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Lara Silverman, "Singing Through Fire: A Memoir of Finding Surprising Joy in Life's Darkest Trials" (Isaiah 4320 Press, 2025)
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- [00:00]
Marshall Poe
Go beyond the verses and achieve a deeper understanding of Scripture with the Rebind Study Bible App. An audio experience of the Bible interwoven with expert commentary. The Rebind Study Bible App reads Scripture to you, enriching your comprehension with insights from the world renowned New International commentary on the Old and the New Testament in an accessible podcast episode format. Be not therefore anxious for the morrow. Matthew chapter 6 each day will have.
- [00:27]
Megan Johnson
Its troubles, but by God's grace they can be survived.
- [00:31]
Marshall Poe
Use the Rebind Study Bible App's chat function to ask questions and get answers in real time. That's thought provoking discussion and analysis rooted in decades of research and wisdom from more than 40 scholars at your fingertips. The Rebind Study Bible App is a new way to experience the Bible with enhanced depth, at your own pace in the moments you have. Search the Apple App Store for Rebind Study Bible or go to Rebind App for a free seven day trial.
- [01:01]
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- [01:30]
Marshall Poe
Hello everybody, this is Marshall Poe. I'm the founder and editor of the New Books Network. And if you're listening to this, you know that the NBN is the largest academic podcast network in the world. We reach a worldwide audience of 2 million people. You may have a podcast or you may be thinking about starting a podcast. As you probably know, there are challenges basically of two kinds. One is technical. There are things you have to know in order to get your podcast produced and distributed, and the and the second is, and this is the biggest problem, you need to get an audience. Building an audience in podcasting is the hardest thing to do today. With this in mind, we at the NBM have started a service called NBN Productions. What we do is help you create a podcast, produce your podcast, distribute your podcast, and we host your podcast. Most importantly, what we do is we distribute your podcast to the NBN audience. We've done this many times with many academic podcasts and we would like to help you. If you would be interested in talking to us about how we can help you with your podcast, please contact us. Just go to the front page of the New Books Network and you will see a link to NBN Productions. Click that, fill out the form, and we can talk. Welcome to the New Books Network.
- [02:38]
Megan Johnson
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another episode on the New Books Network. I am Megan Johnson. Megan used to be Megan Wildhood. And I have a guest I'm very excited to talk about today. Laura Silverman. So, so happy to have you join me. Tell our audience here whatever you would like them to know about you as we get started.
- [03:03]
Laura Silverman
Well, thanks so much, Megan. It's just been such a pleasure chatting with you, even just over email. And so basically, I'm, you know, I'm a former federal prosecutor and, and I, you know, I always wanted to go to law school, but then I fell, you know, pretty severely ill. And I'm sure we'll, we'll talk about that. But I also love acting and singing, and I love the Lord. And it's been quite the struggle through really intense suffering to keep that love going, frankly. So we'll get into that.
- [03:32]
Megan Johnson
Absolutely. That is an amazing summary of the story that I know that you have, because I just read your memoir, Singing Through Fire. And this is what we're here to talk about, this story. Not just the book, but the story and everything that inspired it. And so I would love for you to tell our audience what inspired you to write about your incredible, truly incredible story.
- [04:00]
Laura Silverman
Thank you so much. So, basically, after my husband died a year and three months ago, I felt this unmistakable call from the Holy Spirit. Like, one day a friend was like, have you considered writing a book on your journey? And I was like, no, I'm not an author. I've never been interested. You know, I'm a lawyer. I don't. And, and then the next day, another Christian friend called me up and was like, have you considered writing a book? And I was like, no, this is really strange. So I started praying about it. And then the following week, I kept bumping into Ephesians 2:10, which says, the Lord has prepared good works in advance for us to do. So I, it felt like, okay, Lord, I, I, I hear you, and I, I will respond to the call. And so I started typing. And so it took me about 10 months to write the book. No shorter, maybe it was eight months. Anyway, it doesn't matter. But I, I wrote the, you know, the whole story of the last eight years of my suffering and Then I spent the last few months publishing it, marketing it, and I just released it last month and it's doing really well. Actually, it's an Amazon bestseller now. So I'm just so. God has really put his hand on it. So I'm just so humbled that he's redeeming my suffering because I've been through a lot, as you know.
- [05:13]
Megan Johnson
Yes. I am so happy to hear that. I. It's amazing that you wrote this story in such a short amount of time. It's so. I mean, I hate to use the word inspiring. That is such an overused word. But I. Even though it is a book about intense suffering that most people don't experience, I would say I've not come across anyone who has had all of those things happen, let alone one of those things happen that you describe in your So I think it's such. It's so incredible and such a testament to your commitment to proclaiming the hope and the joy of the gospel that you wrote such an incredible story that is. Is truly. It is full of suffering. Not. Not to like, shy away from that at all in such a short amount of time. I. I want to share with readers, too, potential readers as well, that it is. It is such a refreshing way to look at intense suffering. There is honesty, there is candor, and there's rawness in the book, which I think most people who have been through some form of suffering very much appreciate and can relate to. But it's not anything like a pity party. It's not poor me. It's actually, and I genuinely mean this, quite hilarious and even sometimes laughing at the suffering, which takes talent. A lot of people, including myself, have struggled with that in life for. For very much less suffering than what you describe. And I think that is one of the major contributions that this memoir gives to the, for lack of a better term, the. The body of grief literature, the body of suffering literature that is very rare. I find it is very difficult to laugh at one's suffering when they're in the middle of it. Maybe like years, you can look back and everything's fine, but to laugh when things are, like, not fine, even as they're not fine and getting worse. And I. I wonder if you could talk about that. How does one keep a genuine sense of humor, but also not dissociate from the suffering.
