Podcast Summary: Kenneth Roth on "Righting Wrongs: Three Decades on the Front Lines Battling Abusive Governments"
Podcast: New Books Network
Host: Nicolas Bequelin
Guest: Kenneth Roth
Episode Date: February 15, 2025
Book: Righting Wrongs: Three Decades on the Front Lines Battling Abusive Governments (Knopf, 2025)
Episode Overview
In this rich and candid conversation, Kenneth Roth, the former Executive Director of Human Rights Watch, discusses his memoir-cum-manual for effective human rights advocacy, Righting Wrongs. The episode explores the evolution of Human Rights Watch, strategies for holding abusive governments accountable, the mechanics of international justice, and the future of human rights work amid rising authoritarianism and public skepticism. Roth offers insider stories, practical advice, and unvarnished views on controversies within the human rights field.
Key Discussion Points and Insights
1. Defining Human Rights Watch and Its Evolution ([03:10–05:24])
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Human Rights Watch vs. Peers: Roth explains Human Rights Watch’s niche as a global, non-governmental organization focused on rigorous research and public advocacy, contrasting it with Amnesty International (larger, somewhat broader) and the ICRC (sacrifices public voice for access).
“Both Amnesty and Human Rights Watch are willing to sacrifice access in order to maintain our public voice.” – Kenneth Roth [04:50]
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Early Days: Roth reminisces about joining when the organization had just two staff, attributing his career path to luck and mentorship from Aryeh Neier.
“I wanted to do human rights work…but there were no jobs…so I resigned myself to working as a lawyer and then nights and weekends volunteering, doing human rights work, which is what I did for six years.” – Roth [05:53]
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Transformation Under Roth: He grew HRW from a $6.5M group to a $100M global institution, focusing on professionalizing research, advocacy, and building media offices in key capitals.
2. Changing Human Rights Landscape ([07:33–10:01])
- Media & Policymakers: Human rights advocacy evolved from novelty to essential actor in global politics. Initially, gaining attention was easier due to novelty; later, credibility and actionable policy recommendations became decisive.
“It’s not enough to report on a problem and then just tell the government to do the right thing. That gets you no place.” – Roth [09:16]
3. Strategies: Naming, Shaming, and Personalities ([10:01–14:43])
- Facts Over Rhetoric: HRW’s influence is grounded in “shaming with facts,” not simply moralizing or mass mobilization.
- Case Study – Syria (Idlib): Roth narrates an episode where HRW’s nuanced pressure on Putin (via Merkel, Macron, and Turkish officials) helped halt the Syrian bombardment of civilians, bypassing an unhelpful US government.
“Assad himself was really beyond shaming…But at that stage, Putin…did care about his reputation.” – Roth [13:00] “Beginning in March 2020, the bombing of civilian institutions stopped and it stayed stopped for three full years.” – Roth [14:13]
4. Opportunism and Leverage in Advocacy ([14:43–17:46])
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Selecting Battles: Roth insists on prioritizing grave abuses—not “opportunism” in issue selection, but in identifying leverage points to effect change.
“Once you know that you want to try to address a situation, then the question comes up, well, how do you do that? Where do we have leverage?” – Roth [16:13]
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Examples:
- Pushing Netherlands to lead UN action on Yemen when EU refused.
- Creative tactics: leveraging Argentina’s legal system to corner Saudi Crown Prince after Khashoggi’s killing.
5. Impact, Cynicism, and the Need for Constant Pressure ([17:46–24:30])
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Book’s Purpose: To show that human rights action can yield results—naming and shaming does matter, especially where reputation-sensitive regimes are involved.
“What I wanted to do was just draw back the curtain and show people how we had an impact.” – Roth [19:28]
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Ongoing Pressure: Lasting change requires relentless vigilance, as illustrated by recurring crises such as DRC and the resurgence of the M23 militia.
“It was this threat of cutting off aid that got Kagame to stop… But he has many fans and… has used that to fend off that pressure today.” – Roth [25:10]
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Trends: Roth is unafraid of cyclical regressions; democratization and repression ebb and flow. The global demand for accountability persists.
“There are trends over the years where things get better and things get worse…that’s kind of life.” – Roth [26:07]
6. New Challenges: Access, Populist Cynicism, and the ‘Elitist’ Critique ([28:45–35:45])
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Shrinking Workplace: Authoritarian and populous regimes increasingly bar groups like HRW, but digital tools and open-source analysis have offset physical inaccessibility.
“Because of open source analysis … we actually are able to monitor all kinds of places even when we can’t get somebody on the ground.” – Roth [31:51]
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Against ‘Elitism’: Roth rejects the idea that global human rights advocacy is elitist, emphasizing public pressure and moral clarity over legal technicalities.
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Collective Rights: Autocratic populists erode human rights by redefining “the community” to exclude minorities, emphasizing a need for a broader sense of solidarity.
7. Controversies Within Human Rights Advocacy ([35:45–41:01])
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Movement vs. Professionalism: Roth argues movements rarely sustain pressure or policy sophistication; professionalized organizations are more reliable for day-to-day advocacy.
