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Marcia Bonato Warren, "Movement and IdentityMulticulturalism, Somatic Awareness and Embodied Code-Switching" (Singing Dragon, 2025)
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- [00:01]
A
Welcome to the New Books Network.
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B
Hello. This is Helena Bissing, your host on the New Books Network. Today I am talking with Marcia Bonato Warren about her new book, Movement and Identity, Multiculturalism, Somatic Awareness and Embodied Code Switching, published by Singing Dragon. Welcome to the show, Maria.
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A
Thank you so much. It is such a pleasure to be here and I'm so excited for our conversation.
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B
I've been very excited to talk with you, talk with you again. We've connected before and you know this. I want you to tell us about the book and how it came into being and how that relates to your work. Because it's quite a journey for this book to come into the world.
- [00:57]
A
Yeah. Thank you. Gosh, where do I start? I think for me, story is so important, especially when we talk about culture and identity. And it's not just stories that we hold within ourselves, but the stories that can come through us. Right. And this book is really a manifestation of that. It's really. I think for me, it came into my life at a time of transition. I was going through some big personal changes. And when that happens, liminal space opens up. And I love that term, so I'm sure folks know it, but it's really the space in between which I really feel is reflective of multicultural identity. But you know, those moments in our lives where everything seems to be falling apart, but that's also where creativity can enter. And that's where the book came. It's the story of, in some ways, my life and my attempt to trying to make sense of being a multicultural person. My mother is Brazilian and she came to the States to teach Portuguese and Spanish when she was in her late 20s, did not intend to stay. And she met my father who was also teaching. And he. It's going to be hard for me. I. He is, in my mind still is. He passed away last August. So I'm just going to still say is because he still feels with me, but he's indigenous, from Santa Clara Pueblo in northern New Mexico. I'm also a member of my tribe. And so my parents met. They married. My mother ended up staying in the States even though she didn't intend to. And my brother and I were born, you know, a couple years after they got married. And that became a journey of moving in between cultures, literally, psychologically, you know, in every sense possible. And in an interesting way, they did not teach their languages to my brother and I for different reasons. So my experience with culture from a very young age was always non verbal. I think at some point, you know, I did speak Portuguese, but didn't have it consistently. And our tribal language is Tewa. And my father was not taught that language, you know, due to federal policies and things like that that have gone on with tribes over time. So this book was really a way for me to reach back into that experience and understand what I carried within my body as far as my own culture and identity, and to find a place of healing around a lot of fragmentation. So I think I'll pause there. There's such a big, like, journey to that. That. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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B
And I mean, I think when I heard about your, your background and your story, I mean, the, the loss of language is such a common thing. It's, it's so. I mean, this is a very big collective trauma, right, the loss of language. But the way that your whole framework and way of working and your, your kind of approach just offers such a kind of a. How do I say it? Like, yeah, an opportunity for healing because you don't let that loss of language stop you. Right? Like, it's like, yes, that's a loss, but that is not going to hinder the embodied work. And in a way, I actually, when I was reading it, I was almost like, wow, there's actually a particular kind of creativity to the fact that, no, you don't have the direct access to that language, heritage language, but there's the language of the body, which is incredibly powerful.
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A
Oh, so powerful. And we absorb that from the moment that we're born. You know, I think one of the things that when I was starting to do the work of understanding kind of multicultural identity from an academic and kind of a somatic counseling lens is I put it into a timeframe of my life where I was an adult. You know, I think we do that sometimes when we're trying to figure these things out. We're like, okay, my experience as an adult with these cultures and going in between was this, this, this. And I was looking at sort of, you know, my experience of actually traveling, you know, to Brazil or going to the pueblo. And then there was this lightning bolt moment where I just realized, and I'll tell you what prompted that in a moment because it's deeply sensorial, but I realized that, like, wait a minute. My parents were my cross cultural experience every day of my growing up life. The way they moved, the way they communicated, the way that they hugged me, which was different, right? The way that my mom's accent changed over time, the way that, you know, all of that. So they were in real time, embodied representations of the two cultures that they came from. So a lot of my kind of struggle around, you know, was I truly immersed in my cultures as far as geographic areas, you know, how much can I call myself Brazilian? Or, you know, Santa Clara Pueblo Tewa? You know, kind of quieted down when I realized I'd always been immersed because I had my parents with their cultures in my life. And you.