- [07:40]
Laura Silverman
Oh, what a. First of all, I mean, thank you so much. I. I'm just so humbled that you had this reaction to the book and enjoyed it. Like, it just. I almost want to cry because it makes my heart so full that, like, the Lord used my words to communicate this in a way that's attainable and reachable and, like, digestible. Because I knew, first of all, that I had to include humor because otherwise the story is just. It's much, you know, you don't want me. It's probably hard enough to get through, you know, but so I. First of all, I wanted to include humor for that reason. And I. To your point, I wanted. It's not like I wanted to be so different from everyone else. Like, not from a pompous angle, but I knew, like, you're saying that a lot of the grief literature or Christian books that I've read are usually coming at it from like a. I don't want to be mean. Like, not a preachy standpoint, but kind of giving, like, okay, this is how we go through suffering. Kind of like. Kind of almost like a workbook, but in novel form. But I wanted to tell a story and to tell it in a comical fashion because I'm an actor, I'm a comedian. I like, you know, I like telling stories in an engaging way. So. And frankly, Megan, like, that really was our story. So to answer to your question, like, Matt, my husband and I really did try to. To grab onto humor and God's, like, joy in eternity, like, even amidst this fire, like, every second. Because when your husband is dying of, like, it's really. I mean, there's only one way to survive it. You're either going to say, okay, my husband is going to live even the minute after he dies, like, this is the hope we have in Christ, so I can have joy today, or you're going to wallow in despair. And I did plenty of that, right? I. And I didn't want to do that anymore. And I was authentic in my memoir about the bitterness and the anger and everything with the Lord. But I also showed how he repeatedly called me to have joy in the stage suffering. So it's this balance. I mean, Paul says, sorrowful but rejoicing. You know, Paul and Silas are singing in the prison. I mean, the New Testament is all about what you just outlined, Megan, which is we are mysteriously called to suffering, but we're also called to rejoice in it. Because God has purposes that, frankly, we might never see until eternity. But we have to trust, because we can see some of his purposes here.
- [10:03]
Megan Johnson
I love that. It's so true. A lot of Christian books, and I've been helped by them. The workbook, like, this is how you get me, too. Totally.
- [10:10]
Laura Silverman
Yeah.
- [10:10]
Megan Johnson
So it's not to take away from any of that. This is just also a very refreshing look at what it truly means to have joy in suffering. Not after it's over, but while it is happening. And I think, too, one of the things that is also very unique about this book, that. And it's not that I've read all of the Christian books on grief out there, but it's. I could not put it down. And it's like, wow, what. What kind of story that is? It's truly full of. Of a lot. A lot of suffering. And it's like that. It's almost kind of offensive to be like, what happens next? What happens next? What happens next? But I. I had to know. And I wondered how. If there's a way that you could describe. How did. How did you capture the reader so thoroughly that they literally, like, they have to, like, just one more page. Just one. I was literally begging my husband to stay up just one page later. Just one page later. And I'm truly not trying to be gratuitous with my confidence. And this is actually my experience of this book, which, if you were to tell me, like, well, it's a book about how I couldn't get out of bed for three years and I married a man dying of cancer, I'd be like, yeah, I don't know. I don't know if I really am ready for that in my life. But I could not. I could not put it down.
- [11:30]
Laura Silverman
And.
- [11:31]
Megan Johnson
Or was that. How did you capture the readers? Was that, like, how you experienced going through it? Or how did you just. You just captivated the reader's attention that way.
- [11:40]
Laura Silverman
Thank you. Okay, so I will say that so I can tell you. I mean, I'm very type A in the sense that, like, when the Lord called me to this, I was like, I have no idea what I'm doing. So I literally just consumed every resource I could find on YouTube in terms of creative writing. And I also love writing because I'm a lawyer, but legal briefs are very different from writing a memoir. So I had no idea what I was doing, but I very much taught myself. I mean, I watched so many courses. I mean, there's so many free resources on YouTube, and I basically trained myself on, I mean, how to. And I. Because I'm an actor, I think it helped me be a better storyteller because I kind of know how audiences react and how to tell a story arc. And, you know, so, you know, that part of my background really did help me. I think the Lord did prepare me with those quote unquote talents. You know, it sounds pompous, but, like, in terms of making it like, oh, I can't stop reading. One of the main tactics was at the, like, I mean, I'm sure you know this, but, like, at the end of each chapter, you want to kind of keep a little bit open so that the reader thinks, oh, my gosh, what happens next? And it's a psychological trick. And I learned that, you know, reading one of these creative writing books and. But it just. I think it really worked for me. So I kept thinking, how do I wrap this chapter up but give kind of a teaser, like a taste? It's like in real life, right? Like, whenever we're given something, we want to know more. So I think that tactic really worked.
- [13:11]
Megan Johnson
It's totally the same in real life. I love that as a writer, I've totally used it. And it's like, even as a writer, I can recognize when those things are being used and they still work. It's still like, like, oh, no, I know this is a cliffhanger. I know that this is on purpose. And it. I still need to know. I still need to know what happens next because it's so true. It is so true. It's the same in real life. And so one of the questions I have now is, what. What has happened next after you've written and gotten this book out into the world?
- [13:45]
Laura Silverman
Yes. So basically, the Lord called me to make the audiobook version two weeks ago. And like, in other words, and I don't say that lightly, like, oh, the Lord said this. The Lord, like, I swear to you, like, again, friends just kept. After three weeks, after I published the paperback and Kindle, like, all these friends kept messaging me, are you going to make the audiobook version? Are you? And honestly, because I'm still so sick, I just, I. I'm exhausted, you know, I didn't feel. But I started praying about it and I can't explain it. I just felt like I need to do this. Like, I just. So, yeah, I booked a studio which is, you know, relatively close to my house. But the car ride make my brain spin harder. So it's been really hard. I did one recording this week, but. But it's going well, you know, so, yeah, so the Lord opened the door to this studio. Like, you know, I mean, I don't know. I think that the audiobook version will be digestible for people who don't, you know, they don't have time to sit down. You know, everyone's Commuting. So, yeah, so that's my next project.
