Many Cultures, One Hope: Cultural Competence in the Uniting Church with guest Reverend Seforosa Carroll

Summary

Podcast Summary

New Books Network: Many Cultures, One Hope — Cultural Competence in the Uniting Church

Host: Matthew Tyne
Guest: Rev. Dr. Seforosa Carroll
Release Date: June 1, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deeply into the evolution of cultural competence within the Uniting Church in Australia, as lived and advocated by Rev. Dr. Seforosa Carroll. With decades of ministry, academic, and cross-cultural experience, Dr. Carroll discusses the long journey toward genuine multiculturalism, the inclusion of intersectional identities, the persistent role of indigenous wisdom, and how theological activism intersects with issues of gender and climate justice—both in Australia and the Pacific. The conversation blends personal narrative, church history, and a vision for inclusive faith communities.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Defining Cultural Competence

• Dr. Carroll frames cultural competence as more than just cross-ethnic understanding; it encompasses empathy, self-awareness, humility, and hospitality toward all groups and subgroups (ethnic, gender, ability, etc.).
  • Quote:

    “Cultural competence to me means the ability and the agility to encounter and cross cultures and return in a sense of being aware of who you are in the encounter...”
    (Rev. Dr. Carroll, 01:47)

The Uniting Church’s Multicultural Journey

• Historical milestone: In 1985, the Uniting Church declared itself a multicultural church and established the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Congress—“two siblings walking a separate but yet interconnected path.” (03:28)
• Marking 40 years, the reality and necessity of cultural competence in ministerial training has increased as diversity grows.
• Early perceptions siloed multicultural ministry as “for others,” but now multicultural and intercultural engagement is increasingly seen as "everybody's business.”
  • Quote:

    “Cross intercultural ministry in the church is everybody's business in the church or it's everybody's ministry.”
    (Rev. Dr. Carroll, 07:05)

Shifting Attitudes & Necessity for Change

• Changing church demographics—often described as the “browning” of the Uniting Church—have made inclusion unavoidable.
• The traditional Western structures of the church must adjust to reflect the growing diversity, not only for justice but for survival.
  • Quote:

    “Our future depends on a change. It depends on the shift. And that means that our leadership, our structure, also needs a change.”
    (Rev. Dr. Carroll, 07:05)

Intersectionality and Expanding Definitions of Culture

• Successive church statements (1985, 2006, 2012) have attempted to broaden the idea of multiculturalism, but younger generations push for deeper intersectionality—seeing culture not just as race/ethnicity but involving ability, sexuality, gender, and more.
• Holding unity and diversity in “productive tension” is an ongoing challenge with the risk of defaulting to assimilation.
  • Quote:

    “One of the ways that we can help work through the diversity is to be aware of how intersectionality works, that we are all part of the whole and yet at the same time uniquely us or individual...”
    (Rev. Dr. Carroll, 11:55)

Personal Narrative: Gender, Theology, and Activism

• Dr. Carroll shares her upbringing in Rotuma (Fiji) and the influence of her parents—her mother’s traditional views and her father’s progressive support for her education.
• A turning point: The premature birth of her daughter inspired her to question restrictive theology and pursue feminist and post-colonial theological studies.
  • Quote:

    “Do I dare think about God differently? And that was the turning point for me, because it was at that point I said, right, I'm going to actually dare to believe that God is greater than what I have thought God to be.”
    (Rev. Dr. Carroll, 17:16)

• Her gender justice work linked naturally to climate activism, especially as women in the Pacific are often most affected yet least heard.
  • Quote:

    “...therein lies the power and the potency for navigating climate change in the Pacific. Unfortunately, Indigenous knowledge ...was thrown out ...with the bathwater in terms of Christian missions.”
    (Rev. Dr. Carroll, 22:52)

Reclaiming Indigenous Wisdom in Theology

• Colonial Christian missions often required severing indigenous knowledge from Christian practice, leading to mistrust and marginalization of ancestral wisdom.
• Today, a revitalization is underway as Pacific theologians ask: What does it mean to know God through both land and tradition alongside scripture?
  • Quote:

    “For me, in the theological space, it's to say that Indigenous wisdom is a valid source of theology, that, you know, we turn to Indigenous wisdom to inform how we think about God.”
    (Rev. Dr. Carroll, 27:55)

• Example: The Oceania Theology and Ministry Collective partners with scholars to bring indigenous frameworks to theological questions such as revelation.
  • Quote:

    “The indigenous reading would be to say that we read through the land. The land is the text … There are two contrasting, distinctive ways of answering the question, how do we know God?... There is no right way ...just different.”
    (Rev. Dr. Carroll, 29:30)

Hospitality & Inclusion: Sexuality, Gender, and Church Community

• At United Theological College (UTC), the policy is full inclusion:
  • Quote:

    “At UTC, we don’t discriminate. … We have an inclusive theology which says that all are created in God’s image and therefore all are welcome and all deserve a space to belong.”
    (Rev. Dr. Carroll, 34:09)

• In the Pacific, LGBTIQ inclusion is a harder road. Some see gender equality as a “slippery slope” towards broader acceptance, revealing deep hesitations.
• Colonial (particularly missionary) narratives erased indigenous gender complexity (e.g., Samoa’s “fa’afafine” identities). Recovery of this history is essential for true inclusion.

Sustaining Activism in the Face of Resistance

• Dr. Carroll reflects on feeling more rejection than welcome, yet her drive is sustained by personal faith and encounters with people changed in the process.
  • Quote:

    “I feel that everyone deserves to be free and deserves to be who they are ...simply because they are created in God’s image. ...Although I must say, I am thinking of semi-retirement at the moment.”
    (Rev. Dr. Carroll, 38:36)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• “Cultural competence to me means ...a strong sense of empathy and self awareness. ...if you don’t have these two things, it’ll make it harder for you to actually encounter cultures and meet them where they’re at.”
  (Rev. Dr. Carroll, 01:47)

• “The Uniting Church is becoming ...well, is browning. And I think that’s what’s creating the shift. ...We can no longer ignore that the church is just predominantly white because it is no longer that.”
  (Rev. Dr. Carroll, 07:05)

• “It is holding our diversity and our unity always in tension ...so the challenge is holding that diversity together in a unity that appreciates and affirms diversity without wanting to move into making us all the same or into assimilation.”
  (Rev. Dr. Carroll, 12:56)

• “Do I dare think about God differently? ...that was the turning point for me...”
  (Rev. Dr. Carroll, 17:16)

• “In reclaiming our Indigenous knowledge, therein lies the power and the potency for navigating climate change in the Pacific.”
  (Rev. Dr. Carroll, 22:52)

• “For me, in the theological space, it’s to say that Indigenous wisdom is a valid source of theology...”
  (Rev. Dr. Carroll, 27:55)

• “At UTC, we don’t discriminate... We have an inclusive theology which says that all are created in God’s image and therefore all are welcome and all deserve a space to belong.”
  (Rev. Dr. Carroll, 34:09)

• “It’s the people I’ve encountered on the way... the women in the Pacific... the men who've actually had lights go off in their heads... that kind of adds fuel to the fire.”
  (Rev. Dr. Carroll, 39:02)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:05 — Indigenous land acknowledgment (Gadigal land) and initial statement on indigenous theology
• 01:22–03:07 — Introduction: Dr. Carroll’s definition of cultural competence
• 03:28–08:57 — The Uniting Church’s multicultural declaration, history, and institutional shifts
• 09:43–13:32 — Expanding multiculturalism to intersectionality and practical church tensions
• 15:16–24:53 — Dr. Carroll’s personal narrative: gender justice, theology, and climate activism
• 26:20–28:47 — Reconciling indigenous and Christian knowledge in the Pacific
• 29:06–31:52 — The Oceania Theology and Ministry Collective: bringing indigenous wisdom to theology
• 34:09–37:59 — Hospitality, sexuality/gender inclusion: progress and setbacks in Australia and Pacific islands
• 38:36–40:10 — Coping with burnout as an activist theologian; finding motivation in small victories

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Conclusion

This episode offers an in-depth look at the theological, institutional, and personal dynamics of cultivating cultural competence in a contemporary, diversifying faith setting. Dr. Seforosa Carroll’s insights—rooted in lived experience, scholarship, and advocacy—paint a picture of a church wrestling with issues of inclusion, identity, and legacy. Through honoring both indigenous wisdom and the imperative of radical hospitality, Carroll and her colleagues chart a hope-filled, if often difficult, path toward a more just and united spiritual community.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to the New Books Network.

