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Lesley Nicole Braun, "Congo's Dancers: Women and Work in Kinshasa" (U Wisconsin Press, 2023)
00:47:06
An interview with Lesley Nicole Braun
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- [00:00]
A
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- [01:07]
B
Hello everyone, and welcome to New Books Network. My name is Suvi Rautio and I'm one of the hosts of the show. On the podcast today, we are joined by a research associate hosted at the Institute for Social Anthropology at the University of Basel and principal investigator on a Swiss national foundation grant, Professor Leslie Nicole Brown. Leslie is joining me to talk about her book, Congo's Women and Work in Kinshasa, published in 2023, just a couple of months ago by University of Wisconsin Press. In Congo's Dancers, Leslie Nicole Brown uses the prism of female Congolese professional concert dancers to examine the politics of control and the ways in which notions of visibility, virtue, and social economic opportunity or intellect. The concert dancer exemplifies the challenges that women face in Kinshasa as they navigate the public sphere to shed light on the gender differences of local patronage politics that shape public morality. The book is full of rich ethnographic details that dances across the page, linking theoretical conversations that will be of interest to academics working in African studies and dance. In addition to readers who want to learn more about the importance of female agency in Africa's urban settings, today I will be discussing Congo's dancers in more detail with Leslie, who have the pleasure of joining me on the show today. Leslie, thank you so much for joining Me.
- [02:36]
C
Thanks for having me. I'm really thrilled to be here, and it's a great pleasure to be able to share this book with you and your listeners. So thank you.
- [02:44]
B
I've thoroughly enjoyed your work, and I'm really excited to talk about it in more detail. Before we delve into the chapters, I wanted to ask you about what led you to Kinshasa? As an ethnographer, you had unusual access to the world. You documented having been invited to participate as a concert dancer yourself. What led you to this world, and what inspired you to study dance and dancers in Congo?
- [03:08]
C
Thanks for that question. I think I wanted to begin with how the history of how Congolese rumba music was created and how it then circulated, because it's a really fascinating narrative, and it's one that I think first really inspired me and inspired me to sort of delve into this rich musical world of dance and music. So it all began with this movement of people. It's a forced migration when slaves from Central Africa were transported to the New World. And I think we're all familiar with this. They were loaded onto ships, and they were brought to places like Cuba. And individuals brought with them their own rhythms and traditions from their homelands. And over time, like in the New World, the fusion of African musical elements and local influences gave birth to what we know today as Cuban rumba music. And the key turning point in this musical journey was also the advent of new technology, specifically the production and the dissemination of vinyl records. So, you know, records were being recorded of Cuban ruma music, and they began to spread worldwide. And, you know, like, people in New York City, the 1930s and 40s, were dancing to the rhythms of Cuban rumba music. And then what's particularly intriguing is that the role that Greek merchants and sailors played in the spreading of this music. And so sailors voyaged to Central Africa, and they brought with them, you know, these vinyl records that they had bought in Cuba of Cuban rumba music. And during the interactions in ports when, you know, goods were loaded on and off boats, the magic of these records was shared and they were played. And when Congolese listeners working on the. In the ports, when they listened to this music, you know, and they inquired about it, where does this music come from? They were told that it was from far away, it was a place, Cuba, and that this was Cuban rumba. But when the Congolese listeners, you know, we're listening, they recognized themselves in the music, and they recognized that there were certain elements that came from, you know, ancestral traditions. And it was this recognition that led to the birth of what we call today Congolese rumba music. So it's sort of this perfect circle of influences, and it really is a nice reminder about how, you know, culture works and how culture is created. It's never out of a vacuum. It's always out of encounter. And, you know, Congolese rumba then, in turn, went on to have a really profound influence on the entire African continent. And it played a pivotal role during the decolonization era with songs like Independence, Cha Cha Cha, which really became an anthem of the time. And dance was an integral part of this musical culture, and it remains so today. And, of course, it's gone. You know, the music has gone through so many different iterations since that time, or, you know, as people refer to it as generations, generations of music. And so it's not surprising that, like, the music that we hear today, Congolese rumba is different from the stuff that you hear from that golden era in the 1930s. And I think it's this intricate journey of music and dance through history and time that has been my inspiration to explore the world of dance and dancers in Congo. And, you know, I think it's a really captivating story that reveals, like, deep connections between music and dance and the history of the region. And so I realized then that, like, you know, dance was such a pivotal role. It plays a pivotal role in people's lives, and it was not just an art form, but it's sort of a means of communication, and it's also an embodied historical archive and also, like, a really powerful form of expression. And so this was something that was, you know, the driving force in my. In my research at the time.
