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value comfort in it's calling your name. Save on the stay. Oh, and free waffles are yours to claim. Bookdirect@storieshotels.com welcome to the New Books Network. Hi, this is Rebecca Buchanan, host at New Books Network and today I'm here with Kimberly McCrae to talk about her latest novel, Someone Else's Husband. Kimberly, thanks for being here with me today.
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A
No, thanks for having me. I'm so, I'm excited for this conversation.
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B
Could you start by giving a little synopsis about the book, telling us what it's about?
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A
Sure. It's well, it opens with a knock at the door on Richard Falk's apartment door and the police are there to search because a young woman named Frankie Callahan has been murdered and Richard was recently on a climbing expedition to Kilimanjaro with her and the police seem to think he has something to do with her murder. So that's the place we open. The book is narrated from the points of view of Frankie Callahan and Richard's wife Gretchen. And so Richard is quickly arrested for the murder of Frankie and you see Gretchen trying to piece together what happened in the present. But then Frankie's sections occur in the days leading up to her apartment getting turned into a blood soaked crime scene. So and so Frankie's sections flashback to the climb in Kilimanjaro where she met Richard. And so you see that literal and figurative journey and also the days leading up to what happened to her. And Gretchen flashes back to her marriage, but also again as she's trying to piece together while Richard's in jail. What really happened.
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B
So could you talk a little bit about what inspired you to write this? Was there, you know, something that triggered. Is not the right word.
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A
Yeah, it's a good word though. It's a good word. There's always a trigger. It's always a prayer. Yeah. So I in fact climbed Kilimanjaro about it was in the summer of 2023, and I was recently divorced and it was. I'd been kind of on a Eat, Pray, Love journey, a kind of version of that, my own version of that. And this was kind of the last phase of that was climbing Kilimanjaro. I am a endurance athlete and had climbed other mountains, but this was the first of the seven summits I was doing and I had always wanted to do it. And so. But it was really kind of the first big trip like that I'd done as a non married person and done alone. And I'd actually done other expeditions like to Machu Picchu, you as part of a couple. And had had had the experience of there was a like a single woman on that trip. And so, and I remember, you know, kind of actually at the time, very arrogantly or whatever, puzzling over kind of, you know, her being on her own. And here I was all these years later, headed off to Africa, which is a big trip. I had been to Africa before, but I had never been to Tanzania. And so, you know, it's a long way to travel and to a country I'd never been before. And also to do the expedition itself alone. And I knew that would be a big, a big deal. But I really honestly had been expecting it to be a bunch of couples. The people I knew who had climbed Kilimanjaro had all been couples for some reason, like Machu Picchu. So I had kind of thought, this is going to be hard. I'm going to be like the one single person and there's going to be all these couples. And when I arrived, it was me and a group of men who all knew each other and who were all married. And I just kind of arrived and I was like, you gotta be kidding me. I just, it just seemed to me, I was like, well, so this is a setup for a book just because, like, what are the chances? So I ended up being the only woman and all there. When you climb Kilimanjaro because it's an expedition that travels, there's a lot of porters too. There's a lot of staff. So I ended up being like the only woman among like 40 people, 40 men. And so. But what was remarkable. And you know, you will talk about the climb in the book, but it was an incredible experience. The people I climbed with were amazing and respectful and wonderful and the guys were too, and everyone was. But I really did have. It was the first time in my life or in my post marriage experience where I was like, wow, I'm no longer the wife. Like, I just had this real new sense of my role in the world as like this other person. And so you have nine days to think about this while you're sleeping in a tent sitting. So I was just like puzzling over that. And I really just knew the whole thing just really felt like a book. And it took a while to understand what book. And so, you know, the book itself is narrated from the perspectives of the wife and the presumptive other woman. And because I really had the sense of, isn't that funny? Like you go from being a wife one day and then suddenly you're again, I wasn't the actual other woman, but, but being maybe the other woman and how the world just sees you so differently. And it seems so arbitrary to me because I was like, I'm the same person I was yesterday, but now the world is going to view me in this other way. And so I really just thought about those roles. And I think, and oftentimes when we see books about like a love triangle, when there's a marriage, either the wife is made to look like a fool or a harpy or something and then the other woman is just this horrible vampire. It's just their caricatures. And I thought, you know what, like both these people are people and they have their own narrative and they are own story. And so I wanted to really take that idea of the love triangle and the trope of the other woman and the, and the long suffering wife and really examine them and pick them apart. So the book is definitely a mystery. I always want that part to work and to be satisfying and for those pieces to lock into place. But what I really cared about was exploring just kind of how these rules for women are so confining.