- [14:45]
Megan Johnson
I love that because I feel like I wanted. When I was reading, I wanted to hear it in your voice because I could tell that you were a storyteller and a performer. And I just was like, I would love to hear how she would say this, how she would like. There's a lot of dialogue, there's a lot of back and forth between other people. And it was fun imagining that. And so having the audiobook version, especially because it's. That's what I mean, if you're. If you got an hour long commute, you can listen to an audiobook. And I feel like it's a different experience too, especially when you get to hear it read in the actual. Not just author's voice, but the person who it happened to. And I feel like that will be a very personalized experience, even more so than the book is. Even reading the book, I felt like it was a personal experience. And I also want to note too that what I love about the book and then also just the way that you have answered the questions and talked about the book is that it's. Even though it's a memoir, it's like, not really about you. It's very much led by the Lord. And I, as a believer myself, I find that fascinating. I find sometimes it's hard to stay in step with the Lord like that. Like, I want to go my own way. I'm type A also. A lot of people told me I should have gone to law school for that reason, I think. And it's just, it's so refreshing to hear someone else say, like, oh, this was. This was the Lord's leading. It was not my. It was not my idea. It was not my calling. And the fact that you can say both the Lord does call us to suffering and also calls us to these projects to get the story really of how the, the way I read the book anyway. How to get the joy of the Lord as the primary driver of your life, even in the middle of suffering. I think a lot of books are written, as I said, from the like, from the perspective of like, the suffering is like way far behind. I've come through. I know I'm okay now. So now I can write out how I came through it rather than, no, we're having joy right now. Like, your illness is still happening and there is not a cure that you know about and it's been years and yet you read this hilarious book that's like, it is truly a joy to read. Not That I take joy in suffering of another, but that it is. This is the joy that transcends.
- [17:32]
Laura Silverman
Exactly. I mean, you couldn't have said it. I mean, you're, like, preaching to the choir. You're just. You have such a way with words, too. Like, I love the way that you're encapsulating what I tried to communicate in the book. So I'm so glad that it came through. I mean, one of my main themes was having joy in grief. I mean, that's you. That's probably the thesis of the book, is like, we are literally called not only to take up our cross, but which is so counterintuitive. Like, who thinks about that verse unless they're suffering? Like, no one really takes it seriously. When Jesus said that, if you want to follow me up, take up your cross or die to self in order to live. I mean, there's so many Galatians. Is it Galatians 1:20? I mean, it's just all over the New Testament, but. Yeah, but God also calls us to find his joy amidst it, which is so hard, but yet he provides those avenues if you only look for them, you know?
- [18:25]
Megan Johnson
And. Yeah, I mean, it's something we don't. As a. As a Christian who's read all of those verses over and over again, I'm like, oh, yeah, that's cool. Okay. Joy and suffering. That's great. That's like, a fun thing that other people get to do. But it's like, you did it and are doing it and having that experience. I mean, not with you, like, in the intense way that you are, but the way that you invited people into your story, the little piece that can be with you in it, I think has taught me what those verses really mean. Because it's not like, you know, oh, yeah. Once we're safe from that bad thing that happened, and it's way in the distance, we can find joy. Now it's like, no, you find joy while the bad thing is going on, which may be the rest of your life. And that's the amazing part. We often want to think of suffering as this event. And then the thing is, right? And how much do we want it to just be like, oh, it was a thing, and now I'm leaving it behind me. And I love the wrestling, too, that you put in the book that is genuine and raw. You're like, obviously, the Lord's gonna heal me. Of course, that's what the Lord does. And we all think that. Like, you said the quiet part out loud. We all think that we're all, oh, something happens, the Lord's gonna wave his magic wand, and now it's gonna be all better. Because that's what mercy means. And it's like, what if it doesn't mean that? What has won if it doesn't mean that? And exactly. I want to know, too, how is it, having written about someone that you loved so deeply as Matt, your husband, and having only had a short time with him, and. And how. How do people react to that? Like, when they know that story, do they react with like, oh, I'm so sorry, or do they react with joy that it's like, oh, you got to have that. Like, what is the reaction to that? The love story piece of this?
- [20:30]
Laura Silverman
That's a great question. The reactions are pretty much split down the middle. I think people want to give me compassion when they say, you know, I'm so sorry, you only had one year. So I get plenty of that. Which, frankly, helps me because I do feel like I'm getting empathy. Like, you know, the body of Christ is, acknow, like, how tough this is. But then I do have other people who are like, I am so glad that you got to experience that. Like, better to love and lose than never love at all. And, you know, I mean, not that that's necessarily a Christian thing, but it. I think it is, because the Lord gives us gifts for however long, and they're all temporary gifts. I mean, even if you're married for 40 years, like, it's just temporary. I mean, think about eternity, man. It blows your mind. Like, what is eternity? Like, I can't even fathom what that even means. So. And then there's the whole bag of worms of, like, you know, I do get depress, depressed sometimes because I'm like, man, Matt and I aren't going to be married in heaven. Like, you know, the whole Mark 12:25. And, you know, theologians debate that, but, you know, there's a verse I believe we won't be because, you know, there is a pretty clear verse. But it's like, lord, why do you take away the best gift? Like, I mean, not to idolize marriage. And that bothers me, too, when the church idolizes marriage, because that led me to idolize marriage. And that's why it was really tough for me to get through this. But, yeah, that's the love story. I mean, for the. For the audience who doesn't know because I didn't mention it. I mean, three years into being bedridden, the Lord brought this man into my life, and he was diagnosed with terminal cancer himself. And he basically gave me a theology of suffering and helped me cope in a moment when I was extremely angry at God. And, you know, long story short, we randomly fell in love and we prayed desperately, like, do we marry? Do we not? Like, is this wise? Mad is dying. I mean, you can imagine. But the Lord, like, seriously told us, go for it, like, move forward. And I'm very risk averse. I'm a type A lawyer. I would not have married this man, even though I was like, totally madly in love with him. But, like, it's scary, you know, the idea of losing this person. But even CS Lewis married his wife Joy when she had cancer. It was a different kind of cancer, but they got four years of marriage. But in his memoir called Grief Observed, you know, it's sort of a different beast than mine, but he does, you know, discuss the. The great. You know, I don't know if he was bitter, but it kind of feels that way when you read it. You know, at first, I mean, he clung to the Lord, but anyway, so yeah, these. The love story piece was a huge part of my book. So the women out there who are interested in a very romantic love story, you'll like that angle of my book as well.
- [23:02]
Megan Johnson
I loved that I. Because I was. I was in denial too. I'm like, no, he's. No, he's not going to die. The way this, the way this ends is that they find a miracle cure. Of course, until. Until the very moment I was like, no, this is not going to end in him dying. No, it will not. And even though I'm like, I know it does though.
- [23:22]
Laura Silverman
I know that you know them.