- [07:22]
B
I love that. And it really kind of captures the whole essence of the book, which is you start the book with the following sentence. Dance is at the heart of sociability in Kinshasa. So this is exactly what you were talking about. Could you talk a bit more about the social element to music and dance and urban DRC today and the role that women play play in it?
- [07:46]
C
Right, yeah.
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B
So.
- [07:47]
C
So Congolese music and dance have evolved to be at the sort of the heart of sociability in Kinshasa and other places, other urban spaces especially. And this is Kinshasa is a capital city. It's home to some 14 million people. I mean, it's a mega city, and it's renowned internationally for its virtuosic musicians and its dancers. And the city itself has given birth to internationally famous bands like Wehrasson, Kofiolomide, Falii, Pupa. And these concert bands frequently tour and they travel and they fill stadiums, not just in Africa, but further abroad. And one striking characteristic of popular concert bands is their size. So these ensembles can be really quite large, sometimes like more than 20 members. And they're typically composed of singers and musicians and dancers. And dancers especially, really create this, like, energetic spectacle that is really relied upon for attracting a paying audience. And women, despite not necessarily being primary singers or musicians, though there's a lot more exceptions now, there are some exceptions to that. Women are really central to this musical form through their roles as professional dancers or danseus. And these young women who are hired to dance and ban, shape the identity of music and play a pivotal role in society at large in terms of pop culture. And that's of course, just. That's popular concert dancing. But of course, dance is so central to other social events, like from religious gatherings, funerals and wakes, political events, to festive celebrations like birthday parties. And so women's roles in dance go beyond just mere entertainment. It's really sort of like, you know, becomes a means of self expression, identity. And through dance, you know, people can communicate, you know, cultural and social and personal narratives as well as transmitting histories. And, you know, what I learned was that dance and Contrasta really serves as a kind of kinetic archive, preserving not just rhythms and movements, but also memories of significant political events, you know, and like, you know, when you talk to people, people can vividly recall specific historic moments and link them to dances that were performed at that particular time. So, for instance, like, it's not uncommon to hear people tell stories, especially older people, about how they danced the ndongbolo in a particular way when the former president Kabila made his entrance into the country, like in a coup d'. Etat. So it has like sort of like a vivid, you know, poignant memorializing effect, I would say.
- [10:48]
B
And chapter one really delves into more detail around the role that dance plays in Congo's modern history. You discuss the historical underpinnings that have shaped contemporary gender dynamics in Kinshasa through dance. And in this chapter, you frame it around three temporal contexts. You look at Congo's modern history and dance through early colonial period, when nightlife, a new popular musical genres emerged. You also look at how post colonial nation building, in which women in dance were instrumental to new political stakeholders, unfolded. And lastly, you look at dance and women's role in it through contemporary Pentecostalism. What I found particularly interesting about this chapter is how you locate the emergence of post 1945 African city life and Its music as a point of departure to analyze the ways in which feminine visibility is constructed and negotiated. And this is kind of what your whole book traces. And it's just, it's fantastic. In each of these historical time periods, in this particular chapter, you show how dance has become a particular fraught terrain in which morality, virtue and power come into play. And at the same time, you look at how dance is a political tool that authoritative figures affix to its citizens to co opt its potency. In the context of your fieldwork, what is its potency? And why is dance so appealing to men with power?
