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- [00:01]
A
Welcome to the new books network. Welcome to the Gastronomica podcast on the New Books Network. I'm your host, Dan Bender, a member of Gastronomica's editorial collective. Today I'm joined by Sarah Elton and Maya Hay to discuss their newly published special sections on food and microbes, available in issues 26.1 and 26.2 of Gastronomica, the journal for food studies. Today, we're looking deep, deep inside the food system to the microbes upon which we depend and those we've learned to fear. Sarah Elton is an assistant professor in social and behavioral Health Sciences and the Akin Chair in Critical Qualitative Health Research Methodology at the Dalla Lana School of Public Health. She is published widely in social science and medicine, environmental humanities and, of course, gastronomica and many others. She's also the author of the bestselling books Locavore and Consumed Food for Finite Planet. Maya Hay is an interdisciplinary researcher focusing on the ways that we live with and understand microbes like bacteria, molds and yeast. She is the author of the book Singing with Invisible Worlds, Fermenting Sake on microbial Time, and this is forthcoming with the University of Minnesota Press. She's currently based in Stockholm at KTH Royal Institute of Technology, and I am in Toronto and. Welcome, Sarah. Welcome, Maya.
- [01:56]
B
Thanks for having us.
- [01:58]
C
Hello, Maya.
- [02:00]
A
You have a background in dietetics in food studies and communications, and yet somehow you've ended up at microbes. How did you come to microbes with that background?
- [02:13]
B
That's a very great question. So I first fell in love with food because of its health potential. And while I was studying dietetics, I was interested in going beyond prescribing what is good, what is good for your health. And in trying to critically interrogate that prescription, I tried to look at different diets and different practices around the world, and fermentation was the only practice that really spanned both geographies and time. And so with fermentation, you know, the unique feature about it is that microbes are the ones transforming foods from substrate to a ferment. And it's really been a fascinating journey to really get into what are these microbes doing and how do we know? Science knows one thing, but so does my grandmother, the nonnas, the aunties the world over. And that has really opened up questions about knowledge, whose knowledge, what counts as knowledge, what counts as microbial knowledge, et cetera. So that's been my journey.
- [03:17]
A
And Sarah, you've also been working on a range of different kinds of knowledge beyond science and Medicine, you're a health researcher and you're also a food studies scholar. And you began your academic work thinking about urban gardens and the relationships of gardeners and plants. How did you move from the open air to the gut biome?
- [03:39]
C
You know, I was thinking about microbes purely in a personal context. So I've been studying and writing about food systems for a really long time. And during the pandemic, there was a confluence of issues in my family, my nuclear family and my larger family of different people having different health issues, inflammatory conditions that, that arose around the same time. And my sister and I, my sister, who is an ecologist, we both started on with all that spare time we had reading the microbiology literature, and we were reading and reading all about the, the microbiome. And this was before there were podcasts there. There weren't. It was really hard to learn about the microbiome at that time. It's hard to believe in 2020, considering where we are now. And the, you know, the, the hash, the hashtag gut talk being. I'm, I'm not on TikTok, but I hear it's very big. And so we were reading all these papers and that's all we could talk about. And then she, I, she said, you know, this is your job. You are a food system scholar. Like, you can, you could do this for work. And I was like, I can. And so in fact, I was working on produce supply chains and thinking about plants, and I was like realizing, hey, wait a second, this is all about microbes, because microbes are everywhere. And Dan, it was you who told me when I was describing, when I was framing my, my, my research project and telling you about, about what, how I was conceiving of things. You said, sarah, you're really, you're really plantifying microbes to, to make it fit with your, your produce supply chain, plant work. And, but as this has evolved, I am now fully like thinking and breathing and seeing microbes everywhere. It really does. As we, as we wrote in our introduction to the second issue, like, it really changes this learning about these, these invisible, well, mostly largely invisible to us, things that, that we live with all the time. Seeing them figuratively is, really changes your experience of the world.
