. So Ilodak, this was possible because of a diversified economy, the articulation of which was closely linked to polyandry. This marriage pattern by which a woman will be married to more than one person at the time. And polyandry is also another thing that has long fascinated anthropologists. So in the case of Ladakh, we're talking about fraternal polyandry, so that a woman is married to two or more men who are brothers. Polyandry was banned in India in 1941, but it was not abandoned systematically and continued to prevail for some time. So you can see a few people of my generation, I'm in my early 40s in Sham today, who grew up in this type of family arrangement. And of course, some of the elders I came to know through this project were in polyandrous union. And it was not the majority, but some of them, but also like Ehlers made, made it clear, and this is their words, that that before everybody was living like that. So the traditional Ladakhi household structure and the organization of work in Sham were such that the household used to be similar to, one can think of a cooperative unit. So within the household, one brother would normally be in charge of supervising the work of the land, while another would be in charge of pastoralist activities. And before the closing of the border with Tibet and Pakistan, many families of Sham also had one member who would ply trade routes for a significant part of the year. This is so because that was once a feeder of the Great Silk Road, and people would also do local trade in various parts of Ladakh. And this has been well documented by historian Janet Rizvi. So this diversity of occupation was a way for villagers to draw what benefit they could from the region, where arid conditions always limited the possibility for agrarian development. And has Ladaki are saying it, polyandry prevented the partition of the land so that that a family's estate would normally be enough to support a family. Ladakhi often described polyandry as a system of cooperation. And polyandrous marriage indeed are a bit like I suggested, these small cooperative enterprises. Now, one may argue that you don't necessarily need polyandry to have like these various economic activities in a region. But my point here is that elders, both men and women, often describe polyandry as pleasant precisely because work was shared. Of course, this doesn't mean that polyandrous union were free from tension, but in terms of work, people felt more supported. And this contrasts with today, as many elders feel that in the household People are left with so many things to do, but that there is a crucial lack of working hands.
- [41:18]
C
Interesting. And how have these arrangements of agricultural, pastoral, trade, marriage situations, how have these changed in modern times?
- [41:31]
B
Yes, so this changed significantly, and I should say rapidly after the independence of India. So, for one, the production of the state in Ladakh after the independence of India has been oriented towards the reconfiguration of the region into a border area, a process which was accelerated and also consolidated during the Sino Indian war of 61, 62 and subsequent wars with Pakistan, that is, in 65, 71 and 1999. And the militarization of Ladai has been achieved through the active involvement of the local population through different occupations related to the army. Also, we need to take into consideration that Ladakh is a region that had remained largely outside the scope of the bureaucratic state during the colonial era. So the onset of state formation in the region also meant the expansion of the bureaucratic apparatus. So overall, state formation generated employment and access to employment beyond the traditional agropastoralist activities. And generally those are occupations that are bringing people outside the villages. So with the prospect of employment came the possibility for individual aspiration. I talked about polyandry, but this system also meant that traditionally in Ladakh, men's life paths were closely defined by sibling position, while a woman would, as a general rule, become a wife, very often within a polyandrous union, and look after things that are related to the household and do work related to farming as well, and work with the animals, sometimes around the house. So land, estate and household were passed in their entirety from one generation to the next. So usually the son inherited the family estate by right of primordinature, with the options open to his. So with this, the options open to his brother were rather limited. So one option, and this was often reserved to the youngest son, was to join a monastery. As for the other, they would often join like their brother in this polyandrous union. And if things were not working well in the household, because these things were happening, in some case, men would move toward what is today in Machal Pradesh to take up farm employment or labor employment on roads or other things. So another option was to become a mapa, which means a merryman. But here the emphasis is on the fact that men take up postmarital residence in the household of his wife. So this type of arrangement generally occurs in family with only one female. Only female descendants would need a male to ensure the continuity of the household lineage. So the remaining option, and that most commonly adopt, was Obviously to go with the eldest brother in the polyandrous union. My point here is that this didn't allow so much room for individual aspiration. So when Ladakhi elders are explaining the reason for polyandry, they stress that it was never sheer, it was sheer poverty that compelled people to live in polyandry's union. So for this reason, the ban of 1941 on polyandry is rarely cited as a source of changing practice, but rather access to employment opportunity. With the economic restructuring of Ladakh after the independence of India. So over time, with better employment opportunity, people started to live in nuclear family. Of course, you still have joint family with grandparents, parents and their children. But what is different is that this family or household as a cooperative is no longer what it was. So overall, after the independence of India, with the production of the Indian state in the region, some demographic changes related to employment took place, and they have significantly reconfigured village life with profound social ramifications. So the possibility of paid labor contributed to decenter the agropastorialist economy. So agrarian and pastoralist activities are still prevailing in sham, but they're no longer the sole economic activity and they're no longer dominant to the extent that they were to do this agro pastoralist work is increasingly challenging for the people who are staying in the villages, because precisely there are less people within household units to do the work. So if a household subsistence is oriented towards a diversity of occupation that all require to be at different places at the same time, then you need a lot of people around to do this work. Yeah.
