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Manuel Iris, "The Whole Earth Is a Garden of Monsters / Toda la Tierra Es Un Jardín de Monstruos" (U Arizona Press, 2026)
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- [00:00]
Manuel Iris
Ugh.
- [00:01]
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- [00:18]
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Manuel Iris
Welcome to the New Books Network.
- [02:05]
Caleb Zakrin
I'm Caleb Zakrin, CEO and publisher of the New Books Network. Today I'm speaking with award winning poet Manuel Iris about his latest book, the Whole Earth is a Garden of Monsters or Toda la tierra es unhardin de monstros. This bilingual work of poetry juxtaposes Hieronymus Bosch, the Dutch Renaissance painter most famous for the magnificent Garden of Earthly Delights, which hangs in the Museo del Prado in Madrid, and a fictional migrant worker named Juan Dominguez. I was initially drawn to Manuel's book because of his exploration of Bosch's masterpiece, which is possibly the most incredible work of art I've ever witnessed in person. For those unfamiliar with the Garden of Earthly Delights, I strongly recommend listeners search the painting online. Manuel's poetic explorations of Bosch and Juan come alive in dueling stanzas and lines. I'm pleased today to have Manuel on the New Books Network to discuss his creative work. Manuel, thanks for joining me.
- [03:00]
Manuel Iris
Thank you, Caleb. Thank you for having me.
- [03:02]
Caleb Zakrin
This is really just such a fantastically creative work, and I really just, first of all, as I said before, I just have been transfixed by Bosch's painting ever since I was a little kid and I first saw it. There's something about it where, when you learn the year that it was painted, it just seems like it seems like someone made it yesterday almost. I almost feel like a lot of AI work seems to be based in many ways on it. It's all kind of cribbing what Bosch did 500, 400 years ago. And before even jumping and talking about Bosch and the contemporary story that you use to, you know, explore some of the things that Bosch experienced in his life, I was wondering if you just tell us about yourself and your background and your career as a poet.
- [03:50]
Manuel Iris
Well, hello, Caleb. So first, I am very thankful for. For this interview and, well, to tell you about me. I am a poet, a bilingual poet. I was born in Mexico. I was born and raised in Mexico, where I started my poetic career. And then in 2006, I came to the United States as a graduate student to work on my master's and then on my PhD. And then after finishing the PhD in 2013, I didn't come back because a few years before I finished a PhD, I met the woman that became my wife. And that was the end of my plans of going back. After finishing my degrees. There was a moment in 2015, 2016, where I realized that I wanted to live a poetic life in the United States, too, and in English, too. And before that, everything I published was only in Spanish and only in Mexico or Latin America or Spain. But starting those years, I started translating myself. Then in 2018, I finally published my first book in the United States. It's called Translating Silence. And Translating Silence is really an anthology of everything that I published before in Mexico. It was bringing my work into this country and into this language. And then that same year, actually, this is a fun story to tell. The same day that I became a father, I was in the hospital. My daughter was born. And right after she was born, I received a call, and it was the office of the Cincinnati mayor to tell me that I was named the Poet Laureate of the city. So that day was a very significant day of my life. Everything changed from my door in and everything changed from my door out. So after having the role of Cincinnati Poet Laureate, I became writer in Residence of the Cincinnati Hamilton County Public Library, and then writer in Residence for Thomas More University. I also was inducted into the National Sister of Art Creators of Mexico. And I've been writing and publishing all of that time since. And I am very happy to now have this new book called the Whole Earth is a Garden of Monsters, which won the 2025Ambrochio Prize by the Academy of American Poets. And this is the reason that we're having this conversation now, Caleb, and I'm very thankful for that.
- [06:27]
Caleb Zakrin
Yeah, it's an extremely interesting book, in part because of the way that you juxtapose these two characters. And I'm wondering how you decided on Bosch and this character that you've sort of created, conjured up, who's clearly very much based in. In reality and real contemporary experience. How did you come up with these two sort of twin narratives that duel?