- [06:02]
A
You know, there's such a remarkable array of essays, something for everybody of every food interest in these two issues. It really is a turning point for me in reading these and how I teach food studies. And in the coming weeks we're going to hear from authors of specific studies. Today we get that big overview. And Sarah I'm also not on TikTok. So to prepare for this, I actually decided to walk down to the supermarket and to look for the microbes and to look for their absence, too. And they were, as you say, everywhere. There was packaged kimchi for sale. There was kefir promising thousands, millions of different helpful bacteria. The yogurt promised a live, active culture. There were probiotic beverages and all kinds of strange colors and flavors. There was nutritional yeast, and at the same time, there was all kinds of packaging. And there were people studiously going up and down the aisles, mopping things, trying to make sense of the combination of hygienic seals, plastic packaging upon plastic packaging, and advertisements for microbes. And the big realization I had is I took biology in high school and once in university and I learned all about Linnaeus, and it just doesn't seem to fit as we understand microbes in the food system. The Linnaean system of families and genus and species doesn't really fit. And I realized I don't have a good definition for microbes. So, Maya, what's yours?
- [07:46]
B
The definition that I usually give is any organism below the human threshold of sight. And it's a very, some might say a lazy definition, but I think it also speaks to the human microbe relationship in the sense that microbes are always there. We might even have descended from them as a great, great, great, great ancestor, if we look at the sort of way evolution has worked. But if we look at this phylogenic tree, right, that Linnaeus tried to categorize into and organize and structure into these families and classes and genuses and species, we find that microbes are really all over on that phylogenetic tree. And so it's really hard to classify them according to, let's say, Linnaeus model. So, yeah, I go with the definition of any species below human threshold of sight.
- [08:45]
A
About you, Sarah, what's a microbe for you?
- [08:48]
C
Well, such an interesting question because, of course, I. One has to define it. When you write an academic article, you have to define your terms. But what do I. But maybe for our conversation today, I might think of, like, what is my microbe imaginary? Like, how do I conceive of microbes? Because we cannot. We. We cannot see them. Though there is like one microbe, apparently, that you can see with your eyes. Maya, I think, knows more about this than I do. I've never seen one myself, to my knowledge. Perhaps I have, but. But my microbe imaginary is changing, and it's of this, in this, this collective. Like, I see the microbe as a collective, so they're they're microscopic and they're. And we cannot see them and they're, you know, including viruses, bacteria, other things like archaea, and we can't. But then it's in their collective that they have this, this agency in our lives. So I see, I really see them as a community, as communities, as ecosystems that we live with. And I do think about them every day, not only in my work, but in my, in my personal life because they're so interesting and they're so much a part of me. And I do as know I am a public health scholar. So, you know, I do, much to my family's dismay, think and talk about an. Certain idea of health a lot, though I'm censored sometimes in the home front. So I think about, like, eating the microbes and where are they in, in my kitchen and what delicious things are they producing? And I, and I collaborate with the microbes to. By making I, you know, fun things like June, which is a kind of kombucha that's made with honey and green tea, or I have two different kinds of coleslaw, not coleslaw, what's it called? Sauerkraut, fermenting on my counter at the moment. You know, the. So. So what? How do I define a microbe? I define a microbe as, as, of course, a bacteria, virus, et cetera, these small things, but also a community, a companion, a source of inspiration, and something fun to play with or some things fun to play with.
- [11:14]
A
Go ahead, Maya.
- [11:15]
B
Yeah, I like this idea of collective, especially because increasingly, you know, scientists are talking about microbes in terms of consortia. Right. There's always going to be a diversity and a multiplicity there. It's not just all E. Coli, one colony standing there waiting, you know, lurking in the corner. It's going to be a whole gaggle and a whole array of different species in any given environment, and that they can change. Another thing that I thought about is that, you know, for instance, fungi, right, That's a category. But, you know, this was a great conversation that I had with Michael Hathaway, right, who's part of the trilogy of books from the Matsuke Research Group. For instance, Anit Singh, Michael Hathaway and Shiho Satsuka, they're all writing about the matsutake mushroom and, and trying to understand fungal worlds. And we had this great conversation of, well, is what you're finding the same thing as what we're finding about microscopic fungi? Right. And the answer was kind of no, not really. And so there are, of course, certain Parallels and certain overlaps, like the role of humidity. Right. Or the role of temperature, the role of hyphae, and the sort of networks that these can form, that fungal creatures can form. But when it comes to maybe some of the particularities, our research really starts to diverge based on size. And so I think there's an interesting way that microbes, because of their ubiquity and because of their relative size to humans, make them, in a way, a challenge and a charismatic creature to study.