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B
Yeah, I want to talk about, about your research and you know, and doing that. But first, how was it? Because you did have, you did do. It's, you know, two very different points of view. Right. And so can you talk about a little bit about that process in writing that like, was this something where you were thinking, I'm going to write from. So Gretchen is the wife, like Gretchen's point of view and Then I'm going to. Did you go back and forth as you wrote? Did you write sort of one and then the other? Can you talk a little bit about. Because that process and how that work for you?
- [07:43]
A
Yeah. So I. All my books are from multiple narrators, so it is something I'm accustomed to. I do write straight through Chron chronologically, so I don't. There are different points at which I. During the editor editing process, where I will pull both threads separate, so to make sure the arcs work and the breaks and what have you. But at the beginning, in the first draft stage, I really just write my way through and I really, you know, I think it's like. It's a bit of a method approach to writing and like, method acting. I really just kind of sit in the skin of the characters, and I'm. I don't write with an outline, which maybe we'll talk about that process in more detail later, but I really just sit in their skin and try to inhabit them as best as I can. I. You know, I can relate to both of them. You know, they're. They're. Because I have been the wife, and I know that experience. And so it generally works best if I can latch onto something in the characters where I can connect to it. So neither one are me, of course, but. But there's enough in them that I. I can get purchase in imagining their experience, and I try to just lead from that place when I'm writing.
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B
So Gretchen is, like, independently wealthy. She is, like, right. Like, it's coming. You have sort of these two very different worlds that you're approaching to. And was that something you really wanted to make clear? Or, like, how did that. Did that come about kind of naturally? Why, you know, making them. Gretchen and Richard, so sort of in this wealthy side of New York City, and then Frankie, this sort of starving artist kind of space.
- [09:36]
A
Yeah, it's. It's interesting what you do kind of consciously and not consciously as a. As an author. Like, you're asking me this question. I'm like, did I think about that at any point? I would say no. You know, like, I just. When I imagined her, Gretchen, like, that's just. You know, even just like, you can see my body. Like, just. I just. She just had that kind of bearing to her. Like, she came from great wealth. And I think, again, if you. If you take it from like an. An archetype perspective, the idea of a wife is somebody who has the stability and the security and that. So if I took that metaphor and just amped it, right. So then it's a lot of money and it's a lot of generational money and it's a lot of really steeped in that. And if you take the idea of the other woman as being somebody who's kind of living on the margins and doesn't. Isn't a part of the traditional establishment because to me that, that idea of being the wife, there's a bit of like traditionalism with it. And so I made Frankie, you know, be an artist because it's somebody who lives a non traditional life. And there's a little bit in here about like, you know, the idea of like the art monster versus the, the wife and mother and, and looking at again. So I tried to take the idea of the, the wife and the other woman, but then like drop drive them farther apart and these are all ways to kind of distinguish their existence. Which I think to some extent, if you take out the metaphor is a lot of the reality. I mean like a woman who, I think Frankie's 39 or something in the book, you know, who stays unmarried and chooses that life is not viewed as necessarily part of the norm. And even now, right. Like that's not necessarily quote unquote typical, whatever that means. So anyway, so I, I think I wanted to explore that to, to just kind of amp it up in both directions.
- [11:33]
B
And as for you as like someone who writes sort of mysteries, thrillers, do you come into it knowing kind of where you wanted to go to? Like this is how I want it to end as a writer or did the, as you sit with these characters and write these characters, do they kind of tell you the direction the story is going to go?