- [06:53]
Manuel Iris
Well, just like you said, that that happened to you. I have always been intrigued by Bosch's paintings, especially the Garden of Early Delights, but some others, too, just the style and imagery and, as you said, realizing, when was it? When was he painting? Because the Garden of Early Delights and the Mona Lisa are contemporaries, but Bosch seems to be centuries ahead in the future. Bosch is a contemporary of Dali. You know, Bosch is a surrealist, and it's even crazier than the surrealist. I don't think that we ever reached Bosch's again. So I've been always intrigued about the meaning of these paintings, about the process. It seems like an act of magic or. I don't know. It's just very, very at the same time, luminous and mysterious. So what I wanted to do first was to write a book about Hieronymus Bos and about the Guardian of Early Delights. And for several years, I was doing a lot of research and learning everything that you can learn, which is not much about the biography of Boss. And then when I started writing that book, I felt that I needed a way to bring all of those struggles, all of those Creative struggles and epiphanies to our reality, to our world. And I. I am a believer that every human being is a representation of all humanity. So I wanted to take the challenge of make Jeronimo's boss present in our life. My first idea was to talk about a man that was also gonna be called Juan Dominguez, but he was going to be a boring man that works in an office and likes Jeronimus Boss. And the idea was to talk about this guy, and then he's thinking about Hieronymus Boson and his paintings. But this, this. I never wrote a word of this idea. When I started writing the poems of Hermos mosque at some point, and I don't know exactly where this came from, the idea of this migrant came and then the desert came. And the idea of St. Anthony linking both deserts, that desert of St. Anthony and the desert in the north of Mexico, south of the United States, became apparent. I didn't know which was the structure of this book until I started writing. And the process of writing this book was very different from the process of writing others. It was a long time. It took a very long time. In chrysalis mode, I was researching and planning and thinking and listening to music. I did a lot of research on music that tells stories of immigrants, you know, corridos and such. I read a good deal of news and testimonies, but I didn't know what I was going to write until one day I felt that I had some sort of the melody. And I knew that when I started writing that was going to open like a fire hose. So I told my wife that I needed two or three days to write. And I took a plane and I went to Washington, where I don't know anybody, and I went there in January. It was very cold, and I put myself in a hotel for three days and wrote almost the entire book in three days. I was researching and training, preparing for this book for years. But the writing, the moment, and then it took me a long time to edit, but a lot of the bulk of the writing happened feverishly.
- [11:03]
Caleb Zakrin
The book begins with these two poems, and each, almost every single poem, there's a second poem with the same title. I think they're slightly different for some of them, if I recall correctly. But the first one is sunrise. And the first line is, you wake up, Hiranomishpach Hieronymus Bosch. And the other one is, you wake up, Juan Dominguez. What drew you to start the poem in second person?
- [11:32]
Manuel Iris
Yes, in this. There are a couple of instances in which the poems switch to the first person. In the case of Hieronymus Bosch, there is only one time. It's in the poem Fire, when he talks about the burning of his tongue. Everything else is about Bosch, you know, but it's not Bosch's talking, it is in fire. When he says, I was there. I saw the burning of the church, I saw the burning of the town. This is because. And I'm saying this for the people that is listening to this podcast. Geronimos Bos famously paints images of hell as cities on fire. It is also known that his own city, Dembos, was almost turned into ashes in a gigantic fire when he was a kid. And it has been speculated that because of this fire, he paints hell like this. So I started writing in the second person because I wanted to make clear that this is some sort of a portrait of the two characters. They are being portrayed by me. I also wanted to make very clear that this is an act of creation. I want it just like Hieronymus Bosch's paintings have sometimes people says that have sometimes self portraits. In this book, there can be or not be traces of me or things that I have experienced. However, the important thing is that I want the reader to be aware that this is a creation, this is some sort of a fiction. But in the other hand, Juan Dominguez has a lot of poems where he talks in the first person. Many of them are testimonies, especially when he's traveling, when he says, what I saw that they did to my little brother. This is how we died in the desert. Especially the last poems, where he's giving a lot of testimony. That is what it is. But Hieronymus Boz is not giving his testimony, is living. And I am giving the testimony of what I saw.
