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Maddalena Alvi, "The European Art Market and the First World War: Art, Capital, and the Decline of the Collecting Class, 1910–1925" (Cambridge UP, 2025)
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Marshall Poe
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Madeleina Alvey
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Marshall Poe
Welcome to the New Books Network.
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Priya Gandhi
Hi, I'm Priya Gandhi, a host on the New Books Network. Today I'm joined by Madeleina Alvey. Madeleina is the author of the European Art Market and the First World Art Capital and the Decline of the collecting class 1910-1925. The first comparative Transnational An Interdisciplinary History of the European Art Market during the First World War. Hi Madeleina. Can you tell me a little bit about yourself and your background?
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Madeleina Alvey
Hi Priya. Thank you very much for inviting me to talk about the book today. I am a historian of modern Europe. I was originally trained as a classicist and art historian and historian as well. I studied economic and social history at the University of Oxford. Oxford. And then I pursued PhD at the university of Cambridge where I worked on, well, the history of the European art market, unsurprisingly. And then I've Held postdoctoral positions in Rome, Amsterdam and Manchester, where I kept working on the book and on this project. And that's me.
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Priya Gandhi
That's great.
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Madeleina Alvey
Thank you.
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Priya Gandhi
How did you come to write this book? What sparked the inspiration?
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Madeleina Alvey
So it's an interesting question. I think that's one of the most interesting questions you can ask a historian. It was because I tried to work in the art world. I wanted to work in the art market. It's always been a world that interested me a lot. And from that experience of trying to work there, I just developed an intellectual curiosity for the history of the art market, more for the history of collecting. So the first ideas for a search project revolved around a story of transnational collecting networks in the late 19th century. And so I applied to study economic and social history because I was really interested in the economic dynamics of the market and wanted to. Yeah, just wanted to become a better historian, if you want. And the summer prior to starting my master's in Oxford, I went to an archive because I said, the masters is going to be a lot of work to do some. Some prior work before I start. So I get some interesting material, maybe. And I. I remember going to this museum archive in Germany, and I. I remember searching in the search engine, just the two words, art market, art and market. And what came up was an interesting source called Derkunstmarkt, which is the German for the art market. And that was an art market journal published in Germany before the war. And I thought it looked interesting. And so I took photographs as my insurance. And then I started my master's in Oxford and I started reading this source, and I found really interesting remarks on what was happening during the First World War. So the art historians, the art critics who worked as reporters for this art market journal reported changes to the market. They reported about new buyers who were investors, who were coming into auctions, who didn't know how to behave, who didn't understand price hierarchies, who were bidding like crazy and who all wanted, according to them, to invest their money safely because of inflation, because they were worried about the situation of the German economy. There was a lot of conspicuous consumption. And that was so interesting. And that really sparked my interest. And I thought, well, it's not just about art. It's about property and capital. So it's about who acquires art. It's about how capital shifts. And that really sparked my interest. And I thought, that's a fascinating. That's a fascinating phenomenon. And some of the critics who were writing were aware that what was happening had historical Value. They were writing, this is a piece of war economy history. And so I started researching and asking, is there some work on the German art market during the First World War? And then I realized that there wasn't really a study specifically on the market. There were studies on different facets of the art world of artistic production of art and propaganda, but nothing on the First World War and on. On the art market. And that really was. Was, for me, what sparked the interest. And I thought that times of war and crisis are times in which the configuration of property and the configuration of ideas about property changes and capital moves extremely quickly. And so it's a very interesting time to be studying the art market. And I mean, the First World War is such an important historical caesura, right? It's the first cesura of the 20th century. And so the world we live in is ultimately derived from it. I mean, the. So much of it. And so I thought, I must study this. I really, really must study. And I was, you know, I was interested in the question, what happens to the market? What can the market tell us about the First World War as well, about, you know, modern warfare? And what can it tell us about European cultural, political and social history? And art is such an interesting object of study. It's so many things. It can be so many things. It's private and public property. It's cultural and economic capital. It's the subject of legislation and regulation. It's an object that can be looted. So there was so much that attracted me to this topic and the opportunities. And I started with Germany, and then I realized, well, there's space for more. And I was encouraged to make it into a study on Europe. So that's the story of how it all started.
