M. H. Ayinde, "A Song of Legends Lost" (Saga Press, 2025)

Summary

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Podcast Summary:

New Books Network – Interview with M. H. Ayinde

Episode: M. H. Ayinde, "A Song of Legends Lost" (Saga Press, 2025)
Host: New Books
Date: August 11, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode features a conversation with M. H. Ayinde, author of A Song of Legends Lost, the acclaimed first installment of the Invoker series. The discussion explores the book’s rich tapestry of cultures, its interrogation of myths, the complexities of its characters, and its inventive magic system—all in the setting of an African-inspired fantasy world wrestling with the legacy of a fallen tech-based empire. Ayinde shares her inspirations, delves into the book’s themes of history, memory, and power, and discusses the nuanced moral questions that animate her work.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Nature of Legends and Historical Truth

[04:17-05:49]

• The titular “song” is a cornerstone of Nine Lands culture, celebrating the nine warlords and their warrior clans.
• Ayinde uses the distortion of history within legend to explore how societies warp their pasts, especially in the context of colonialism.
• “A large part of why I wrote this series is because I wanted to write something that explored the way in which history is often warped, especially colonial history, and the way in which our understanding of ourselves is shaped by the current times and not by necessarily things, facts.” — M. H. Ayinde [04:33]
• There exists another version of the song that “tells a deeper truth.” The notion of “lost” legends highlights omissions and deliberate erasures.

2. Cultural Inspirations

[05:49-08:32]

• Ayinde drew primarily from Yoruba (Nigeria, West Africa) and pre-colonial Filipino cultures, reflecting her own heritage and that of her children.
• The multicultural world is further enriched by influences from South Asian, European, and pre-Columbian American traditions.
• The unifying theme: ancestor veneration, common across these precolonial cultures.
• “I wanted a world that… featured as many [cultures] as I could get… ancestor veneration is something that is common to a lot of precolonial cultures and a lot of traditional cultures. So it was something that united them.” — M. H. Ayinde [07:17]

3. Ancestor Worship and Alternate Perspectives

[08:32-11:38]

• In the Nine Lands, invocation magic centers on worshipping ancestors to gain their aid in battle.
• The Bhutan Wives, particularly Nina, represent a divergent view: they see invocation and warrior culture differently, with a deeper awareness of history and skepticism towards the nobility’s role.
• “By becoming a warrior, you are sacrificing yourself to the ancestors, and you are also tying those ancestors to you… That is not really what ancestor veneration is to the families.” — M. H. Ayinde [11:09]
• The Families, often perceived as organized crime, are revealed to have their own nuanced systems and a different relationship to tradition.

4. The Nature of Spirits and Possession

[11:38-14:30]

• While only invoker clans are believed to summon ancestors, the novel quickly subverts this “received wisdom.”
• Various entities, both malevolent and unknown, can possess mortals—raising ethical and existential questions about power and the nature of spirits.
• “As we learn more about the magic system, we discover that the ancestral realm is vast and there are all sorts of beings in it... some are malevolent.” — M. H. Ayinde [13:29]
• Book two expands on the layers and complexity of the ancestral realm.

5. Complex, Often Ruthless Protagonists

[15:33-19:46]

• Multiple perspectives drive the novel, with protagonists shaped by a violent, war-torn environment.
• Characters like Temmie, Jinao, Illari, Valeo, and Runt are often ruthless, sometimes as a result of supernatural influence, sometimes as a reflection of their upbringing.
• Ayinde resists simple moral binaries:
  • “I don’t really believe that anyone is wholly heroic or wholly villainous in the world.” — M. H. Ayinde [16:29]
  • “They are not necessarily heroic in their deeds… they are products of their environment.” [16:46; 17:16]
• The narrative also explores the psychological consequences of violence and war.