- [13:03]
A
Maya, do you think at some point we're going to move past this just general context of microbes, perhaps, as we get more comfortable with them, both as academics and as cooks and consumers? Do you think we're going to get to the point where we really find ourselves talking about yeast, fungi, bacteria, and we start thinking instead of this connective way in a kind of comparative way? In other words, for your next special issue, is it going to be all about yeast?
- [13:34]
B
That's a great question. I think there is room to be a bit more discerning now, and I think that not just for academics, but also for general populations. And in my forthcoming book, I kind of conclude with, how is it that we know and can differentiate between redwood trees, seagrass, and a sunflower, but we cannot differentiate between bacteria, molds, and yeast? Right. And so the category of microbe is as vast and general and broad as the category of plants, as the category of animals.
- [14:16]
C
Right.
- [14:16]
B
And so, and then, of course, the a rebuttal might be, well, you know, we can't see them, so it's harder to, you know, differentiate the different, you know, the colors or the different characteristics, physical characteristics. And then my counterargument to that is, well, most people who can hear can hear the difference between a mosquito, a bumblebee, and a fly. And I can relatively gauge my danger with those sounds. Right. So I'm not using my sight for this, but I'm still able to discern between these three different types of species.
- [14:56]
A
You know, it would be an interesting study to give consumers, just walk up to somebody in a supermarket and give them some crayons and a piece of paper and ask them to draw what they think microbes look like.
- [15:10]
B
No, absolutely not.
- [15:11]
A
You don't think so? Okay.
- [15:13]
B
No, absolutely not. Because what you're going to get is the COVID virus. That's the shape you're going to get. It is incredible what Covid messaging has done. It was. And I'm sure, Sarah, you have more to say about this as a public health expert, but it is incredible just how much microbe has become synonymous visually and imagery wise with the SARS CoV2 sphere with prongs out of it.
- [15:41]
A
Absolutely. And I think that that's part of why. That your word choice in our conversation thus far and in these essays is so deliberate. I mean, the words that you've used thus far that I've written down here, and I just want to underline them. Right. Is community. Sarah says collaborator, you said. And Maya, you talked about relations and relationships. Sarah, the word relations and relationships, that's a big turn in how we understand microbes as food researchers and also in some ways as consumers in an industrialized food system. Why is that the word you want us to use?
- [16:25]
C
Relationships conjure up this idea that there's something that goes back and forth between two entities. And so I think. And there's a connection. There is perhaps even an interdependence. There's something. Not necessarily interdependence, because maybe it could be something negative in that relationship, but there's this crosstalk there. I'm borrowing words from the scientific literature there. But there are two parties. It recognizes the two things. In food studies, just like in food systems, often, you know, the human has been seen as the. As the actor, the dominant, the person who farms, who tills the land, who harvests the plant, who ships it to market, who transforms that into food and cooks it and eats it. The human is the actor. But if we think about relationships, then there are other actors in the food system too. So they could be plants, as I've written about before, or animals or microbes that are also doing things. So I think that's the value of thinking relationally in food studies, is recognizing the other things that are working with humans to produce food and nourish us and connect us.
- [17:52]
A
Maya, Sarah used the word collaborator, and I, we're on video here. I could see your eyes sort of light up at that word. Why do you like the word collaborator?
- [18:03]
B
I actually think that there's room to complicate collaboration in the sense that I think collaborator and cooperation, and even maybe the term symbiosis connotes this kind of rosy mutual back scratch. And we kind of. We both win, we both gain something out of it. And I think that there's a danger in assuming that microbes as a whole category will engage in that. And I'm not saying that's what is written in any of our papers or that's not. I'm not trying to put words into mouths here, but I think that if we look at the term co labor. I think there's a very generative way of thinking about labor relations. Right. Because if we look at all the different ways that microbes are instrumentalized and used in the food system, we're really counting upon the metabolic labor of bacterias and yeast especially, and we're also looking at their reproductive labor. And so, for instance, from fermentation, where I come from, if those two types of labors are not accounted for, then that fermentation will not proceed. Right. And so I think that there is room to maybe complexify and nuance. What do we mean when we say collaboration and that we're collaborating with microbes? Right. What exactly are the labor relations that are at play here? And I think that opens up greater questions of political economy and political ecology in a food system that is inherently more than human and inherently microbial.
- [19:45]
A
And that's going to get to some questions about agency within. Within the food system, the agency of microbes, which is one of the most striking ideas in this, in this piece. Sarah, I'm going to turn to you on this notion of collaboration, too.
