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Mahboob Qirvanian and Behnaz Mirzai, "Life of an Enslaved African in the Ottoman Empire and Iran" (U Toronto Press, 2025)
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Welcome to the New Books Network.
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Mohteza Hajizadeh
Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of New Books Network. This is your host, Mohteza Hajizadev. Today I'm honored to be speaking with Professor Behnaz Miuzai about a recent book that she has published with University of Toronto Press. The book is called the Life of an Enslaved African in the Ottoman Empire and the Autobiography of Mahboob Gheerani. Dr. Benaz Mizai is Professor of Middle Eastern History at Brock University and Senior Guest Researcher at Bonn center for Dependency and Slavery Studies at University of Bonn. Behnaz welcome to New Books Network.
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Dr. Behnaz Mizai
Thank you very much for having me.
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Mohteza Hajizadeh
Such a fascinating topic. It is, and I'm sure a lot of our listeners might find it surprising because I'm sure a lot very few people might have heard about slavery in countries like Iran because slavery is usually associated with the Western world in America. But before we get to talk about this book, can you just very briefly introduce yourself, tell us about your field of expertise and particularly African, American, African, Let's Afro Iranians or slavery in Iran, which is a very niche topic. And you are one of the very few experts in this area.
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Dr. Behnaz Mizai
I teach Middle Eastern history at Bach University in Canada, but most of my research is on the African diaspora in Iran and also slavery. History of slavery in Iran, but also experiment expanded beyond that gradually into the Indian Ocean and also the Mediterranean, Eastern Africa as well. Because of these two, this area in Africa and also Iran are very Middle east in general, very interconnected in terms of the trade. I have published books and I have produced films and basically the works that I have, and also photo exhibitions which I have had, all based on the fieldworks that I have done in Iran. In particular, in southern part of Iran, where the African people live, the descendants of African slaves live right now in Iran. In southern part of Iran, especially in Sistan and Balochistan, Hormuzgan in Khuzestan and Hormuzgan, and all these provinces along the coastal area of Iran, I have done field work, and also I have done field work in Zanzibar, in Tanzania. And basically based on everything that I have collected, the interviews, the visual materials which I have collected, the archival research which I have done in Iran and various countries, European countries, and also Gulf region, I have been able to produce all these research works, publications, the books, the films and the photos. And.
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Mohteza Hajizadeh
Yeah, and you mentioned that you've done some fieldwork in south of Iran. When I was researching, when I was reading this book and I did a bit of Google search and I saw your pictures in southern parts of Iran, that's where a lot of the descendants of, let's say, Africans who were trafficked to Iran live. And I myself, I didn't know anything about them until 10 years ago, which I feel kind of embarrassed being an Iranian, not knowing there was this practice of slavery in Iran. Let's just talk about this book. You have edited an autobiography that you found, and this autobiography belongs to someone called Mahboob Girwani. To set the scene, just tell us who Mahmoud Biirwani was. Where was he from? When was he enslaved, and how did he end up, you know, very briefly, we'll get to some of the details of his life, and I'm really keen to know how you found this manuscript.
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Dr. Behnaz Mizai
Okay, maybe I start with your second question. Well, when I was a student at York University, I was just working on my PhD thesis. I was Associated and actually was a research assistant at a center which was called Nigeria Hinterland Project and that was also associated with UNESCO. Basically we had a lot of activities going on in terms of the academic works. A lot of speakers would come. So it was basically very well known center that focus on the African diaspora. But in Africa, in Nigeria, because the name also tells Nigeria Hinterland Project. So a lot of people knew about artworks and the group that we were working researchers. And then I was approached by the grandson of Mahboob. The grandson of Mahboob, his name is Bobak. And right now he's a police officer in Toronto. He lives in Toronto. Actually he grew up in Canada and he lives with his family. So I was approached by Babak that he had that book, that manuscript actually. And Babak could not read Persian because he grew up in Canada and he just knew English and he didn't know about the content. But somehow in general he was told that his grandfather was kind of a slave. Thinks that he wasn't sure. But of course he knew all the family were black people. Black, Afro, Iranians, they were black people like everyone in the family. So he was curious about finding about his own. His own family. He wanted to learn about his own family and the story about his grandfather. So he gave me the copy. We scanned this manuscript. Basically this is a part of the manuscript. It's part of the private collection, you call it. The family owns it and they have it. And at that time, when you look at the manuscript itself, it starts a lot about general thing that you wouldn't really notice that this is so important. It talks about nature, about geographical places, about areas he's gone. And then you don't get a sense that really this is a very precious thing. It's general thing, right? It's general someone has. Is writing what he experienced. But for me at that time as a student, that was not a priority to spend time, a lot of time on that manuscript. I was working on my PhD thesis dissertation and