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welcome to
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the New Books Network
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welcome to the Language on the Move podcast, a channel on the New Books Network. My name is Bryn Quick and I'm a PhD candidate in linguistics at Macquarie University in Sydney, Australia. My guest today is Dr. Young Ju Lee. Young Ju is an academic in the Department of Linguistics and the School of Education at Macquarie University. Her research interests include digital language learning and teaching with a focus on digital literacy, multimodality, digital spaces, social media and AI. Today, Young Joo and I will be discussing her 2026 book, Social Media and Language Learning Using TikTok and Instagram, published by Routledge. Young Ju, welcome to the show and thank you so much for joining us today.
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Thank you.
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So at the very beginning of your book you write quote, this book explores language learners creative uses of social media for informal language learning that is not for formal, institution and instructional purposes, end quote. So talk to us about the difference between learning a language formally versus informally and what got you interested in studying this contrast.
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Formal learning is usually like the traditional concept of language learning, so usually classroom based, structured, curriculum based, and usually teacher led and assessment driven. Whereas informal language learning is self directed, everyday activities and it includes resources like social media, digital platforms like video games and VR and they are not usually designed to be used as teaching materials. So it's not designed for learning, it's for more for recreational social purposes. So actually everything started during COVID time when everybody was at home, right? So I just realized that everybody was doing like a lot of social media things. And then I think that was the time when TikTok kind of made a huge hit, huge success over the world. So people doing different trends all over the world that try to copy what other people do, right? So I just realized that people are doing a lot of creative content creation. And then at that time also I was interested in, okay, what's going on in TikTok and I started using it and I realized that, okay, there are a lot of language learning, learning going on, right? So I think at this point we have to define what learning is, but it's more like learning acquisition, like awareness of language use on TikTok or social media, right? So I just realized that people do engage language use on social media and they do exchange, so language exchange as well. And then people like to comment on there about their digital content, things like that. So I felt that, okay, so at that time, now it's a bit different time. At the time I felt like institutional spaces kind of shifted to everyday digital spaces and learners actually use and repurpose social media. They're not designed for language learning, for their own language learning spaces. And I observed interactions and participation of those users and I see that this is multimodal, this is multimodal communication. This is how people communicate in digital spaces and language use and learning can occur in that area. So that's how I started. That's how I started my PhD on social media, focusing on Instagram and TikTok. Try to approach to more younger generations
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B
with you talking about social media and especially TikTok during COVID I feel like that just gave me flashbacks that I kind of hadn't thought about in a while. Like, do you remember during the beginning of COVID when we would see people doing, you know, duets and people from all different parts of the world doing these like dance trends because they were all stuck inside. So you're right that that was really a time period where there was this huge boom of TikTok and this huge shift into the digital world because we kind of had to shift into the digital world.
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But it's a bit different time now that we don't have to shift into the digital time because Covid is not around anymore. So. But Then I think ever since that like people kind of learned that we can use digital spaces more actively. So now I realize that learners, they use social media within their daily lives, so it's embedded within their lives. So social media use and learning through social media are embedded within their lives.
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Well, and that brings me to my next question because when about learning another language, we often discuss the idea of this word, affordances. So in our sphere, an affordance is essentially how a particular language learning tactic allows or doesn't allow us to learn. So what did you find are the affordances of language learning on these social media platforms like Instagram and TikTok? And how do these affordances differ from affordances offered by a more traditional classroom learning environment?
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So affordances refer to what technologies enable or promote learners to do and social media affordances. For example, we have multimodality that we can use text, video, audio, images. We have also instant access. So we have like search features or algorithmic discovery. We just open the phone, right? And then we just scroll down and it's immediate.
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It's immediate.
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Like we don't even have to actually do anything. So like as if like social media actually have prepared something for us, right? And then once you start searching something like algorithm just starts working, right? So it's all like depending on how you design your language learning spaces. So if you search like let's say Korean, then algorithm will show you Korean content. And there's interaction, there's like comments and feedback, people share and it's all global participation, everyone in the globe. But the differences between TikTok and Instagram that I've realized that like it depends on how people use them. So TikTok for example, when it comes to language learning, people often use it for pronunciation or speaking practice because it's a short form, videos, that's how the videos can demonstrate. Instagram people often use it for grammar, explanation, vocabulary, visual explanations and like using the carousel learning post where there you can post many images in one post. But then actually Instagram does have video sharing format as well. So it's, it's quite different ways of interpreting the social media platform use. So I think it's when it comes to affordances, technologies are there, features are there. It depends on the users, how they perceive them, how they act upon them. So because even, even the technologies and features are there if you don't recognize them, if you don't utilize them for your own ways, they are just there and you, you don't get to use them compared to classroom. So classroom I Believe it's more structured. However it may have a bit limited interactional patterns unless teachers intentionally put some engaging activities. But there are some limit depending on the classroom size. Especially if it's a large class. It's quite limited when it comes to organizing engaging activities. However, social media as we said, it's spontaneous, it's very immediate and it's very learner driven, like user driven. Right. So you can actually design your social media platform in a way that you want. So your TikTok and your TikTok main page might be different from my TikTok main page. Right. So depending on you. And it's very multimodal learning. So you can use videos, images, text and anything just very multimodally and actively engaging with such multimodal elements.