- [11:52]
A
I usually have a general sense of the who done it right. And really actually more strongly the who didn't do it. So like I will know that. And so, and I actually think I own in almost every book I kind of know the general direction the twist is going to take and how, because I usually have two points of view, how they're going to thematically unite. What I don't always know is actually who did it. And although in this case I think I did pretty quickly, usually as I write my way in, the other secondary characters all know my main characters and certainly the point of view characters when I start. But the secondary characters I don't always know. So as they're introduced sometimes certainly the secondary twists unfold as those people kind of present themselves. But that is writing my way into it as I go. But it does help to have a general sense of Usually my twist relates to the theme. It's not like, you know, it grows from that, from character and theme, usually that where the story ends up. So I have that as kind of a point in the distance that I'm writing to. And that helps because I know, like, I know what I don't want to have happen because I'm trying to, for lack of a better word, say something with the book. And so I know certain things aren't going to happen because that would be in contradiction to the points I'm making. So that that frames it somewhat and allows me the space that then to have the characters guide most of it on a scene by scene basis. And then when I'm revising, which is where most of my work takes place, I can see some of it I will have done subconsciously, which makes it all sound like, like woo, woo, weird, whatever. But when I'm looking back the revision, I'm like, oh, like this connects to that, you know? And like, and then I start to see how the pieces of the puzzle really lock into place. And then I will elevate those, those bits later.
- [14:04]
B
So one of the things, like as I'm reading the whole thing, I really wanted to talk about writing about that Kilimanjaro. Right. And that. And you say like, now that I know that you climbed it, there's some in there. But like, what kind of research did you do? Like, can you. And like writing about that. Can you talk a little bit about just writing about that climb and that experience and, and really making it. I, I mean, realistic. I don't know if that's the right word. But yeah, that experience and like, what other research you might have had to do besides just doing the climb itself?
- [14:39]
A
I mean, I did have to go back and look at the details, so. And in fact it was rather. I tend to focus on research and details like that rather late in the process. And so if any. And that's true actually of legal details. I am a former lawyer and I, I tend to just kind of write the whole thing and then I'm like, now which parts of this did I get wrong? And like, which do I. Because I, I don't want to be led by. I don't want to be led by the plot and I also don't want to be led by facts or, or research. I'd rather edit accordingly. And I do sometimes have to change things. And here with respect to the climb, I really just drew on my initially my memories of the sensory pieces. So, so there are nothing that happens in the book, the climb itself really happened. But I will tell you, like, one small non giveaway detail was there was this snow on top of the tents one morning when she wakes up. And which is atypical because it was burning hot the day before. And so that is actually then the tents were red. And I remember thinking, they look like gumdrops. And I think I have that line in the book. And so that actually was just from my memory and actually was a thought I had when I was there. So all those kind of sensory details about Tanzania and about Kilimanjaro came from my memory. But what I didn't remember was like, you know, the different altitudes and the different camps and their names and all that stuff. I mean, it had been two years ago, and it wasn't really until, like, I think it was my editor or the copy editor was like, wait a second. Like, wait, what? Like, you're here and then you're lower. Like, I was just putting in, like, height, and I was like, I was just making it up. And based on my memory, vague memory. So I had to go back and do research into the locations of the camps. And, I mean, there's a lot of different ways to climb Kilimanjaro. And so again, I would say the sensory details come from memory. There are, like, lots of things that happen in the book. Some of them dramatic and terrible, and some of them just these small, exaggerated things that didn't actually happen. But, you know, for instance, there's a little scene with, like, a bunch of ants. And I did discover that the ants bite and they climb up your pant legs. Like, that actually happened to me. So the way the scene plays out, none of those things happen. But I was like, what is baiting my legs? And I. And they were like, oh, the ants. And I was like, wait a second. Wait. Like, ants in your pants is a thing. I remember being like, wait, that's a. That comes from an actual thing. The ants go in your pants. And so I, you know, so you can see how you haven't read the book. Like how a small detail like that, like me getting ants in my pant legs would become the scene it is in the book and so that I did not have to research that. But there are lots of things, small things in the book I have to research. Like, I, you know, I rely on experts. I rely on crime scene experts. I rely on detectives. I have a prosecutor who reads my whole manuscripts. Like, so. But to me, to me, those details really matter. They matter so much that they'd be correct. But again, they don't drive the story so I can write the whole story and then make sure I get that stuff right afterwards.