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B
You open the book with a really beautiful sharing about your experience as a child and going to visit your mother's family in Brazil in this kind of. And you write with this, like, very. It's very sensory rich and like, from that perspective of the child, where the world is just so bubbly and overwhelmingly intense and exciting. And then you described, like, you see, like, you notice this thing in your mom where she's just. She made a switch because, I mean, obviously she was traveling to her home country to see her family and observing and sensing that. I mean, you write that that was the moment you discovered what you did now call, like, embodied code switching.
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A
Yeah, yeah. And I. You know, I'll be honest with you. When I started to write the book, and for folks who are writers out there, there's always a moment where you start and you have the blank page. You know, you're like, okay, not really sure what's coming through. And, you know, I've always written to some extent, so let me just say that out there, you know, I've journaled since I was very young, of course, written a lot of academic things over time for my degrees, had a different kind of style of writing that I discovered during COVID that was more observational and sort of poetic. So different styles. Right. Writing a book, this is the first time I ever wrote a book. So when I was faced with that page, I just got very quiet and just asked what wants to come through first. And what came through first were these stories of my grandparents and the homes that I grew up in with them. So that was the first thing that came through, and I trusted that. Right. And I think through that process and through the whole process of the book, I discovered many, many things about my experience that I hadn't really either taken the time to feel or had told the story so many times that it became a little separate from. For me. But with the book and the way that I write, I re experienced it. So that moment of my mom switching into her language, I think even in the airport, it wasn't even when we were in Brazil. So, like, you know, everyone waiting to get on the plane and, you know, all the Brazilians with all Their stuff and all the. I'm going to say the word bagunsa. The mess, the beautiful mess that, you know, that you see with all the energy. Seeing her transform like that was huge. And also, like, I loved it, but I mourned the loss of it whenever we came back to the States because I could see that part go away. So that's the switch. And, like, both the joy and the grief that can go along with embodied code switching. Yeah.
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B
There's this constant. Yeah. Process with back and forth with. Where there's both joy and grief. And I mean, I was very touched by these stories because I feel like those moments of that shifting, I think it captures so much about your work and about the book. And I want to bring in also when I first learned about your work. That was from a chapter in the book Oppression and the Body, which is edited by Christine Caldwell and Lucia Bennett Layton, an amazing book, by the way. And you have a chapter in that book about embodied code switching. And sort of like that chapter turned into this book.
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A
Yeah, that's.
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B
Yeah. And that chapter, I was very inspired by it. I use it in my classes, and I had read it many times and used it because it felt very powerful. And it's also very engaging for students, especially somatic students. Students of somatic psychology. And in that. In that book, you also have a similar sort of parallel shifting moment, which is going. Driving out to the pueblo. Yes. You're with your dad's connection. You're his family, and you talk about something happening on the exit on the freeway.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Where when you're on the freeway, you go. You. When you get on that exit, you've noticed that there's something happening in you. Like, that's where the shifting is happening. And like in the airport. Right. There's something. When we're just about to switch there.
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A
Yeah, Yeah.
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B
I just thought. I just think it's. It's a very real, concrete moment.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And it also sort of. You can say symbolize, but also kind of capture, reflect so much about all the work and life, in a way.