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Priya Gandhi
Wow. Amazing. Yeah. And you drew on auction records, memoirs, newspapers, and archival finance documents across six languages to write this book. Can you tell me a little bit more about how you handled the research process of all of these languages, all of these histories, and very specific cultural contexts?
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Madeleina Alvey
Yeah, so that's a good question, and again, an interesting one. I think those are the questions that we historians love to answer. So I started with Germany, right? And Germany was my kind of case study where I try to understand how to. How to develop my research and what I could do and what I couldn't do. Which sources were available, which worked, which didn't. And what happened was that I started by reading all the reports, basically all the numbers of this art market journal, the Kunstmart, published during the war and also prior to the war, because I wanted to have a pre post comparison. So try to understand that shift and the transformation. And so I just read, I read all of it and I, and I realized I need to record prices and I need to understand price development. So you know, I can really see are the sources right in what they're observing, are prices really developing the way they say they do, what's happening? So I wanted to have that qualitative and quantitative framework and that was, that is ultimately a bit of the core of my work. So that's where I started from. And once I had that, I realized that there were recurring topics, recurring debates, issues that I could delve into. And I then build basically my, my source basis around, around, around what I saw and, and around trying to understand not just the market for how it developed. Yeah, just the mark. But I, I wanted to understand what transpires of all these debates that people hold about the market outside, you know, what, what, you know. And so I was interested in looking in more general art journals and cultural journals to see do they also describe similar phenomena? What, you know, what is it? What is happening? Something that's only recorded in these specific art market journals? Or do I find it also in other cultural sources? So I looked into that type of source and then I, I was interested, the interest grew. It somehow grew into the question, okay, and what about the public and what about mass media? What about newspapers? So I was interested then in looking into major newspapers and really mass media and articles, caricatures. I mean, is it something that only a few people know? Or are people reading about these phenomena also in newspapers? That's, that's something that interested me. And you know, what, what does, how does that help me understand what's happening? And then there were characters that were recurring personalities that were important. And, and I wanted not only to construct a narrative for what was happening just generally, but I wanted to have that micro insight of seeing how our lives being affected by what is happening. Who are the actors who are maybe shaping certain changes, shaping certain shifts. And so I looked into memoirs and diaries and then there were legal documents that were relevant because so much changed also in terms of regulation, in terms of measures taken of policy. So I looked into legal documents, into parliamentary debates, into all these world of regulation and policies that further helped me frame what was happening. And I'd say that was the process I repeated for each country. So the studies really based on it's, it's true that it's six languages, but the main markets are the British, the French and the German one that's a comparative framework that historians have used when studying the First World War. And those are the major auction markets in Europe that I was interested in. So I, I basically repeated this exact process for the three main markets. So literally, you know, I looked at, yeah, I looked at the Kunstmacht in Germany, the Gazette Drouot and the years Art. So I looked at all these auction market journals, then I looked at specific artistry cultural journals. Then I looked into these major newspapers, you know, the Times, Le Figaro, Berlinerblatt. So all of them. Well, not all of them. I tried to be selective. I mean, I, I tried to really focus on, on, on, on what they were writing about the art market. I just didn't, didn't. And, and then, and then I, I worked also on, on, on the legislation and, and the, the legal debate and the regulatory debates in, in these three countries mainly. And this involved a lot of archival research. So mainly in the National Archives in Paris and then in the National Archives in London and I also visited archives in Germany. So it was a process that took a long time because I constructed first the framework around these three countries and I constructed an argument about disintegration and I looked at the belligerence, right. I look at the three main actors and three main markets. But then I wanted to understand what's happening in countries that are not at war. Right? There's the neutrals, there's countries that just aren't affected by the war. And these areas are interesting because does the narrative I developed apply to them as well? How are they different? And so I was interested in producing a sort of counter narrative, if you want. And I worked then on ultimately a similar type of sources. I didn't gather prices or data on them. The work was more on again, cultural, cultural magazines, dealers, memoirs and tax records, for instance. They were quite important. Absolutely, yeah. And that was really the, the, the research process and it's, it's a comparative work. So you are always redefining what you find, what you've, it's, it's. I think it's the process that requires a lot of patience compared to national histories. So you're dealing with. Yeah, with a very complex and multifaceted type of source across different countries. And that's, that's challenging. So it's a process that takes years, ultimately, I'd say absolutely, yeah.