- [18:16]
B
Now that's fascinating throughout the book too. As you move from point of view to point of view, you have little. Well, it's either transcripts or diary entries and that kind of thing. Was that something that you, again, as you were writing, you're like, this is what I want to intersperse each kind of chapter, or did that come later? Can you talk a little bit about that too? Because that sort of adds to the narrative and drives the narrative as well.
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A
Yeah. So I again, I tend to have some sort of interstitial elements in all my books, mostly because. Because I tend to be in the points of view of usually two characters and usually very close and perspective either first person or very close third person. So it might as well be first, inevitably, because it's a mystery. There are pieces of the story that I can't get in that way always. So then I think to myself, like, what's missing here? Like, what perspective do you need as a reader to understand this, to feel it, to have it be suspenseful? And then, then I work backwards into figuring out who, who would it be best to and how to get this information. So, meaning Richard, the husband you really only see from the police transcripts. You know, you see him, but you don't. You see him from the point of view of the two women. And you know, it's deliberate to me, it's not a story about him, but I did feel like you kind of want to know a little bit, get in his head a little bit. As a, as a reader, I felt like it would be important to get some sense of where he was coming from. And so I thought, okay, well, so how am I going to do that? And then I was like, all right, well that's also helpful because I could give you some information that will add to the mystery so you can see how. Then I was like, all right, so transcripts, police interview, that, that would be a chance for him to tell his story and give his point of view. And also I can get some, some plot things in there too. This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50 page restauran block, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it, ready to make anything online make sense there's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required compatibility and availability various 18 plus. Your call has been forwarded to voicemail. Hi, this is Zoe Deutsch and Nick Robinson. Our brand new movie Voicemails for Isabel is all about those little moments that feel like the universe is looking out, feeling homesick. Then your sister calls hearing that perfect song exactly when you need it. Sometimes life rigs things in our favor, like learning about your new favorite rom com Voicemails for Isabel Only on Netflix June 19 Good sleep is everything. That's why Ollie's Science Back support is made with a blend of melatonin and L theanine for both kiddos and grownups. So when your mind won't switch off, you've got something that can help your racing thoughts and restless nights won't stand a chance. Find Ollie Sleep solutions for the whole family@ollie.com that's o l l y.com this Father's Day do more with dad and spend less with low prices guaranteed at the Home Depot, get him fired up with a new grill and accessories like the next Grill 5 burner for drill just $299 so you can spend more time together while he becomes the grill master he was always meant to be. Or build memories with savings on top brand power tools so you can tackle projects side by side, gift more and do more together. This Father's Day with help from the Home Depot exclusions applies to homedepot.com Pricematch for details.
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B
Yeah, so when you you telling the story from the point of view of these two women and both of which throughout the story, you know there's a struggle with whether or not they are the reliable narrator, right? Are either of them reliable? Right? Or do we have a reliable narrator at all? So is that like as again, as a writer, are you thinking about that too? Are you wanting to make them both somewhat unreliable so that we it adds to the mystery or yeah. Can you talk a little bit about that?
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A
Well, the reality is I think every single one of us is an unreliable narrator because of our own lives. Because I think we're all everybody. Truth is always in the eye of the beholder. And that is something that has it's a theme that's dominated all of my work, dominates my life because I spent a lot of time being like how could that person think that thing that is so obviously wrong. But you know, not only is the truth is the eye of beholder and that everyone is a hero of their own story, right? So like Yes, I think so. They're both. Are unreliable narrators, but I'm just always playing with that idea. And then, of course, like, there's sometimes. And in some of my books and in some places, people are, like, more unreliable than others. Right. Like, so. Which I, again, I think is, like, it's meant to be the puzzle of life. So if, like, my mysteries come from the relationships of the people with the people, and you're like, I. I'm always exploring that idea of. Of to what extent anyone is ever telling the truth because, like, what is the truth? There is no truth, really. It's all of us just coming to every situation with our own history and our own lens and our own. So it's. It's complicated. And I think it. That's what makes these situations so emotionally laden.
- [24:24]
B
Yeah. One of the things. And I don't think this is a spoiler at all, it comes like that, like, sexual assault comes up in this. Right. Like, and it's a really an experience that, for Frankie, that kind of drives who she is, like, throughout her whole life. And so can you talk a little bit about that, about writing about that? Was that something that you wanted to make sure was part of this, or was that something that sort of came as you were kind of thinking about, who is this character?