- [46:38]
C
The book chronicles all these different ways that more what we might call traditional ways of life are changing in the modern economy. And you also note throughout how your informants tie these changes in economic and social ways of life to changes in the moral order. Could you tell us a bit more about that?
- [47:01]
B
Sure. Yes. So what I define as moral order in the book stands for actions and value that pertain to what in the social and cultural context of Ladakh, has traditionally had to do with the care of the land, care for the animal, for the deities as well, and also for the family and community, responsibility. And in many ways all these are interrelated. So if you don't care about one aspect of these, it has implications for another sphere. So for many in Ladakh, especially those of the older generation, to be a good person means to fulfill one's responsibility related to that. So taking care of the land and of animal is a bit of a moral duty, not only towards your family, as you have to contribute to the family's farm, but also towards the animal themselves and the land itself. This is well reflected in the very common trope of abandonment that people are using. For instance, when talking about their fellow villagers who stop cultivating some of their land, they say they are abandoning their land. And the same idea of abandonment is mentioned when people are selling their animal. So whatever the hardship, people should never abandon their land and their animal, in many people's view. So to be a moral person in a place like Ladakh, at least from the perspective of these elders, is to strive towards the well being of all these elements. To accomplish or observe one's duty and obligation towards the land, the animal, the deities, and the deities would need to be acknowledged as well through punctual ritual. So when Ladakhi talk about the reason for the changes in the environment, they frequently explain them as the result of people failing to fulfill these responsibilities, of people being careless. So what constitutes a moral order here is a very. It's a repertory of concrete actions in the world that can be blowing the land, hurting the animal. Also, you can have all of these activities oriented towards divine beings through ritual, but it also consists of the cultivation of good relationship with villagers and caring for family members so people know their fortune is closely linked to their moral behavior. But of course, if the economy is changing, if people start to adopt employment in spheres that are not connected to the agropastorialist economy, then fulfilling one's responsibility will become a challenge. As long as these responsibilities are closely defined by and linked to agropastoralist life. So you won't be there to help with farm work if you're working outside. You won't be there to bring the animals to the pasture. You won't be there to support your family in this work, you won't be there to participate in the ritual, and you won't be able to contribute to the organization of ritual. Sometimes this can be due to a lack of interest. Okay, sometimes elders are suggesting this, but sometimes this is because assuming those responsibilities become technically impossible due to implication in other forms of employment that are bringing people outside the village life. But for those who are striving to keep the land, keep the animal intact and all of this estate in the way it was. For those who are trying to maintain this way of life through thick and thin, this form of disengagement is clearly seen as a sign of decaying morality. And this is partly because the diversification of the economy of the household put a number of farmers and herders in A difficult ethical position themselves. If nobody is there to graze the animal, they will have to be sold. And this often means that the animal will end up with the meat trader. If there is nobody to work the land, then the land cannot be cultivated and then the land will be, as people are putting it, abandoned.
- [51:19]
C
Yeah. The book is filled with anecdotes of these sort of competing systems. People would like to be there with their families to care for animals or do the agricultural thing, but their jobs take them to lay or to the military. And so you see these tensions emerging. But now I thought we could turn to some of the chapters just to give listeners an overview of what they can expect when they, after listening to this, buy and read the book. So chapter one, the Loneliness of Winter, explores the harsh winters of Ladakh, which you talked about earlier. In it, you speak to people who remember the distant past, pre1948, as both harsher but happier. So what do you mean by that?