I had to finish to graduate a good job. So I really had that copy. But once in a while Bobek was getting in touch with me, asking me, okay, what I'm doing, how are things progressing? And I was saying, you know, I am. I'm doing like, I'm busy a little bit. But the good thing that was that during all this period that I was working on my dissertation and then I started getting a job and teaching at Bach. Bobek and I, we were in contact and he put me. I asked him actually to put me in contact with the family. So the good thing is that I interviewed his Mahboobs, several children of Mahboob. And most of the children live in either Canada or US. Only one daughter is living in Iran. Her name was Akhdas. And now they all passed away, the children of Mahboob. And it was so fortunate that I was able to interview them and so collect information. Although they were very young when Mahbub passed away, but they had some memories or they had heard from their mother. And also I traveled to Iran and I interviewed Ardas. Ardas also helped me to. She took me to the cemetery, Imamzadeh Abdullah, where Mahboob is buried. And one of the children of Mahboob also is buried in Imamzadem Abdullah. So I took picture and collected information and came back. Then I started working and finding really more about focusing more on Mahboob's book after I publish my first book, because that was also one of my priority, to get tenure, right? I have to publish the first book. So I done that and then I focused really on Mahboop. And as I started reading this carefully, I came across some of the names that he was providing Mahboob. And I realized that how important Mahbou was. So he tells about his life, that as a child he was enslaved. He was born in Tunisia, in Zeus. And then he talks about. Writes about his family, how they were enslaved, how they were separated.
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Mohteza Hajizadeh
And then, yeah, it's. I saw something. There are a lot of good pictures in the book. And after reading the book, I started googling a little bit and I found out, for example, one of his sons who was a pilot. Apparently there is some information about him. And he was, I guess, the first. The rumor, not the rumor. I guess he was the first black Iranian pilot and unfortunately passed away in an air accident. That was the information that was out on the. I found some information on Facebook, but I found it amazing that. That this guy, he was a slave, came to Iran, he was freed, and then he established his family there, established his life there. And you've written about this story of how he found the manuscript. And that was to me an amazing story as well. And it just goes to show the importance of keeping those. Nobody knows what it contains, but it turns out to be a great book. And it also provides unique information about the experience of a. A slave in Iran. And if I'm not mistaken, this is the first autobiography of a slave from. In Iran from his point of view, Am I right?
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Dr. Behnaz Mizai
Yeah, that's correct. And I was going to actually talk about Ahmad the pilot because Ahmad is the father of Babak was the father, I mean he passed away. So Baalbek for that. It's kind of very emotional thing for Babak, he has the book and learning about his family because Babak was very, I mean, young a baby when he lost his father in that crash. And one of the important thing is that Mahboob himself was educated and he really put a lot of emphasis on education. And only children of Mahboob were educated, well educated. And then the family is very well educated. And then it is, it is Ahmad, Ahmad the father of Babak who compiled. Because this, this manuscript were in different pieces like. And then he puts all together and preserves. So now Ahmed's family and Barbeck, they are keeping this, this manuscript. So this is how it was passed on to me. Like the copy that I was able to, you know, get. And I translate it, I translate it. And this is the first, the first autobiography in not only in Iran, to my knowledge, any autobiography you can find in like this in the Ottoman Empire or even in the Indian Ocean in the context of the literature in the Indian Ocean, slavery or even Mediterranean to my knowledge. So this is the first one that was preserved and we have access to it. But Ahmed is also his life. Mahboob's son, the youngest son is very unique because he got the bursary, he travels to the U.S. he got training as a jet pilot. And actually he was very close to the family of the king, the son in law of the last king of Iran, Muhammad. So he was close to Khatam who was a pilot and son in law of the last king of Iran because both were pilot. So Muhammad was very high ranking. But is that Mahboob was a very unique person in a sense that he worked so hard to achieve where he was. And he really accomplished a lot from being a slave and a slave at the age of eight, was very young. All this hardship that he experienced, especially in Africa is very similar to the type of slavery we read in literature in regarding to the Atlantic slavery. Because he talks about chains, people were, you know, suffered a lot in the physical, mental sufferings of, of people and then the experiences that he had. But basically for Mahboob, he, he experienced life in Africa and he experienced life under the Ottomans and in Iran and his identity is shifting and his experience also are different in this, under these three regions that he, he, he moves on from one area to another when perhaps information for people who are not familiar when we're talking about the Ottomans. Well the area, the Arab regions is what now we are calling Saudi Arabia. That time is called Arabia. All this area or Iraq we're talking about the period that is prior World War I and the Ottoman Empire still is in power and all these region is controlled by the Ottomans. So they are not independent Arab states. They are all under the Turkish leadership. So this is why we call it the Ottomans. But mostly he is experiencing under the Ottomans the Arab countries he's traveling to like Arabia, Iraq, in all these countries until he comes to Iran.