6. Warrior Bonds and Quartet Dynamics

[19:46-23:02]

• Quartets, groups of four warriors, protect each invoker in trance. The bond often goes beyond mere duty, sometimes including romantic ties.
• Ayinde describes these relationships as “evolving naturally,” informed by the closeness and trust bred by constant dangers.
• Not all quartets are romantic, reflecting variance in intimacy and structure.
• “Sometimes I reckon one thing leads to another.” — M. H. Ayinde [22:59]
• Book two and three will further explore these dynamics.

7. The Graybloods: Technology, Cruelty, and History

[23:02-26:29]

• The Graybloods—tech-animated antagonists—are not monolithic: the most notorious (e.g., the Wood Maiden, the Bare Knitter) have distinct personalities and motives.
• Their cruelty often stems from their long existence and experiences of persecution:
  • “They are cruel because they have been treated cruelly. They are the worst of their kind... fighting for survival has hardened the hearts of some of them.” — M. H. Ayinde [25:23-25:55]
• Some Graybloods may have once been mortal, complicating the enemy/friend dichotomy.
• Book two reveals more about their origins.

8. Writing Progress & What’s Next

[26:41-28:06]

• Ayinde is editing the second draft of book three, the final installment of the trilogy—her biggest writing challenge to date.
  • “It was one of the hardest things I’ve ever done... it was really a great feeling to know that I could write this big story and bring it to a close.” — M. H. Ayinde [27:06; 27:19]
• Book two, A Dance of Burning Blades, is out in the UK and will be released in North America August 11.
• She has a short story in the anthology Forged in Fire (September), and hints at “a new epic fantasy trilogy in a totally different setting.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On history and myth:
  “Much of the history that the people have come to understand is false, but also that there is another version of that song which tells a deeper truth.” — M. H. Ayinde [05:16–05:23]

• On inspiration:
  “I am part Yoruba and my children are part Filipino. And I wanted a book to exist where heroes from all aspects of their heritage were represented.” — M. H. Ayinde [06:38–06:47]

• On character morality:
  “Are they the heroes? Not necessarily. They're the people through whom we view this story.” — M. H. Ayinde [16:46–16:51]
  “They live in a very violent world, and so violence surrounds them and inevitably becomes a part of them.” [19:38–19:46]

• On writing process:
  “It was one of the hardest things I’ve ever done because I have never completed a series before and I had a lot of spinning plates to bring together.” — M. H. Ayinde [26:59-27:06]

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Structure and Timestamps

• Intro & Set-up: [01:36–03:31]
• Book’s Title, Themes of Song & History: [03:34–05:49]
• Cultural Influences & World Building: [05:49–08:32]
• Ancestor Worship & The Families: [08:32–11:38]
• The Magic System & Spirit Possession: [11:38–14:30]
• Character Morality & Perspectives: [15:33–19:46]
• Quartet Relationships & Warrior Culture: [19:46–23:02]
• The Nature and Origin of the Graybloods: [23:02–26:29]
• Writing the Series, What’s Next: [26:41–28:06]
• Where to Follow the Author: [28:06–28:43]

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This summary captures the key content, themes, and voice of the episode, serving as a thorough guide for listeners and newcomers to M. H. Ayinde's work and the Invoker series.

Transcript

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[Interviewer]

hi and welcome to New Books Network. Today I'll be speaking with M A Chainday about A Song of Legends Lost. This is the first highly praised installment in the Invoker series. Set in a world offering a unique combination of an African inspired culture and a fallen tech based empire at war, the novel feels at once epic and deeply personal. MH Ayinda deftly creates an entire well imagined society with a minimum of distracting exposition. Her clear prose and astute characterization leave to reader intrigued but never confused onto the story itself. It begins with two protagonists from very different backgrounds who find themselves involved in momentous events. Both are overwhelmed by the unexpected powers they now wield. Jinao, a noble who has failed repeatedly to magically bond with an ancestor, suddenly succeeds but continues to be plagued by indecision. Temmie, a baker from the slums of Nine Lords, hosts a mysterious presence after she is cursed by a witch. From the initial setup, the book widens in scope, introducing a traumatized Captain Illari, a ruthless monk Valleo and a penniless girl runt. The world of the Nine Lands ruled over by the royal Ahiki clan who have fought the tech creatures they call Gray Bloods for generations has enough war for all of them. So I'm going to welcome Madupe Allende on the show to talk about the Song of Legends Lost, the first in her highly praised installment. Hi, Madupe.