- [52:08]
B
Yes. So yes, as I mentioned before, Ladakh was independent. The economy was largely based on subsistence agriculture. Livestock rearing, barter was also a crucial element of the local economy and it provided the household with necessary supplies. And for the very context of Sham, where I did my research, the trade of local wool for various commodity from Kangar, Suru, Baltistan, as well as Chantang and Guyanse in Tibet was fundamental to the household economy. So this was for the economy. But under the Dogwa rule, which ended with the independence of India, Ladakhi were taxed unscrupulously. So people were burdened by perpetual cycle of debts. And this is a recurring narrative among the elders of Ladakh who once lived under this rule. And this is very well documented in the literature by scholars of Ladakh. Also, people had to do forced labor. They call this beggar work. So this included working as porters, herders and laborers for the state, but also sometimes the monastic estate and for official and non official travelers. This system already existed under the rule of the Ladakhi kings, but it became a systematized feature of life under the Dogra rule. So beggar obligation and the collection of taxes were supervised by local officials. But the local officials often took advantage of the system to enrich themselves at the expense of the peasant. So intimidation, mistreatment and violence perpetrated by official was really widespread. Beggar obligation left lasting mark on Ladakhi's memory. This is very tangible. So many elders remember with great incredulity, like how when the British were traveling in the region, Ladakhi had to carry them in the palanquin. And they were really, like, cynical about the fact that they often had to carry the dogs as well. And. And if they were not doing the work properly, then they would be beaten with sticks. So it was really like a brutal imposition of forced labor. The other thing that Ladakhi elders often allude to is the extent to which hunger prevailed, especially in summers before the crop were ready. So basically the house were running empty of food supplies. So poverty is something that elders are emphasizing a lot when describing life before the independence of India. And they are sometimes emphasizing the hardship of life in a place like Ladakh, where the climate is harsh, the winter is cold, and so on. So on top of all of the hardship, with the abuse of the authority, they are aware that this is a difficult place in terms of environment. And elder often contrasts this with the life of today, where people live with, and I'm quoting then, the great gifts of. Of the government. And this is really their word. These gifts are things that make life easier. The roads, the ration system which provides wheat and other edibles. So these gifts are also the jobs for the government. From the perspective of elders, this often seems like easy money for little effort as compared to plying the trade roads, as compared to having all of. To do all of these, the beggar work. Of course, this is their own perspective. And yet, in the words of elders, today is the time of plenty in terms of material, but of little in terms of feeling surrounded, in terms of community harmony, in terms of having time for the family, for the festivities and all of the lively aspects of village life. And this is what makes elders say that even if it was harder before, things were happier. And such perspective needs to be considered in light of the fact that the traditional Ladakhi household used to provide social protection for aging family members as well. So as they were becoming economically unproductive when they were aging, so. But this security net is today rendered increasingly fragile by an economy that drives people outside the villages for an extended period of time. So traditionally also, elders continue to play a vital role in the life of the household by, for instance, transmitting knowledge and taking care of youngest family member. But these roles provide elders with a sense of purpose. And. But this is more and more complicated today because the household is no longer or not in the same form, this place of generational continuity. So the sense of hardship today is certainly one associated with emotions less than material.
- [57:25]
C
Yeah, that sense of having more material wealth in certain ways, but of feeling disconnected or that the sort of social Cohesion is more fragmented, comes through really strongly. So then in the next chapter, Artalis and Beyond looks at the India Pakistan war of 1948, how it affected Ladakhis and how those effects continue to reverberate. You describe the war as a source of ethical dilemmas, so I was hoping you could tell us a bit more about that.
- [58:00]
B
Yes, good question. I'll try to be brief, but that's difficult. Well, I'm talking a lot. I must say, the question of the war surprised me in the sense that I was not expecting that this would be such a strong component of my research project. My research goal in this study was to analyze perceptions of environmental change very broadly defined over time. And for this reason I targeted, as I mentioned, Ladakhi among my interlocutors. But very early in my field work, I realized that the experience of the war was a looming presence in our conversation. So, as I explained in the book, I often started discussions asking about environmental changes, the ones that like asking my interlocutors what are the environmental changes that they observe during their lifetime. I must say, people's answers were generally lengthy, very generous and full of details. But I was surprised that the first war with Pakistan was one recurring trope in people's reflection. In Sham, it could be something as direct as one day the Pakistani came and this would eventually lead to the question of receding glacier. For others, the events of the war did not emerge until later in the conversation, but often following observation about depleting water sources or loss of vegetation in the mountains. But it very often emerged. It soon became clear that for many the war and environmental changes were like linked. I'll get back to this, but I must say, at the beginning I did not know really what to do with the communist references to the war. I knew about the war, I knew about the local history. But what I had no idea was how it was lived by the people in Sham, so that it could so significantly emerge in accounts about environmental change. So I tried to understand more about the war and how it impacted people in their everyday life and what sort of experiences they went through. So to go back in time a bit, when India became an independent nation, Jammu and Kashmir was a princely state formed by a conglomeration of kingdom, among them Ladakh. After the independence of India and following the partition, the marriage of Jam Win Kashmir eventually pledged allegiance to India. This is not something that took place immediately with the independence, but soon after. And this is of course a controversial episode in the history of South Asia. A few months after this, in the winter of 1948, Pathan's and Gilgit scouts attacked Kardu in a surprise invasion of Jammu and Kashmir that eventually led to a war between India and Pakistan. Of course, all these political development were largely unknown to Ladakhi villagers. But