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And do you think that it's that multimodality that maybe a traditional classroom is lacking in?
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I guess that it's more. I think there is a multimodality within the classroom of traditional classroom as well. Like for example like teacher talking, students talking with peers and group activities maybe like they have like fun activities like roam around the classroom as well. However, social media I think it's a bit in a different way. So it has a bit of less pressure and less organized. Less organized and less teacher led. So it's depending on the learner. I guess that learner can actually decide the degree of multimodality as well. So if they want to include more, if they want to include less, it depends on them.
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B
And that's a good point that these learners, because of these affordances, they maybe have a bit more agency than they would in a traditional classroom. And, and this is a big theme that you identified in your data was that language learners really appreciated this ability to have more agency through learning via Instagram and TikTok. So why do you think learners sense of agency was so important to your participants but to learners in general? And how did these social media platforms allow for this agency in ways that other learning methods might not?
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Learner agency is learners control or manage their learning and it's up to the learners learners motivation. So like motivation, autonomy, personalized learning path, that's all important for agency, right? But I guess that for my participants, for my participants like they were really interested in learning, learning English. They wanted to improve their English to leaving Australia to survive in Australia. So their agency was really strong. Their agency was really strong. So they started following language creators and they started saving useful posts and they replay videos and they tried to like copy and mimic what the other Australians actually sound and they tried to create their own content. But this case is for those who have strong agency. But that's the point of using social media, because social media are not designed for learning. So people mostly use social media for their social and recreational purposes. For those who don't want to use social media, they can't use social media because it's not designed for learning. So you must actually exercise your agency to utilize affordances and feature opportunities in social media. And I guess in general, agency is important in like, not just social media, but in just general in your learning. Right. Because like, motivated students usually have a higher level of proficiency or performance and it's motivation and confidence and it's kind of drives your learning all the way because it's a lifelong journey. Right. So it's the agency that initiate your learning and then it's the agency that make you continue your learning. So agency is important, I guess, in general, not just about social media.
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B
I kind of want to go back to something that you mentioned before, which was, and you just talked about the idea of confidence in a learner, and a few questions ago, you had mentioned something about learners maybe not feeling as much pressure when they're learning English or language through something like social media. Do you think that, because I honestly hadn't really thought about that before, that people would potentially feel that intense scrutiny or that pressure in a classroom, traditional classroom environment, and that maybe learning through something like TikTok or Instagram is less pressure because you're. You're on your own. Like you said, you are creating your own algorithm. You're seeing what you want to see. Do you feel like the idea of a learner having less pressure on them is something that drew your participants to social media?