[M. A. Chainday (Author)]

Hello. Thank you for having me on.

[Interviewer]

Oh, it's my pleasure. And I'm really enjoying your books. I know people in the US have to wait, but the second one is coming up really soon, and it's also good and you'll learn a lot more. But let's start with the first book. The title of the book is A Song of Legends Lost. The song is one familiar to the inhabitants of the Nine Lands. It foregrounds the ritual of invocation by which the ruling families of the Nine Lands channel the ancestor of their bloodline to fight the Gray Bloods. But legends aren't always based on an accurate history. Does the song fail to mention some important truths?

[M. A. Chainday (Author)]

In a word, yes, it does.

So a large part of why I wrote this series is because I wanted to write something that explored the way in which history is often warped, especially

colonial history, and the way in which our understanding of ourselves is shaped by the current times and not by necessarily things, facts.

So in the book, the Song of Legends lost itself is a song that

is basically sung in honor of the nine warlords who lead the warrior clans who protect the Nine Lands. And it's sung at funerals and other sort of special occasions.

But yes, through.

Through the course of the novel, you

learn not only that much of the history that the people have come to

understand is false, but also that there is another version of that song which

tells a deeper truth.

So it actually wasn't the original title of this series, but when we started thinking about other titles, myself and the editorial team at Orbit uk, I realized that it was a good opportunity to incorporate this in the story itself.

So it kind of served a double purpose, though.

[Interviewer]

To an outsider, the Nine Lands seem to have many characteristics in common with African culture and perhaps some other cultures too. There's food, names, clothing. Which cultures inspired you and how did you feel drawn to those cultures?

[M. A. Chainday (Author)]

So this book was inspired by a number of pre colonial cultures. I mean, the two cultures that I really wanted to bring together in an epic fantasy series. The two which were closest to me were Yoruba culture and more broadly, Nigerian and West African culture and Filipino culture

that, you know, specifically pre colonial Philippines. The reason being I. I am part

Yoruba and my children are part Filipino. And I wanted a book to exist where heroes from all aspects of their

part, their heritage were represented so that was why those cultures were most important to me.

And they're sort of most prominent in the book. I mean, Tami, one of the main characters, the part of her heritage is inspired by Yoruba culture, as is Valeo, who is one another of the main characters of this book and his homeland. And then Janelle, who is a third main character. His culture is inspired by pre colonial Philippines. But I also, when I was. When I originally started writing the. In this world, I had a number of cultures and I wanted it to feel very multicultural because I wanted it to reflect my upbringing and the environment I live in here in London and many different cultures that have had an impact on my life. So I wanted a world that, that featured as many of them as I could get. And when I started thinking about a way to unite these cultures because they are very different from each other, I realized that ancestor veneration is something that is common to a lot of pre colonial cultures and a lot of traditional cultures. So it was something that united them. So yeah, there are South Asian cultures represented there. There are European cultures represented as well and pretty pre Columbus American cultures. So I wanted to show the myriad ways in which all continents have been affected by colonialism. So that was a large part of it. But yeah, you will find most prominently

a Filipino and Yoruba culture.

[Interviewer]

So we were speaking about ancestor worship and something that many of those cultures had integrated into their culture. And the ancestor worship is also part of the invocation. They're worshiping their ancestors and their ancestors help them if they're properly worshiped. Or at least the book begins like that. So I wanted to introduce a different perspective. There are the Bhutan wives, a group of warrior women. Jintao encounters them and they have their own view of the invocation of the ancestors. Nina, the head of the clan, has a different point of view about invocation and warrior culture in general. What is her perspective and how does it contrast with Janelle's?