- [12:15]
C
Thanks for that question. I think the energy and the life force that are inherent in dance have historically been instrumentalized in a lot of different places, even outside of the Congo, for different ways to achieve different ends. And dance is also, it's played a pivotal role in nation building projects worldwide. So I think some of us can sort of intuitively glean the application in that regard. But in the case of Congo, dance occupies a really unique and interesting position in the country's history and culture. And I talked a little bit about Congolese rumba and how that evolved. But if we go back even to the colonial era, this brutal era where the Belgians dominated and were colonizing and introducing new ideas, Belgian missionaries in particular, stigmatized dance. And they viewed it as something vulgar and immoral and really incompatible with these European values that they were trying to impose on people. But however, you know, and that also, by the way, has like a really interesting history. And there's a lot of interesting, like, history that's, you know, that has been done around that idea. But if we look at later on, you know, when the landscape started to shift and change during Congo's independence, this is in the 1960s, following especially the tumultuous period when Patrice Lumumba, the country's first prime minister, was tragically murdered. Mobutu Sese Seko, who subsequently took over and who ruled the country for over three decades, sought to reclaim dance and reclaim it from what the Belgians had done to it. And he wanted to revalorize it and give it a new place in society. And he, he elevated dance to something that he proposed was integral to his, quote, authenticity project. So it was a project that he introduced that he called automaticite or authenticity. And his, his main aim was to assert the unique cultural identity of the Congolese people in the post colonial era. And like a lot of, you know, presidents at the time, he was trying to also bring people together, people who came from really, really Diverse backgrounds. I mean, you know, Congo is the size of Western Europe. It's massive. And it's home to some, you know, 250 linguistic groups, ethnic groups. I mean, it's like, it's incredibly big. And so, you know, within this framework of statecraft, which drew inspiration from other decolonization projects, such as Leopold Sengors in Senegal, Mobutu aimed to give women in particular, a visible and significant place within the state. And this was really a departure from the colonial era stigmatizing dance that we saw, you know. And in contrast, again, Mobutu sought to sort of recognize the vital role of women in Congolese society, both as preservers of tradition and active participants in the cultural renaissance that was part of the Authenticity Project. And so dance, when harnessed by those in power, like presidents and other people, dance really can serve as a means to unite and rally the population behind a specific vision or ideology. And in the case of Mobutu, dance became a symbol of Congolese identity.
- [15:58]
B
I liked how you continue on this topic in chapter two, titled Overlapping Tempos. But here you kind of position your ethnography in the current day and era, where you focus on the role that music and dance play in the lives of women and younger girls. And I just. I love this chapter for the ethnography that is illustrated on the pages. You show how dance. I mean, reading the book Dance just I can imagine the scene. I can hear the music. And you describe dance and social spaces where people come together, from dancing at home, to dancing with friends and family in concerts and clubs, to dancing in the church. And I particularly liked how you incorporate the importance of dance and in particular, dancing in front of the mirror. I love how you pay attention to the importance or the role that dance. Sorry, the role that the mirror plays in dancing and performance itself. And you yourself, as a dancer, you describe how you propped up a mirror against the television in your living room with your female friends so that you could imitate the dance sequences of music videos whilst at the same time seeing the reflection of yourselves dancing on the mirror. And this is just. This is. As anybody who dances as a hobby or to make a living knows this. Me, myself, I could very much relate to this. But what was even more fascinating is the role that mirrors play in clubs. And you have this fantastic ethnographic description of these clubs you were going to as mirrored spaces and the kind of hypnotic effect that people had when they were watching themselves dance to particular tunes. It was very. Sounds like it was actually. It wasn't always spontaneous. It was Very much choreographed. But what is it about? If you could. Sorry, Leslie. If you could tell us more about what Dancing in mirrors. Why is dancing in mirrors so profound? And what does it tell us about the moral dispositions that powerful institutions such as the Pentecostal Church impose on what they see as the profanity of dance?