at some point the news started to spread throughout Sham that Patanza and Gilgitzka were roaming the highland and they were just looting everything in their path. What was happening is that these men were marching towards Leh with the intention to take control of the Ladakhi capital. The defense of Lay lasted almost a year, from February to December 1948. But the main threat, the threat to Lay lasted from July to October 1948. And this eventually ended with a unit mandated ceasefire on January 1, 1941. But during this main threat to Lay, the raiders, and I'm using here this term to simplify because this is complex and as I explained in the book, there are like different terminologies that people are using to refer to that particular group. But they were positioned in a number of villages in Sham and elders who lived in the occupied villages refer to this period as when we were under Pakistan. This was a period during which the population of Shand lived in fear. They were under the constant threat to their land, their home, their identity. The raiders supplied themselves with booty stolen from the villagers. Many captive Ladakhi men were forced to work for the raiders and regain their freedom only when the conflict ended. But also men were conscripted, so they had to fight for the Indian army. So Elder often characterized the war as something dirty, as something very bad that took place. What happened in Sham during the partition and the war was never as massive in scale as what happened in other parts of India, but it was traumatic for many Ladakhi. So we're talking about murder, about rape, about the killing of animal and the killing of animal, which was really a thing that people were talking a lot about in their narrative about the war and very other forms of abuse that left Shamas with very painful memories. So for this generation of Shamas, the violence of the war meant having been thrown overnight in a context that was for me, rough with different ethical dilemmas. Why so? Well, the local population was very active and played a crucial role in determining the outcome of the conflict in Sham. So for the Indian army, this was an unknown territory. The archives even report men having to rush to the libraries to have maps in order to understand the place where they were going. So the Indian army, the Indian army's defensive task in Ladakh was very challenging and Its success depended on the mobilization of the local population. So many Shamas provided support for the Indian troops by taking up arms on their own. But also like because of the conscription. So also many residents of Sham provided support to the Indian army without joining the rank. So Ladaki, they had like, their, their own knowledge of the territory, their sense of the mountains, their familiarity with the path that are crisscrossing the region. Because you can look at these various paths sometimes, but you don't know where they will lead you. All of this was very, very, very invaluable in, in defeating the raiders. Many of those who fled to the mountains to escape the raiders volunteered to guide Indian troops in the mountains. Other, they sort of lured Indian forces into various ambushes. Other acted as spies. Other, like villagers attempted to deceive the invaders by making fake tracks in the mountains to create like the impression that there are large Indian army contingent moving in the region. So they also provided fundamental logistical support. But the decision to join the militia itself, it was called a militia at that time, was not instinctive for many. Many Buddhist Tadaki were initially uncomfortable participating directly in acts of violence. Something that of course, according to their worldview, can only bring retribution. So none of my interlocutors reported cases of zadaki fighting against the Indian army. But many confided that they left the work of the army as soon as they could because it was too much mental strain to do this. But that being said, many were forced to fight alongside the Indian army because of the system of conscription that was put in place. So this was not their decision. They were forced in that. So in some villages, each household was asked to provide one man to support the Indian troops. But this situation did not please everybody. So clearly not all Ladakhi wholeheartedly embraced the work in the army. And there were also incidents of coercion, of physical punishment for those who resisted joining the army or those who were so not really up to the task when they were in the rank. So overall, the testimonies I collected make it clear that many Ladakhi were ambivalent about whether or how they should take part in the conflict. Some were pressured by their family members and fellow villagers. Other saw a pressing need to actively participate and resist the raider. So on the one hand, we can say that there were several alternative open to the Shema at the time. You can think that they could remain ethically neutral, not doing anything. They could have created this alliance with India as they did, or they could have even befriended the invaders. Because in fact, many of my Interlocutor confided that over the several months of this sort of occupation that they are referring to, the prospect of India's victory seemed very, very bleak. But on the other hand, between remaining neutral and actively participating in the conflict, there's no easy option. There was no easy option for the Shama. So there was this feeling of responsibility, of having to do something. But people were also torn between the need to protect their land, moral prohibition, because if you're at war, you. You may end up killing people, or if you don't, directly, after all, you're contributing to a violent project. Right? And as many made clear, the fear of dying also was so that the call to take arms was really agonizing. So, in sum, the choice to fight alongside the Indian army, to defend the land, meant engaging in the moral wrong of the war. But if you remain neutral, well, you can avoid bad karma, but you will risk losing your land. But what does all this have to do with environmental changes like Receding Glacier? Well, as you're saying, the war continues to reverberate, and for some, this takes the form of retribution. I must say, Ladakhi elders are accurately aware of the many political, economic and social changes that have affected Ladakh in recent decades, and they tend to frame them within a rich historical context. So this appreciation for the genealogy of change is never separated from Buddhist ideas about causality, which hold that the seeds of current and future event may have been sown like in the past, whether recent or distant. But many elders see the current depletions of the environment as the bad luck of Ladakhi, a form of retribution for all of the collective moral wrongs of the war. They sometimes say this directly, with clear references, but sometimes this directly, as when changes in the environment are articulated by referring to the war. And all this continues to live with people because the war marked the onset of a new era, one in which Sadaki is reconfigured as a border area with all of the implication and ramification it has. So I speak of a crack in the landscape. To refer to this discontinuity in terms of experience of Ladakh as a place between before and after the war.