[B]

The Cultural Competence Collective podcast is recorded on the lands of the Gadigal. I'd like to acknowledge and pay my respects to Gadigal elders past and present. This always was and always will be

[A]

Gadigal country for me in the theological space, it's to say that indigenous wisdom is a valid source of theology that, you know, we, we turn to indigenous wisdom to inform how we think about God.

[B]

Welcome to another episode of the Cultural Competence Collective. My name is Matthew Tyne from the National Centre for Cultural Competence here at the University of Sydney and we're again coming to you from unceded Gadigal land. Today we are joined by Reverend Dr. Seferosa Carroll, an Aud ordained church minister in the Uniting Church of Australia, who is the academic dean and lecturer in cross cultural ministry and theology at the United Theological College, which is part of the School of Theology at Charles Sturt University. So welcome, Seph.

[A]

Thank you, Matt, for the invitation to be here.

[B]

Oh, it's good to see you. And just as a little disclaimer, many years ago I used to work with Seph at Uniting World, which is the development arm of the Uniting Chur in Australia. So, Seph, what we ask all of our guests here at the Cultural Competence Collective is to tell us a little bit about their understanding of cultural competence. What does cultural competence mean to you?

[A]

Cultural competence to me means the ability and the agility to encounter and cross cultures and return in a sense of being aware of who you are in the encounter or the relationship. It's also about having a sense of, well, a strong sense of empathy and self awareness. Because I think if you don't have these two things, it'll make it harder for you to actually encounter cultures and meet them where they're at. For me, cultural competency is also having humility, you know, to say to yourself, I don't know everything. And there's always something to learn when I'm engaging with people of other cultures and also the hospitality to be open and inclusive, to meet people where they're at. You know, when I talk about cultures, I'm not just meaning ethnicity, I'm using the broader understanding of culture to mean groups or subgroups of people. So it's not just about the cultural competence, it's also the ability and the skills to actually understand subgroups of people.

[B]

So you've worked as a Uniting Church minister for, I understand, about 20 years?

[A]

Yeah, just a little bit over that, but yeah, about then.

[B]

And so during that time you would have encountered many, many different Cultures or people from different subgroups, as you say, what does that look like in your work as a minister?

[A]

Yes. So in 1985, the Uniting Church in Australia declared itself a multicultural church. And that was in response to the increasing migration into Australia. This year, 2025, marks its 40th anniversary. In addition to being a multicultural church or that declaration, in that same year and from the same parent, the Commission for World Mission, the Uniting Church also established uac, which is the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Congress. So in 1985, two momentous things happened. It's the declaration of a multicultural church and also the establishment of Congress. It was seen at the time as two siblings walking a separate but yet interconnected path. And now, 40 years later, we are also looking at ways of how we reconnect with our covenanting with, with our indigenous brothers and sisters in the Uniting Church. So how does that impact my work? Well, I'm at the United Theological College and an important aspect of my role is the formation of our candidates for training in the Uniting Church, that they will be the future leaders and ministers of the Uniting Church in Australia. We have seen over the last, well, 40 years an increasing number of people from other cultures presenting for ministry. So cultural competence becomes a key and critical aspect in training ministers because it's about enabling ministers and developing their skills to work across cultures. Initially, when this first started, it was kind of like a thinking that cross cultural competence was a thing for those people of other cultures. I remember the early classes where when we were teaching cross cultural ministry, it was mainly those students from other cultures who signed up for it. We didn't see very many, if I may use it, you know, sort of Australian white students in the class because the understanding was that that was their ministry and therefore it's their job and their responsibility to do multicultural cross cultural ministry. But that is changing. There's been a shift in thinking that says that cross cultural intercultural ministry in the church is everybody's business.

[B]

So what do you think has brought about that shift? I mean, I'm sure there are various reasons, multiple reasons. What do you think are some of the motivators or enablers for that shift so that people see it as their responsibility and not the responsibility of those who we, as the white majority in this country see as those who have culture or those who are diverse from us? What has made, let's say the Anglo Celtic members of the church or the leaders of the church take that on to bring about that change within the church?

[A]

It's been a journey and as I said, We're 40 years on and it's only until now that we're beginning to, you know, say that cross intercultural ministry is everybody's business in the church or it's everybody's ministry. I think part of it is journey and time, like it takes time for. For things to change. It's also the experiences that people have along the way in congregations. I think a lot of it has to do with the sheer increasing numbers. You know, you can't avoid them anymore. So, you know, we're increasingly brown. I like to say that the Uniting Church is becoming increasing. Well, is browning. And I think that's what's creating the shift. Because in the church we're beginning to say that our future depends on a change. It depends on the shift. And that means that our leadership, our structure, also needs a change. Because the structure is still modelled on a Western church paradigm. The Uniting Church is at a time in its life where it is asking questions about its future. And when you begin to do that kind of questioning and internal gazing, you kind of begin to realize that for your future and for your survival, there needs to be a change. So we can no longer ignore that the church is just predominantly white because it is no longer that.