- [18:11]
C
Thank you. Yeah, that's a big question. I guess, to begin to frame it all, maybe it's important to highlight that there's this. This ongoing struggle over dance between Christian Pentecostal churches, which are so omnipresent in the city's landscape, and concert bands in Kinshasa. And so it's this. This complex terrain of contestation between these sort of, you know, if you could sort of divide it up between two groups, the Pentecostals and sort of like, you know, the concert bands. And I would say that, you know, for. I guess, for Pentecostal churches, they're really known for their lively worship surfaces, and they've embraced dance as a form of spiritual expression, and they view it, in a way, as connecting with God and praising God. And in this context, dancing is considered sanctified and virtuous, and it's really an integral part of religious gatherings, and it's seen as a means of channeling one's devotion and spirituality. On the other hand, concert bands, which are often associated with more secular, profane music and entertainment, also, of course, incorporate dance as essential, as an essential element in their performances. And so as a consequence, I mean, churches have demonized the dance associated with these bands, and they consider it as moral, especially when it involves women and professional women, you know, dancing in particular, in costumes, on stage for money. And so it really highlights a broader debate over the role of dance in society as well as. As gender dynamics and the changing roles of. Of gender dynamics. And so maybe it's not so much the mirrors themselves that churches take issue with when it comes to. When it comes to dance, but it's sort of the moral dispositions that these churches impose on what they see as profanity in dance that are often rooted in maybe what they see as a source and a context of the dance movements themselves. And so dance moves acquired from televised performances, like the shows that my friends and I would watch at night and try to mimic, they may be perceived as, you know, problematic because they're often. They're associated with these. With. With, you know, secular, maybe more dubious movement practices that can be seen as sort of conflicting with religious or moral values. But what's really interesting is that even if there's this overlap in choreographies. Maybe it'd be a same movement sequence, the same sequence if it's done on stage or in church. Even if it's the same choreography, the dance itself transforms and is actually a different dance, which highlights this idea that context is so fundamental in terms of, you know, shaping the moral attitude about the dance itself.
- [21:13]
B
Yeah, absolutely. And I just wanted to add on it was particular. I mean, as an ethnographer, as an anthropologist, I think you can only come to understand these differences or these overlaps, but also the kind of the moral virtues that are imposed on dance by yourself becoming a dancer and dancing these spaces. Because, again, what I enjoyed so much about your description around the role of the mirror was that you. You yourself as a dancer was able to understand that dancing in front of a mirror is not seductive, or not only seductive, it's also reaffirming. And I think it's very easy as. As a researcher or somebody who might study these, you know, similar kind of art forms but not participate in it. It would be easy to use that kind of moral. Repeat that same moral stance and kind of keep a distance from dancing in front of clubs, for example, in front of a mirror. To thereby claim that dancing in church is maybe the more moral performance, but also one that emphasizes community over solo fame and fortune.
- [22:26]
C
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that, I guess that was one thing that maybe I didn't exemplify, really, is that dance was really my method. So it's really dance as method. And it was, you know, of course, the cornerstone of anthropology, where we're participant observers. And so it was really like my implication as a dancer, my role as a dancer in various spaces, including concerts, you know, where I was hired to dance. But as a reserved dancer, I wasn't. I wasn't good enough to be with the real ones. But. And so it was only really through that experience and that participation that I was able to glean some of these experiences and vulnerabilities that were shared by. By. By the people that I was. That I was getting close to and building rapport with. So, like, in that regard, I think dance is a really powerful method in terms of. Yeah, building rapport with people. You're sweating, you're working with people, and you're gaining trust that way. But then you're also, you know, experiencing there's a kind of embodied. Embodied knowledge that arrives with, you know, like, learning by doing so. That was absolutely fundamental to this project and to this book, for that matter.
- [23:37]
B
Absolutely. And again, Leslie, you're being modest about your role as a dancer because even if you might have been reserved dancer, you were still there in rehearsals, you were there backstage, you had a completely different angle of what was happening in the dancers lives. Not just when they're performing, but of course being able to enter their everyday lives on a much more intimate level. But if we move on to the next chapter titled Dance formation here as well, your very role as an anthropologist is crucial because what I found so fascinating is that you describe how choreographies in concert dances, even though the dancers themselves might be women, the choreographies are designed by men. So here what you describe in the chapter is how these choreographies designed by men also have the intention of entertaining the crowd and capturing the male gaze. And again, this chapter is, is rich with ethnography that really looks at where this gaze is going when the women are on stage. You focus on female concert dancers while she performs. But could you tell us a bit more about some of the trajectories that women in Congo go through to become a dancer with a popular band?