- [24:55]
A
Yeah, I think I. Again, I never. I never come at it first by, like, I'm gonna put this thing in there, you know, Like, I. I'm never like, that. I want. I didn't say, like, let. Somebody's gonna have been sexually assaulted and, like. Or that should be. That person should be Frankie. It's more like, I'm. I'm in her point of view, and she's arrived at this place in her life. She is this person. Why would she be this person? And I have a lot of, like, trauma in my own history, so I think that that, again, is a theme. Various kinds of trauma comes up in a lot of my books. And I think that grappling with that in my own life, it just naturally kind of ends up coming into the lives of some of my characters. And I would say that Gretchen has a very different kind of trauma in her own life, but she has it too. And so that is. That's part of it. Again, when I was giving Frankie a story, I was like, what are the reasons why somebody like her would be who she is? And then I kind of sit in her past and I think about who she is now and who she would have been? And that is the story that presented itself to me when I was kind of living in her skin. And that, that made the most sense to me. So it really is informed by the person. It felt like she was. I mean, I could have made it. She was driving a car and had a car accident and I didn't, you know, so I made it something else. But it really did evolve from, from her character rather than anything else. Like why, you know, what are the reasons people have complicated relationships, romantic relationships and a tenuous relationship with that. And I don't think that assault, of course, is not the only reason that happens, but it's one of them. And so again, that was the one that just seemed to fit and felt right when I was living in her skin. That felt like the right thing.
- [26:59]
B
So for you with this book, was it a quick. I don't know if I. A quick write like you say, you sort of write linear. So did this take. Was this a book that you kept returning to or was this one that just was like, okay, I've got it, I've got it down. I'm going to get it out?
- [27:17]
A
Well, it's. No, I've never had that experience in my entire life. So it's never been easy. It never is easy. But I would say it was a typical experience for me, which is hard and exhausting and messy. And usually it takes about 18 months of, you know, seven day a week kind of non stop writing because I don't write from an outline. I am writing my way in. And so it's a mess. That's what I like. When you were saying, I was like, oh, it's a mess because it's always a mess because I don't really know, I don't fully know. Like I, I, like I, I'm making it sound like I knew exactly what I was doing. But like I, I had the idea and vague strokes, like the idea of these two women and the thematics and the whatever, but then like the devil is always in the details, right? Like what, what is Frankie's past? To be clear, she had a totally different past at the beginning. So that tells you something. Like, you know, she. I think that that assault was a part of her history, but like it wasn't. There was a lot of other stuff that over complicated her story. So I had to. Usually I end up with way too much. So if you. I always laugh because you were like, your books are so complex. I'm like, you should have seen the first draft.
- [28:38]
B
You think this is.
- [28:40]
A
God, my poor editor, when she had to read me. They're like, okay, so we can make this like a third of what is in here. So, yeah, I. I would say that. I will say that I was working on another book that I, you know, I had. This was a second book of a. You know, it was under contract, this book. And I was about a hundred pages into another story. And I just really, as. After my last book, like mother, like daughter. And I was about 100 pages in, and I was just like, this is not feeling good. And I've never pivoted that far in. Usually if. I think it was about 130 pages. Usually if I get that far into a book, I'm going to do it. But I had just come back from the climb and I was working on this other book, and then I was like, you know what? Like, I just. This really felt like the story I. The most immediate story. So I may revisit that other book and. But it just didn't. I didn't have the same. I didn't have the same clarity about it, like, this idea. When it came to me, I was just like, I'm very clear on, again, thematically, the story I'm trying to tell and that. And then when I think about the characters and the landscape, I can kind of tell I have a book with legs, for lack of a better word. When all those pieces are in place like that, the field, the playing field is big enough. I have a big enough cast of characters, enough space to move, and the idea is big enough that it will, like, the thing can kind of grow inside of it. And so I have a feel at this point. I mean, this is book nine. I have a feel at this point of when it's. It's a good story to stick with, even if. Because they're going to be dark times, you know, like, and the spots where I don't know what I'm doing, but as soon as I started. And also I can tell from if I'm excited, you know, to be working on it and I'm having fun writing it. And this absolutely had that energy the second I started writing it.