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Yeah. So I think one of my participants might be very good example for this. He emphasized that he's very introverted person. It's his word. So he said, I'm very introverted person. I don't know what to do. Because that was probably just one month or two months after he arrived in Australia. Oh, wow. And he said he's very introverted. He doesn't know how to approach people. He doesn't know how to like explore Australia. But he really was motivated to improve his English. Right. He really was motivated to leave and stay in Australia. However, he got so much pressured and so much stress, like in the classroom. Nothing wrong with teachers or peers. It's just a pressure that's giving him that you have to perform well. Because he's also. He also mentioned that he's from a country and culture where making mistake is mistakes is not really allowed. And then I told him, have you ever used TikTok or Instagram, like social media? Like just do whatever you want. Like I didn't really ask him what to do either. And then he just explored and he came back to me. This is crazy. This is amazing because he started following this Australian creator and just picked up these daily life expressions. Daily life expressions, like feeling like I feel under the weather for example. Those expressions he never had come across before. And then like he just, I think one week, two weeks, he's just using, he was just using the social media just by himself, just scrolling down, looking into the content and maybe picked up some vocabulary and expressions. And then one day he felt that maybe, maybe I'm confident enough to say a word. And then he used those expressions with his peers in the classroom, with his teacher and maybe, and then also he just went to like a restaurant or a cafe and then tried to like use expressions that he learned from the prank videos and like fun videos on TikTok. And then he, he said this gave me so much confidence. That's how, that's the one good example of using social media. And I think people may think about the intellectual depth when it comes to social media. Maybe it's a surface level Lear. Oh maybe, maybe for some learners, yes, because it's very short form video platform. But for learners who actually are in need of those level of learning that works. And I think intellectual depth also depends on how you actually use those content. Do you maybe just scroll down those content and just like just consume it? Or do you actually maybe try to listen to it and then try to listen to it again and again, try to maybe copy the pronoun, pronunciation or accent. You maybe search in like Google Dictionary or ChatGPT to look for other definitions or examples that like, maybe even, even like practical examples that you might be using in your daily life. So that's the intellectual depth. So the learning in digital space, in digital space it doesn't end in one space. It's cross platform language learning and it's the connection between digital and physical spaces. So you Maybe pick up one vocabular your expression from TikTok and that may end of your learning. And we can kind of criticize where is intellectual. That's where what's learning is it actually learning. However, for those students who have a strong agency, strong motivation, that person might explore the definition in Google Dictionary as for examples in the, in the Wikipedia for example, or maybe even go to like ChatGPT and then say can you maybe give some examples that or situations that I can use the expressions or maybe can we do role play with the Voice feature with ChatGPT? So that's the. Where we can discuss about, discuss the intellectual depth of using different digital spaces.
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Well, and it's a really good point that not every language lesson needs to have, you know, intellectual depth because that's
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also a good point because it's just
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as important, like you were saying, for a learner to gain enough everyday phrases and words that they feel comfortable enough to go, you know, approach people in a shop, in a cafe, whatever, and start to use the language. And then little by little they'll get more and more and more confident and then they can go into more, you know, quote unquote intellectual depth.
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That's right. So like I think there was a time people were really interested in use using gaming or music and maybe even play some movies in the classroom. That was all for that. That was all for fun activities to make students be interested in more and more, be confident, be motivated so that when students have motivation and confidence, they can do something else. That's the all the sparks.
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B
Some of the. Because my second language is Spanish and so some of the phrases in Spanish that I remember, remember most are from when I learned them by watching a movie in class, you know, or by listening to a song in class. So you're right that, that videos on social media, any type of social media can encourage our learners. And that's what every teacher wants anyway, for the learners to feel encouraged. And another theme that emerged from your data was the idea of transnational collaboration while learning, which I thought was so interesting, especially this case while learning English. So in the book you describe how the comment sections of language related posts would be full of learners from all over the world asking questions and seeking feedback. Why do you think this participatory element is so important to language learners who are reacting in the comment sections?
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In traditional classroom learning, it's important to participate. So teacher and students, it's two ways. So teacher may deliver the knowledge, but it's the students of the students who participate try to transfer that knowledge into their own. Right. So that's what's happening TikTok as well. So maybe one creator post con like multimodal content in their post and then other people comment on their section. Maybe those people just like, maybe they didn't have to to like they could just scroll down and move, move on. Right. But they instead comment which means that there was A curiosity, there was interest, there was a little bit of motivation of learning more further. Right. So it's very global interaction spaces and all the people, all the speakers of different languages, they gather in one space. So it's a multilingual communication, people from different countries and they also interested thing is like when someone posts, they also like to comment each other. So commenters, they like to comment each other and then they like to solve the problem together. So maybe one person ask a question but then other commenter actually answer that. So it's very interesting dynamics in the comment section. And also they like to ask for clarification of pronunciation, vocabulary. So is that how you say is this correct? Can I use this expression in this situation? Things like, is it a bit rude or is it appropriate to use in my work context? Things like this. They like to have a clarification. So learning in social media is on your own. So there is no teacher. Right. That's why I think they seek for clarification like am I understanding correctly? Can I use this in my life? So that's what was happening in comments. And I think like TikTok just interesting, for example, like it has its own feature of promoting interaction, like Duet, for example. So it actually made a feature called Duet, encouraging users to respond to another person's post directly just by clicking one icon. So this platform is actually designed to interact and while interacting we learn, we
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absolutely learn through interacting.
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And that's the same for classroom as well.