- [23:24]
Megan Johnson
I know that because I. I've seen the Instagrams, but I was still. Because there's something about love, isn't there, that we just like, no, it should not end. It shouldn't end the whole. No marriage in heaven. I'm like, come on, though, why? Because I also believe that. That there is no marriage in heaven. Well, yeah, we're not married to each other.
- [23:43]
Laura Silverman
We're married to Christ. Yeah, right? It's like the wildest. Yeah.
- [23:47]
Megan Johnson
Yeah. We're like, this is just a foretaste of it. And I'm still just like, But I want this, though.
- [23:53]
Laura Silverman
So I. Yeah, me too.
- [23:55]
Megan Johnson
I totally. I mean, I get that part where I'm like, What? Yeah, even 40 years is just a blip in the scope of eternity. I can't even fathom. I've tried to think about, like, what is eternity like? No, my little mind Cannot, cannot fathom. Not at all.
- [24:11]
Laura Silverman
Me too.
- [24:12]
Megan Johnson
So yes, this concept of eternity, I think it's something our little human brains cannot comprehend at all. And yet I found that it was at least the way I understood it. In your memoir, it was one of the ways that you were able to anchor into joy, especially after Matt's passing. And I wanted you to talk more about how eternity relates to joy.
- [24:45]
Laura Silverman
What is such an insightful question? Because frankly, it's the pinnacle of the joy, just like you identified. And it's not like a cop out, like, oh, I'm sick of this life, this sucks. Like, I just want to go on to the next. It's more this idea which I find tried to encapsulate in the latter part of the memoir, about how if you know that you are going to live forever, because that's what Jesus promises in John 11:25, he who believes in me, even though he die, will live. If you, if you really believe that, then you can actually not fear death. A and it transforms the entire concept of death because I mean, frankly, we're all kind of scared of it, even though we're Christians, right? Because it is an enemy and it's just the unknown and we're wired to have, you know, self control and control everything. And you know, but, but, but the third point is when you don't fear death and you know that you're going to live forever, it allows you the freedom to live more so here. And it's kind of counterintuitive, but the reason is like, if you have nothing to fear, like, why don't I enjoy every second? Like, like, like even if I took my last breath tomorrow, who cares? I' start enjoying heaven. So it's like I'm just going to be in a different place, but I'm going to be alive. So it just changes the whole calculus. Like, and when you're not suffering, you don't think about eternity. At least I never did because it's just, it's so pie in the sky. Like, we don't, we don't know what it's like, we don't know how to frame it. The New Testament doesn't give us too much about what heaven will be like. I mean, it does give us a lot. If you read the literature on heaven, like I've read many of those books and some of them are quite good. But, but the Bible, you know, to a certain extent we're kind of extrapolating on the few things Jesus said, you know, today you will be with me in paradise or the fact that we will have resurrection bodies and the. I mean, so we know some things, but. But to get back to the point, the. The idea of eternity is the only reason I was able to slap a smile on my face as my husband was dying, because otherwise despair would have swallowed me whole.
- [26:56]
Megan Johnson
Right, right. And you actually answered one of my other questions, which was, why is it so hard for us to even believe in eternity? I think people. Christians, I think. I mean, I had a hard time even believing that was a thing when I was a Christian at the very beginning of my journey. And because it's. It's so. It is nothing like our experience here. We know from the minute we're born, everything changes, everything ends. And even though I think the eternity pieces. Well, though everything ends, there's always a new beginning after that. And you're totally right, though. If there wasn't eternity, what.
- [27:40]
Laura Silverman
What would there. What would.
- [27:41]
Megan Johnson
What would even be the point of suffering?
- [27:44]
Laura Silverman
Yeah, I mean, like, I mean, I. I don't want to trigger anyone, but I would be totally. I mean, I would be a depressive basket case if I. I mean, you cannot go through this kind of suffering with. If you don't. I mean, at least I couldn't. I mean, there are strong people. I mean, in other words, if you don't have hope in something past this trivially dumb. I don't want to say dumb life, because the Lord, it gives life as a good gift. But in terms of getting through the suffering on this, you know, planet, you know, it's a broken world with cancer and, you know, awful people and cruel things that happen, and just don't think I would be able to survive unless I had hope that, like, this is just temporary. There is something more. And I do want to address because for the people in your audience who might not be Christian or might not believe in eternity, I saw something really cool on Instagram a couple months ago, and it was this guy, and the clip had gone viral, and I thought the argument was quite persuasive. He said, think about the baby. And there are two babies, let's say twins, in a mother's womb. Did you see that one? Yeah.
- [28:45]
Megan Johnson
Amazing. Talk about it. It's so good.
- [28:48]
Laura Silverman
Yeah. I mean, basically, for those listening, the baby, one baby was, you know, telling the other, like, oh, there's nothing outside this womb. Like, we're still comfy and cozy here. I want to stay here forever. There's definitely nothing after this, you know, life quote, unquote. And the other baby's like, no, no, like. Like, the minute we get out of here, it's going to be a whole new world and our life is going to continue. It's going to be slightly different, but it's going to be even better in terms of sights and sounds and. And. And life and. And, I mean, the analogy was just so apt. Because it was like, obviously the baby with faith was. Was Right. Right. Like, just because the other baby couldn't see the outside world doesn't mean that there isn't life outside the womb. And so the analogy for eternal life is just brilliant.
- [29:34]
Megan Johnson
I saw that clip. It was so good. And I was like, wow. After I watched it, I'm like, that's how. That was so obvious. How did I not see that before? You're like, there's one baby that's like, there's no life after delivery. And it's like, yeah, obviously the whole point of delivery is life. Like, that is the entire point of birth. And it's like, the.
- [29:56]
Laura Silverman
What?