[M. A. Chainday (Author)]

Yeah, so the BTN wives, Nina and

Nisha, they are heads of what is

called in the book a family with a capital F. And the families are. The understanding you have at the beginning of this series is that the families are effectively organized crime networks. They are groups of people where some are connected by blood, some, some are not. And they engage in activities that are deemed not legal by the authorities. They also may be prominent in their communities, protecting or not protecting, depending on your perspective. And as the book goes on, you come to understand that the families have a slightly different history, which I don't want to go into too much because it's a little bit spoilery. But in terms of their perspective,

[Interviewer]

first

[M. A. Chainday (Author)]

of all, they are much more aware of their history than the average person in the Nine Lands would be. And certainly then the main characters that we experience this story through are. They also have a very different perspective on war and the purpose of the invoker clans, who are effectively this world's nobility. They are warrior clans. They exist to fight Greybloods. And I'm trying to think how to express this without being too spoilery. But there is an exchange between Janelle and One of the B10 wives who says that in many ways, by becoming a warrior, you are kind of sacrificing yourself to the ancestors, and you are also tying those ancestors to you by summoning them in battle. You know, that is not really what ancestor veneration is to the families. It is not. Let me bring them back.

Justify.

There is more to it than that. So I think that via Nina and Nisha, this is the first example of a character realizing there is much more to invocation and that side of the magic system than we have been taught.

[Interviewer]

And that brings up the bonding with the spirits anyway. That seems to be a recurrent theme. Sometimes it's desired, sometimes it's feared, sometimes it's unexpected because you are just walking by and a witch popped up out of nowhere. So some spirits just seem to drop in and their motivation is obscure or malevolent. Can you talk again? It's hard not to talk about it without being spoilery. But an example of the different kinds of spirits that can drop in on a person.

[M. A. Chainday (Author)]

Yeah, of course. So at the start of the novel, the understanding is that there are nine warrior clans, two of which are actually extinct, quote unquote, so seven. And they are the only ones who can bring their ancestors back from the ancestral realm, and only the founding warlords of those clans can be brought back.

That is the sort of received wisdom,

so to speak, of. Of the nation. But we learned pretty quickly in the first chapter that that is not true. In basically the first chapter, we see a character who encounters another type of entity from the ancestral realm. And actually we don't really find out exactly what that entity is until really certainly the end of book one, possibly even into book two, before we truly begin to understand what that that entity is. As we learn more about the magic system, we discover that the ancestral realm is vast and there are all sorts of beings in it. Some of them can be brought into the mortal realm, some of them are malevolent so there is a group of creatures that are pretty prominent in the series as antagonists, and no one can quite work out what they are. They can possess mortals. I'm going to say that even though it's a bit of a spoiler, but, you know, you find out relatively early on that that's the case. They can possess mortals. And they have a very different idea of what. Of ethics.

Let's just say,

then there are other things in the ancestral realm, and particularly in book two, we begin to understand what the ancestral realm is and how it works. There are layers to it. And yeah, there. I don't think I can say anymore. But there. There are other types of spirits, let's

just say, that will come particularly into book two.

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[M. A. Chainday (Author)]

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[Interviewer]

Well, let's talk about. You have several narrators in the first book. As I explained in the introduction, they seemed to me at first reading until I read the book too. They seemed merciless. Apart from Geno, who seemed to just be struggling with purpose in the first book more than anything else. For example, Captain Illauri's quartet is constantly begging her to let them finish off suspicious characters. And Rand kills someone accidentally, but then reflects on how good it feels. Boleo throws his superior from a tower. Why? Are these people the heroes of your story? Or are they heroes?

[M. A. Chainday (Author)]

And so I'll answer that sort of in reverse, are they? Are they heroes? I don't really believe that anyone is

wholly heroic or wholly villainous in the world.

I mean, I'm saying that. And I'm thinking of some prominent people that are very much close to being 100% villain. But if most people are, they have, you know, shades of gray within them. So that's the short answer.