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Dr. Behnaz Mizai
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Mohteza Hajizadeh
You, you, you mentioned that it's the only existing autobiography offer slave in in Iran, also Ottoman Empire and also Indian Ocean, which provides some unique information about how the slaves were treated back then. You also emphasize the fact that he put a lot of emphasis on education and he wrote this autobiography which means he was literate. And that's I guess some of the things that I found really interesting or let's say surprising how he was a slave and he was enslaved at a very early age. And I know that it's explained in the book but again if you could, and I'm asking a very general question so you will forgive me for this, how did he get so he was, he was enslaved in Ottoman Empire, moved to Iraq and then to Iran. Can you very broadly tell us about this trajectory and his education is what I'm really interested in. Where did he learn how to read and write and how many languages did he speak?
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Dr. Behnaz Mizai
I start from the time that he was an Islai. He was in Africa at the age of 8 in Tunisia with the entire family when his own family and also the whole entire village he was in a slave. And then the time period he spends that because he was sold and resold many times in Africa until he arrives in the Middle east in Jeddah in Arabia. He is nine. He was nine years old over there in Mecca. Again he was resold and the owner in Mecca he puts mahboob in a school to study. But it was for very, very short period, very short period because he was resold Again Mahboob. And this is the last time that he was sold and purchased by the Iranian, Iranian high ranking political and religious leaders in, in Mecca who were there in Mecca for pilgrimage. And when they, when they purchased Mahboob, they came back because they were residing in Najaf. And then he was put to study. He actually really liked to study. He wanted because he could see other, other children who would go to school and he wanted. And then that happened. So he first, of course there were no. Or there were very few modern schools. Most of the schools were Maktab Khani or Gurnik schools. And he learned Quran and Arabic, of course he learned Arabic. And then later on he was placed in Alevi, what he calls this the Alevi school in Najaf. And he learns mathematics, he learns French, so he knew several languages. And he was actually very, very smart. You could get the sense of his brightness by reading his memoir. So he became very well educated person. And in terms of the education, if you read the history of slavery in Iran, this is also a common thing that you come across that the owners were also sending their slaves to study to become educated. That is not uncommon. And that also goes back to the differences between the Atlantic slavery and also slavery in the Middle east or the Indian Ocean. Perhaps most of the many, actually many of the slaves who were taken from Africa to the Americas, they were Muslim already and they were educated, whereas that wasn't the case in the Middle East. So many of them were either kids, they were child or they were uneducated. So when they were brought to, especially in this case to Iran, they learned how to read and write.
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Mohteza Hajizadeh
I think a few years ago, I forgot the name of that famous. There was a famous Muslim scholar, African Muslim scholar, who was enslaved, brought to America and he wrote in Arabic and they found this manuscript, I forgot his name. I have a book about it. Yes, yes, that's right. Thank you very much. That's right. So when I was actually reading this book, I was constantly reminded of him and a lot of Muslim slaves who were enduring transatlantic slavery, who were the ones who knew how to read and write. And they were also the troublesome ones because they were the ones who are basically because they were Muslim, they didn't recognize the authority of the owner and they would foment rebellion. And I think it was, could be wrong. And I read somewhere, I think it was a book called the Slaves of Allah that in Latin America they banned Muslim slaves because they were the troublesome ones. But when I was reading your book, what I'm saying is that I was constantly reminded of the other slave that you just mentioned. I still can't pronounce the name. So sorry. But it's quite amazing how. Yeah, they put them to schools to learn, to be educated. And another question I have is about. And again, it's a terribly broad question. Maybe in two or three minutes, if you could give us the lay of the land about the practice of slavery in Iran and also Islamic. Did Islam or religious institution there justify slavery? And how common was slavery in Iran? I'm myself from southern parts of Iran, originally from Lard. And I do remember in my birthplace there was a black family. Had absolutely no idea and I've lost touch with them. I really want to go and ask to know how much they know about their grandparents. They look African, but they were Iranians there. And also I grew up in Shiraz, which was one of the centers for slave trades there. I haven't done really any research to go and explore the city. I wish I could. But anyway, tell us about the practice of slavery in Iran and also the role of religious institutions in either justifying or banning slavery.