- [30:48]
B
So you sort of alluded to this, but I always like to ask, like, was there something that. Because, you know, you do multiple drafts, you come back and back and back. Was there something that really surprised you that you thought, okay, I. In your editing process, right, or your revision process, that you completely change that you can talk about, right. Like, sometimes it's like, well, that's going to spoil what I'm talking about, but. Right. Was there something where you Were like, I had it, or I thought my first draft, I was going to do this. And, you know, that totally changed.
- [31:20]
A
Yeah. I mean, I. Again, I think Frankie's story was very different. She had. At the beginning, she had been married and she. Was she still married? I can just say, honestly, her story was so complicated. Like, I. And I'm not even sure she was an artist, actually. I mean, she had. Obviously, she had been on the climb, but she. There were. It was too similar to Gretchen, you know, like, they weren't. And so part of is. Is separating them out. Right. So, yeah, that was. So I think that she was. She was divorced, but I think that her husband. Her husband had cheated. And so it was kind of the inversion, you can see, like, what I was playing with, the idea that she had been cheated on. And, like, I. Like, it was a good thought. It's like, oh, that would be cool. And then I was like, this is way too. It was too many relationships to manage and what have you. And so, yeah, like, I think I was curious about the idea of what if you had been cheated on? Like, what. What would that feel like then to be thrust into that role of the. Maybe the other woman. And. But it was, again, a layer too complicated. As you can tell. My editor was like, delete all of that. That's way too. It's just too complicated. Again, if you. Wait, it's one thing if you're not doing a mystery, but, like, there are also things I have to. You know, there has. There's a. What happened we have to get through. And it's just too many things.
- [32:56]
B
Yeah. Like, I mean, I feel like I love a good mystery, and it's always hard because you have to have enough characters so that we know that someone who we're introduced to has done something somewhere at some point. Right. But you also have to make sure that you can give a little backstory to all the characters too. Right. Not just the two main characters. And so with this, too, it's like, how do I fit in all the different elements? And making sure you have just enough information about everyone. Right.
- [33:27]
A
Yeah. And that's a very delicate process. And that, again, is. I think revision focuses heavily on that because in the first draft, I won't have time. I won't have had enough mental space to have gone into each of the characters. But I can tell. And in fact, I won't give this. Say who this is, but there was a character who kind of played out differently on the page at the beginning and, you know, actually was A late reader kind of pointed out, like, that it was too direct or to something. I. Again, I'm trying not to give away the. The important part of it, but it. Sometimes it. Like there's so many moving parts. Yeah. So sometimes I have to get things settled and then be like, all right, let me just look at this person and what their. Because you're right. With each one of them, they all have a backstory. And in my mind, it's even much deeper than it is on the page. So sometimes I have to kind of. I can tell when a scene is not resonating or it feels shallow or if it's like. The problem is usually in that I haven't thought through that character in detail enough. And I'll usually go back and catch that in a revision.
- [34:43]
B
You just said how many people do. I mean, you have your editors and your people reading, but how many readers do. Not necessarily. But you have readers read for multiple different reasons. Like, you mentioned early on that you have a pro. Like, someone read it for sort of legal reasons. So do you have people sort of go through and are like, okay, I want you to read this for, like. And really pay attention to X. Yeah.