- [24:55]
C
Right, so dancers with popular bands are not just like ordinary dancers. They must, you know, demonstrate a really high level of skill and talent. And I think becoming a dancer with a popular band is also a path that many women coming from maybe economically disenfranchised backgrounds aspire to. And the life of a dancer can be really, really physically demanding. You know, they endure extremely taxing rehearsal schedules, they perform late into the night at concerts and they often have to travel and go on tour with the band. And so this is a really rigorous lifestyle that's phys, Physically demanding and also mentally challenged. And it's not well remunerated. So it's kind of interesting and intriguing as to why people would then, you know, sign themselves up to do this. But maybe it's also perhaps like explaining also why that with women, women who are inclined dancers, you know, who exhibit a level of skill or are perhaps you know, more motivated to join the band because maybe they have nothing really to lose. This is like their one shot and gaining some sort of like social and economic mobility, there's a, there's a promise for that. And so yeah, to become a dancer with a band you, you have to really like, you know, work very, very hard. And I would say that the length and success of a dancer's career really depends on the popular, the popularity of the band. So super famous bands like or Coffee Alumide, you know, like they have like huge, you know, Sales and they pack stadiums and so on. You know, of course they're gon. They're going to provide stability and contribute to the longevity of a dancer's overall career. And so with such bands like a dancer can, can dance for up to 10 years, if not more. You know, another, another thing that I perhaps alluded to is that success is, well, it's close. It's tied to the band's popularity. And the opportunity to migrate abroad is also like an aspiration and something that is in particular appealing to women who, who are joining bands. Perhaps. So many dancers view touring with their bands as a kind of like potential means of, of escape, escaping, you know, the challenges of living in, in the DRC to build new lives elsewhere. And. And many women who become dancers, you know, like there's this hope that they're going to go abroad to Europe and to North Americ. This can then open new doors of opportunity and a lot of women actually seize the opportunity and they defect from their bands once on tour.
- [27:45]
B
And.
- [27:47]
C
This is a risky move to be sure. It often means leaving the support of your band, also your family, to search for sort of like a new life abroad. But nevertheless there's this understanding that if you go on tour there's this, there might be a possibility of then, you know, about leaving and starting a new life somewhere else.
- [28:09]
B
Yeah, absolutely. And that definitely comes, comes through in the chapter itself. While you also describe through your interviews with male band leaders, kind of this relationship, the fictit, what you described as the kind of fictive kinship networks that are built, which was really fascinating. I don't know if I would have been able to imagine that whole, you know, just how crucial those networks are. In chapter four. In the next chapter, you elaborate on concepts that are crucial to an understanding of how female virtue was constructed and perceived in Kinshasa. The chapter traces the symbolic role that Mami Wata plays in Congo. Can you tell us a bit more about Mami Wata? My understanding is it's a water spit spirit that's venerated in west central and south of Southern Africa in addition to the Afro American diaspora. But what did Mami Mwata teach you about how female virtue is constructed and perceived in Kinshasa?
- [29:06]
C
Yeah. So like you, you bring up Mami Wata is, is. She's an iconic figure that circulates, circulates in so many different African contexts and also in and through the African diaspora. You know, for example, in West Africa she's openly prayed to and venerated and celebrated. However, in the Dirsi. And in particular in Kinshasa, she's considered taboo, and very few men will openly admit to worshiping her. Instead, Mami Wata in Kinshasa is perceived as a seductress, and she's really a deeply ambiguous figure connected to notions of material excess in particular. And so she's a mystical female siren who looks like a mermaid. She's depicted in painting as a mermaid. The top of half of her is. Is a beautiful woman, a topless woman, usually. And the lower half is. She has a tail like a fish tail. And she promises to reward her devotees with material wealth, but in exchange, she demands loyalty. And this is a man's loyalty, of course. And this loyalty sometimes requires men to make sacrifices, including the souls of their loved ones. So there's an abundance of stories surrounding Mami Wata, and she often serves as a cautionary tale. Her stories depict men who are seduced by material consumption. They're greedy and they're motivated to enrich themselves, but these men are then led to their own demise, their own destruction. So she's a cautionary tale, especially in Kinshasa. So Mami Wata is believed to have the ability to grow legs at night, and she enters the human world and there she seduces men. And there's such fantastical stories. It's always really interesting to be regaled by such stories. And my friend's uncle, for example, claimed to have interacted with her, and so he'll tell you that she's real, she exists. And tales of encounters with Mami Wata often involved descriptions of women of exceptional beauty, but who disappear into the night nights, which is, you know, very intriguing for everyone. And another intriguing aspect of Mommy, what's His Presence is. Is. Is the association with wealthy men who are sometimes believed to have made pacts with her. So. So, for example, if people can't really discern