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Well, and that I think is a really good point because I've taught English before and I think any language teacher especially knows that in a classroom because I taught adults in a classroom, you're going to have some students who are so ready to participate and are so ready to, to speak. They're ready to go up to the whiteboard, you know, with a whiteboard marker, and they're ready to make mistakes in front of you, the teacher, and also their, their classroom peers. But like you said, there are also going to be students in the classroom who are not okay with making a mistake in front of other people. And they don't necessarily want to ask a question that they really want to know the answer to because they're afraid of maybe looking foolish or being wrong. And so that's why I thought that the point that you made about the comments section is so important because that's almost a way for those students who feel a bit too nervous to make these mistakes in class to seek clarification, to ask questions and to be able to get their questions answered.
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So like I think for classroom, it depends on how the lesson is designed. Of course. Like teachers will look into individuals learning needs and interest. It's really hard for teachers and for students as well to make the classroom that satisfies everyone, everyone's needs. Right. So there, there will be people who are very motivated, like they're very outgoing, they like to participate, ask questions. There are also like students who are a bit less, less motivated in doing
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in that and they're maybe more introverted.
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C
That's right. But then good thing about social media or any other digital space that you can use on your own is you can do on your own, at your pace, whatever you want and with a
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little bit more anonymity as well.
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If you're more active actually you might create your own content, but if you're less active you might just, you don't create your own content, but you rather look at other people's content and maybe comment there and go to other platforms like, like Dictionary, Google Dictionary or AI just to explore your own ways of learning. It depends on individuals. Yes, that's right, you've got your choice.
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B
Exactly. And so on that in chapter four of the book you write, quote, students frequently used the search feature on Instagram and TikTok to quickly find linguistic information on new words and expressions they encountered in real life interactions. This helped them to overcome language barriers and to build confidence to use new vocabulary while engaging in in place interactions. End quote. So kind of what we were just talking about and I think that anyone who has tried to learn a new language knows this feeling of encountering words and phrases in the wild and like wanting to know their meanings and usages right away. And 4,000 years ago, back in my day when I was learning Spanish, all I had access to were paper dictionaries like no, no phones with Internet yet. So I had to really ask Spanish speakers to define new words and phrases for me when I heard them. And like we were just talking about this meant having to overcome feeling embarrassed about how much I didn't know and I had to be okay with making lots of mistakes in front of people. And so kind of what we were just saying, I think that you described these learners appreciating some of the learners appreciating the ability to be more anonymous about their language questions. And did they find that they didn't really have to ask people for clarification because they could just find their answers online? And if they did like being anonymous in this social media space, what might that mean for language teachers and learners? Who are in traditional classrooms.
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C
Actually my participant, their main purpose was using social media or any kinds of resources to assist their language learning. They want to use them in real life. That was the purpose. Their purpose is I want to improve my English so I can speak with my friends and I speak with teachers and speak with Australians in Australia to stay and live in Australia. So they didn't like, I think none of them actually wanted to just stay within digital spaces. So I like I said like now we live in a world where digital and phys physical spaces are just interconnected. They are intertwined. It's not just like we already have long past the time when we had to open the laptop to access the digital space. We live in digital space. Yeah, it's, it's, it's connected, it's intertwined. So they, when they hear some like words that they were confusing, they just open their phone and then just search something and then they would get definitions and examples. And the one good thing about social media is it's very quick. So you could just like see how it's actually used in their practical in real life and then when you actually encounter such real life in your life, you can use that. So that's how they use search feature for seeking for clarification of what they encounter in their life and then actually the interaction happens vice versa. So they see something on social media and then they try to use that in their daily life as well. But obviously like I said, social media is not designed for learning, it's not designed for education, it's not also designed for language learning. Right. So when it comes to the social media content, is it accurate? It like accuracy. It's also up to users. Right. So like I said, some of my participants, they would explore different platforms like including Google Dictionary or ChatGPT and some of them actually ask teachers for clarification as well ask peers for discussion of, to seek for clarification. All these like a learning process. Right. But social media account, they definitely need the clarification of accuracy because designed for recreational purpose. So some of the content might be leading to inaccurate use of language. So in such cases, yes, they need to actually one of my participants very interest. I, I found it very cute but I think it was very stressful situation for her. She saw this TikTok video and then she learned that you have to say chill, chill to calm down the situation when everybody was a bit like, you know.
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B
But that's very informal.