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Dr. Behnaz Mizai
Yeah. Well, a little bit about the history of slavery in Iran and how it basically was practiced institution is that most of the slaves were domestic. They were put to work in the houses of the rich people and they had duties of, for example, caring for children or family in terms of the use of slaves, putting them in different tasks. It is very different from the Atlantic world. And also it impacts the treatment of the slaves. We look at slavery in the Ottoman Empire, for example, or Iran is very different from the Americans. Completely different. Because in the Americas everything was based on the plantation in a very harsh situation. We are not saying that slavery was good, but it is. We are talking about two different types of institutions. And the areas which you mentioned that you lived, for example, Shiraz, all these parts of Iran were very important center for where slaves actually concentration of that black African people because the trade route was from by sea. Most of them were. The majority were coming from the southern part from Zanzibar, for example, was one of the areas of the embarkation of slaves where they were transported. And then from the Indian Ocean coming to the Persian Gulf. And then they were distributed along all these areas where you know, the southern ports, the coastal area. And then some of them, of course we had African people were. Were used in farms, for example, in cotton plantation. But the. It was the plantation, it was very small scale. It was not like the Americas, as I said earlier. So the. The Slavery in Iran is also, not only is different from slavery in the Atlantic world, but also to some extent is different from the Ottoman Empire. Because in Iran it is very much connected to the, to politics and to the economy of the country in a sense that because of the hardship experiences of the difficulties people had and the heavy taxation during the Qajar period in the 19th century, the families, especially in the poorer area, like the Kerman or Sisan and Balutasan, they had to sell their own children or their wives. And also we had another issue is that the invasion of the Turkmens from north and north eastern part of Iran into Khorasan, all the way until they would come to the Baluchistan. So they were enslaving Baluti people and they were enslaving the Khorasani, basically Iranians. So that was a very, very harsh type of slavery that they were practicing. The Turkmens, they were mutilating Iranians slaves, they were training them, they were taking them back to sell. In Central Asia that was practiced and they selling and killing them. And it's a very, very harsh kind of slavery the Turkmens were practicing. And also we have not only Iranians were enslaved, Africans were imported into Iran, but also because there were constant war going on in the Caucasus area, we see the Circassians and Georgians were also enslaved. That part is very similar to what we see was happening in the Ottomans, because the Ottomans also were practicing that kind of slavery. They were enslaving the white people, Circassians from the Caucasus area. That was happening there as well. So it's a kind of complex in Iran that in terms of if you look at the different ethnic groups who were imported and exported, that stem from the fact that politics and also the economy of the country impacted the lives of people and the decisions they had to make, the hard decisions that they couldn't afford, the heavy taxes and then they had to sell when there is a drought, when they couldn't afford to pay the tax, then they had to basically sell their children. For example. There is a good book by Dr. Afsani Najmobadi, who talks about that. So it's very complex. In reference to your question about what is the role of the religion, when we talk about Islam, there is a theory and there is a practice. What really Islam says, what are the guidelines, what is Islamic law in terms of enslaving people is very different from what people in reality based on their own interests are practicing. It's completely different. Not because Iran was an Islamic country, everyone is following Islam and that was not the case. So there were people who called themselves Muslim. But that doesn't mean that practice of slavery was absolutely 100% was based on Islam. But the point is that the majority of these people, Africans were enslaved either in Africa by African themselves. Inside Africa they were enslaved and they were brought to the coastal areas. And there were heavy presence of Arab people from Arab countries who were purchasing these Africans and they shipped them and they took them and sold them along different, in different countries in Arab. The Gulf region, for example, the Arab Gulf countries, all the way to into Iran. In a sense that we talk, if we want to be very specific, there are. Slavery is allowed in Islam, slavery is allowed, but there are a lot of restrictions in terms of who you can enslave. You cannot enslave Muslim people. Well, here we see that many people who were enslaved were Muslim and they cannot even enslave people who belong to this religion. The official religions like Christians, Jews. So assuring. So what this is not the case. This is happening. But there are one important point that we have to realize is that there are a lot of recommendations in Islam for freeing slaves. So there are a lot of under many circumstances that Islamic encourages freedom and liberation of slaves. That was put into practice. And actually to some extent different Islamic denominations, there are some extent different minor differences. In theory, according to the Shia doctrine, slaves after seven years, after seven years of their purchase, they should officially be freed. So these are circumstances that we see in theory, but in practice we see a different, you know, approach.