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Priya Gandhi
It's this beautiful, it sounds like it's this beautiful complicated equation of qualitative and quantitative and going from smaller context to bigger contexts and really being able to ascertain what things look like in each of those contexts and in relation. You touched on this, on these three markets, London, Paris, and then within England, France and Germany. Can you tell us a little bit about what the European art market was like before World War I, particularly in the late 19th century and early 20th century, and who was collecting art at that time?
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Madeleina Alvey
Yes, sure. So I think let's perhaps first start by talking about what art market means, in a way, and how I define the art market and how I try to capture the art market. That's a central methodological question. So the term art market really comprehends a series of very different commercial transactions. So there are direct sales or sales between artists and buyers that are usually called primary sales. So we talk about a primary market and then there's a secondary market, a resale market, if you want. And auctions are very important for this secondary market. And as a historian, I was very interested in auctions because auctions are like the distribution centers, like the conveyor belts. You can compare them to conveyor belts through which art just passes naturally. And they allow you to construct comprehensive narratives because there's just a lot going through them. And so you can understand so much about global developments when you look into auctions. So I was, I was interested in auctions mainly. I also work on contemporary art and direct sales. But a lot of the book really concerns the auction market. And, and I think what's important to say is when, when, you know, when, when introducing the European market is to talk about market integration. And market integration, price integration means that, you know, if you're someone who's interested in collecting art and you're, you know, you want to buy a certain type of Rembrandt, for instance, you, you know, you can go to Paris and expect to pay roughly the same price that you pay in Germany. There are not too many barriers for you to travel across, across countries. So that is what makes a market integrated. And in the case of a commodity like art, really what enables this market integration is an integration of taste, a shared system of values, of aesthetic appreciation are common. Right. So there's this economic and cultural integration that, that is central to understanding the art market before the First World War. And really what holds this market, this pre war market together is what I call a collecting class. And that's a transnational group of collectors who enjoy art and buy it and sell it, dealers who enable commercial transactions, of critics who write about them. So there's a complex ecosystem, really, that is the one animating the market. And it's one that moves across countries. And that's what really the term European market means for me. So it's this supernatural market complex where property and capital are constantly redefined, renegotiated, bought, acquired, resold. So this is what these platforms are about and what I'm interested in capturing in this book. And in terms of who collects art, there are, I mean, the market consists clearly of different geographic spheres, right? There are different trade spheres and we can talk about the differences between them. But there are really similarity in who is collecting art across countries. And I'd say you can say there are four or five types of collectors if you want to analyze them socioeconomically. You know, you have the type of big industrialist who collects and you find that type of collector often in Germany and Britain and they are huge manufacturing powers. So that's not surprising. Then you have the kind of associated with this category, the kind of more entrepreneurial businessmen. That's another category you find in Britain and Germany. You find it in France a lot as well. And then you have financial capital, so banking fortunes, a must for banking. And those are important collectors across the three markets. Oppenheimer, Cannes, all these names are names that everyone who studies banking and finance in the pre war period knows. And they are really important and they appear as collectors. And then you have what is ultimately an artistic elite who owns art. So it's the artists themselves who collect art, who own art and produce it. And then, you know, they're the ones who also bring it, bring it to auction. And there's just the type of artist and then there's the art dealers who also often come and sell. They can sell a part of their collections at auctions. I mean, that's dealing is also collecting, right? So there's that and then there's a more perhaps bourgeois type of collector who belongs to professions that in France are known as the art liberal. So lawyers, physicians, doctors who also collect art. So those are, you know, those are types of collectors that you find across, across Europe. And there are some, there are some differences clearly. And I mean each country then has its own collecting histories and structural traits. But I'd say those are the collectors. And then really. Yeah, that's, that's, I'd say to simplify greatly, that's the point.
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Madeleina Alvey
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Priya Gandhi
And of course, you know what a general question. And your book goes so in depth, so listeners will have to read more to truly understand that collecting class. Yeah. So from 1910 to 1925 is where your book is based. This is a very general question that will also be a simplification based on all of the work you've done on the book. But how would you summarize the art market in England compared to France, compared to Germany?
