Podcast Summary

New Books Network: Interview with Lawrence Grossman

Episode: Living in Both Worlds: Modern Orthodox Judaism in the United States, 1945-2025
Date: October 12, 2025
Host: Rabbi Mark Katz
Guest: Lawrence Grossman

Overview

This episode of the New Books in Jewish Studies channel features historian and author Lawrence Grossman discussing his new book, Living in Both Worlds: Modern Orthodox Judaism in the United States, 1945-2025. The discussion explores the formation, evolution, and challenges of Modern Orthodoxy in America, tracing it from the post-World War II era to the present, and considers key social, intellectual, and political changes that have shaped its journey. Grossman and Rabbi Mark Katz probe the shifting boundaries within Orthodoxy, central institutions, major trends such as the rightward shift, the role of academic scholarship, feminism, LGBTQ inclusion, and the evolving relationship between American Orthodoxy and Israel.

Guest Introduction and Motivation (03:27)

• Lawrence Grossman introduces himself as a native New Yorker, raised Modern Orthodox, educated at Yeshiva University (YU), ordained as a rabbi, and an academic historian who spent most of his career at the American Jewish Committee:

  “While I am from this community and part of this community, I am not affiliated with or a member of any of its institutions other than my local synagogue, which I think gives me a certain objectivity.” (04:58)

• He notes his longstanding interest in the transformation of Modern Orthodoxy and the lack of a comprehensive historical account, motivating him to write the book.

Current State and Key Institutions of Modern Orthodoxy (06:11)

• Numbers and Demographics

  • US Census does not track religion; Pew estimates ~5.8 million Jews in the US, of which 4.2 million are “Jews by religion.”
  • Of these, 12% identify as Orthodox (~500,000), and only one-third of those (“about 160, 170,000”) are Modern Orthodox.

• Major Institutions

  • Orthodox Union (OU): Largest synagogue body, founded 1898.
  • National Council of Young Israel: Smaller, distinct identity.
  • Rabbinical Council of America (RCA): Main rabbinical organization, YU/Hebrew Theological College background.
  • Yeshivat Chovevei Torah: Associated with “Open Orthodoxy,” founded by Rabbi Avi Weiss.
  • Yeshiva University: Flagship Modern Orthodox educational institution; recent decades have seen shifts in internal culture and academic orientation.
  • Lack of Charismatic Leadership: Discussion of the move away from major individual figures (e.g. Rabbi Soloveitchik) to more institutional leadership.

  “It's very difficult to discern leading individuals in the movement, but that's true of all the denominations...These institutions now seem to be running on their own speed without necessarily having charismatic leadership.” (09:46)

Formation and Divergence from Conservative Judaism (11:29)

• Pre-World War II: Lines between Modern Orthodoxy and Conservative Judaism were blurred; practices and self-identifications overlapped.

  • "If you went into a Conservative synagogue or an Orthodox synagogue, you would find basically the same thing. There would be English readings, men and women would sit together, people would drive to shul on Shabbat.” (12:09)

• Post-World War II:

  • Conservative Judaism: Became officially less bound to Halacha (Jewish law), allowed driving to shul, distanced from stricter ritual observance.
  • Modern Orthodoxy: Retained commitment to Halacha, grew more distinct through influence of European Holocaust survivors and increased ritual seriousness.

  "These more serious Orthodox Jews, more observant Orthodox Jews, had an effect on their neighbors who suddenly see, hey, you know, these are people who are really serious about Judaism. And this too pulled modern Orthodoxy away from the Conservative movement." (15:29)

Shifts to the Right: Influences and Anecdotes (16:24)

• Illustrative Changes:

  • Mixed Dancing: Once common in Modern Orthodox circles and synagogues; eradicated after increased influence of postwar European Orthodox immigrants.
  • Concept of Kollel: Full-time Talmud study, imported from Israeli yeshiva culture, became an ideal even in Modern Orthodox realms, much to the discomfort of earlier Modern Orthodox leaders.
    • Rabbi Soloveitchik famously urged students toward secular education and careers, not full-time Torah study—an attitude "almost gone" today.
  • Social and Ritual Stringencies: Head covering for women, stricter dietary observance, and other practices moved rightward under new influences.

  “Mixed dancing is out... Kollel means full time learning supported by the community… This started to pervade even the modern Orthodox sphere.” (19:08, 18:11) "Rabbi Soloveitchik thought it was, yes, knowing how to study and to be an erudite Talmud chacham, but also being Secularly educated, having a career. This now is gone or almost gone.” (21:44)

Decline of Torah U’Madda Ideal and the Yeshiva University Experience (21:51, 23:39)

• Fewer Modern Orthodox Jews embody the model of being deeply learned in both Jewish and general/secular studies.

• YU’s Evolution:

  • Major culture shift from prioritizing liberal arts to business education.
  • Intensified focus on “Night Seder” and full-time learning influenced by Israeli practice; “Torah and business” replaces “Torah U’Madda.”

  “In my time at yu, there was no nightsater... There were so many history majors, now there's barely one. They're all business majors and they learn. So this is the thing, Torah and business, that's the way to make it in America.” (25:32)

Defining "Modern Orthodox" and Categories Within (26:51, 27:51)

• Fluid Identities:

  • New designations: "Centrist Orthodox" (Rabbi Norman Lamm), “Open Orthodox” (Avi Weiss), “Social Orthodox” (practice but not belief), “Philo Orthodox” (appreciates tradition but lacks faith).
  • No strict boundaries, but a "family resemblance" centered on structured, Halachic life and communal practice.