- [69:43]
C
Yeah, it's a fascinating account. And this notion of the war is causing an ethical dilemma is really fascinating. Now, I'm conscious of the time, so I'm going to skip ahead to chapter four. You've also very kindly agreed to do the interview while recovering from a cold, so feel free at any point if you need to grab a drink of water. So chapter three, considers Ladakh as a borderland and how Ladakhis became central sentinel citizens. And then chapter four goes on to describe traditional Ladakhi agriculture as a communal endeavor between families. The land, earth spirits, glaciers, all of which are linked together in patterns of interdependence. It looks at how this has changed now that lots of people have jobs that take them away from agriculture and the land. And now that climate change has made glaciers shrink and the weather less reliable. One key episode in this chapter is it occurs when the rains haven't come and it threatens the local agriculture. So people are thinking about doing a ritual to get water, but ultimately they don't perform it. So could you tell us a little bit about this ritual and the various processes affecting whether or not it was performed?
- [71:02]
B
Yes. So this is, yeah, complex. So in Tengmuzgang village, people believe that the main glacier of the village is guarded by a jidak. A jidak is a local God. Belief and interpretation about local gods very intimate in Buddhist area. And the jidak is defined in different ways in the literature, but from foundational lord to country gods to master of the place or owner of the land, the gdaks are ruling over an area. And they are sometimes associated with rivers, lake and ridges. And in the case of Thichmosgang, the gdak is associated with a glacier. People are describing this gdak as the protector of the glacier. So according to the villagers of Thygmosgang, this jidak is stubborn and he refuses to let villagers carry out their farming activities unless they pay the necessary tribute. So what the villagers have to do here is a ritual called Skinju. Now, what is skinju? Well, skinju as a ritual appealing to the jidak of Thigmuzgam mimics a ritual of the same name performed during Ladakhi wedding ceremonies. So this is something through which a bride expresses her lament at leaving her family. And so we are in the context of patrilocal postmarital residence. As a general rule in the dye. So skinju is performed during all of the elaborate leave taking ceremony when a bride departs from her home. So as she leaves with the groom's party, so as her departure becomes imminent, the bride cries. So this whole thing takes a lot of time. But after a series of ritual, the bride performs the last part of the ceremony, during which she recites stop phrases and cries loudly. The verse of Skinju are partly improvised by each performer. I mean, this is the way it was done traditionally. Nowadays there is not so much of the lyrical component, but usually a bride performing the ritual sings about her family member, the pain that she have at leaving her family. And it says that the daughter, she's crying out of sadness for leaving her close one. But at this point her kids are also trying to implement explore the family in law to take good care of her. So in Tegmusgang, Skinju for the glacier is performed on the top of a mountain, from where you can see the glacier. And it echoes the tropes of the skinju for the marriage. So basically, the ritual requires the participation of monks, musicians, children and lay people, all of whom would traditionally, when this was done, climb the steep mountain at the upper part of the village. And then at some point, the entrance worshipper are like appealing the Judaic. So in this, the community takes on the role of the bride, leaving her natal home and respectfully salutes her father and mother. And there is also the notion of affiliation which is at play here, because in their appeal to the Gdak, the glacier is referred to as a father for the villagers, and a lake is also referred to and here as a mother. So the ritual actually was never performed. And there are different reasons for that. So first, to perform this type of ritual, you need an expert, a monk who know how to do the ritual in its various components. But in the dark, as in other parts of the Himalaya High Lama has been for many years been pushing for this agenda of very orthodox Buddhism and often suggests that some rituals are simply a radical and then that they should be abandoned. So what monks are learning today is of course, this more orthodox form of Buddhism oriented towards the text and not the ritual that may not be associated with these non orthodox tradition, but that people villagers were traditionally performing. Another thing is that to perform a ritual that entails the gathering of people, you need interested people around and these, these people need to have a bit of free time. Elders really emphasize how challenging it is to climb the steep mountains and that this is something that only young and fit people can do. So the problem here is that many youth are busy on other projects, for instance, working in the city. And this brings in the question of temporality. So agrarian activities in Sham are currently taking place in some ways under two temporality. One, by which agrarian activities are taking place at the rhythm of the deities. You must follow the date set by the local astrologer. Before clothing the land. You must propitiate the deities to have a good crop. But there is also another temporality, which is the one of the capitalist economy, if you will, with people working outside the villages, coming back to Support family member and farming, but having no time to stay for a ritual like skinju or other. So often what happened is that people are coming for a few days to help the women, the elders and their relatives, and they will soon have to go back to their own business in the city, or at least elsewhere. So all of this is such that organizing something my skin do become quite a complex project. And this explains why the ritual simply never took place.
- [76:56]
C
Yeah, it's a fascinating story and just seeing all the dynamics at work. Next, chapter five moves on to pastoral herding and thinks about how pastoral practices produce a certain kind of landscape. What do you mean by this?