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Mohteza Hajizadeh
And that's one of the things that I always find interesting that in some cases, as you mentioned, it's not really practice. But the fact that I'll give you an example. Like there was this another slave in Iran, Ziba Khanom. I read an article about her and it was to me it was interesting. It was his female slave that the owner married her, if I'm not mistaken. And then she was not a slave anymore. She was freed. But to me it was interesting how her son established a hotel in Yazd and he became a successful merchant. More of us, we see the same pattern here. There's a slave who comes here and establishes himself. His son becomes a pilot. And I did not know, as you mentioned, he. He was very close to king's son in law. These are just amazing stories to me.
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Dr. Behnaz Mizai
It's actually I want to add in here because you mentioned that he was. Ahmad was close to the royal family, but Mahboob himself perhaps that also goes back to your question about language because the King of Iran, the last king of Iran, Pahlavi, he wanted to marry Phosia. And then Fouzier was an Egyptian and then due for the wedding. When he wanted to marry and have that ceremony for the wedding, they were asking for someone who can speak Persian and Arabic, so can translate for these dignitaries who are coming from Egypt, Arab people, because they all speak Arabic. And so they hired Mahboob. Mahboob was hired for the wedding, who translated all this for the dignitaries as a Dilmarsh. They call it Dilmaj. So these are stories that Mansoor, his son was Salaim, you know, he had heard from the mother. Yeah. So it's interesting that he himself, Mahku, was accomplished a lot. And he was, you know, very close. It's not that kind of separation that we can see. It's not just Mahboob, but also many of it. There are so many pictures that these African people were brought and they were attached to the royal family. The. For example, and they were part of that, the household.
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Mohteza Hajizadeh
The. Yeah, they're right. These stories are quite amazing. You know, how slave was able to rise up to such high levels that he was even able to be the. To be the interpreter or translator for the king. And apart from his travels or his mandatory travels, because he was a slave. But when he came to Iran, can you tell us how he became free and then what did he do afterwards? Because the autobiography talks about his travels across Iran, cities such as Mashad, Tehran, and also his reflections on the changing society at that time. It was a turbulent era in Iran's history as well. Can you tell us about his story of freedom and then his travels in Iran?
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Dr. Behnaz Mizai
Well, in terms of the time, that specific time about his freedom, he has not mentioned. But the fact is that when he writes actually in his memoir that when he was purchased by the Iranian religious and political leaders Ayatollah Mozandarani and Sheikh Esare Rashdi in Mecca, when they purchased, they. They. He started crying. And then they said, don't cry. We are your fathers, you are our child. And. And the way he. He basically demonstrates in. In a sense that he gives us a picture of his life after the last purchase in Mecca by the Iranians. You don't feel. You. You don'. He. He was a slave, basically. He was a child. He was. He was nine years old. And. And then he. He was attached to the family and he. He was serving the family as well. It seems that he was not, in a sense that you feel he is a real. He was a real slave. And that's interesting because he comes to Iran. When he travels and he comes to Iran, there are a couple of cases that he has to leave Iran or he crosses the border between Iran and Iraq or the Ottoman Iraq. And he mentions explicitly that the family he was living with, they provided him the identification card that means a passport to cross the border. Because the borders were also controlled by the British. And in order for him to be able to freely cross the borders, he had to be a free person. So he had that idea, identification card, a passport, which called. And then of course, he was presenting this to the authorities or the people who were controlling the borders. So basically there is no sign that you feel he is put into the context of slavery, although he was initially purchased. Yeah, of course he was purchased. But this you feel that kind of the transitioning from being a slave to someone who is a servant. And he was serving the family. He was serving the family. He was very loyal and he was very attached to, to the family, to the family of family. Because he was purchased by Isaq Alashti. He was himself Alashti was also a high ranking Mushtahid. And then when he comes to Iran, he travels to Iran in 1911, he stays with the brother of Isaq al Rashri, whose name was Ismail Rashri. He also was a high ranking Mujtahid, Ismail Rashri. He also married Zahra, Zahra Kafai, who was a daughter of a high ranking Mujtahid in Iran. So basically his attachment to this high ranking mujtahid and Ulaymu, religious scholars and political leaders of Iran, provided a way for