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A
Yeah. Yeah. It's. I'm glad you brought that up, because I think that's part of what I wanted to bring into the work is that there's. There's a moment of transition that oftentimes we don't notice in the switch, because the switch pulls us towards one state or another. And if you've grown up doing that, it's such a deeply unconscious adaptation that oftentimes we don't feel as if we have a Choice. And I think I really wanted to bring the choice and into the work. And through that, an awareness of the switch happens far before, you know, and, you know, we have the signals before it actually happens. And those are the moments of choice. And if we understand the rhythm of the switches, which are deeply somatic, you know, then we can engage with it in a way that feels, you know, that has more agency and more of. Of an ability to really tap into what. What parts of ourselves want to show up and for what reason and. And for how long. And all those questions. Right. So as a kid, of course, you just. You don't even think that way, you know, like, for me, it's like, you know, going to the pueblo, we're taking that exit. For me, it's sort of the. All of the. The. The deeply important, you know, parts of the land that are starting to. To call to me in some ways of, we are here now. This is where we are now. This is the, you know, our place. And then kind of driving off into, like, there's cattle guards and so kind of that rhythm of, you know, and now we're here, you know, so that it's hard to explain unless you've been there. So, like, there's sort of this coming together of that. And then how my body starts to shape around being in that place in space that would come on board without me really understanding, you know, as a kid. And I wouldn't feel myself. I didn't know who I was. Right. Same thing in Brazil. You know, once all those things started to happen, the airport, the language, the food, the smells, all those. It called to me to be another part of myself. But as a kid, I didn't know, you know, how to do that without feeling completely disconnected. So the work really is integrative. It's about learning what those rhythms are. It's learning what the signals are. It's learning how our spaces and places speak to us. It's not just all within us, you know, it's within our environments and the context that we live in. And then finding what our sense of self is, that's both part of, but separate from, the identities that we carry within us. It can feel complicated, but it's also quite simple. You know, it's like, how do I stay connected to the world, my identities, my stories, without losing myself? That's really, I think, what the heart of the work is.
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B
Yeah, and I love how you're clarifying here that it's. And you also say in the book, like, you're not proposing that there is one right way of being multicultural. You're not proposing that multicultural identity is one sort of destination or sort of state to arrive at or something like that. And you're not, you're not operating with these abstract categories of identity. This is the somatic experiential ethics of your book throughout that it's like your multicultural identity is a process and it's an experience and it's where the moments of transformation are really how you move through. Those moments are so crucial for that. I think that's so important, the way you really explain that. And I wanted also to share. I mean, we've talked about this, but I was very, you know, just to be very transparent. I was very, very touched by this, both in the chapter and also even more so in your. In your book. Because I'm also. I, you know, I could say multicultural. I have multicultural background. I've also. I like the term mixed. I don't know. I like that term. Let's say I have mixed background, whatever that means, like that. It's very vague and open. I have Danish and Palestinian background. I grew up in Denmark. And I mean, I also. Reading. Reading you, like, I just had these waves of memories of also that. That moment of transformation, going to those trips to visit family and just the sensory intensity. And I think it was so powerful because when I was reading your work, like, suddenly there was this sense of like making that experience that is very culturally salient, making it real in a way that this is the whole problem with, for a lot of us is that, you know, speaking of, for example, Palestine, of like when that's been the thing that's been constantly erased.