- [14:02]
Caleb Zakrin
Hieronymus boss, in the second set of poems, Burning, you look at St. Anthony's Fire.
- [14:09]
Manuel Iris
Yes.
- [14:09]
Caleb Zakrin
Which is something I had not known about ergotism, which is basically the compound, the compound of LSD is found in it. And obviously this intersects quite a bit and makes sense given some of the imagery, the very almost surreal, psychedelic imagery that you see in Bosch's work. Could you talk a little bit about St. Anthony's fire and how you imagined it in both this almost internal fire and then also, you know, fire, real life fire. Imagining it as this, as something physically instantiated as well.
- [14:45]
Manuel Iris
Yes. I think that it was very lucky for me to find out about this disease, and it was even luckier for me that this disease is called St. Anthony's Fire. So context for the future readers is that St. Anthony's Fire is this medieval disease that people contracted by eating, by ingesting bread that has this particular fungus. And part of the disease was hallucinations and the feeling of burning in your body. And people called it St. Anthony's Fire because of the feeling of burning, but also because a lot of these hallucinations have to do with the appearance of demons. And people will pray to St. Anthony because St. Anthony was this saint that went into the desert and physically fought, he fist fight with demons. He's one of the masters of the desert. And according to the tradition, he actually got in physical confrontations with demons. So because of this tradition, I also use not only the disease, but the imagery of fire and parts of the life of St. Anthony. It's himself as a character. The parallel of St. Anthony is the little brother of Juan Dominguez, which is called Antonio. Antonio also goes to the desert, also confronts demons. These demons are narco trafficantes de narcos. They are along the border and in the desert that are trying to recruit people. And this kid, because he's a kid, is a saint. He's seven years old, he has no sin. And he's also mute. He wasn't mute, but the day that they burned his town, because the town of Juan Dominguez is also burned down by the narcos and that's the reason he needs to go. That's another parallel, maybe the most important parallel between the two. They both have the towns burned, they both change their names after that burning, and they both end up with one goes to the desert in his paintings, the other one goes to the desert in his life. One has the image, the guiding image of the Saint, which is St. Anthony, and the other one has the guiding consciousness of his little brother, who is also sort of a saint, little Antonio. And I don't want to give much away, but all of this started happening as I was writing. When I started writing all of the poems about Juan Dominguez, I started thinking like this is the way that I could have a parallel. And one of the, one of the most important epiphanies of the book for me, because this was a character that I never thought was going to be. There was the appearance of little Antonio. I had no idea Antonio was going to be a thing until it was on the page.
- [18:04]
Caleb Zakrin
Yeah. And that's quite a bit
- [18:08]
Manuel Iris
of the
- [18:09]
Caleb Zakrin
book is this kind of extended look at Antonio and St. Anthony. And then you then move into an examination, sort of a meditation on the Garden of Earthly Delights. And before that, you have these two poems that are beside each other with different names, but similar Marginalia and Border. And you write that marginalia is, at least in medieval religious books, people would oftentimes draw or paint these little demon characters. And of course, those sorts of characters, I mean, many of them are quite surreal and inspired. Bosch, for his work, he took these things that are on the margins and made them the subject of his work. And of course, the Border also is very central in this idea of the migrant crossing the border. Being on the border, you know, literally being the border itself. How do. How did your exploration of borders inform the way that you then approach this actual. You know, this. This whole piece that itself is almost made up of marginalia?