him also to basically live freely and in contact with the high ranking people and serving them. And he really liked these people. And he tells when Ismail passed away in Tehran, and then Zahra, the wife of the owner, she receives a message from the family because now she is a widow. And they ask her to leave with Mahboob. At that time, Mahboob, also married, to leave Tehran and to go reside in Mashhad to live with Zahra's brother Muhammad. In Masher, Mahboob was following Zahra. Mahboob with his wife was living with them and helping them. And then there is a case that happens, a case, a problem that arises. They accuse him of stealing something in the house. He says that was not correct. But the fact is that in Mashhad Mahboob was expelled. Mahboob was expelled and he was not happy with that, that he had to leave the family. And during all this time period he was working as a servant for the family. He was paid, he was receiving salary and income. And he writes that he wasn't happy about that, that he had to leave. And that is actually a case in the history of slavery in Iran. Expelling slaves was a kind of punishment for a slave and losing all those attachment to the owner and to the family that those ties. So and this is a time that you can see he is living independently. He was not happy with that difficulties that he explains. It comes to Tehran and the situation in Tehran politically was so bad economically as well. The hardship that then he had to leave with his family, Iran, and he goes back again to Iraq, again stays with Esagirashti, and then he comes back with Esagirashti a year later to Iran again until he passed away. But that's. That is very obvious from his memoir that that connection with the slavery that we are defining in literature as someone who is completely attached and has no freedom, you cannot find this while he is in Iran.
- [46:28]
Mohteza Hajizadeh
And another part of the book that I found interesting, his original name wasn't Mahboob Tiwane, right? He was renamed several times. And religious conversion, that's also part of the narrative as well. How much do we know about his religious conversions? Like, oh, he was enslaved by Muslims and he became a Muslim based on.
- [46:54]
Dr. Behnaz Mizai
The information he's providing in terms of the religion, he clearly mentions in Mecca that he was Sunni Muslim. And then when the Iranians purchase him, he had to practice the Shia Asna Ashari Islam in terms of the practice, the prayers and everything that has to be that to be followed in that context. But he was a very devoted Muslim. And he doesn't really emphasize on the aspect of being Shia or Sunni, although he was converted and that is as part of the practice of slavery. Usually slave owners converted their slaves on their porch as slaves. They converted these slaves into their own religion. In the cases, for example, if they were Baha' I or they Sunni or Shia, all different types of whether Muslim, non Muslim, didn't matter, but they converted them into their own religion. And you can see also that example in the Atlantic world as well, because the slaves who were taken there, if they were Muslim, many of them were Muslim, they were converted to Christianity. And that that was important part of that practice of slavery. But in terms of also identity shaping identity of slaves. And in this case Mahboop religion is part of it. But also naming is also as an indication of that their identity is that he Mentions that in Africa he was given the name Zugul and then Zayden. And then in Mecca he was given the name Almas, means diamond. And then Mahboob, beloved. But that is the last. First name of Mahboob, which is on his grave is also written. But his last name is. Which refers to the place he was coming Gram Cairo on Tunisia. But identity, his identity is basically shaped by three different geographical locations he resided and he experienced. In Africa, of course, he was African. And then in the Arab countries under the Ottomans, he was kind of part of that Arab identity. And he fluently spoke Arabic. And then in Iran, we also learned Persian and became Iranian. So it's a kind of that transformation of his identity from being a slave to someone who is. Was free and then someone who belongs to so many different places and his attachment to the Arab culture, to Iranian culture. And he marries. His wife is also Iranian, white Iranian. Her name was Masocha Yusuf Gay. And he actually, when he was expelled by. By the last people, he was living in Mashhad. When he comes back to Tehran, he had no place to leave. And he was living with the family of Massumah, his wife. So that kind of connection that he had shapes as a unique identity of Mahboob.
- [51:09]
Mohteza Hajizadeh
And one final question. I mean, even these days in refugee studies, they talk about how the act of writing is an act of resistance or it's therapeutic. He was one of the few slaves who wrote his life story. And he went and you described the act of writing as therapeutic for Mahmoud. What do you think he hoped to achieve by documenting his life? Even though he knew at that time, maybe that he knew he was a ordinary person, but he insisted on writing his life story, which of course we are happy he did because we have this unique document.