the source of a person's financial success, or what they do for work, for that matter, one will often hear claims that that man has Mami Wata or that his money is mystical. So there's this perception of dubious and suspicious sources of wealth and that these are considered sort of immoral because they could potentially be linked to occult forces harnessed in its acquisition. So, you know, in contemporary Kinshasa, this is also reflected in, you know, popular television shows. And a lot of these shows feature, you know, depictions of mummy what as well. And these portrayals are. Are situated in the context of consumption and capitalism especially. And, you know, here, you know, women are. Are considered sort of Immoral, insatiable seductresses who use their beauty and sexuality to extract resources from men. And I suppose that periods of stressful societal transformation often trigger concerns regarding the perceived virtue of women. And we see this all over the world. When things socially are changing very quickly, women are often the first people that are coming under control. Under control. Their bodies are the first things that are tempted to be controlled. And so, you know, moral panics often arise surrounding perhaps women's hidden desires or their seductive capabilities. And I think that the symbolic figure of Mami Wata serves as an effective representation to shed light on some of these, like anxieties linked to public visibility and also to capital accumulation. So there's an intersection there. And in many ways, I think, courtship and seduction within nightlife settings become intertwined with spiritual forces that influence popular discourses about dance in particular, and the dynamics of women's dancing, which can range from like, flirtatious teasing to potentially menacing expressions, render dance and ambiguous and challenging practice to socially control. And so women's dance, therefore, occupies, like, a pivotal intersection between various social dimensions, including social networks, religious morality, and the pursuit of sexual liberation. And Mami Wata in Kinshasa embodies, I think, complex and sometimes contradictory notions of femininity, materialism, and morality.
- [34:28]
B
And.
- [34:29]
C
And she serves as a symbol both of desire and danger, reflecting the evolving perceptions of female virtue and the impact of consumerism on society in that particular context.
- [34:45]
B
Yeah, absolutely. And this role, I mean, it sounds a bit that the kind of the double bind that she represents is something that you consider that you continue talking about in the. In the chapter after that, which looks at the complex relationship between intimacy and money and how this relationship has impacted women's ability to achieve professional respectability in the work sphere in Kashasa. And as you write throughout your book, there's a general assumption in Congolese society that the wider a woman's social relations are, the deeper they are involved in the sexual economy. Women are judged by how visible and exposed they are. And this goes beyond dancers, as you described, to include female journalists, merchants, and politicians. The wide social networks of a woman can be threatening to a man, thus placing women into double binds within the labor market. Can you tell our listeners more about this and how women in Congo both are expected to be financially independent, while at the same time reliant on these kind of patriarchal structures?
- [35:52]
C
Yeah, so like a lot of other cities, you know, Kinshasa has experienced a rapid urbanization, and it's given way to new modes of employment and also new Social roles for women. And I think we're facing this also within our own society. You know, like, you know, like, you know, the place of women is always changing, and we're entering new fields of work. And so, as you know, many scholars have highlighted, as women, women's work changes, so too do gender relations. There's a dynamic there at play and social capital, or there's a notion referred to as, quote, the wealth in people. You have social capital, you have your connections. There's a wealth that's associated with that. This is equally important for women as it is for men. So women need to maintain a large contact base in order to be successful in their different lines of work in the city. And public visibility is required to create and expand these social networks. Like, you have to be out and about to be meeting people. And the extent to which a woman presents herself in public shapes then how she's sort of morally perceived. And so herein lies a bit of the double bind that I was trying to sort of like, you know, highlight and explore. It's the sense in which, since a woman needs to cultivate, you know, her public network, her social networks, by being visible, there's also a little bit of a backlash and a moral stigmatization of women who are considered to be sort of overly visible. So it's this visibility that needs to be managed by women, especially in a public sphere. And one way in which a woman mitigates public visibility or exposure is through what's called a system of en catrement, which serves to protect and control and contain women through alliances, but also supervision. So in this chapter, I offered sort of several, you know, like, you bring up ethnographic accounts of women who participate in highly public jobs, like politicians and journalists and also money changers that change money on the streets, and of course, concert dancers. And in these different work milieu's, men often distress women because it's assumed that their line of work, their employment, brings male solicitation. So I explore the ways in which women's social network then poses a threat to her female virtue. And so the interplay between visibility, public work, and female virtue is something that I sort of like, I'm trying to tease apart in this chapter.