[B]

You said then about the browning of the Uniting Church and then a little bit before that you talked about how around cultural competence and that it is about ethnicity and national affiliation, but it's also broader than that. It's about other aspects of our identities or particular kinds of cultural expressions and ways of being. How do some of those other aspects work within this new or browning church? Are there particular tensions? And then how are those tensions not necessarily resolved but discussed? And how does the church then keep uniting as a work in progress?

[A]

I go back to the statement 1985, 40 years on, there were two other statements since then in 2006 and in 2012. Each of those statements was about encouraging and moving the church to. To embrace its diversity. The statements, as great as they are, are limited in the sense that they are very racially weighted. So when we talk about what it means to be a multicultural church, we are specifically thinking what it means to be a diverse culture of people. Our younger generation are actually challenging us in saying, you know, there's more to culture in terms of the word. If anything, intersectionality comes into play. So this is a critical piece of the puzzle. One of the things that we've come to realise is that within cultures there's also subcultures. So things like diversity in terms of those with disability LGBTIQ is a big aspect of that too, in terms of our younger generation. And so there are different cultures within cultures that are not specifically racial or ethnic. So that does present a challenge. Don't think we're at conflict stage, but it, it has meant for the congregations who have been so used to understanding culture as race or ethnicity, to actually open up our circle and to include other voices and perspectives is a challenge because then you also need competency is how do you relate across the different groups in valuing their uniqueness, valuing our community diversity, and at the same time enabling us to be unified in the sense that we don't tend to homogenizing again, because that seems to be the kind of challenge that we all face. We all want to be the same, really, I think in the end. So it's holding our diversity and our unity always in tension that doesn't just come with that kind of diversity. It's also doctrinal. And as you would know, the Uniting Church is diverse on several fronts. It is a complex space. But I think that one of the ways that we can help work through the diversity is to be aware of how intersectionality works, that we are all part of the whole and yet at the same time uniquely us or individual, and everything impacts our identity in some way. So it's not just about culture or race, it's about your gender, it's about your sexuality, it's about your theological leanings or preference, even your political preference. So the challenge is holding that diversity together in a unity that appreciates an affirm's diversity without wanting to move into making us all the same or into assimilation. We haven't got there yet, though. I think we're on this journey.

[B]

Yes, well, in cultural competence we often use that metaphor of the journey or that idea of I go and do a workshop or I read a few books and I've got some Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander friends, so I'm culturally competent now. But yes, it is that idea of the journey and that developing a kind of practice. I wanted to go a little further with that idea of holding things intentional within the church, but to focus a little more on your particular experience and your. I'm going to use the term work history. So you were born in Rotuma, which is now part of Fiji, and then migrated to Australia. And so you carry with you deep understanding of Pacific cultures. And I'm very much aware of your particular work around looking at gender equality theology within the church with a focus on Pacific countries and territories. I'd like to talk about that, but then also your, I'll use the word theological activism around climate change as well. How have those two issues, I mean, they're not mutually exclusive, obviously, but how have you managed those tensions, managed that work within your practice as a minister and also then as a woman and as a pasifika person? What has that been like in terms of that journey for yourself, but also then for your colleagues, for your communities that you work with? That's a very huge question.

[A]

That's a big question. Yeah. So pick it apart. Right, okay.

[B]

Or answer a completely different question.