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Madeleina Alvey
Yeah, that's a very good question. And I think simplification is really important because you need to be able to say actually what the book says. Right. And it's very nice to go into detail.
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Priya Gandhi
Absolutely, absolutely.
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Madeleina Alvey
But I mean, we're writing stories. So what's the story here? And so about, about this difference and this. Well, I think there are just some simple facts, so. And they, they're easy to name. So Britain and the British market really revolves around auction houses like Christie's and Sotheby's that are established at the end of the 18th century. Britain doesn't have the kind of tumultuous and revolutionary history that France has. So there's a great deal of continuity. Yeah, it's, I mean, this, that's a perk of being British. And if you're French, you had a revolution. Right. And a lot happened and your 19th century was different. So the major auction house in Paris is the Hotel Drouot, established in 1852 close to the Parisian stock market. And it's established at the Evo of the Second Empire and the Drou is an interesting place because the French art market functions slightly different than the British one. So while the British market really is a kind of private system, it's based on private business rules. In France it's different because auctioneers are state officials. And so there's a system of public auctions. So the state plays quite a role, unlike in Britain. So that's a major difference that is, I'd say, important to mention. And these cities attract, because we're talking about this transnational collecting class and this. This idea of market integration. They attract different kinds of capital. So they're both international centers, but in a different way. So Paris is this very cosmopolitan city that attracts a lot of collections from countries of Europe, like Italy and Spain. So Paris is a. It's a place where Latin Europe goes to sell. Russian collectors also sell in Paris. Ottoman collectors also sell in Paris, for instance. So it's a great market where renowned collectors print their collections. Some of them are established in Paris, many of them aren't. And again, to simplify, in Britain, in London. London is a magnet for Anglophone capital, right? So American money, American collectors, but just general. Let's call it Anglophone capital. But you also have a lot of entrepreneurs and industrialists, many of them of German origin, for instance, who settle down and live in London. And they also, you know, they're important to understand the market. They are also actors on the market. So if you want, it's a different type of internationality and a different type of capital that this city is attract, roughly speaking. And I'd say those are structural differences. And I think these markets are clearly. And I think that's something that it's important never to forget when you're writing history. Like, these markets aren't just floating around in a vacuum nowhere. Right. It's not just the market detached from everything. They're part of urban, urban geographies, they're part of societies, they're part of countries. And they're deeply enmeshed in the fabric of their time in this sense. And what that means is that there's a lot of pressure on these markets coming from cultural and economic structures, debates, tensions. And I'd say really what is interesting, what you see when you consider again, these cultural debates or these general public debates, when you look at what really touches. How do people talk about the art market outside of specialistic publications? You see that a lot of attention is put on the art market as a place where ultimately heritage is on sale and trade is Completely free. And that creates a kind of tension because this is a time when Britain.
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Madeleina Alvey
Is somewhat a crossroads. So this, the free trade ethos that characterized ultimately British auctions and just generally British trade and British economic history is faced with the pressure of competing economics, economic ideas. So we talk about free trade as opposed to fair trade. That's a big election slogan. And this comes more specifically with fears about heritage and British art holdings, British art properties leaving the country. So there's this big tension, all right, and this big pressure on the British market. Somehow these debates on free trade, how do we trade, how free do we trade? Those are important societal debates that impact the market as well. Prior to the First World War and in France, you have debates that really concern a lot the. The cosmopolitan character of the market, where you see that that is under threat because there's growing nationalism and many foreign influences in the French market, and very specifically German ones are seen as a major threat, a major cultural, A major economic threat that could have the power to potentially destroy the market. And you see, that's for a market that is built on cosmopolitanism and transit collections and attracting foreign capital. That's a huge pressure. So I'd say that's France and Britain. And if you want to do the same type of descriptive job for Germany, Germany is a young country. Germany becomes a nation, you know, in the 1870s, properly. So that's, that's when. That's when the country's unified. And you know, that. That means we have yet another different history, yet different business structures. And what we see is a decentralized market that reflects ultimately the federal nature. So not the federal, but the regional nature ultimately of the market structure. I mean, there are business houses, auction houses that were established already in the late 19th century, sorry, in the late 18th century. But the major players are auction houses established in the 1817-70s and 1880s. And their auction house is like Helbing Lepke, that will become very, very important. And so that's a major structural difference to Britain and France. Right. And that's a market where, simply said, the pressure is again, an interesting one because you have an expanding market where people want to buy art. It's a 20th century market. Right. But you have a lot of entrenched, somehow 19th century cultural values that still impact market behavior. And you also have. And that's very important nationalism. And that means that museums play a very important role on the German market. And they are ultimately at the top of the hierarchy of the market, at least. The idea is that if you're at an auction and a museum is bidding. If you're a good collector, if you're a proper collector, you don't bid against museums because it's important that Germany buys art, that Germany establishes museums like the French and the German ones. So you have to ultimately behave in a certain way. And there's just a general suspicion against luxury and partially against the most capitalist elements of the market. To simplify greatly, absolutely.