- [29:56]
Megan Johnson
There was something about, oh, oh, oh. The other. The ending was, you know, don't you think that once we're born, we'll get to meet mother? And the other baby's like, there's no mother. What even is that? That's not a thing. And the baby's like, but if you listen, I think you might be able to hear mother's voice. I think. I think mother might be all around us. And I was like, even as a believer, that completely changed how I think about God. And that's all over the Bible, that God is all around us. And if you listen carefully, you can hear his voice. And there is life after death and all of this. And I was like, how did I not think about this in this very, very obvious way until I saw that clip? Of course, it went viral. Oh, it's so good. But I mean, that is also a level of suffering, too. Like, birth is suffering, I think, not just for the mom. It can be traumatic for babies. And to have that be like, if. If you are. If you don't have hope for anything after this life, it does make this life kind of, I would say, meaningless in a way that doesn't produce good character, which is what I think one of the points of scripture, in scripture says of suffering is it is to produce the fruits of the Holy Spirit. And I have known many people who have suffered what they would consider greatly and what maybe greatly, and it has totally produced the fruits of the Holy Spirit. And I have seen and know other people who have experienced great suffering where it has not produced the fruits of the Holy Spirit. And I wonder what you think the difference is, because in. In your memoir, you talk about, like, the wrestling. Like. Like, you're so. You're so mad. Why would God give this gift and then take it away? And I'm like, I totally relate. I would be 100 furious as well. Like, oh, you're just mocking me. You're dangling a thing I really want in front of me. Just snatch it away to. And then you're. You won't get it back in heaven either. Like, it's not even. Oh, yeah, everything will be restored. Like, okay. Marriage won't be, though. So, yeah, you get this teeny taste and then it's taken away. And yet. And yet I can tell, and I. I could tell in. In your memoir, too, that suffering, all of the kinds of suffering, the kind of walking through terminal cancer with your beloved that did on this life end in death for him, not in eternity. I believe he's alive, just not in this place. But also your own intense suffering that has taken away a dream career. Those are two giant things that. I mean, what else is there in life, right? Love and work. What else? What else is there?
- [32:38]
Laura Silverman
Your love, health.
- [32:40]
Megan Johnson
Yeah, yeah, what else? Love, health, career. There. I mean, what else? What else do we got? And yet I can tell that it has produced the fruits of the Holy Spirit. I could tell by reading it, and I can tell even more by talking to you, that it has produced the fruits, especially of peace. That, to me, was the most amazing thing about this was. I mean, because you're not just a little bit suffering. It's not like I have a limp, but otherwise it's fine like you are. No, you are to this day, mostly bedridden. And I. I sense. I can sense that there is the peace that passes. Understanding.
- [33:18]
Laura Silverman
Exactly.
- [33:19]
Megan Johnson
Talks about. So how. What do you think the difference is in the way suffering affects some that leads to joy, peace, kindness, patience, and some that does not.
- [33:31]
Laura Silverman
Well, okay, so, because I'm always honest, you. You're looking at me after eight years of being in the fire and wrestling intensely. I mean, you saw it on the pages of my memoir. I did not want to hide it. I showed the bitterness, I showed the anger. And there's so much that I couldn't include because obviously you can't conclude everything. But my point is that I think for some of us who are more stubborn, it takes a long time for you to actually surrender, okay. And actually get to the point where you are willing to have the Lord turn your suffering into the fruits of the spirit. So, in other words, I have many regrets. You know, I wish that during my marriage I wasn't as bitter because it was. It was still. It was hard for me, you know, but you're seeing me now. I'm not trying to preach off my soapbox, but having hopefully changed, you know, somewhat, at least in terms of, okay, just take, take, you know, you give and you take. I mean, in terms. Growing in my spiritual maturity of being able to say, okay, Lord, your will be done. I'm not going to be bitter. I'm going to obey your commands. You know what's best for me. Which used to be a statement that frankly made me cringe in terms of, like, Lord, this is so patronizing. So it's best for me to suffer nonstop. I mean, but now. But this week, the Lord. I was struggling again, frankly, Megan. And the Lord gave me Proverbs 3, 5, like, a million times. And I was like, okay, Lord, lean not on your own understanding, you know, and he will make all your path straight. In other words, he was saying, you have to trust me. You have to surrender again, like, it's a daily denial, you know, because I. Every morning I have to remind myself, like, you have a choice today. You can either cry and, you know, you know, just grieve, you know, it's okay to grieve, but it's like I feel the Lord lately pushing me into more. Like, not enough is enough. But, like, trust me, I'm trying to give you more of that peace. So, yes, so I do have that peace. Because otherwise I would be a basket case. And you can see the joy coming off my face. But there is still a struggle. But the Lord, every day, he kind of draws me to him. It's like a daily take my peace, you know what I'm saying? It's our choice every day. So I'm trying to encourage the person. I know this was a long winded way of saying, I'm trying to encourage the person out there who thinks, well, I'm still bitter and I'm not feeling the fruit of the Spirit. And the Lord was, was. Was not good to me and this and that. We have to make the choice ourselves. And I learned that the hard way. Now the Lord will equip us, right? He's sovereign. But, like, there comes a point where you have to kind of choose. Am I gonna let him heal my heart? Am I gonna trust that he knows what's best for me, even though it makes no earthly sense? Even, you know, it's Just, it's so counterintuitive to say, oh, it's best for me to lose my husband. I mean, it's almost, like, insulting. But I swear to you, that's what the Lord's been communicating to me this week. It's like, I see the bigger picture and you don't. You are a puny aunt. And if you can't trust that I know what I'm doing, even in leading you through suffering, you really can't be my disciple, because his discipleship requires full trust. So, anyway, that was a long answer.
- [36:47]
Megan Johnson
I love that. I think it's. And I mean, I think the point, too, is seeing you after eight years, it's like, there is. The suffering is supposed to produce perseverance, and then perseverance produces joy. And so I don't think I've met the human that can instantly, the first time they experience major suffering, go, like, count it all as joy. Everything's fine. It's just like, no. What is happening? I don't deserve this. What's going on?
- [37:16]
Laura Silverman
Well, that was Matt. I mean, babe, did you see in my book. I mean, seriously, like, Matt. I mean, of course he had his first cancer as a kid, which I think informed his second suffering, but. But again, like, he was just. I have never met anyone like. Like, again, like, he was going through criminal cancer. Like, as if it's just something else on his checklist. In fact, like, even in hospice, like, I mean, I didn't get mad at him, but I was sort of secretly thinking, like, babe, aren't you more sad? Like, you know, you're not gonna be with me? Or, like, he was so resigned to the Lord's will that it's like. Do you know what I'm saying? It was like he was just resting in that joy of the Lord that I just. He was at another level. You know what I'm saying?
- [37:59]
Megan Johnson
Yes.