- [77:14]
B
Yes, so scholars have written about how landscape have long been defined as this sort of static objects of human observation as being simply out there. But landscape are a bit more complex than this, some have argued. So I build on the idea here that landscape are rather produced. So the idea is that landscape is not a landscape is not just a backdrop to human activity, but is rather produced through activities and here of human interaction with domesticated animal through herding works. So I call this landscape the pastoralis landscape, because domesticated animals are so central to the production of this landscape. The idea is to recognize that animal may be fundamental to the production of landscape. If one embraces the idea that a landscape can be this sort of collective entity that emerges from a network of practices that sustain pastoralis work. So. So that a landscape is not just something out there. So as herder are engaging with the mountains for hours through herding work, they are developing skills at navigating the mountains, and they are developing knowledge about the mountains through obstacles, observation. But it's not only about skills and abilities. There are also more intimate forms of knowledge that emerge from practical work. In the mountain, for example, there is a kind of rhythm and sociality that characterizes herding work. Herders are living a very particular environment, a very specific rhythm with days starting even before dusk. Herders are sharing food, helping each other. Herders are sort of in this liminal space, as many are saying as well, it feels good to be away from the village life a bit. So there is certainly this sense of liberty that comes with herding work. And this may seem like a stereotype, but this is how people are talking about this. Of course, people are also saying that this is hard work, that you have to walk a lot. But this is not what is foregrounded when people are talking about work in the high pasture. So overall, the landscape produced through herding or is far from being just static. It's about feelings and emotion, about a sense of place, about movement skills, knowledge and observation. And these elements are never detached from people. So as landscapes are constituted through work in the mountain, so are herders themselves becoming as herder in this landscape. And it's this overall network of relationship and this sense of place and all the related form of knowledge that are the best landscape.
- [80:06]
C
Yeah. My own work deals with pilgrimage literature. And reading your work about these kind of embodied relationships with the landscape and landscapes as being produced rather than just sort of being the backdrop. I'm already incorporating it into my work.
- [80:23]
B
Interesting.
- [80:26]
C
But you also describe herding as producing relationships of care and reciprocity between humans and animals in particular. Could you tell us a little bit more about this?
- [80:36]
B
Sure. So the very specificities of the high pasture, the knowledge and emotion that can emerge from this place, all this creates a very specific sense of place. And this nurtures attachment to a place, but also to what contributes to make this place. So the effective feeling that emerge from engagement with the mountains are not only for a place, but also for the domesticated animal. And I'm now thinking about what you just said about, like, this pilgrimage. I can see how like, this same form of attachment are fostered, like in these very sort of effective context of pilgrimage. But, sorry, my mind was thinking about this at the same time. And I guess my experience at an earlier stage of life with being a bit in the world of herder, at least maybe not physically, but certainly poetically, by navigating this world through some songs and narrative with My Friends in Tibet, is one genealogy of the reflections in this chapter. But because of these forms of attachment, work in the mountain cannot be seen strictly as a matter of physically engaging the material world. So engagement with the mountains does not only enable knowing a place and navigating the pasture, it also fosters attachment to domesticated animal. So, as a herder insists pastoralis, work is more than just like an economic activity. So at the heart of herding are relations of care and reciprocity between animals and human. Animals have for generation sustained human life in the duck, therefore human must sustain animal life in turn. This is often repeated by herder. So care is strongly anchored here in a principle of reciprocity. And the way that herders talk about animals is very evocative of this attachment. So this notion that herders have a certain duty towards the animal is pretty clear in the dilemmas they are facing as they are getting older and lacking the stamina to go in the mountains. So if there is nobody to replace them, Then the only option is to sell, is to sell the animals. And in sham, as I said, like it, it very often means the slaughterhouse. And people know this and they are well aware of this, even if those who are buying the animals maintain that they will not kill the animals. So as much as work with animal in the mountain contributes to the development of this ethics of care for animals, how people care for animals becomes central to this notion again of moral order. So the contemporary economic structures of Ladakh contribute to the disassembling in some ways of this pastoralist landscape. So in reducing patterns of mobility in the mountains, the restructured local economy has implication for the way the landscape is known and for meaningful engagement with animals. So affection animals may develop through interaction. These interactions can be favorable, like when a herder is amazed by one of his the intelligence of his animal, when a woman explained that she's like a mother to her cow. But conversely, people can develop antipathy towards their presence. So some villagers are today annoyed by the presence of goats, for instance, in the village, because they can damage tree plantation. This is the type of tension emerging with the decline of pastoralism. Community arrangement that allow for the grazing of animal at some point, at a specific point in time in the year are meeting new economies like tree plantation and animals can be seen as unreasons. But seeing animals as a nuisance is just an example. Generally, others are of the view that if people would be spending more time with animals, they would appreciate them better. So overall, this points of the fact that the relations that constitute the pastoral landscape are neither static nor isolated, but they are shaped by changing cultural practices and redefined economy.
- [84:54]
C
Yeah, this notion that to be a good person, to be a good human, often necessitates standing in relationship with an animal or many animals is really interesting. That sort of interconnection, a reciprocity. But then, so, Moving on, Chapter 6 explores the relationships between people and glaciers, as well as how certain ways of life foster embodied knowledge and an ethic of care. Your informants see a connection between glaciers and morality. So how do they connect those two things?