- [19:23]
Manuel Iris
Yeah, this. One of the very few pairs of poems that don't have the same title are this Marginalia and Border. But even though they don't have the same title, they allude to the same. Because the migrant is the one in the borders, is the one in the outskirts, is the one. But it's not only out in the borders, but, as you said, is the border himself. He embodies what the border is. And for me, it was very important to realize that we have cold monsters, that everything that is beyond our understanding, everything that is trespassing into a realm of the unknown, you know, it is also the margin between what we know and what we don't know, what we can expect and the unexpected. And we are constantly, everybody, we're constantly migrating in between the known and the unknown, you know, the safe and where we don't feel it's safe. And it was important for me in these two poems to put into play what is outside of the text, but it is part of the text. The marginalia is part of the medieval books, and it's part of the meaning of the medieval books, even if it is in the margins. And maybe because it is in the margins, in the same way that in a society, these people that is in the outskirts of the societies, people that is out there in the borders, the people that do not fit completely the definition of what is a citizen, what is a person that is part of the society, they are also defining the text that they are around of. So it was very important for me, and it was very important for me to say in the last verses of this poem, in the voice of Juan Dominguez, that he who leaves it, no, like, I don't live in the border, I am the border. And who leaves this reality knows what I'm Talking about.
- [21:36]
Caleb Zakrin
You then move into looking at the painting and not only discussing and describing the painting, interpreting the painting, but then also juxtaposing it with this, you know, the sort of the other side of it, this idea that not just the paradise and the earth and the hell as envisioned by Bosch, but also your own version of that, your own interpretation of that transposed into more contemporary setting. What was your approach to analyzing the painting? How did you actually go about analyzing each panel? Like, I think for listeners who haven't seen it, the painting itself is essentially three paintings. It's three panels, two smaller ones on the side and then one large panel in the middle. How did you go about analyzing it?
- [22:34]
Manuel Iris
Well, for that, I read quite a bit of analysis of this painting. We know much more about the paintings of Hieronymus Bosch than about Hieronymus Bosch himself. There have been many, many art historians that have tried to interpret this painting. And I read many of them, and they are contradicting each other sometimes. So what I did was compiling the opinions that I agreed with and add my own interpretation to the poem. I also. To the painting. I also like to put this painting for. In the context of other paintings of Hieronymus Boz, because the work of Hieronymus Boz is very much centered in the idea of religion and God and what is rightful and sin and punishment and the final judgment and all of this. But it has symbols that repeat themselves in other paintings, like the owls, for example, or St. Anthony himself, you know, or demons that fly, things like that. Fire, Water. Water shows up in many places. So it was important for me to make informed analysis of the painting. Not only a personal analysis that have to do with my poems, but actually talk about Hieronymus Bosch and what we know about Hieronymus Bosch. But then I have to put that in dialogue with our current reality, represented by this fictional character, which is Juan Coyoco, Juan Dominguez.
- [24:24]
Caleb Zakrin
So obviously, currently, the world we're living in, it's chaotic and even more chaotic for poor immigrants, for migrants. And I'm wondering, you know, obviously there's so much news to read and so many experiences that we hear from individuals, you know, people's own experience that they're having right now. And you approached a very contemporary issue from. By looking at it almost sideways, by coming at it from a painter who died 500 years ago. And I'm wondering how this approach helps you understand our present moment, if it makes it easier, in a way, to look at the difficult experiences that many people are experiencing right now.
- [25:22]
Manuel Iris
I think that what this particular book is helping me do, and I hope help the readers do, is to. To put in a side or to start seeing the migrants as less of an other. Because the dignity of this Dutch painter that died 500 years ago and the dignity of this Latin American man that is maybe it is now alive because Juan Dominguez or Juan Coyoc is now taking the bestia, trying to come to the United States, that person still exists. There are many Juan Pollocks in every day coming from Central America to the United States. And the dignity of those anonymous people is the dignity of Hieronymus Bos. I don't want my readers to keep seeing the tragedies of the migrants as foreign. Tragedies are tragedies that happen to others. This is happening to humankind. This is happening to humanity. And for me, it is completely necessary to accentuate the humanization of the migrants, how human nature is in every person. And talking about this very important and canonical artist is talking about an everyday person that is almost invisible in everyday society. So I hope that this book helps our readers to understand any human tragedy as their own. Because if I can see the work of Jeronimus Boz as a Latin American man that lives in the United States, and I can see this Dutch painter's work and still be moved by it, I hope that the tragedy that happens to somebody in a far region, in a far away culture, it still touches me too. I do believe in celebrating our differences, but I believe even more in never losing sight of how alike we are from each other to each other.