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C
Yeah, that's very informal because that's what's happening. Right? Social Media, Right. So it's informal language use and conversational language use. However, she, okay, she learned that and then she used it to her teacher when she, her teacher was a bit upset and then teacher was apparently mad. Right. But however, teacher, she explained that during the lunch break and oh, this is how I learned. And maybe it was a bit inappropriate. And then teacher actually had a further explanation of how a chill should be used and what's the alternative expression that she could use in the classroom. And she told me that it was a bit stressful, but she also told me that after a week or so she kind of thought of it and then she realized that that's her learning, right? Yes, right. And she now realized that, that something that she's seen in social media, maybe she would look for more research, more explanations or examples. So she learned that, okay, social media is really good because it's giving me different expressions and vocabulary that I can use in my life because it's very informal, very conversational and communicative. It's very useful. However, maybe those are the expressions that I might use with my friends more. And if anything that I'm not not clear, I can use other digital resources and even I can ask my teacher for clarification. That whole learning process, how amazing is that, right? That she realized that experience.
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B
And, and you're right that that is a lesson in and of itself. That is language learning in and of itself. You know, I mean, any of us who have learned another language, we've all made those mistakes before.
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C
And also she mentioned that, okay, that's the one way of using the social media TikTok that is made in daily lives. But she also found that there are some teachers on social media, there are some teachers who upload teaching content which is more appropriate because those teachers intentionally make that social media account and intentionally upload teaching account to teach and deliver the knowledge to students. So she follows some of the Australian English teachers and learned the more formal ways of language use as well. So there are different ways of using social media.
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B
And that means, like you said, that it's up to each individual learner to check and to seek clarification. And you mentioned a little bit about, you know, ChatGPT as well, and how the learners have to check to make sure that what ChatGPT is saying is correct.
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C
Because.
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B
Because we know that it is not always correct.
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C
We're talking about social media platforms, so maybe we focus on learning from social media, but there are people who learn from AI first. So maybe ChatGPT might be the first place where they access the knowledge. And are you like dual students? Will they stop there or will they continue to explore further?
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B
That brings me to my last question for you. Where do you see the future of language learning and teaching headed in this age of learning through social media or AI or you know, these other digital ways of learning?
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C
So I think we live in a digital era with the AI as well. I think we're at the time that we can't really avoid. But as teachers we guide students to use them effectively, ethically and more appropriately. I think that's our job because even if we say don't use AI for these, all these plot points, right? And use AI only for all these platform points and saying goes to social media, we actually don't know whether students follow our instruction or not. So we try to guide them to use them more effective way, an ethical way. And instead of telling them what to do and what not to do, we actually try to include activities in using such technologies within our classroom. And so that students actually get exposed to effective and ethical ways of using. Students have more experience, more and more of using it more ethical way. Students will learn how to use ethical way because giving them the list of what to do and what not to do, that's not enough anymore. And that's same for social media and AI as well. That's what we have to do in our education as teachers. Also, when it comes to social media ban in Australia, social media is banned for our children. For our children. My point of like my whole, this entire work, including this book, it's not about promoting the social media platforms but it's about recognizing the realities of learners, the digital era that we live in and try to engage with them critically and ethically. For the primary classroom, for example, we would get the idea, take the idea of multimodal content and bring that into the classroom. It's not like teachers or students have to make Instagram account or TikTok account. It's not like they have to interact with inst. That platforms, we got the idea from these platforms and we, we take advantage from that idea to make our classroom more engaging and more, more multimodal. So that's, that's the whole point of this work. And I think same goes to AI as well.
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B
I like that final thought of, you know, take what is good, take what learners seem to really be responding to, which is that, that multimodality, potentially that anonymity, you know, for the people who feel more introverted or scared, you know, and making sure that teachers in real classroom environments know about these things that learners want as well because then the teachers can bring those lessons into their classrooms and like you said, tailor their lessons more for, for these students.
- [35:29]
C
So instead of of like downloading TikTok or Instagram, because we've already got the idea from those platforms that maybe like just a group of students, like they would film their own videos in like playground, in like corner of the classroom. And maybe like corner of the classroom can be like flower shop, cafe. And then they would like the role play of barista and customer, like try to order coffee. And that's the practice of ordering coffee in English, for example. So you can kind of mimic the environment of the digital platforms in your classroom, in your school. It can be outside in the playground as well. You can do something fun for engaging for students and that can be fun and engaging at the same time. Educational as well.
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B
Excellent. Well, thank you so much again, youngjoo. Thank you for speaking to us today.
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C
Thank you very much for having me
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B
and thank you for listening everyone. If you liked listening to our chat today, please subscribe to the Language on the Move podcast. Leave a five star review on your podcast app of choice and recommend the Language on the Move podcast and our partner, the New Books Network to your students, colleagues and friends. Till next time,