- [38:00]
Laura Silverman
And I don't know. I think that, frankly, some of that is a gift from the Lord. I'm not saying that God won't give the rest of us the fruit of the spirit. I'm saying that I think Matt really wanted it and sought godly wisdom, and God gave it to him.
- [38:14]
Megan Johnson
Ah, the sounds of an Etsy holiday. Now that's special. Want to hear it again? Get original and affordable gifts from small shops on Etsy. For gifts that say, I get you shop Etsy. Tap the banner to shop now. Yes, that too. I think it's. It's the choice piece where you. Every day. I mean, it does say, take up Your cross daily. It. When the Israelites were wandering around, they gave. They got manna daily. It is not a one.
- [38:48]
Laura Silverman
Yeah.
- [38:49]
Megan Johnson
A one and done kind of thing. And it's. That's what produces the perseverance. It's like, okay, I'm here asking again for mercy. I'm here asking again for patience. I'm here asking again. And it's to our puny brains, we're like, what is the point of that? I feel like I'm going nowhere. I feel like I'm getting nothing. There's no progress. But it's just in the perseverance that, okay, I'm choosing the Lord today instead of going into frustration, which could be totally legitimate. And it's not that there's no room for grief. There absolutely is. Which is one of the things I loved about your memoir. You balanced it so well, where it's like, yeah, these moments are real and raw and crying out to the Lord like, how could you do this? This is so unfair. Is something that is a very human response. And I think it would be not quite relatable if that didn't happen. But I also have to say, too, I loved not just the. Just the con. It was. I've never. I obviously did not meet Matt, so I only know him as a character in a story. But even as he was a character in a book, there was still this, like, oh, he. He must have done his work with Jesus to do what he did in facing terminal cancer at the age of 40, which is almost the age I am. And I feel like that's young. That's so young. And to have that level of pretty much unwavering. Like, there was one moment there that I remember reading, but which I was like, right, because we're all human. So there's not really. There's no perfection that's going to happen here, but just that the. We're just going to. We just keep. We keep turning to Jesus because this world is broken. And even the greatest gifts that the Lord could give on this earth are fleeting. Whether it's one year, 40 years, 10, whatever. And that. That I think is to draw us to the eternity piece is like, all of this is just. Even the greatest gifts are just tastes of heaven.
- [41:05]
Laura Silverman
Absolutely. And to. To extrapolate on that. One of the things that really helped me after Matt died, I mean, God drew even closer. I'm telling you, it's real. When people testify, like, when their loved ones die, they say, like, the Lord gives them a peace. Like, it. That is real. Like, I Experienced that. Like, yes, the emotions go up and down, like, you know, at certain points. But, like, on a general level, like, the Lord gave me this complete assurance that Matt is alive. Like, you have to read my memoir because God gave me couple. I don't want to say signs, like it's a weird word, but, like, you know, just like, God comforted me in certain ways that were extremely surprising and, like, it's just true. Like, so where was I going with this? Oh, and. And one of the ways that God comforted me was making explicitly clear to me, which, again, because we're earthly creatures, this just doesn't resonate. But the Lord told me, you know, that where was it? Oh, that the gifts in eternity are even greater than our temporary earthly blessings. I mean, that is wild, like, to think about, right? Like, I mean, just the idea. Because we, you know, we love love so much. We love marriage, we love, you know, kids, we love, you know, I mean, and I'm not trying to, you know, sound, you know, sarcastic, overly sarcastic, but I'm telling you, like, this is the God of the universe who created delicious French fr. You know, with paprika and garlic salt and all this stuff. It's like, do we really think that he doesn't have anything up his sleeve and he's just going to take away all the good things? And I mean, think about all the people who didn't get. Who don't get to experience romantic love on this side. Like, you and I clearly love it. You know, not everyone cares about getting married, but. But like, not everyone gets to experience that, you know, because singleness is also good. You know, Paul says in the. I mean, there's a tension there in the Bible. Maybe we can talk about that another time. Like, the Lord creates Eve for Adam and it says it's not good for man to be alone. But then Paul says, says singleness is better. So it's a bit confusing. I've asked the Lord this. I haven't gotten a clear answer on this, but that's. I'm digressing. But the idea that. Oh, so are all those single people just gonna, you know, lose out in eternity? Like, give me a break. I mean, Jesus and Paul were single and you know, that they are enjoying, like, the glory. I mean, what is the glory in heaven? Like, that's another concept. Eternal glory. Like, I. It again, it blows our minds. We don't know what it looks like. But like, I think it's Psalm 1. Is it Psalm 116, which says he has pleasures forevermore. At his right hand. Is it Psalm 16 or 116? Anyway, it's in there. So just think about that. And so.
- [43:40]
Megan Johnson
Yeah, I love that too. And it's, I mean, one of the things I, this reminds me of is there was a. I don't know if he was famous, but somewhat well known pastor in New York, Tim Keller, who.
- [43:54]
Laura Silverman
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [43:55]
Megan Johnson
He, I think he died in May of 2023. But yeah, and, and he started the Redeemer Presbyterian Church.
- [44:02]
Laura Silverman
Yeah, yeah.
- [44:03]
Megan Johnson
One of the things. And he died of pancreatic cancer. And so, and he, so he knew when the time was coming. And so he said, because people were like, you know, what, what, what are your words of wisdom on, on dying as a Christian and after pastoring for from 1989 to 2017 and then doing other kinds of ministry before his death at age 72. And he said that he, because he also had, well, he was an adult.
- [44:32]
Laura Silverman
When he had cancer, but he had.