[A]

All this goes back to growing up. I think that's where. That's where it all begins, doesn't it? Like, I grew up in a middle class retirement household. I was very fortunate in that sense because I had access to education and also a father who I believe was well ahead of his time because he did not discriminate between male and female. I'm the only daughter girl in my family of four siblings, and I'm the youngest. So I think looking at that, you know, one would have thought that I would have ended up somewhere completely different to where I am now. My mother was a traditional rutumen mom. And so her understanding of the woman's place is that you be a good wife, a perfect wife, actually. So if she had her way, she would have had me married off to a lawyer, a minister, or a doctor, because in her understanding, that's how women get status. You've made it if, you know, that's your lot in life. And so if she had her way, she would have had me married off. Thank goodness that that didn't happen and that my father had very open ideas about education. He was very passionate about education. He saw the value of education for people. And so therefore he afforded me the same dignity and right as he did my brothers to actually pursue education. So I guess that's where the seeds were grown. And also this sense for me, even though I didn't know it back then, that there was a gap between male and female in my culture and that there were specific roles expected of whether you were male or female. So I think that's what spurred me on to actually say, well, there's something beyond the horizon and I want to know what that is. So that kind of spurred me on to leave home, actually. And it's in leaving home that I began to grow and to discover the world for myself rather than through my mother's traditional eyes. And so I guess that was the drive behind the gender work and then discovering that the Bible, as was interpreted for me or to me through Christian history, wasn't totally right because it had a specific understanding again of the place of women, or an interpretation of that that made its way into the Pacific and then made its way into understanding for my mother, but also how that was then related to me. So when I discovered that there was more to the Bible than what was given to me, that actually spurred me on to say, well, God's got to be bigger than what I've been led to believe. And I want to find what this mystery is all about. And I've never looked back. But I think a huge driving force behind this really is the premature birth of my daughter at 12 weeks. And I remember sitting on the hospital bed saying to myself, what happens if she dies? Cause I've had all this bad theology that says that if she dies it's my fault because there's some hidden sin in my life. And you know, if she lived, well, that's great, but that was the question that I was holding. If my daughter died, then I seriously have to rethink this theology. Do I dare think about God differently? And that was the turning point for me, because it was at that point I said, right, I'm going to actually dare to believe that God is greater than what I have thought God to be. And that's regardless of whether my daughter lives or dies. This is what I'm going to pursue. And that's what happened. So I went on from that hospital bed to pursue further theological studies and then discovered, you know, all this wonderful thinking around feminism, post colonial diasporic studies. And within that was a liberation that I felt within myself, but also a liberation that I felt that all women, and if we're talking the Pacifica culture should have access to, every woman should know that they are created in God's image, they have agency and they should be able to do whatever they want and culture should not hinder them. So that was the drive behind all that work with Uniting World. And then it segued into climate change. And again, part of that was around the agency of women, recognizing that women and children were at the forefront of climate change, but whose voices weren't always taken seriously or heard at the decision making levels, both at the global and the very local levels. And yet they were, the women were the ones who held communities together and they weren't given the resources to help their communities negotiate or navigate climate change. So that kind of was the segue into that work. But the other aspect of this was around theology. I'm a theologian. So it always comes back to that. Right. And it's the, the unhelpful theology in both the climate and the gender space that I believed was actually hindering transformation and standing in the way of progress for both women and communities in navigating gender equality, but also climate change. Because the climate change space in the Pacific has been around a theology that says God is responsible for the weather, God is responsible for climate change. Therefore humans have no agency in this, whether they have been part and they have been in creating the crisis in the first place or in actually, you know, just being human beings. So, yeah, so that's, that's kind of what led me into saying, well, one of the things that we need to do is to rethink our theologies is to actually rethink what we have inherited as legacy and unpack that. And one of the things then that I discovered was the importance of Indigenous knowledge. And for me, my kind of thesis argument is that in reclaiming our Indigenous knowledge, therein lies the power and the potency for navigating climate change in the Pacific. Unfortunately, Indigenous knowledge, or knowledges has been one of the things that was thrown out in, you know, with the bathwater, baby, with the bathwater. In terms of Christian missions and the, the legacy of theologies in the Pacific, you know, we were told that when you become a Christian, you gotta put aside all your indigenous connections. And for communities in the Pacific, as in elsewhere in the world, those indigenous knowledges are critical because in those knowledges we hold wisdom for navigating the current crisis. But it's going to take a while to actually unlearn the bad theology and reclaim the Indigenous knowledge or integrate them. And unfortunately, in terms of climate change, we're running out of time and there's just been years and years of locked up history that needs to be unpacked. So I think that that's the ongoing challenge for faith and theology in the Pacific in terms of climate change, but also in terms of gender. And again, they both are related. Yeah. They're not separate issues. They're actually interconnected and interrelated.

[B]

Okay, wow, thank you.

[A]

No worries. That was probably a long winded answer.

[B]

Oh, no, that's great. And it's made me think then of course, then a number of follow up questions. One is you talked about that moment of your daughter's premature birth and that idea that she might die, your daughter now.