- [20:01]
C
I was thinking in response as listening to Maya talk, how and many other scholars have pointed this out too, with microbes, it's like it's all about the binary. It's always been about the binary. You know, microbes in public health, generally bad. You know, they're the pathogens, they're the things that are going to make food rot or make us sick.
- [20:20]
A
Those are those Covid pictures in the supermarket with crayon.
- [20:23]
C
Yeah, exactly. Like, you know, kill 99.9% of germs with this product. You know, that's, you know, that's one view of microbes. And then now we've discovered, oh, wait, they're really good for our health. So now it's like, microbes are great. We love microbes, we want to eat them, we want to take probiotics, et cetera. But really, as, as Maya was referring to. Also, there's this, like, there's a whole scale of microbes. They're neutral microbes. There's lots of microbes that do things we don't know. There are lots. There, there's. There's still microbes that do a lot of bad things, even though we know that probably most of them are, are probably don't. And so in our rush to embrace or learn about or think about microorganisms and microbiomes and all the good things they do, we also have to make sure we keep them contextualized in, like this, in, in this, the, the, the full color scale of, of, you know, of the rainbow can, I mean, that's a bad metaphor. But we can keep like, we have to be conscious of how they can do all sorts of things and we don't know what they all are and it's not all good.
- [21:37]
A
So where do you think about microbes and the microbiomes in the food system? And just for our listeners call it some of the places where we know that they're there and others where they're maybe less obvious. But every bit is crucial. I found the obvious ones. Those live active cultures, where are they obvious and where are they hidden?
- [22:02]
C
I think if you know about microorganisms and their role in life, you will find them to be literally everywhere. Like they are in the, from the soil to the processing plant. Even like for example, I was in visiting as a food systems researcher because I do work on produce supply chains. So I visit lots of different food system sites for another project. And yet microbes creep up, crept up because for example, I was in an apple packing facility and the man who owns it explained how there are a whole kind of microbe that adapt to the, the sanitation of the apple packing facility. So they are, you know, sanitizing, disinfecting to get rid of microbes to have safe apples. And yet this will create an ecological niche for a whole different community that's adapted to those particular, to that particular setting. So they're, they're literally everywhere. They're in the supermarket, they're on my apple, they're, they're, they're in the cheese. As, as, as you said, they're in many products. Like they're just everywhere. So how we choose to engage with them as scholars, and I think this is a point that Maya and I made in both our pieces and all the pieces together make this, that, that there's just so much opportunity to think about microbes in the context of power, how it operates today, how it operated in the past, how the past continues to operate in the present through microbes or the relationship between people and microbes and how does that affect their health or their way of being in the world.
- [23:49]
A
And it gives us some insight into what happens when we interfere in their communities. Maya, I work in wine. We share an interest in fermentation. I tend to be most interested in what they've eventually produced. And one of the things that struck me in reading your pieces is that while there is this collaboration or co labor as you talk about, many of the microbes that show up in our food system are ultimately ingested. The taste of champagne comes from dead and decaying yeast. That's what gives that biscuity aroma and flavor that, well, I, among others, love and some listeners may have just ceased to love. We ingest these microbes, and so is it still fair to call it collaboration if we're killing them off? Or is this the wrong way of thinking about this? Do we need to think in a whole new sets of terms of relationships?
- [24:55]
B
Yeah, I think that's a great setup for maybe talking about how. Talking about two things. I think there's one issue about what is unique about microbes, right? We ingest plants all the time. We ingest animals all the time. We ingest minerals all the time. Do we call that collaboration? Right? We ingest them. We don't. So what is it about. What is it about, uniquely microbes that allow us to then reach for that term? And I think there's maybe a lot to scrutinize here, again, at the level of politics. The other thing I think is worth bringing in is because microbes are everywhere, which we've established before, and because microbes are part of our health and every living being, what we start to see is a collapse between health and environment, right. That it really brings to bear. We are walking tubes. I'm not the first person to say this, certainly not the first food scholar to say this. Lisa Heltke has been saying this for many, many years, right? Saying we are walking tubes. And in that regard, whatever microbes that we ingest are then returned back into the environment. And it's not so simple as, you know, E. Coli in E. Coli out, or, you know, acidophilus in, acidophilus out. There is certainly transformations along the way at the level of gut, at the level of wastewater treatment facilities, right? We can talk about all kinds of pathways that microbes traverse after ingestion. And so I think that what microbes has the power to do, and this goes back to Sarah's comment on binaries, is to really bring health discourse and environmental discourses together. And there's already work being done in this manner when we start to look at, for instance, planetary health, right? Or even with certain public health frameworks, there's, for instance, one health and its critiques, right? There's all kinds of different ways to kind of go about these questions of how to bring individual health, community health into the same conversation as environmental health and environmental justice and environmental politics into one.