- [44:32]
Megan Johnson
Cancer twice as well. And he said, you know, the thing that I hold on to is that in scripture it says both death is the last enemy and also it's been defeated. And therefore it is actually the best thing that can happen to a Christian because you get everything you want. You just don't always know what you want. And I loved that because it's, and it's not that we Christians are just, you know, waiting to pass on to the next life because there are character forming things that must happen here if we are to be fit for eternity. But it's also, it may be just less afraid, as you said. I think all of us are a little bit afraid of death because it's unknown. And, and what if it's painful and all of these things that you don't like, but it's, you get, you get everything you want. And which to me is like, but what if, you know, when I was single, I was single till I was 37. I mean, I went through one marriage and then I was single again. I was like, but what if what I want is marriage and you don't get marriage in heaven? What does that mean? And the whole piece about we don't know what we truly want. And I think one of the things that at least, least the suffering that I have experienced in life, that's refined what I think I want in life. Before I had gone through any major suffering at all in life, there were certain desires I had. Then I went through what to me at the time was major suffering. And it totally changed my desires. And it doesn't Mean that I got everything I wanted, but it changed what I was hoping for in life. And I wonder if that has been your experience as well. Like, do you think that the experience of intense suffering, which, I mean, I think suffering is kind of subjective for people, but, I mean, I would say your story is objective. Pretty intense suffering, for anybody reading that, that it's just like, oh, yeah, no, there's no way I'm strong enough to go through anything like that at all. What would you. Would you say your experience of, like, desire and hope is the. The difference between before the. The intense suffering and then now having experienced kind of eight years of personal suffering and then going through the journey of someone else's suffering as well?
- [46:50]
Laura Silverman
Absolutely. So I think that. So before I suffered, I was very much, you know, type A. I want to be a judge. I. I love, you know, intellectual discussions and solving problems and, you know, just the. The advocacy and, I mean, that's law school. So my life was very much about idolizing career and marriage, you know, and being raised Armenian and being trained that, you know, Armenian women just, you know, you. You grow up, you find, like, the hot Armenian man and you get married. And there's the Christian piece. Right. But it's not really the folk. I mean, it is the focus. But. So in other words, I had a totally different mindset now, having gone through all of this, I was. I will say, I no longer idolize health because I. You know, it took me eight years, but actually it took me about six years to come to acceptance with the suffering. On the physical suffering point. I mean, I. That was very difficult to let go, as you can imagine. But, I mean, I'm just. I'm almost like a totally different person, as you can see, in terms of coming to acceptance with having this thorn in my flesh and. But God. The only reason I got there was God comforting me and telling me, you know, this is similar to Paul in terms of, you know, my grace is sufficient for you and I. You know, so. So the. So the health piece, I've changed, the career piece. You know, frankly, would I love to be a lawyer right now? Yes. Would I love to be in the courtroom? Absolutely. But do I see extreme beauty on how God is using me on this podcast today, using my public speaking skills to communicate a theme about, you know, having joy and suffering to the Christian believers who might need it? Absolutely. In other words, like, I feel just a different calling nowadays, and I know there's a reason the Lord took me out of law, and maybe it was to share I mean, just to be a vessel of his. I mean, I don't wanna, you know, put myself on it, but in terms of. Or just a vessel of truth, in terms of what he taught me about biblical truths about suffering. So I have seen him redeem my pain and so on. The career question, you know, yes, I have grown tremendously there in terms of what I now value. Like, if no one's going to remember my legal. Not that you're doing it just to be remembered, but like we do stuff to have worth and value and, and contribute. But if no one's going to remember that I worked on, you know, this case in 10,000 years, who cares? But if they are going to remember how I, I mean, I don't know how it works in heaven, but like, if me helping other people go through suffering is something that lasts for eternity, which I think the Bible says, you know, these three remain faith, hope and love. And so. But then I will be honest and say the one piece that, as you we've seen in this conversation, the one piece that I haven't been able to completely change, frankly, is on the marriage front. And that's where the Lord has really. It's just because, you know, I'm a romantic. You're an author. I'm an author. You know, we're romantics. You know, we're, we love a good love story. And, and, but I think, and that's why the Lord this year really called me to say, you are. This is an idol. And, and it was very painful. You know, even he's like, there's a space for grief, but there's also. You're idolizing this. And that's why you can't let go of, of Matt in terms of why I took him and that sort of thing. So it's been up and down, you know, since Matt died. But I think in terms. So I haven't been able to quite let go of that tension because you. The question was, have your desires changed? I, you know, being honest, I would give anything, right, to just kiss matter or have him back. But I am trying to move towards surrender on, okay, the gifts in eternity are better than these temporary pleasures. It will be better than being married to Matt. And the Lord even told me that my relationship with Matt there will be purified, it will be better, it will be elevated. Like, we can't imagine the love there, but, like, it's going to be better because we're not going to be sinful. I'm not going to be bitter. He's not Going to be struggling with cancer. Like, I don't know how it works, but the Lord has, Has, you know, comforted me in that way.
- [50:59]
Megan Johnson
So I love that. It's so relatable too, to be like, yeah, physical health, it's a hard thing to let go of. And that still is easier to let go of than the love story for those of us. And I am totally one of. I wouldn't say hopeless romantic. I would say hopeful. Where, you know, even after I'd gone through a divorce, even after that, I was like, look, I still believe. I still believe in love and marriage. And then there came a point too, where the Lord was like, like, do you think maybe. Maybe this is a golden calf? A little bit? Like, let's.
- [51:33]
Laura Silverman
Oh, yeah, for me? Yeah, for sure.
- [51:36]
Megan Johnson
And that's. That was hard because at first I wanted to be like, no, of course not. I just want it. Isn't that natural? Don't a lot of people want marriage? And it's like, yes, and maybe a lot of children idolizing it also. Which I do have to say, I think our culture doesn't help. I think we, we go way off on the romance and we very under emphasize friendship, which.
- [51:59]
Laura Silverman
Oh, absolutely.
- [52:01]
Megan Johnson
I think if you read the Bible, it's clear you can be happy without being married, but I don't think you can have a full life without having friends.
- [52:08]
Laura Silverman
I think scripture says that totally. I mean. Oh yeah. I sensed that even while being married, like, not to take away from that, you know, but in terms of, like, I still craved that interaction with my friends. You know, like, it's. No one person can satisfy you, really. You know, like, like a good conversation like this with one of your girlfriends in fall when you're drinking pumpkin spice lattes and, you know, watching a movie. I mean, it's just there are all these feelings that come out, you know, it's different from romance totally.
- [52:42]
Megan Johnson
And I think too, after getting married, it's like I feel like you need your friends more because otherwise you are. I am tempted to rely on my husband so much more than if I didn't have him. So.
- [52:59]
Laura Silverman
Absolutely.