- [35:07]
A
So I don't. And I. I don't have anybody read. The first person to read is my editor or my agent. So I don't. I don't consult. I. I have friends who, like, give chapters to people. And I'm like, ah, you're so insane. What do you. And I also don't have anybody read it. Except, I mean, occasionally if I'm like, you know, if it's a new project that's not under contract, occasionally people be reading samples early. But I really like to get a whole draft done before because to me, the creative, the act of creation is so fragile that I cannot. It's. You might have a great idea that I'm going to completely use. But, like, I need to. It needs to just be my voice in the early stage because it really comes from such an. A dialogue between the conscious and unconscious, like that I really just need that process to go and let it kind of just kind of form on its own, which is, you know, I kind of live in the book the whole time I'm writing it. And, you know, you're making connections when you're on a walk, when you're on a run, you know, like in the shower. So I kind of need that whole process to go. So then my editor and agent will come in and be like, oh, God, what is this? You made this Terrible thing. So after the first draft is done, and then my editor gets involved very early, I would say, given that that process is so messy. So she would read a very early draft and then the. Usually it's a series of conversations rather than like editorial letters, because it's still so being formed for me at those early stages. I don't bring. I bring kind of beta readers in after it's been revised with. In collaboration with my agent and editor many times. So because, in part, because I don't want anybody again, aside from my editor and agent giving me feedback before I have made it before, I don't think anything's wrong with it. Because if I still know there are things wrong with it, like, I don't need other people telling me what's wrong with it. Like, let me. And for me to get it to that place, it needs to be basically headed off to copy edits. Like, and then I'm like, okay, now somebody who hasn't seen the other versions, now what do you see? And that then they're giving me new feedback. And also, to be honest, by that point, my editor and agent have looked at so many versions, they're beginning to have a hard time seeing it because they're seeing the first, you know, like, especially because it's a mystery, right? Also, so as I've changed the characters and as I've changed the arc of things, it's helpful to have fresh eyes who are just. Just seeing it. Like. So that friend who gave me that really kind of critical note hadn't seen earlier versions. And so for her, like, she went, you know, beeline to this one point that was very obvious to her because she had. She was fresh. And then the experts I usually consult around the same time when it goes off to copy edits, because all this stuff is there and there still won't be space for me to make changes. So I, you know, the copy edit stage, I'm really. There are still. It's not just, you know, punctuation and whatever. There's. There's significant changes to be made. So then I give it to my. Usually a police detective and a prosecutor. And I often I. Unless for certain experts, like, I have a forensics expert, them I give just excerpts because they don't need to read. It's like crying, you know, if it's just like, something about how fingerprints work or how blood spatter works, then I just give them those scenes. But for the prosecutor and the detective, usually it's. I want a holistic, like, response to whether or not they see. Because they can see bigger problems because the case, you know, again, those legal things is kind of embedded in a much bigger picture. And so I want to make sure I catch those things. Yeah, so. So that's kind of how it works. And I. Those people are kind of all reading at the copy edit stage and then I also get the copy edits and so I integrate all of those changes. And sometimes, you know, I've been lucky so far that I haven't had to like, like, you know, occasionally I'm like, oh no. Like somebody will tell me something and an expert. And I'm like, oh God, like, how can I? But it's kind of part of the fun is like, oh, how am I gonna fix that? Like, that is a problem. And, you know, I'm. I was a lawyer. I'm pretty resourceful. I figure out a way to, you know, get things in. And again, I'm not writing a treatise on, on mountain climbing or on the legal system. So it's fiction. So I do the very best I can. But obviously it's. That's not going to be perfect.
- [40:01]
B
So we've been talking for a while, so I'll ask you the. My final question is just sort of self promotion. The book comes out on June 16, so anything you want to promote about this novel, anything you have going on or anything else you're working on that you want people to know about?
- [40:17]
A
Well, I mean, I'd love to see people while I'm out on tour. So I have a, you know, launch event in New York City on the. On June 16th. Everyone's welcome to come to. All of those details are on my website, which is my full name, kimberlymcrate.com and you know, I'm very active on Instagram. I love to make appearances at book clubs virtually. If people reach out to me there, I always try to make it work if I can. So I just love talking to readers and it's especially fun once people have read the book. So I can spill all the secrets and get people's inside take on it.
- [40:52]
B
I know it's always hard when there's a mystery. It's like, okay, well we can, can we talk about that? Can we?
- [40:57]
A
Exactly. It's finding a way to parse it so you can talk about it but not talk about it.
- [41:01]
B
Awesome. Kimberly, thank you so much for talking with me on New Books network again. Kimberly McGrate and her latest novel, Someone Else's Husband.
- [41:09]
A
Thank you so much. It was great chatting. Thank you for listening to this episode of the New Books Network we are an academic podcast network with the mission of public education. If you liked this episode, please share it with a friend and rate us on your preferred podcast platform. You can browse all of our episodes on our website newbooksnetwork.com Connect with us on Instagram and BlueSky with the handle ebooksnetwork, and subscribe to our weekly Substack newsletter at newbooksnetwork.substack.com to get episode recommendations straight to your inbox.