- [27:23]
A
So, Maya, how do we move past as a researcher? What's the ways in which academics should move past this binary of the good microbes, the ones we like and the ones that in our imaginary are out to get us.
- [27:43]
B
You just do, you know, it's, I think, as simple as that.
- [27:48]
A
Was there a point for you where you realized in your own research that you had found a way of thinking past that it's attention, and I think it's attention readers will find in your piece as words like benevolence appear, which is a fascinating word. But did you find a moment for yourself where you had found a pathway out of the binary?
- [28:13]
B
I will first say that, you know, I'm trained by feminist theorists, and so for me, thinking beyond and past binaries or critiquing them comes from a long lineage of understanding that binaries are another way of saying hierarchies and that there is always going to be a power relation that is imbalanced and then kind of seeing that also in STS discourse, if we're going to talk academics seeing that kind of come back up in asymmetries and symmetrical relations. So I think the key here is not only to acknowledge the hierarchical work and the power work that is given structure by a binary, but I also think the other even maybe more crucial bit is what does the binary occlude, right, by putting these polar opposites as a dualism that definitely do not touch what is being obscured, occluded, overlooked as a result. And I think that's the difficult part of trying to design research projects or find different corpuses for research that allow you to really look at what else is out there that does not get captured in the binaries.
- [29:37]
A
Well, let me actually turn it to you, Sarah, and ask you the same question, but this time from the policy angle, public health, the nutrition, the food recommendation, the food chain regulation angle, what's the benefit and how do we do it of thinking beyond the binary?
- [29:57]
C
Yeah, well, well, okay. I was about to provide an answer to your question, and then you said beyond thinking the binary beyond the binary. So that, that's complicating what the, the answer I was formulating in my brain. I think policy work is very different from academic work, and sometimes challenging the binary is challenging if you're trying to encourage policy change. So, for example, maybe in a policy context, because right now most food safety regulations are going to be about how do we keep food safe for people. Like, let's make sure we keep that the, the, the food on the shelf that people buy does not have contain pathogens that will sicken them. And so there are Actually, lots of additives in food products that sicken people in different ways. So it might not give them food, what we would call food poisoning or botulism, worse than food poisoning. However, the additives are actually damaging our microbial ecosystems, killing the microbes themselves, damaging the mucosal lining, which is a habitat for microorganisms in our colon, for example, or providing some azo dyes, provide a chemical in the body that some microbes metabolize and turn into something, a metabolic byproduct that kills cells. And so that food is, is not that food. That food that has been kept safe is not actually considering the beneficial roles that microbes play. So, so I think in terms of policy, we're really at the point where we need to like, open our minds to the idea that we live with ecosystems that are, that are central to our health, from the microscopic to the planetary scale. And so this is what that work that Maya was talking about in terms of planetary health and one health. And lots of, lots of scholars are saying to policymakers like, okay, we need policy that recognizes that human health is inextricable to the biosphere from, from the micro to the macro. And in terms of policy that has to do with microbes in the food system, we need to make sure that, like, policy has to change, like, to recognize the other side of that binary. Like, forget about all the other nuances. Like, we're still so stuck, stuck in the. In, in, in with thinking of microbes as, as bad in terms of policy. Like, dissolving the binary is many steps away. We need to just, we need to recognize that there's more than just one way of looking at them.
- [33:09]
B
Yeah, I really want to follow up on this, Sarah. That policy is hard to recommend when everything is contextual in the microbial world. Right? Microbes are absolutely context specific. And Dan, I'm sure you can relate with, you know, where are champagne bottles, you know, stored and where are they made? You know, it matters. Place matters and environment matters and context matters. And so when microbes are so context specific, how do you implement one policy for a level of a community or a population? Right? That's really difficult. And I'll give you an example of that sort of context specificity. That was a bit of an aha moment for me where I was looking into brewing at. I was into brewing beer, and I was looking at what, what classifies as a contaminant for beer. And one of the sort of telltale contaminants was a bacteria called Lactobacillus Delbruecki. I thought, huh, wait, I've seen this name before. Where have I seen it? And it's on the back of a yogurt label saying, you know, this is the live probiotic cultures, right? So I'm thinking, great, so one microbe, two different contexts. One it's considered a contaminant and another it's, you know, being praised, even a value added. For this yogurt product, this gets even better because Lactobacillus dobroechi also shows up and UTIs urinary tract infections. So we go from probiotic to contaminant to full on pathogen to the human body. Right.