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Priya Gandhi
You've already touched on this in your incredible summary of what is such a complicated history and context. But something that I found interesting and that you just touched on is of course, the art market adjusting to rising nationalism and the value of art going up in Germany during World War I and how that compares to the art market in France and Britain at the time. I'd love for you to talk a little bit more about that and the relationship to nationalism that you've just mentioned.
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Madeleina Alvey
Yes, yes, yes. So I think. It's complex. So I think that it's important to understand the nature of the impact of the war. Right. That's a key question. And I think the best way to understand that is to imagine it's a bit like a chemical reaction. It's like the war is a catalyst, a reactant. So, and the work comes into these integrated European market. And you have this system that's upheld, as I said, by all these international figures who acquire and observe and record and criticize. And it's all a very delicate balance. There's this supranational structure, there are these national structure, these national markets. There are all these cultural economic pressures on it. Right. So it's a very, very complex system. And the war comes in. And ultimately what happens during the war really depends on the pre war trajectories of the market, both in economic terms and then clearly also in cultural terms. Right. So that's, that's what I tried to capture, both the cultural and the economic impact. And what's interesting is that when, you know, in 1914, the war breaks out and then different trajectories start to emerge. And the German one is a very interesting one because the war acts on Germany in a way, the impact of the war, you feel it less than on France. It takes a bit of time for the war to show its impact on the German market, as opposed, for instance, to the French one. And it's 1916. That is a key date and a key time for Germany. And in order to understand what happens, that's also useful for understanding the British development is that Germany develops an inflationary Problem, there's inflation because the German government decides to expand the monetary base to fund the war. So unlike the British, they don't borrow money, they work on well, they just somehow use mechanism that unfortunately for the German economy, start creating inflation. And this inflation starts getting out of control. In 1916 there are a series of further problems, further major economic problems with food provisioning, with a series of very complex issues that the German economy has to face. And what happens is that, well, you know, once money loses value, a lot of other things gave value, right? So when there's an economic crisis, when you have monetary crisis and you don't know what to do, you buy stuff like literally. I mean, it's a bit like now in a way, you know, everyone is, everyone is investing in gold. And so what happens is that the art market becomes an object of investment and there's a flight quality, so a flight into tangible assets. And the art market is touched by it. And so you have ultimately a major transformation of the market. You have price developments that are difficult to explain in any other way than in fact there are new buyers who are coming and discovering the market. They don't know how much a certain work of art is worth. They have money to invest, so they'll just bid and put their money in something. And there's a rich, there's a super rich, but there's also less. Also just worried citizens who don't know what to do. And maybe they go for smaller lots because they feel that's a safeguard against monetary deterioration. And that's simply put what happens in, what happens in Germany and, and that starts happening around 1916 and that will continue and, and, and, and characterize also the market development after, after the war.
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Priya Gandhi
Yeah, absolutely.
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Madeleina Alvey
Phew.
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Priya Gandhi
And you're touching on this a little bit, but you talked a little bit about that collecting class and how it changes during the First World War and you just touched on that. I think this is a good bridge to talking a little bit about how that collecting class changes as the economy changes. So you talked a little bit about how it changes in Germany. How does it change in France and Britain?