So are they the heroes? Not necessarily.

They're the people through whom we view this story.

And one of the reasons I like

multi po these stories is because I

like to see worlds from multiple perspectives, especially perspectives that are very unlike me. And that's. Yeah, so that's part of it. So they are not necessarily heroic in their deeds. More broadly, a lot of them will

put temi and run aside for the minute. The rest of them are products of their environment. Well, everyone is a product of their

environment, but Valeo, Jinao and Ilari are all effectively members of the invoker clans. And the invoker clans are. Are basically a warrior caste. They are warrior families who exist to make war on the Greybloods. So they come from a violent environment, and their existence is a violent one. Particularly Illari, who.

She is a captain of a quartet. So the quartets are a group of

warriors who protect an invoker, because when an invoker calls on their ancestor, they kind of go into a trance, so they can't really move or protect themselves in battle.

So they have four warriors who kind

of stand around them, protecting them from attack. So, yes, they are products of their environment. Runt, specifically. And the instant you mentioned where she feels good about killing, part of that particular incident is because she is at that point bonded to some entities who have an impact on her psyche. So part of her reaction is because of them she has killed before, as is. As is kind of hinted at in book one.

And in book two, you kind of find out a bit more about why. And she is definitely not what I

would call a hero, but she is one of the people through whom we view the story. And she has had a very cruel upbringing and has been isolated for her whole life, which has made her into someone who is constantly on the defensive. And when people are on the defensive, that is when, in my experience, they are most likely to attack. So she is a product of her upbringing, Tammy. I never really thought of her as being ruthless. She is brusque and blunt. Again, there is a violent incident in book one towards the end, and again, she is slightly. Her psyche is slightly impact by the entity to which she is bonded. So I don't know whether the reaction

was wholly her own, but I suppose

the bottom line is they live in a very violent world, and so violence surrounds them and inevitably becomes a part of them.

[Interviewer]

You know, you spoke quickly about Illari as an example and explained how she and the rest of the quartet have a function. They protect the invoker. And often the captain of the quartet is the wife of the invoker, as is the case with Illari. And she does have a very loving aspect to her as well. She was totally devoted to the Kantec Ita wau. And also something that was interesting to me, these are all very hardened warriors, as you say, in a warrior culture. But they all slept with contact in the middle, kind of sharing him. And I wanted to know, is such love always the rule among the quartet? Or there ever cases where they're jealous of each other or one of them wants to be closer to the invoker?

[M. A. Chainday (Author)]

Yeah.

So, no, it's not the rule.

I think it's very common for a invoker to have their or a member of their quartet, usually the captain, as their spouse. There are multiple instances of it in the series. I suppose part of that was I just thought, these people are very close. They in Voca would have their quartet around them all the time. They are used to surrendering themselves completely and being very vulnerable with them.

And I just think in real life

as well, when you think about people in those kind of extreme situations, which,

you know, going to war would be, you would form close bonds.

So Illari in particular, and the sort of love that exists between her and her quartet and her spouse, that was never something I decided on. It just kind of evolved on its own. I think, originally when I started writing that character, because actually, Illari, even though she's not one of the most prominent viewpoint characters, she's one of the ones who's been with me the longest. Originally, that relationship did not exist, and she was a widow on her own and did not have her lieutenants. And then once I started thinking about the quartet and what purpose she would serve in it and the relationship between her and the other warriors, it just kind of happened. It just felt natural. And particularly given that her husband is gone, I thought she'd be really lonely and she would turn to the people closest to her. But there are other quartets that are not romantically involved with in any way with each other. There is an example in book two, and that is built upon in book three with one of the viewpoint characters who has more of a sort of paternal and sort of sibling type relationship with the quartet. But I figure it must be a really close relationship. So, you know, sometimes I reckon one thing Leads to another.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, they spend so much time with each other. Well, let's move on to the enemies as they appear to be. In the first book, the Graybloods are animated by Teck. There are named Graybloods. Augustos are particularly important Graybloods who seem to be stronger than the other ones, such as the Baron Eater and the Wood Maiden. They're especially dangerous and difficult to kill. These creatures exhibit an unusual degree of cruelty, mocking their opponents, forcing terrible choices on them. And so when one is first reading the first book, one wonders, why would a tech entity exhibit such emotionally deviant behavior?