- [34:56]
A
Let alone antibiotics.
- [34:58]
B
There you go.
- [34:59]
A
The implications of these pieces is really vast. And it forces us to think about bacteria and yeast and mold as agents in and of themselves. And it forces us to think about public health as something that isn't just about human beings, but is actually about these other communities that you're talking about. But I also like to think when you were writing these essays that you were consuming lots of microbe led foods that you were co creating, co cooking, co writing with your microbes. Sarah, start with you. What was your favorite microbial food that you were consuming while writing?
- [35:42]
C
That is very tricky, I can tell you.
- [35:44]
A
I already said mine is champagne. So it's right above the desk here. Right.
- [35:49]
C
I mean, I love many, many, many foods. And so to ask me for a favorite, that would be like asking me for my favorite child. I'm joking, but I will share. I did have a wonderful opportunity. I read one of our submissions by Sevgi Mutlu Sirakova on Tarhana. I read this paper and then it turned out I happened to be going to the same city where Sevgi lives. And so I connected with her. I've never, I had never met her before. We only met through this, this editing collaboration. And she invited me over to her place to eat Tarhana, which is the ferment, the product of ferment, the soup that she wrote about. And so that really was a peak experience for me. And Sevgi writes about this food moving between Turkey and Germany. And so Sevgi even sent me home with like a water bottle, you know, plastic water bottle filled with Tarhana. So I actually got to participate in moving the food product from Germany to Canada. And I even got stopped at the, at the border by, by airport security with my bottle. And they had to inspect it to fight, figure out what on earth this was inside. And so I, I like, I lived the article and that was truly a wonderful opportunity. So that is my answer to your question.
- [37:25]
A
What about you, Maya?
- [37:27]
B
So as a fermentation scholar, of course I'm surrounded by what I call the UN affirmints, right? I have, I've got them all around me and it really wonderful and lovely. But I think what maybe I would like to suggest with my answer is that all foods are microbial. All foods have some presence of microbes and some more than others and some to my benefit and some not. And I don't know that when I buy lettuce from the store, who knows what is on there, right? And that is just as much a microbial food as is kimchi and the yogurts and the sauerkrauts, you know, there's.
- [38:10]
A
So go ahead, Sarah.
- [38:11]
C
Maya, can I ask you what your un ferments is? I just love to hear these details myself.
- [38:19]
B
I. So this is what my colleagues and I in the fermentation world, we're. We're trying to move away from the UN affirmants, right? Like because who once we have all the representation, then what, right? That's where the interesting questions for us lie. But we have the yogurt delegation, we have the cheese delegation, we have the wines, the beers, the pulques, we have the tepaches, we have the various lactoferments, we have the alkali ferments like the sharks and the natto, we have all of these. And I think it's really wonderful to celebrate that multiculti if you will. But I think it's also important to look past that and see what are the cross cutting themes, what are the points of differentiation? And this is really the exciting part, I think, for where fermentation research is
- [39:09]
A
heading and listeners are going to be able to get an insight into, into that incredible diversity that is in all of this. These articles. In the special section listeners can find the article, Sarah's article and Maya's article together. Making Microbes Explicit Introduction to Microbes Food and Food system in issue 26.1 of Gastronomica. And as well their co written follow up piece Finding the Microbes in Food studies in issue 26.2. And these articles are available online at online ucpress.edu gastronomica. We continue our deep dive into the microbial world of the food system next month in a conversation as we talk with the authors of of the Microbiopolitics of Novel Foods, the pro and Antibiotic Implications of Cultivated Meat and Aquaponic farming. Stay tuned to the gastronomica podcast on the New Books Network at the beginning of each month and subscribe to our podcast feed to learn more about our latest episodes. Thank you, Sarah. Thank you, Maya. Thanks for joining.
- [40:36]
C
Thank you.
- [40:37]
B
Thanks.