- [44:32]
Madeleina Alvey
Yes. So I think France is really interesting and tragic. So I was talking about this kind of chemical reaction in, you know, in France, it's like an explosion. So, you know, the war starts in summer 1914 and, and the impact of the war on the French market is immediate. And that has to do with, well, with the, with the unfortunate position that France finds itself in. So what happens is that in 1914, ultimately, well, France is under attack. So the reaction, the first reaction is not to resume auctions after the end of summer. So usually there was a break, a summer break for all auctions. Auctions don't resume after the outbreak of war. The Louvre is closed. The French have seen, are seeing what happens in Leuven with the destruction of Leuven. They're worried, so they want to protect their art properties. And so there's no auctions. The city becomes a ghost city because so many are mobilized. And those who don't go and fight on the front flee Paris. They're afraid, so they leave Paris. So there are no auctions. And even if there were auctions, there would be no buyers because everyone's afraid, right? And on top of that, what happens is that there are major, there's a major expropriation and confiscation wave that targets enemies, the enemies of France, and those are German and Austrian dealers and collectors. I mean, all German businessmen are targeted by these measures. So all their properties are seized, confiscated, and they're sold at auction. They will keep being sold at auction even after the end of the war. So all these communities and the German community of dealers was actually the largest group of non francophone dealers in Paris. So basically, I mean, it's like your biggest foreign business community is just obliterated. They have to flee. They cannot remain. So you read about dealers with typhoid fever, you know, doing this adventurous Trip to just escape. And they leave everything they have, they leave their collections, they don't know if they'll ever see them again. And so what you have is really the disintegration hypothesis, right, Proven by. Yeah, just by. I mean, the whole landscape that emerges is one of the deep crisis stagnation. And the French market is in trouble. And that means that the collecting class is eroded. Right. I mean, the internationality of this market, the foundations just aren't there anymore. And France shows you this at its clearest and it shows you this because it's under attack. But that's also a market where then, you know, once you exclude foreign dealers, if you're a market that's so reliant on foreign supply and on foreign business power, then the consequences are dire. And you know, think about, if I'm not mistaken, before the war, roughly, you know, 20% of the revenue came from foreign collections. And you know, once you couple that with the fact that certain dealers are major business power and they've become your enemies and once you look at these measures, then you understand the impact is going to be great. And it's going to be not just. Well, it's going to be a long term impact. And that's what happens with France with the collecting glass. And I think France proves really well this disintegration argument I'm trying to make in the book.
- [49:10]
Priya Gandhi
Absolutely. And how does that compare to Britain?
- [49:14]
Madeleina Alvey
So Britain is interesting because they too have their distinct trajectory. So, you know, it's always the war, historical contingencies and the structural traits of a market that can explain how things work and why things. Yeah, why you have a certain story in Britain as opposed to France or Germany, for instance. And so Britain doesn't have to deal with the threat of physical destruction. And Britain, as I said, is a country that's reliant on a different type of capital, if you want than France. And Anglophone business networks are very solid and they're not touched by the war just because. Well, just because of our history worked out. Right. So there is this and then Britain doesn't have, unlike Germany, Britain does develop inflation, but it doesn't have the major inflationary problems that Germany has. So that's a different framework to start with. Get simplifying. And so then what happens is that auctions take place and you see a development that if you want, is almost opposite to the one you witness in Germany. And in Germany there is a financialization of the marketing in the sense that people go onto the market and they want their Money to be transformed in art. Right. In Britain, it's the opposite. There's a lot of tax pressure at this time, really a lot of tax pressure. And there's also an interest in investments. And this means that the art market is a very interesting place because you can monetize your art assets, so you can basically transform your art into money. And that is generalizing what happens, at least specifically a phenomenon that I'd say is very important in 1917. That's what happens in Britain, and that's. Well, that's a major difference to Germany. So you see in the markets where ultimately there's still activity, you see these financialization episodes. In France, you don't see them because what's happening is so dramatic that it's difficult for things to work that way. And I mean, considered that in France, the only auction of really international and important relevance is held in 1918. And that's where prices peak, but they peak because it's the Monet collection. So you. The Degas collection. Sorry. So you have really all of Europe coming to Paris, even though Paris is being bombarded. But that. That's an exceptional sale. That is absolutely not representative for what happens to France.
- [52:25]
Priya Gandhi
Yes, absolutely. And you mentioned comparing the British, French and German art markets to other areas of Europe. Could you give listeners a brief preview of the other markets you mentioned in the book?