- [53:00]
Megan Johnson
It's. Yeah, it's wild how, how all of that works. And I think the thing that we. I mean, of course I could talk to you for hours and I think we'll. We should do a part two for sure if you are. Are interested. Because I am wanting to go more on this like, friendship, romance culture piece. But what I would love to do is spend the last few minutes here that we have first before I ask you the last question. I would love for you to tell people where they can find you, where they can find your book. We will also link all of this in the show notes so that people can find where to buy your book, where to follow you on any of the socials, all of that. I want to make sure people can get the book Singing Through Fire and follow your comedy show, which I just have to say that's sometimes the only reason I get on Instagram. But, yeah, where. Where can people find you? Where can they find out more about your work and what is. What's next?
- [53:59]
Laura Silverman
Thanks so much, Megan. So you guys can find my book on all international Amazon websites. You know, it's called Singing Through Fire, a memoir by Lara Silverman. It's L A, R A and then Silverman. Or you can go to bookstoread.com so books, and then the number two, read.com, singing through fire. So, yeah, you can. And it's available in Kindle and paperback. And I'm currently making the audiobook version, as I said earlier. So that's what's next. That's my big project right now. And the Lord is sustaining me. It's really hard for me to get in cars. I'm still basically bedbound. So basically, I appreciate prayers, you know, to get to this studio so I can, you know, do a good acting job and. And really do. And by the way, I'm going to clone Matt's voice, you know, so it's gonna be. It's gonna be great in terms of, you know, using him for the male parts or for his parts. Yeah. So let's see if I can. I can hack this. Hopefully the, you know, the Lord will help me, but. Yeah.
- [55:04]
Megan Johnson
Wow. Oh, that's amazing. Oh, my gosh. Because you have recordings of his voice of.
- [55:09]
Laura Silverman
Yeah, because he was a preacher. I mean, he had. He preached, you know, many sermons.
- [55:13]
Megan Johnson
Oh, man, that.
- [55:15]
Laura Silverman
Whoa.
- [55:16]
Megan Johnson
What a weird little taste of resurrection. That. That is amazing. I love that.
- [55:20]
Laura Silverman
Yeah, right? I love that so much.
- [55:22]
Megan Johnson
Cool. That's. So. That is amazing. I recommend Singing Through Fire, The. Either the. The book version or the audiobook when it comes out. And so the final question that I love to ask people, what, if anything, did I not ask you about that? You wish I would have.
- [55:46]
Laura Silverman
Oh, man. Let's see. Oh, man, this is really good. I don't know. Let me think. We touch joy and suffering. Well, I'll just share, you know, sort of on the topic of eternal glory. We didn't talk about life, like, how the Lord uses suffering here we didn't say, like, why can we rejoice? Like, what. What is the purpose of this? And some of the stuff that the Lord taught me is there's this verse in Second Corinthians 4:17, which says, Our light and momentary troubles are creating for us an eternal glory that outweighs them all. And at first it sounds so pie in the sky. Like, I don't want to suffer here so I can get, you know, ponies and cupcakes up there. It's like, what is this eternal floor? You know? But like. Like, the Lord really gave that verse to me over and over again to kind of say, look, I know you think I'm not just. I know you think I'm just cruel, like, giving you one thing after the next in this Job, like, story. But look at Job. Like, look at how Job's story ended. Like, the Lord, you know, you know, did restore, you know, double and, you know, all the, you know, kind of tying it up in the bow. I mean, obviously the first 10 kids, I mean, that we could talk about that. We should do a whole other session on that. But, like, in terms of, like, the Lord was, I think, was giving that in the Bible as a. To show his redemptive pattern. In other words, there are countless verses in the Old and New Testament which support the idea that you will be rewarded. And it's not like some twisted, like, you must suffer to get lollipops. It's like, we are doing work here, and part of the good work is suffering to spread the Gospel. I do believe that by suffering here, people, it's a witness, because people see how you react, are you going to remain a Christian? Are you going to curse God? Are you going to love God? Is Jesus worth it? And when we suffer, which, frankly, I botched a lot of the time, but you can see I've changed. When you suffer, well, it's really a testimony for that. Christ sustains us so. And the Lord will reward that. So in other words, on the eternal glory question, these trials you're going through, because I know there's probably a woman or a man out there rolling their eyes. Like, the things you're going through. The Lord promises in Scripture that he is using them to achieve your personal eternal glory. Read the verse. It's not about God's glory. Like, God is sharing his glory with us, us, through your own suffering. So it's a mystery how that process works. I have a whole chapter on this in my memoir. But that's why he's the redeemer like, he's actually switching it. And there were John Piper sermons on this. There are many sermons on this. But it's. Think about that concept this week, because it will blow your mind and change how you view your temporary trials. And that's why Paul had joy. Like, Paul wasn't a psycho. I mean, he wasn't like some masochist who was like, oh, yay, let me suffer for Christ. It was like he knew what was ahead. He knew that there were rewards in Christ. So, anyway, yeah, I'd love to end on that because it's, I think, very encouraging.
- [58:45]
Megan Johnson
Yes, I love it. I love. I was. For the listeners. I was muted. Otherwise you would have heard me laughing uncontrollably and clapping. So you would not have heard the amazing exhortation that we have that actually you can have joy in suffering. Not after, but in suffering. Suffering. Which is why I encourage everybody to pick up Singing Through Fire, even if you are not a believer, because this is actually very accessible. This is a very accessible book for people who are. Who have, like, they weren't raised in the church. They don't know about the Bible. It is a very great place to start, I would think when you've maybe you've heard people say things that sound insane to you, like, you can have joy and suffering. You can have. Have peace. That makes no sense. All of these things are on display in Lara Silverman's book Singing Through Fire. And I want to thank you so much for joining me from the Interwebs as they are. We're almost a country apart right now, so thanks to technology, I got to speak to the author of Singing Through Fire. And I'm sure there will be a part two because there's so much. We just scratched the surface. Surface as I think her memoir did, too. Look for the audio version of this amazing memoir. Thank you so much for joining me, Laura. I so appreciate it and I look forward to the part two.
- [60:09]
Laura Silverman
Thanks so much, Megan. It's honestly my pleasure. Thanks for platforming me.
- [60:14]
Megan Johnson
It is my pleasure to do so. Thank you so much for tuning in listeners. And we will see you again on another episode of the Poetry People and Things channel of the New Books Network podcast. Thanks so much.