- [27:43]
Caleb Zakrin
Yeah, those similarities come through so much. And as you pointed out, there are so many almost coincidences that you discovered in the course of writing it. Things that appear. The symbolism of the owl, the symbolism of St. Anthony's fire. It's a relatively short volume. It's something that a person could easily read in a sitting. Though I think that they would think about. Would find themselves thinking about it far longer after having read it and wanting to come back to it. And it's also, you know, it's nice to pair it with just looking at the painting. A painting itself that a person can look at for hours, honestly, and still not fully understand what Bosch has created. What I think is also special about this is the bilingual nature of the addition. And I was wondering if you could talk about that experience for you, translating between English and Spanish and your own writing process, how you think about your approach to language, being a native Spanish speaker who writes in English as well, what that's like for you, moving between these languages?
- [29:05]
Manuel Iris
Yes, for me, the process of writing a poem feels more like the process of composing a musical piece. I write based on sound. As I told you before, I did research and I knew more or less what I needed to do. But it was only until I got a tone and a melody that I was able to write. That, for me, is writing poetry. Writing poetry is finding the right cadence, tone, melody to say something. I usually don't know what I'm going to talk about. What I know is that I have TRA la la la la la la in my head. And I go after that. That becomes syllables, and those syllables become words, and then those words become a poem. And then I know that I said something, but I was chasing a melody. I was not chasing an idea. Now, all of this happens in Spanish. And after I write in Spanish, after the poems or the book are done, I start translating myself to English. But then in the process of writing, of rewriting of this translation, because when I translate my own work, I take a lot of liberties that I wouldn't take with somebody else's work. And all of the liberties are in order to keep the music as I imagine it. I am more faithful to the music than to the idea. I am more faithful to the music than to the words. So when I am translating myself, what I look for is the possibility of the poem to be read out loud and still be musical. If my poems didn't have the music that I wanted to have, I will consider them a poor translation of my own work. So when I'm translating myself, I chase that melody and I chase the feeling that I had when I wrote it in Spanish. So it is half translating, half rewriting the thing. It's like the poem being born again into a different language. I also had the help for this book and for other books of a dear friend called Kevin Hugh. I call him my co translator, even though when I gave him the poems, they were already translated into English. But he's a very fine, very musical poet in English, and that's what he does most of the time is help me refine the musicality of the poems.
- [31:50]
Caleb Zakrin
My Spanish isn't very good. I can read a little bit, and I did try and read in Spanish as well. And I think having the English obviously was useful to go back and forth for words that I didn't quite know the meaning of. But you know, it certainly, I think the musicality of it. You can almost read a poem in a language you don't understand and get this sort of a sense of it, even without fully capturing it. And I think that the musicality. What's amazing about it is that you have the musicality in both languages, which I think is very hard.
- [32:30]
Manuel Iris
It is to do. It is extremely hard. And I don't know if these were my own poems, if I will take those liberties with somebody else's poems.
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Caleb Zakrin
I'm wondering what advice you would give to people interested in writing poetry, but not just for people that are already poets and think of themselves as poets. But, you know, many of our listeners are scholars and academics who, you know, they might like. You have this idea where I'm going to go and write a history book or a biography of Hieronymus Bosch, and I'm going to go and spend time in the archives and do research and, you know, write this very. Write in the kind of very academic, analytical style of writing. And, you know, what would your case be to these sorts of scholars as to why they might consider, even if it doesn't actually result in a publication, why they might consider also trying their hand at creating a poetic formulation for ideas that they might want to explore in a different tenor.