- [51:51]
Dr. Behnaz Mizai
Now, actually, in the 19th century, that was a custom, writing in your memoir, that was something that was very common, actually. And then you can see that many people, not just the elites, were writing. People who knew writing were educated to some extent, or they went to Mektaani, they were writing. Actually, my own grandfather, I was told that he wrote two books, but we don't have access to this book. And, you know, this is how my last name is Mirza. Mirza means author. And this is what the name is given to last name or based on, you know, you were the grandfather. My grandfather was, you know, well educated and he knew Russian and also he knew French. But I don't have any evidence or documents to work on that. But in, in, in, in that case, well, He. He was in the circle of very well educated people. The Olema. The Olema, who that is. Is something that is part of their life. Why Thing. Right. Why think we call it resale or they write it and their thesis. They write it as part of that. The tradition of the religious people to write. And also the elites also were writing. We have some books written by the elites or the political figures of the 19th century, early 20th century as well. And also in his book, the book itself, when you read the manuscript itself, it's very emotional. It impacts you really. It influences you in a sense that you feel the difficulties that he experienced as a child. He was separated from the family and he. All the time, throughout the whole manuscript, always he mentions the name of his father. His father and the difficulties that he has experienced. Now I think for him, writing is a tool that expressing himself at that moment. Maybe not thinking about the future. Yeah, at that moment that when he. He writes all his feelings is something that he achieved in a sense that helps him to comforts him in a way that he realizes. This is the time. It seems that the time that based on the writing and also the papers he wrote, it seems that he starts writing continuously. There is no interruption. And he was. It seems that he's. He's in a moment that he. He feels peace in his life that. And he has time that allows him exactly to. Allows him to put everything down in a paper. And that's opportunity that he has had at the moment that. And unfortunately we do not have the complete. It seems it's not a complete manuscript because it stops in 1921. In 1921. And he passed away in 1939.
- [55:38]
Mohteza Hajizadeh
You don't have to.
- [55:40]
Dr. Behnaz Mizai
Yeah. And the journey that he has had, the journey from Iraq with the family explains until he is in Qom and the destination was in Tehran. And this is where he stops. Maybe some pages were missing or somehow that stopped.
- [56:06]
Mohteza Hajizadeh
Just one final question. I know that you've recently finished this book and writing a book takes a long time, but is there any other project that you're working on currently? Any other books that you might expect sometime soon?
- [56:18]
Dr. Behnaz Mizai
Well, yes, I'm working on a new book and that is a broader project because I had work on previously. I had work in Zanzibar. I'd done field work in different countries and also Iran. I'm producing another documentary film. Documentary about the cultural practices of African diaspora in the Indian Ocean and the Middle east and also in. In the Mediterranean region. Mediterranean countries like Tunisia. I have traveled also to Turkey many times. I actually was recently in Turkey for one of the occasions they had the African, Afro, Turkish people, which is called Dinah Bayami. Actually, I was there two weeks ago and I am traveling again soon to do more interviews with them. And I'm writing a book that which focuses on the cultural practices of the African people, African Diaspora, Connecting the Middle east to the Indian Ocean, Africa, Mediterranean.
- [57:32]
Mohteza Hajizadeh
That's fascinating. I certainly hope to be able to speak to you about that book on New Books Network when it comes out, but I'm guessing it's a little bit far away. A year or so maybe. But yeah, certainly hope to be able to speak to you about that book. Just wanted to thank you. This was such a fascinating book to me and I really, really learned a lot to see, you know, the history of your own country through the eyes of a person who doesn't belong there. He was slave and then he was freed and how he established himself in the country. It was a fascinating read and lots of. And the images were also wonderful when. Because this is, I guess, what makes those stories more tangible, that these are not. He's not just a slave. He has a personal history. He has a family there. It's just amazing to see how you found the manuscripts. And then you were talking about his children mostly being in Canada now. I really, really enjoyed reading the book and I strongly recommend it to our listeners, especially if they're into Iranian studies or African studies as well. The Life of an Enslaved African in the Ottoman Empire and Iran, published by University of Toronto Press. Dr. Ben Ozmiizay, thank you so much for your time on New Books Network.
- [58:49]
Dr. Behnaz Mizai
Thank you so much for having me and for your time. Thank.
- [59:06]
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