- [85:30]
B
Yes, so in the Buddhist Himalayas, I'm referring to belief more than a geography, because there are different belief system in the Himalayas, but people generally see a connection between their fortune and their relationship with glaciers. And this is documented in the literature coming from from Tibet and Nepal as well. So the idea here is not just that it is the misfortune of people to live with receding glacier because it complicates farming work, but rather that people have contributed to the recession of glacier because they acted in ways that do not correspond to a proper moral conduct. So a receding glacier is a form of. Of retribution, a form of collective karma. This is certainly a perspective held by many Ladakhi. So the way people are expressing this is not necessarily described as something mediated by deities, in the sense that if a glacier is not doing well, for instance, by receding, this is not necessarily because people have failed to pay respect to the deity. Rather, many of my interlocutors, for them, the state of glaciers is described as linked to people's moral behavior. But how do people become moral individual in their everyday life? The question is, how do you develop all these dispositions through which you tend to have a good moral conduct? Well, for many elders, participation in agrarian and pastoralist work certainly plays a crucial role in this. There is often the suggestion that this work has implication for the moral nature of a person. So it's not only that one becomes virtuous by maintaining agropasturalist activities and by engaging in this work, but it's also that one develops a certain kind of awareness for elements of the natural landscape, awareness for the animal, for the land as well. And at the same time, people develop a certain sense of self. So if we take the example of the glaciers, well, if you are in sham to be in contact with the main glacier of a village, well, you have to go in the mountains, because very often you will not see the glacier directly from the village, as it is the case with Thygmosgan. You have to climb another mountain to see the glacier. The most common way to engage with the high pasture is through herding words. So this is what brings people to the mountains. And it is through this work that people happen to be in contact with glacier. After all, when you're doing this herding work, you're climbing in the mountains, you're higher and higher, you're following the animals, and eventually you may see the glacier. But this is not only a matter of engaging with the mountains. So clearly, many elders see in the work of the land something which is crucial to develop a certain moral orientation. So I spoke about attachment to domesticated animal through pastoralism, but attachment to glaciers as elements of the landscape is another element that people develop through their work. And I describe in the book some of the reflection of herders. I'm conflating herders and herders, but sometimes it's very often like this about the glacier that they are seeing, how there is this sort of important sense of respect and how seeing a glacier and getting close to a glacier can be a very powerful experience. But the point is that if you stop this work, if you no longer see the glacier of your village, how do you develop attachment for the glacier if it sort of becomes this unknown figure that you don't see? Basically, this is what elders are asking when they feel that something is missing in people there. So the knowledge that elders are developing in the mountains is strongly embodied because it rests so much on the mobilization of the senses through observation, feelings, emotions, hearing the sounds of the glacier. This is something that people are often referring to. But this knowledge is also embodied because it lives inside you as it transforms you as a person, so it transforms people as moral, individual. Because through this work they develop a sense of care for the glacier in the same way as they develop a sense of care for domesticated animal through herding work. But caring practices cannot of course, be divorced from inward disposition, those inward dispositions that inform them. So, for example, often people complain that today people are farming just for the sake of farming, without putting their heart into it. This means that farming is no longer enmeshed in the value of care that used to inform farming. But to be potent, these moral virtues require coherence between this sort of attitude and action. So this is why elders are often linking this sort of development of moral selfhood, like in relation to work.
- [90:37]
C
Yeah. So then the next question is, you know, so as you said, a lot of these elders are saying, if you stop this work, how do you develop the proper, proper affective relationship with the land? How do you develop the proper ethical, moral subjectivity? Given that, as you've pointed out, in this modern situation, fewer and fewer people are doing the pastoral and agricultural work. Fewer young Ladakhis are seeing these glaciers. So my question then is, how are Ladakhi communities dealing with this? Or how do you think they'll deal with this movement moving forward?
