Podcast Summary: Lorraine Besser, "The Art of the Interesting: What We Miss in Our Pursuit of the Good Life and How to Cultivate It"

Podcast: New Books Network
Host: Tom/Sam (New Books)
Guest: Dr. Lorraine Besser
Date: October 11, 2025
Book: "The Art of the Interesting: What We Miss in Our Pursuit of the Good Life and How to Cultivate It" (Balance, 2024)

Overview

This episode features a deep-dive conversation with philosopher Lorraine Besser about her latest book, "The Art of the Interesting." The discussion centers on how our traditional conceptions of the "good life" — happiness and eudaimonia (flourishing) — often miss an important dimension: psychological richness. Besser argues for recognizing and cultivating interesting experiences as a vital, often neglected, pillar of well-being. The episode blends philosophy, psychological research, practical advice, and moments of personal reflection, aimed at reimagining what it means to live well in modern life.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. How Lorraine Besser Came to "Psychological Richness"

• Academic & Personal Journey ([02:49–05:46])
  • Dr. Besser describes her two-decade research into virtue, happiness, and the good life.
  • Realization: Happiness and eudaimonia, while essential, "weren't all that there was to it."
  • Collaboration with psychologist Shigehiro Oishi sparked the conceptualization of psychological richness.
  • Personal relevance: Developed during a period of personal upheaval, finding meaning through complexity and new experiences in tough moments.
• Quote:
  “As I'm working on... the value of interesting experiences, I really started to recognize and understand within myself how important this had been to me throughout so much of my life.” – Dr. Lorraine Besser [04:35]

2. Defining Psychological Richness

• Distinction From Happiness ([06:34–08:23])
  • Psychological richness involves experiences that are complex, challenging, sometimes even unpleasant, but meaningful and enriching.
  • Happiness is "limited" if defined purely as pleasure or positivity.
  • Key insight: “We tend to think that if an experience isn’t pleasant it shouldn’t be part of our good lives. And I think we’re finding that’s such a mistaken kind of framework.” – Dr. Lorraine Besser [06:55]
• Impact on Well-Being: Even uncomfortable or adverse experiences can add “richness” and depth to our lives.

3. Comparing Eudaimonia and Psychological Richness

• Aristotle vs. Modern Conceptions ([08:23–11:44])
  • Eudaimonia: Thriving by exercising rationality and virtue — a very goal-oriented, telos-driven view.
  • Besser’s critique: Human capacity goes beyond “just the kind of goal-based directives.”
  • Quote:
    “Our minds can really push and explore things... we’re tapping into our curiosity, our creativity, we’re bringing out other dimensions of ourself that honestly I think often get squashed in the name of rationality or pursuit of purpose.” – Dr. Lorraine Besser [10:57]

4. The Role of Empirical Psychology in Philosophy

• Empirical Philosophy's Evolution ([11:44–15:12])
  • Early uses focused on critiquing established philosophical models.
  • Besser’s approach: Use empirical psychological research to build more accurate theories of the good life.
  • The collaboration with Oishi led to new frameworks and research tools for measuring psychological richness.

5. Psychology and Philosophy: A Productive Synthesis

• Interdisciplinary Work ([15:56–18:32])
  • Cross-fertilization between positive psychology and philosophical traditions yields deeper understanding of well-being.
  • The Templeton Foundation-funded project demonstrates how philosophers and psychologists can build new conceptual scales to distinguish psychological richness from happiness and meaning.

6. Technology, Attention, and Psychological Richness

• Modern Challenges: Distraction vs. Engagement ([19:57–23:41])
  • Not all mental activity (e.g., scrolling Instagram) equates to psychological richness.
  • Key distinction: Passive distraction vs. active cognitive engagement.
  • “We think we’re using our minds in some kind of way... yet we’re using our minds in a way that really just serves to distract us rather than engage our minds.” – Dr. Lorraine Besser [21:53]

7. Mindfulness and Noticing the Interesting ([23:41–26:42])

• Role of Mindfulness:
  • Mindfulness provides tools for focused, evaluative attention that enables us to notice and engage with interesting details in everyday life.
  • “You’re not just writing it off as good or bad, but you’re really getting to the level where you can notice… helpful in triggering these kinds of cognitive engagement.” – Dr. Lorraine Besser [24:24]

8. Accessibility of Psychological Richness in Modern Life

• Practical Application ([26:42–29:41])
  • Unlike other forms of the good life, psychological richness can be achieved in small, everyday moments.
  • Wasted or “dead” time (e.g., during commutes, waiting rooms) can become psychologically rich with a shift in awareness and curiosity.
  • “You can have an interesting experience without actually changing anything about your life or your day to day or even where you are.” – Dr. Lorraine Besser [27:31]