[M. A. Chainday (Author)]

Okay, so that's a very layered question. I will start by saying that the woods made in the Bernie are, as you mentioned, they are not representative of the majority of Gray Bloods. They are, as you said, named Grey Bloods, which are, you know, to. From the point of view of the people of the Nine Lands, the worst Gray Bloods. So they're the ones that have been. They're very long lived, so they've probably existed for centuries and they've become notorious. They are hard to kill.

So this whole mythos are sort of

built up around them.

And the people of the Nine Lands

have given them those names.

I view them as being the most corrupted.

Sort of psychologically they've lived for a long time. As you find out in book two. They have their own origin, which explains why they are quite violent. The Bare Knitter in particular. You do find out more about him in book two and he actually speaks about why he is so cruel in an exchange between him and another Grayblood who is a healer. And his cruelty is very deliberate. The Woods Maiden, I think, is just

sort of beyond redemption.

She. She is one of those very close

to 100% villainous characters, but even she

has been mistreated in her past, which

is alluded to in book two.

And she is not the boss of herself, as you kind of find out. So they. They are cruel because they have been treated cruelly. They are the worst of their kind. And they have been, you know, they're. They're. The Gray Bloods are basically being attacked constantly by the people of the Nine Lands and are fighting for survival. So that has hardened the hearts of some of them and made them what

[Interviewer]

they are and isolated Nine Lands feel like they're being attacked constantly by the Gray Blood.

[Podcast Sponsor]

That's.

[M. A. Chainday (Author)]

They do. They do. But there was another part of your question which was about tech entities. And I don't know if we want to touch on that. I mean, they are entities that are fused with tech, but they are. They are. I don't want to say too much,

but some of them were maybe once

not quite what they are now. So they have changed. Some of them have a more mortal origin, let's just say.

[Interviewer]

Let's say that until the American readers can get Book two. Well tell us, are you working on book three now or what's up next?

[M. A. Chainday (Author)]

So yeah, book three, the first draft is done. I'm actually just currently editing the second draft. It is long is the final book in the trilogy. It was one of the hardest things I've ever done because I have never

completed a series before and I had

a lot of spinning plates to bring together.

So it was a real challenge.

But I think I kind of pulled it off to my satisfaction and it was really a great feeling to know that I could write this big story

and bring it to a close.

So yeah, book three, I'm just working on the second draft now. It should hopefully be out next year. Book two, A Dance of Burning Blades that is already out in the UK and it comes out in North America on the 11th of August. What else am I working on?

I also have a short story coming out in September with the anthology Forged

in Fire, which is edited by devaughan Sanders and that is available for pre order is a fantastic and Fallen

[Podcast Sponsor]

and

[M. A. Chainday (Author)]

I am working on new things.

I'm trying to pull together a new

epic fantasy trilogy in a totally different

setting and yeah, and something else on the side as well that I won't talk about.

[Interviewer]

Well, how do people keep up with you? What's the best way to find out what you're up to?

[M. A. Chainday (Author)]

So I am on most social media

platforms, although you'll find me most actively on Blue sky and Instagram. As Mhind I'm the same. I have the same handle across all platforms and if you want to watch a Gen X, embarrass yourself on TikTok

and on there as well. My website w.mhanda.com and I also have

a monthly newsletter which you can sign up to there. So yeah, that's how you can keep up with what I'm doing.

[Interviewer]

Okay, well thanks so much for taking time to talk to me today.

[M. A. Chainday (Author)]

Thank you so much for having me on.

[Podcast Host/Outro]

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