“I’m not against movements, I’m just against movements as the panacea.” – Roth [37:49]
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On Decolonization and “Monopolizing” Power: He defends HRW’s role as amplifier, not gatekeeper, of local human rights concerns; scale and investment, not exclusion, explain HRW/Amnesty’s global advocacy monopoly.
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Instrumental, Not Absolutist, Approach to Rights: Human rights is one moral framework among others, but the key work is swaying public opinion and moral sentiment, not legalistic ritual.
8. International Justice and the Limits of the ICC ([44:18–51:41])
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Genesis of the ICC: Roth reflects on HRW’s instrumental role in building international justice institutions.
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Successes and Disappointments: The ICC prosecutes warlords but has struggled to convict top government officials, mainly due to political obstacles and custody.
“It has pursued actual prosecutions and convictions, really only of warlords. It has not convicted any government official.” – Roth [46:22]
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Jurisdiction Politics: Explains the basis for ICC jurisdiction, counters US/Israel objections as inconsistent and self-serving.
“This is not a principled objection … This is just the Israel exception to U.S. foreign policy.” – Roth [50:35]
9. Organizational Leadership and Internal Dynamics ([51:41–57:12])
- Management Style: Roth avoided ‘hero leadership,’ decentralizing ownership to country/issue experts and prioritizing professional standards over micro-management.
“I would kill the organization if I tried to make it all about me.” – Roth [55:15]
10. Economic and Social Rights ([57:12–60:23])
- Early Resistance; Later Embrace: HRW’s legitimacy, Roth insists, mandates serious work on economic and social rights—but with rigor, focusing on misuse of state resources and governments’ obligations, not blanket advocacy.
“Our legitimacy is based in the existence of these treaties, we couldn’t pick one and not the other … but I tried to introduce more rigor.” – Roth [58:44]
11. The Making of the Book and Afterlife ([60:23–64:12])
- Chapters were shaped organically around stories and key themes: China, Russia, Rwanda/DRC, Poland/Hungary, international justice, the UN, and his own formative years.
- Plans: Book tour, teaching at Princeton, ongoing public commentary.
12. Advice for Aspiring Human Rights Advocates ([64:12–68:21])
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Skills Over Credentials: Language, analytical, and communication skills matter most; living abroad to acquire perspective and connections is valuable.
“Human Rights Watch never really looked at a degree…what we wanted were people who…can speak the relevant languages…who had the analytic skills, the writing skills.” – Roth [65:53]
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Persistence & Creativity: Many start as volunteers or in adjacent fields. Don’t wait for the perfect job—start somewhere, and invest in developing practical skills.
“If you really are passionate about this, find a way to start doing the work…there’s nothing like that for opportunities to emerge.” – Roth [67:05]
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Non-Western/Activist Contexts: Acknowledges difficult and dangerous settings; sometimes work must be done quietly or from exile.
Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments
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On the Realism of Human Rights Advocacy:
“I don’t have patience for these theories that 30 years from now might deliver a better world. I want to know, how do we stop the killing today?” – Roth [37:36]
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On Naming and Shaming:
“Even in a case like China, the Chinese government cares desperately about its reputation. We have enormous leverage with China because it doesn’t want to be shamed.” – Roth [21:00]
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On the ICC and U.S./Israel Double Standards:
“Once Putin was charged, the US changed its mind and it embraced territorial jurisdiction…This is just the Israel exception to U.S. foreign policy.” – Roth [50:35]
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On Democracy and Authoritarian Trends:
“When they’re living under autocracies, they don’t like it and they want democracy. Our biggest challenge today is, ironically, not in the governments living under autocracies…but in the established democracies, where we are seeing a backsliding.” – Roth [27:53]
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On Professional vs. Movement Approaches:
“I’m not against movements, I’m just against movements as the panacea…you can’t keep people mobilized into the street day after day after day.” – Roth [37:50]
Timestamps for Important Segments
- [03:10] – Introduction to Human Rights Watch and its niche.
- [05:49] – Roth’s entry and early days.
- [10:01] – Evolution of advocacy approach and rise of HRW’s influence.
- [12:03] – Syria example: strategic advocacy and reliance on non-U.S. actors.
- [17:46] – Core message of the book; addressing skeptics and impact mythology.
- [24:30] – DRC case study; importance of sustained pressure.
- [28:45] – Autocracy, democracy, and global trends.
- [31:44] – Overcoming access challenges; open-source methods.
- [35:45] – Roth’s critiques of movement-focused activism and academic theorizing.
- [44:18] – International Criminal Court: achievements and limitations.
- [51:41] – Organizational leadership, HRW’s growth, and management style.
- [57:12] – Civil/political vs. economic/social rights in HRW’s work.
- [64:12] – Advice for careers in human rights.
Useful Links
Summary prepared for listeners who want a comprehensive, engaging overview of Kenneth Roth’s conversation on “Righting Wrongs” and the state of international human rights advocacy.