9. Interpersonal Relationships as Sources of Richness

• Social Contexts Enhance Psychological Richness ([29:41–34:18])
  • Sharing experiences with others can make them more vivid and meaningful.
  • Different relationships can cultivate different types of the good life (happiness, meaning, or richness).
  • Personal anecdote: Besser’s relationship with her now-husband Jody, who’s highly observant, helped her see the world differently.
  • “A conversation is one of the most interesting things that we can do... curiosity becomes more active.” – Dr. Lorraine Besser [33:42]

10. Policy, Education, and Cultivating Curiosity

• Societal Level Change ([36:59–44:55])
  • Calls for more time (less work, more leisure) to enable people to have rich experiences.
  • Educational systems should prioritize curiosity and creativity—not just rational, goal-driven learning.
  • “I think we can pay a lot more attention to those within our school systems... highlighting the benefits of curiosity, how we can expand our world with curiosity and develop knowledge.” – Dr. Lorraine Besser [43:17]

11. The Capabilities Approach and Freedom

• Human Capabilities & Freedom ([44:55–47:31])
  • Parallels with Amartya Sen and Martha Nussbaum’s concept of “capabilities”—the freedom and structures to develop ourselves fully.
  • Advocates broadening the list of “valued capabilities” to include psychological richness, creativity, and curiosity.

12. Curiosity as a Response to Anxiety

• Curiosity vs. Anxiety ([47:31–50:03])
  • Referencing research by Judson Brewer: Curiosity can counteract anxiety and become a mental pivot away from negative thought loops.
  • “It is so true. It’s a different way of turning your mind... being less immediately driven by instinctive reactions and really able to kind of pivot in your mind what you’re doing with new information.” – Dr. Lorraine Besser [48:33]
  • Non-evaluative curiosity fosters open-minded discussion and reduces political/personal polarization.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the insufficiency of happiness:
  “Happiness is very, very important, but it’s also pretty limited.” – Dr. Lorraine Besser [03:31]

• On the challenge of distraction:
  “When we do that and we get into these habits… we think we’re using our minds… yet we’re using our minds in a way that just serves to distract us… rather than to engage our minds.” – Dr. Lorraine Besser [22:05]

• On mindfulness and noticing:
  “If you can take this kind of mindset… and engage these tools of mindfulness… you can notice these small details that will really be helpful in triggering these kinds of cognitive engagement.” – Dr. Lorraine Besser [24:27]

• On building psychological richness into daily life:
  “You can have psychological richness within your lives by seizing on different moments within it.” – Dr. Lorraine Besser [26:57]
  “One of the things I think about a lot are the wasted time, right? The wasted time we have all the time during our days… during the waiting office at a doctor’s appointment… These are all actually pretty wasted times for most of us, right? But if you can… switch, recognize when you’re in these areas… you can have an interesting experience within those moments...” [28:28]

• On cultivating curiosity and creativity in education:
  “I believe that the best way to have interesting experiences is really to try to shift your mindset so that you can see the world in a way which opens it up to having more interesting experiences.” – Dr. Lorraine Besser [44:47]

• On interpersonal relationships:
  “A conversation is one of the most interesting things that we can do.” – Dr. Lorraine Besser [33:42]

• On the need to foster curiosity in society:
  “The best way to have interesting experiences is really to try to shift your mindset so that you can see the world in a way which opens it up…” – Dr. Lorraine Besser [44:47]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Dr. Besser’s Motivation & Background: [02:32–05:46]
• Defining Psychological Richness & Distinction from Happiness: [06:34–08:23]
• Eudaimonia vs. Psychological Richness: [08:23–11:44]
• Philosophy Informed by Psychology: [11:44–15:12]
• Technology, Distraction, & Attention: [19:57–23:41]
• Mindfulness & Everyday Richness: [23:41–26:42]
• Building Richness in Ordinary Life: [26:42–29:41]
• Relationships & Shared Experiences: [29:41–34:18]
• Policy/Education Implications: [36:59–44:55]
• Capabilities and Freedom: [44:55–47:31]
• Curiosity vs. Anxiety: [47:31–48:55]
• Closing Thoughts: [48:55–50:29]

Flow and Takeaways

• The conversation is both scholarly and deeply personal, with Besser sharing not only philosophical frameworks but lived experience.
• Psychological richness offers a fresh, flexible lens for reimagining personal fulfillment, beyond mere happiness or purpose.
• Emphasizing curiosity, creativity, and attention, Besser encourages listeners to use small daily opportunities—especially those that might otherwise be wasted—to cultivate a richer, more interesting life.
• Relationships, conversations, and openness to experience amplify this psychological richness.
• There are important implications for education, policy, and culture: shifting towards valuing curiosity and psychological exploration can help individuals and societies thrive.
• The episode closes on the hopeful notion that psychological richness is accessible to all and can be actively cultivated, even in our fast-paced and often distracted societies.

For those who haven't listened: Dr. Lorraine Besser’s insights offer an inviting, actionable, and philosophically grounded reconsideration of what it means to live a good life—urging us to seek not just happiness or meaning, but the art of the interesting.