  “What they have in common, what the family resemblance is, is a desire, a need to live a structured halachic life, to do all of the things you're supposed to do, whatever your theological preference is.” (31:04)

Academic Scholarship and Modern Orthodox Thought (31:41, 32:41)

• Biblical Criticism and Orthodoxy:

  • Only in late 20th century did Modern Orthodoxy begin openly engaging with critical biblical scholarship.
  • Online resources like TheTorah.com and scholars in the community make critical methods accessible.
  • Recognition that Orthodoxy, including Halacha, has evolved and continues to change.

  “Certainly in the modern Orthodox community, much of it is now very open to a more critical approach to the Bible and also more critical approach to Jewish history... I think now Orthodox Jews too are understanding that it indeed does change.” (35:45)

Feminism and LGBTQ Issues (36:40, 38:10)

• Feminism:

  • Early resistance (“God created you differently”), but over time, increased acceptance of women’s roles in synagogue organization and even new educational paths for female clergy.
  • Notable figure: Blue Greenberg’s advocacy pivotal.
  • Exist institutions ordaining or recognizing women with alternate titles (“maharat,” “rabbanit”).

• LGBTQ Inclusion:

  • Ongoing struggle over student gay clubs at YU and in Modern Orthodox institutions.
  • Divergence between student/faculty inclinations and rabbinic authority.

  "Modern Orthodoxy became open towards a greater role for women... Now, even within more traditional Orthodox communities, women are given a greater role, if not in ritual, then in management of the synagogue." (40:05) "This [LGBTQ inclusion] remains very much up in the air. And I'm sure as time goes on, we're going to see more and more developments." (41:46)

Future Trends and Israel (42:19)

• Contested Zionism:

  • Recent Gaza war exposed divergences within Orthodox responses.
  • Emergence of left-leaning "Smol Emuni" Orthodox voices, publicly critical of Israeli military policy—received backlash from mainstream.
  • Expect the Israel relationship to remain a locus of intra-Orthodox debate and identity shaping.

  “I think that the whole role of Israel is going to become more and more a subject of discussion in Orthodox circles, of course, depending upon how this [war] plays itself out.” (45:18)

• Comparison to Israel:

  • American and Israeli Modern Orthodoxy shaped by different issues: American focus is on balancing secularity vs. traditionalism; in Israel, the intersection of Halacha and statehood is central.

  “Israeli Modern Orthodoxy, which is basically religious Zionism, their modernity is very much taken up with how do you adjust halachic Judaism to the needs of a Jewish state...We don't have this in the United States.” (47:31)

  • Cross-pollination is accelerating via gap years, digital culture, and intellectual exchange (e.g., influence of Israeli figures like Tamar Ross, Rav Shagar).

Notable Quotes and Moments

• On modernity and tradition:

  “This is a book that not only records history, but challenges us to think deeply about questions of how modernity and tradition intersect, exploring the delicate dance that we have to both the past and the present moment.” — Rabbi Mark Katz (02:30)

• On family resemblance (Orthodox identities):

  “What they have in common… is a desire, a need to live a structured halachic life, to do all of the things you're supposed to do, whatever your theological preference is.” — Lawrence Grossman (31:04)

• On Israel’s impact on the Orthodox discourse:

  “...the whole role of Israel is going to become more and more a subject of discussion in Orthodox circles, of course, depending upon how this [the war] plays itself out…” — Lawrence Grossman (45:18)

• On transformation of Yeshiva University:

  “Torah and business, that's the way to make it in America. And it's a very different institution than it was when I was there.” — Lawrence Grossman (26:18)

• On innovation in women’s religious leadership:

  “...when women are being ordained and are acting as rabbis, some of them, they don't use the word rabbi. They call themselves maharat or rabbanit or whatever is in Israel...” — Lawrence Grossman (40:45)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 03:27 — Grossman introduces his background and motivation for the book
• 06:11 — Demographics, major institutions, and leaders in Modern Orthodoxy
• 11:29 — Historical blurring and subsequent divergence from Conservative Judaism
• 16:24 — The rightward shift: case studies from music/dancing, dietary law, kollel
• 21:51 — Decline of Torah U'Madda ideal; shifting student culture at YU
• 23:39 — How YU’s internal culture became divided between Torah study and business careers
• 27:51 — Defining Modern Orthodoxy: centrist, open, social, philo Orthodox categories
• 32:41 — Modern Orthodox engagement with academic Bible scholarship
• 38:10 — Role of feminism and development of female leadership roles
• 41:01 — Controversies and divisions over LGBTQ inclusion at YU
• 42:37 — Forecasts for the future: Israel-centered divisions
• 47:20 — Differences between American and Israeli Modern Orthodoxy
• 50:01 — The Hartman Institute and moderate/post-denominational influence in Israel
• 52:14 — Grossman’s next project: writing the American Jewish Yearbook's annual communal affairs article

Tone and Style

The conversation is intellectually engaged, candid, and often reflective, with Grossman sharing both historical analysis and personal anecdotes. Rabbi Katz maintains a collegial, curious, and sometimes wry tone. Both show a deep love and critical engagement with the complexities of Modern Orthodoxy, and the discussion oscillates between scholarly commentary and lived experience.

Conclusion

Grossman’s book and this interview offer an indispensable account of Modern Orthodoxy’s evolution and ongoing tensions—between tradition and modernity, inclusion and distinctiveness, America and Israel. Through nuanced examples, historical analysis, and stories, listeners come away understanding both the resilience and the fluid borders of this unique Jewish movement—one that, as Grossman’s title suggests, continues to strive to live authentically in two worlds at once.