[A]

Oh, she is 29. She turned 29 this year. Yeah, I know. Time flies, right?

[B]

Okay, so she's 29 now. Okay.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Fantastic. Another question then was about that idea of when Christianity came to the Pacific. I mean, of course, each location would have had a very, well, a different experience. So I am generalizing here the idea that now the light has come through the figure of Christ and the old ways are. Are out the indigenous ways. How have those two then been. Not necessarily reconciled, but how do they coexist now from your experience? I mean, of course, you can't answer for the entire Pacific, but through your particular experience, either in your work or in your personal life, how do you see those coming together, complementing each other, or what does it look like now?

[A]

Yeah, it's still an ongoing discovery or rediscovery that is holding the Christian legacy or Christian faith. And Indigenous knowledge. Indigenous knowledges are still treated with suspicion, unfortunately, because, you know, I think there was a hard sell on Indigenous Knowledges in becoming Christian. At worst, it's seen as all of that is. Is of the devil. It's evil. So that sticks and it's embedded over centuries. But, you know, there is hope because increasingly there are more and more Pacific scholars reopening and reclaiming Indigenous Knowledges into their work, into their methodologies of how you read the Bible or interpret the Bible, and also how you think, think and do theology. So this is an exciting opening at the moment, and there's increasingly more research in the area. The challenge for us, always in the Pacific, but I don't think it's just in the Pacific. It's also how you bring that wisdom and wonderful knowledge to the local level where you can then begin to transform and change the way people think. And the hope is that, you know, that would also change the way they behave. So there is hope in the sense that this is opening up and that there is a sense of permission giving for Pacifika researchers to actually claim Indigenous knowledge or wisdom as a valid part of their research and their work. For me, in the theological space, it's to say that Indigenous wisdom is a valid source of theology, that, you know, we turn to Indigenous wisdom to inform how we think about God. And I guess on a larger global scale, how does our Indigenous wisdom also help to transform theology, Western theology? There is room at the current time to explore and do exciting things.

[B]

Could you point or give an example to one of those exciting things, like a particular initiative that you're involved in or that. That you're aware of around the influence of Indigenous Knowledges, Indigenous theologies influencing, let's say, a mainstream or Western theology?

[A]

Right. Yes. Well, this weekend, one of the Initiatives at the United Theological College, we have a collective called the Oceania Theology and Ministry Collective, of which we partner with scholars and colleges, theological colleges in the Pacific and the Diaspora, to further Pacifica research and theology. So this particular weekend we are gathering together about 20 Pacifica scholars and also including, because Oceania does include, depending on how you do, the geography does include Asia or parts of Asia. So we have scholars from Asia as well. And the. The project is around looking at Oceania resources for world Christianity. So what we're doing is we're thinking through traditional concepts of the systematic theological agenda through indigenous framework. So for example, I'm working on looking at Western Christian understanding of revelation, how do we know God? And reading that alongside the indigenous understanding of revelation around the question, well, how do we know God? So, so you know, for example, indigenous theologians would argue generally that the Western tradition of revelation, how do we know God? Is usually through text, the Bible, of course, it's European, so that's the tradition. The indigenous reading would be to say that we read through the land. The land is the. The text and with the land is the multiple and complex relationships between people and the non human creation. So there are two contrasting, distinctive ways of answering the question, how do we know God? How does God reveal God self to us? And the argument is to say, well, there is no right way. Like there's no right or wrong, just different. Because after all, God is mystery and we'll never understand or know fully who this God is. And I think that that's just the fun of it.

[B]

So there is that element of fun because of that. Yeah, the sense of mystery. I think too often in our work at the national center for Cultural Competence, many of the participants in our workshops often seeking solutions or particular answers to having difficult conversations with people who might think differently or act differently in the world. And often we say at the very beginning that you've come seeking these particular answers and we hope that you'll leave with a lot more questions and particular sorts of questions, both of others, but more importantly of oneself and particular worldviews that we have. I wanted to pick up on this idea of hospitality, that idea of opening up. I think that was a term that you used or words to that effect earlier. And to think about that in the context of sexuality and gender expression. Many years ago when I worked in the HIV field, I did quite a lot of work with a group called the Pacific Sexual Diversity Network, psdn that comprised representatives from a number of Pacific countries. And one of the things that was so important was their belonging to church, the significance of their religious or spiritual practice. And often in sessions with people from different countries, particularly those from, say, Australia or Western Europe, there'd be the idea of, the church hates us, so why are you still part of it? This idea of abandoning the church that has abandoned you as a queer person? And yet it was fundamental. I mean, I can't speak for all of those members from. From the Pacific network, but they often would speak about its importance at a religious or spiritual level, but also at a social level. So just thinking then about your understanding of hospitality and then looking at some of those tensions as well, what has your experience been at UTC or within the church broadly?