- [91:13]
B
Yes, this is, I guess this is where all of the predicaments and the dilemmas are coming in the picture. So the predicament of herders has many aspects and is also profoundly moral. So in response to the pressure exerted on pastoralis work, people are increasing selling their domesticated animal. But this is especially upsetting to elders because they are emotionally and morally engaged with the animals because of their. It was like always a defining feature of life in the mountains. But this must also be considered in light of the fact that again, sailing, the animal meets the slaughterhouse. But for the elders, it's not only the animals that are being abandoned. There is the Abandonment of village life, the end of community, ritual and responsibility, the rise of individual with them, what they see as the alienation of youth from rurality, what they see as being this sort of disinterest in agrarian and pastoralist work. So people have to adapt to these changing values and aspiration. Selling animal is one thing. As for farming the land, one way to address the situation is something sometimes to leave some part of the land uncultivated. And again, this is seen as a form of abandonment. As the book describes, those are things that elders are living while being increasingly isolated. So they often feel quite vulnerable and also helpless. And this strongly colors their perception of a changing moral order. But I must add, sorry, one thing here. This account is of course reflective of its methodology so that those changes are seen from the perspective of elders. So of course when you do a research project in anthropology, you want to explore something from a group's perspective in other disciplines as well. Here the focus is on elders, but one also has to be careful not to be naive about this. So elders have their view, but there are things they are emphasizing more in their account of a changing place, both on their political processes and climate change. But when it comes to the changing economy and how people address the continuity of changing agrarian and pastoralist activities, related values are absorbing elders understanding of these changes and also historical events are contributing to this understanding. But we need to keep in mind that Ladakh went into this very rapid phase of social changes since the independence. And there are of course new values that are associated with new aspiration. One may not always agree with elders perception, especially members of the younger generation who are, as I explained in the book, struggling with their own issues and dilemma. So life is not necessarily as easy for the younger generation as it is sometimes depicted by elders. The book points at a number of cases where people of younger generation are indeed really torn by the fact that their life and their work don't allow them to be there for the elders and to contribute to agro pastoralist activities and other things. So this is the way that they are addressing this is sort of enmeshing all of these sort of systems of dilemmas. But also I guess it's always a challenge to try to please a generation when this generation's expectations are based on an understanding of the world and of value, when these expectations are in fact based on the world that's somehow no longer exists. At least not the way that people are imagining this work, this world. So things are so different in the DAC that than they were like a Few decades back, Elders know about all these changes, but they haven't entirely adjusted their expectations to this reality. And of course, as the book describes, they are facing their own dilemmas as well, their own predicament. So the point is not that Elder have all the wisdom to address these questions and all of the knowledge and that the crumbling values is the fault of the younger generation only. It's more about the implication of dramatic event and how they encounter a realm of value and how this shapes and understanding of the world. If we can put it in a nutshell like this. So I would say like the way that this is entirely addressed by people is by facing all of these predicament and dilemmas at the time. At the same time.
- [96:15]
C
Yeah. One could certainly imagine another whole book, another whole ethnography based on the youth perspective that might look somewhat different.
- [96:24]
B
Oh, that would be very, very. Yeah, we need a research like that.
- [96:30]
C
Yes. Any listeners out there, is there anything else that you'd like to cover about the book that I missed or may have skipped over that you want listeners to hear?
- [96:41]
B
Not that I can think of. I think I spoke too much already.
- [96:44]
C
Oh no, no. This is wonderful. Thank you so much. So one last question, since I've taken up so much of your time already. What are you working on next now that this book is out and published?
- [96:56]
B
Yes. So it's always a bit difficult to transition from one project to the other. Especially after writing a book, you feel a bit disoriented. But I started to work a few years ago in Zanska, which is part of this broad region of Ladakh. So Zanskar is this region which is very geographically isolated and politically marginalized. It's a place which has no airfield. It's connected to the rest of India by only one motorboat road, which remains closed six months each year when the snow accumulation prevents transport and even then when the road is open due to poor road upkeep and the challenging terrain. If you want to reach lee, then it's 450km, but it will take two full days. If someone wants to travel in and out of Zanskaar in winter, then you have to travel the Chadar, which is the frozen river that people Zanzkapa are frequently traveling for health, religious, economic and educational purposes. And this trip takes many days and is very challenging. In Zelfra today, people are really affected by water stress which is related to climate change. So this includes particularly glacier recession and decreased snowfall. So I have two projects there. The first examines how people in different villages are petitioning the state in the context of marginalization for the building of canal that would bring water to their field from the rivers that traverse the region. Building these canals is challenging because they are significantly. The rivers are significantly lower than fields. The second project which I'm currently developing is how climate knowledge develops through mobility in the region. Zaskar is a place where people have for long walk great distances on foot, especially because of the absence of the road network. Many of these traditional footpaths, if you will, entail walking on ice, whether on glacier, rivers or frozen surfaces in the mountains. But many of these footpaths have become increasingly challenging to navigate with climate change. And I'm interested in not only in the implications of these change, but also how navigating like walking in the mountain constitutes a form of climate knowledge. Because generally in the Himalaya, knowledge about ice, like glacier is produced by studying glacier from a distance through remote sensing and other technologies. But I believe that knowledge that develops through physical contacts with ice over the year is also very important for our understanding of climate change.
- [99:45]
C
Yes, that sounds fascinating. As I mentioned to you before the interview, I've spent some time in Sanskar, and so I look forward to reading these things.
- [99:57]
B
Yes, thank you.
- [99:59]
C
Yeah, so I'd like to just thank you again for joining us today. And I encourage all of our listeners to go out and get this book. All the chapters are really readable, so I'm personally looking forward to assigning it to undergrad students in my Buddhist ethics class. And it's, you know, it's really just a great read. So thank you again so much.
- [100:18]
B
Thank you so much for the invitation, and I'm very sorry for the husky voice. Sa.