- [33:35]
Manuel Iris
There is a beautiful poem of Wislava Szyborska, the Polish poet, where she says, I prefer the silliness of writing poems to the silliness of not writing poems. And I think that that is very wise. I also believe that it's important for anybody to realize that each human story, each human experience is important. For a long time when I was younger, I didn't think of my experiences as possible poems because every time I read the biographies of the poets that I admired, they lived in many countries, they traveled a lot. They were the children of diplomat or something. And that was not my reality. And I thought, who's. When I want to hear the. The stories of this super common neighborhood, of this super common person, there is nothing special about it. And I think that because of the super common neighborhood, because of the super common experience, is that those poems could have a value because these people that I admire so much, they wouldn't be able to write a poem that I can write because they didn't have these experiences. So what I would say is, do not underestimate the importance of what you have to say. And the best way to answer the question of why writing poems, it would be like, why not?
- [35:13]
Caleb Zakrin
Right? Yeah, I think that that's actually a great point. In many ways, poems or poetry is not. I mean, the poems or poetry is very popular in Many ways still. Everyone has probably had the experience of some level of reading or, you know, having heard a poem or maybe even trying their hand at writing a poem. But, you know, poetry has been a bit sidelined by other art forms, but it really is this. This form of art that has been around for so, so long. It's so.
- [35:44]
Manuel Iris
It's continued to be around.
- [35:45]
Caleb Zakrin
It's the most human form of art. You know, it's essentially. It's just. It's. It's the music without that. Without the. The music. It's the lyrics, E. And even then itself, it can be the music. It's the music too. And, you know, there's a reason why, you know, many of the first. First real written works we have are written in a poetic form. It's. I think there's something about it that it connects to memory and, you know, when you don't have, you know, the printing press, you need something to be memorable. And poetry really does stick with you more than a. More than other sentences might. So, yeah, Manuel, it was really wonderful to get the chance to speak with you about this book. And I think it really. It really does put, you know, Bosch's painting in a new light. And I was. I was happy to, you know, get the chance to kind of be prompted to take another look at it, because I really do remember, I think I was 14 years old when I was in Madrid and just being absolutely stunned by the painting and just, you know, obviously it is a very heralded painting, but I think it's much better than the Mona Lisa.
- [36:54]
Manuel Iris
Absolutely. Me too. Me too. It was much more interesting that they were self da Vinci in general.
- [36:59]
Caleb Zakrin
Yeah, it's an incredible work. It really is.
- [37:02]
Manuel Iris
It is incredible work. It's incredible. But it looks. Because it explores different things, they are doing different things. One is exploring science and anatomy, but this is a. Is an exploration of the human psyche and of the human soul that it will take us many centuries to achieve. We didn't arrive there until the avant garde. So this is completely way ahead of his time, like by centuries.
- [37:31]
Caleb Zakrin
Yeah, it is remarkable. And I mean, that's the thing about some of these artists at this point of time. I feel similarly about Don Quixote, for example. It's just you read this book and it feels like it was written yesterday. So, you know, I always. Yeah, time compresses sometimes when you encounter these great works of art and you see, like you said, just the, you know, the amazing similarities that you can draw between a Dutch painter from 500 years ago and you know, contemporary migrant. You know, there are remarkable similar similarities when you start to look for it. So yeah. Well, thank you so much for being a guest in the New Books Network. It was really so wonderful to get the chance to speak with you about the book.
- [38:18]
Manuel Iris
Thank you, Caleb. It was a great interview. I wish many people would make the kind of questions the so interesting questions that you made today.
- [38:29]
Caleb Zakrin
That's very nice. Thank you. Foreign.
- [38:44]
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