[A]

At utc, we don't discriminate. I mean, it is an open community and all are welcome and we don't. Yeah, we. We have an inclusive theology which says that all are created in God's image and therefore all are welcome and all deserve a space to belong. In the Pacific, it's a different story. I mean, I remember at a church leaders meeting in PNG and, you know, we were putting forward the proposal for a gender equality theology. And it was one thing to argue for and advocate for gender equality, which was causing quite a stir. It was another thing to actually say, ah, well, you know, it's not just gender, it's a whole host of other things. It's also about gender expression and lgbtiq, to which there was a sense of shock, horror. And one of the reasons why there was a resistance and a hesitancy to accept gender equality was because some leaders saw it as a slippery slope to accepting lgbtiq, that it was opening up the circle to more trouble than what they wanted to be open to, to be hospitable to. It is what it is in the Pacific. I'm not saying or advocating that it is right. It's just that that journey is a hard and will be a long one. It's because of the way that the Christian understanding of the Bible has come to us. And I go back to that, not fully blaming all of it on that, because we also, as a community, need to take some responsibility. So, yes, that is a challenge. And for me, it grieves me greatly because. Because these people, the LGBTIQ community, want to be part of church. Because, as you know, in the Pacific, faith is so important, and yet it's the church, not God, who says to them, you can't belong because you're in sin. This is going to be a very hard and long journey. In the Pacific, it is opening up, but only a little bit. But I guess it's looking for courageous advocates and voices in that space, in the church space, to argue and say that all of us have dignity and all of us simply because we are created in God's image. The irony of it all is. And there was a master's thesis written on their some years back, back looking at the Samoan community and arguing that there was more than one gender. It was not just male and female. There was the whini as well. Right. Pre Christian, the erasure of that third kind of gender expression or gender came through the missionaries and came through their writing of the community to their supporters and families back home. And they slowly erased that third gender, so they didn't exist. And all of a sudden, male and female became the norm. So these are the kind of histories that I advocate, that as specific communities, we need to go back because they're there, but they need to be recovered because that is, in part, part of our history that's been lost.

[B]

You talked about it being an ongoing challenge. I think you used the word hard. As somebody who has been a. If it's okay if I call you an activist within the church, within various communities for many, many years, how do you keep going? How do you stay in the game? How do you keep motivated? Because it must take a toll. Because as you said, these, you come up against all sorts of entrenched particular attitudes, behaviors, theologies. What gives you the strength or what recharges you?

[A]

Yeah, because you're right. It's not an easy pathway. And if anything, you feel. You feel more of the rejection than you feel the love. It's like, I don't know whether it's to do with my own personal faith and a dogged stubbornness that comes from that. And what I mean is the sense that I feel that everyone deserves to be free and deserves to be who they are. And if I were to have a theological basis, it's to say simply because they created in God's image. I think it's that, that kind of belief that fuels the passion and that fuels the dogged stubbornness that says, I don't want to give up. Although I must say, I am thinking of semi retirement at the moment. I think also it's the people I've encountered on the way who are part also of the struggle. For example, the women in the Pacific. And it's not just the women. It's the men who've actually had lights go off in their heads and who've actually at that point said, right, I need to make a commitment to change. I think that kind of like adds fuel to the fire. Okay, so it's making a difference. It's working. Maybe a small difference, but it's making a difference.

[B]

Thank you very much, Seph. I think that's a nice spot to end on that idea of. Yeah, that I tried that. I had a go. I hope you don't retire. Not just yet. It sounds like you're doing some extraordinary things and there's a lot more to do. But thank you very much for joining us and we wish you every success and yeah, thanks for being with us.

[A]

This podcast was produced by project officer Adobe Plange, academic facilitator Amy McHugh and senior external producer Sarah Mashman. Thank you to designer Zayn Arif, who created our podcast artwork. If the topic in today's episode felt heavy or distressful, we have included links to mental and emotional support services in our show. Notes.