- [38:42]
B
Yeah, and something that you definitely succeed in, I think. And it is really fascinating to read about these double binds and both within the kind of dance industry and beyond that, in wider society and how that's constantly changing, which is what you're. Which is really what you are showing throughout the book. Moving to the final chapter, I Absolutely love this chapter thoroughly because it's such a beautiful depiction of what you do so well, a writer. You have these fantastic metaphors that you connect to dance into bigger themes in Congolese society. And in this particular chapter, you analyze the new tensions that have emerged and are constantly emerging between the sexes and the notions of sacred and profane that dance and dancers generate. Could you talk about some of these new tensions and what are they also a continuation of?
- [39:35]
C
I think in this last. In this very brief chapter, five pages or so, I guess I would. I was again trying to take some creative liberties and show how dance has a really unique and dynamic presence in Congolese society. And I wanted to show how dance spills out from modes of containment seeping between genres, and how it's regarded as a potent, motivating life force. And it's particularly challenging for an anthropologist to write about dance because it's such an ephemeral expression and it's so difficult to pin down. And even through writing, when you. When you write about it, somehow then pins it down and it transforms and it becomes this other thing, you know, and the individual's relation to. To power emerges through. Through affect in the way that, you know, dance can sort of evade precise language, just like sort of the dancer's ability to. To express through the body. And I think these tensions reflect a broader struggle in society of nuances of power and gender and culture, expression all sort of come together and become intertwined. And again, I think the ephemeral nature of dance and why relations of power are so often entangled with it and how they're entangled with it are reflected in performances like ones that I was looking at, especially the performances of young dancing women, the professional concert danseuse. And I think that these women inadvertently lay bare the struggles shared by many Congolese women as they navigate and they manage economically and politically precarious landscapes. And so the struggle for agency and autonomy and the negotiation of power dynamics, I think, are themes that transcend the dance stage and are not only reflect, but also shape larger societal shifts.
- [41:38]
B
Yes, absolutely. Thank you so much, Leslie. This has been such a. Such a rich conversation, and I've already taken a lot up a lot of your time before. But before we end today's episode, I'd like to ask you what you're working on and thinking about these days. What are your current projects and what have you been working on? Sorry. What have you been doing since Congo's Dancers was published, even though it's only been a couple of months? It just came Out. But what are some of the more recent projects that you've been working on?
- [42:08]
C
Well, first I wanted to extend my gratitude of course for having me on as a guest on this podcast. And it's really, it's a pleasure to talk about my work and have this opportunity to answer also such thoughtful questions. So thank you again. And yeah, this book is, it's only a few months old, but as we all know as anthropologists, this takes like quite a long time to write. And so actually for the past four years or so I've been deeply immersed in the exploration of the informal economy of trade in and between the DRC and China. And specifically I've been tracking the movements of women who work as transnational traders who are engaged in the importation of consumer products from China into the drc. And so this research has led me to investigate especially the role of The Internet and ICTs are Internet communication technology plays in these trading networks, especially you know, post pandemic. And so part of what I'm looking at is the ongoing efforts to connect ERC to underwater Internet cables. And of course this is part of a larger global trend where countries are striving to establish high speed Internet connectivity. And so in this regard I've been closely examining the various international players who are competing in, in the sphere of expanding Internet infrastructure in the drc. But then of course again, I'm always interested in recentering women in these larger sort of macro discussion. And so what are women's roles as traders and how do they position themselves in this very competitive economically landscape?
- [43:47]
B
Well, that sounds absolutely fascinating and I can't wait to hear and read more about it as your work begins to unfold after. Now that you finished this book, you can start focusing on other things. And also Leslie, we've been working on our own paper on dancers in China. So that's also something that listeners should look out for, looking at how in particular three African dancers in Guangzhou and other urban sites in China use the Internet and social media to bring African dance to the wider urban Chinese population or in particular young population. So just wanted to add on that's also something that we gotta finish that.
- [44:38]
C
Paper that's coming out coming soon. But yeah, thanks for mentioning that.
- [44:44]
B
Yeah, thank you so much Leslie. It's been such a fantastic conversation and I really thoroughly enjoyed your book and I encourage every all our listeners to go out and get a copy yourselves or contact your library to ensure that the library allows access for Congo's dancers. Thank you Leslie for joining me on the show. And thank you to our listeners for tuning into New Books Network. Have a great week, everyone.
- [45:18]
C
Sam.