- [52:41]
Madeleina Alvey
Yeah, so I think that's. The other markets I mention in the book are Switzerland and the Netherlands. And I also touch upon Scandinavia and Russia. So clearly the analysis is not as extensive as for the other countries, but they're important trade spheres. So Russia is interesting because Russian collectors were important in the market. You have figures like Morozov, like Shukin, who were major collectors of impressionist and modern art who were known in Paris. And what happens with Russia is that in 1917, Russia just disappears. So Russian collectors just disappear from the game because of the revolution. So their properties are collectivized. Their collections become part of, first small city museums and then of major Russian museums. And there are, you know, there are these scenes that a Russian writer called Ivan Bunin recalls of. You know, he writes in his memoirs, he was in. In Saint Petersburg, and he really sees how officials go in and out of these beautiful houses full of artworks and pile them up on the street. And then experts and collectors, who are often also the victims of the Russian Revolution, ultimately are the ones who help the Soviets organize this material, catalog it, understand what it is, because they have the expertise that clearly the new government doesn't have. And there are very interesting reports on these published by a Russian curator called Alexander Polozov, who stays in Russia after the revolution and then moves to Paris in 1919, if I'm not mistaken, and will become a major contributor for an important art. French art magazine. And so that. That's Russia. And Russia will come back to auctions when all these collectivized properties are sold in the 1920s. So not all of this, but a selection of valuable works of art, jewelry, general possessions are sold in the late 1920s in Germany in major auctions that have gone into history as the ox. So the Russian auctions. And that's, that's the moment where we see, yeah, a bit of. Of the old market coming back, but it's clearly, yeah, it's clearly under the guise of confiscation, expropriation and collectivation, collectivization measures. So not really something organic. And, and. Well, then there are these other really interesting areas, the neutrals. And you see that these markets don't. If you look, for instance, in a country like Switzerland, Switzerland doesn't have major auction centers. I mean, even to this day, auction houses aren't. It's not really a center for auctions, but it's a place where capital is and where money is and where there's the opportunity for artists to meet, gather, produce art during the war. And it's a safe space that enables people to meet. So there are even negotiations held by art dealers for a peace between France and Germany that take place in Switzerland. So it's a place that allows for a lot of cultural and trade opportunities still. And the First World War is actually the moment when Switzerland becomes an important financial market. It's no surprise. And that's also a moment where you see an expansion of. Of the interests in art. And after the war, Switzerland will become a really important basin for, for instance, German art to the point that the Swiss have to erect barriers because the Germans are trying to export so much art because they're broke and they, they want to monetize their assets that the Swiss have to put up barriers. And, and then you have the Netherlands. And that's a similar story of a country that allows for exchange, allows for commercial encounters during, during the war. That's a country that has a longer tradition of art markets. I mean, it's the art market country. So it's really an important. It's really country with, with an important history. And, and you do see that. I looked at tax records of Dutch dealers and I looked at the taxation on war profits, and they profited from the war. Like they had to pay taxes, quite substantial taxes on war profits. And that tells you there was a lot of business. Yeah, there was a lot of, there was a lot of. There was a lot of exchange, there were a lot of trade possibilities. Plus, you know, it's an area where you're neutral in the sense that you have experts who are not following a nationalistic agenda. So, you know, art historians with a certain renown who can keep, you know, producing certificates for work of art, certifying works of art. And, and those are places that even after the war, when there are still tensions, I mean, there's peace, but there are huge tensions even after the war. These places play an important role as trade hubs. So there's this integration, but there's also integration. So the narrative is complex, right? Absolutely. That's it.
- [59:49]
Priya Gandhi
Yeah. That's a great summary of something that is incredibly complex and that, you know, listeners are going to have to read your book to understand in a real way. Thank you, Madeleina. This was a lovely conversation. It was incredible to listen to you talk about something that you know so much about. Listeners can find Maddalena's monograph, the European Art Market and the First World War Art Capital and the Decline of the Collecting Class 1910-1925 on Cambridge University Press's website. Thank you, Madeleina.
- [60:24]
Madeleina Alvey
Thank you, Priya. And thank you everyone for listening.
- [60:40]
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