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A
Yes, yes. There's. There's a piece about identity, and I'm glad you're bringing up the terminology, because multicultural. And I touched on it in the book, but it is a much larger topic. It's not just a description of an identity. It's also a political and socioeconomic term. So what I've learned is that in the United States, we use the term with identity fairly easily, I think, in day to day, but also in the therapeutic world in Europe, not so much. That's more of a political kind of systemic category for folks. And so they may not necessarily identify themselves as multicultural. And in many senses, multicultural, by trying to encompass so many differences, can run the risk of actually erasing difference. So I want to be really clear when I use the word multiculturalism, it's a good enough term, but it's not a perfect term and it certainly isn't the only term. So I offered a few that I had found along the way. Polycultural, intercultural, there's some other terminologies in there. But in the end, and this is something that I hope folks, when they read the book will get most of all is that you are your own expert. You use what feels right for you. You know, like, and. And it's. It's not time bound. You know, how you define yourself now could shift and change and probably will shift and change over the course of your lifetime. And in the context that you're in, that is absolutely your. Your right. You know, there are some days that I will do the whole hyphenated identity of who I am, right, Where I know that that space can handle that. And other times where I'll. I'll say something else or, or nothing at all. You know, it really depends on what identities want to be forward in my consciousness and in this space and how to work with that. And the other piece of this is a sense of belonging, right? So, you know, when we have cultural ties that either through our own, you know, lived experience that we've lost connection with, or through, you know, larger political systems and marginalized communities, where there's been erasure, where there's been marginalization, where there's been discrimination, whereas there's been real effects in terms of, you know, how to identify, when to identify, and when to choose your life and your safety. Right? Then it is absolutely necessary to talk about how do we maintain sense of self, sense of safety and fluidity, and how we identify and what does it mean to belong. That's big. And for me, the somatic piece is what is so important about the sense of belonging? Because I do feel it is a sense we can run circles in our heads about all the shoulds, you know, I should speak this language. I should know all the rules. I should, you know, and that's not to say that that's not important. It is. But I know in my body that when I go to Brazil, there is a part of my body that recognizes that it belongs. That when I go to the pueblo, there's a part of my body that recognizes that it belongs. My head can get in the way, you know, and my emotions can have their own experience as well. But my body knows, you know, my body knows.
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B
And then, and then you can work with that. I feel like that's the thing where this approach of working with it experientially, somatically, is like, you can work with that because that's also your foundation. For then dealing with how your head gets in the way or how things get complicated with other people and relationships and social conflicts as it's part of life. Right. So I feel like that it's like this very from the ground up that you can work with that to start from the place of knowing those experiences of belonging, even if it's. There's grief and it's complicated, it becomes like the foundation.
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A
Yeah, yeah. And it's, you know, again, tried to capture that process in sort of a two dimensional way with, you know, what I call the SIA loop, the sensation interpretation action loop. Right. And there's so many feedback loops that we have in somatic counseling and counseling in general. So apologizing for putting one more out there in the world. But it seemed to make sense to me at the time that, you know, the basis of it is that, you know, wherever you start off with, you know, in, in terms of where you prioritize the information that you glean from yourself and from the world, which is culturally bound, by the way. So in Western thought, it's going to be cognitive. So it's the thinking space. Right. The invitation is to move around a little bit more. So include the body, which is sensation. Right. Include interpretation, which is the thinking and the, the belief systems that might be coming along with what you're experiencing. And then invite the action piece, which is what do I do or don't do in terms of my behavior? So the invitation is to move around all three of those areas. What am I sensing and feeling not just internally, but externally? Right. You know, what am I gleaning from my environment? What am I, you know, noticing within myself? Hold that. Come back in. What are the thoughts coming up? What are the beliefs? What are the emotions? Right. Again, staying curious. And then what, what behavior wants to happen here? You know, do I want to stay in this room with this group of people? Do I feel like I can speak? You know, do I want to run away? Do I, you know, like start to get curious about what kind of transpires in that, that feedback loop? And that's what fuels the ability to switch with conscious awareness. I, I believe, you know, and with engagement. So once you kind of like tap into those and that can be out of order. It depends on wherever you want to enter. Then it's like, oh, okay, I do have some choices here. Like if I'm going to stay in this group, in this context, you know, what do I, you know, do I want to try to speak this language? Do I know I can't and so I want to try to do this, you know, am I going to keep, you know, like, for me, my hands are always moving. That's a very, you know, part of the Brazilian thing. So, like, that's going to go with me no matter what. So if I try to stop that, that feels hard in my system. So that's a choice that I get to make. It's like, even if I'm on the pueblo, I'm going to be talking with my hands. So there's micro choices like that that can actually make a huge difference in terms of feeling connection and being in relationship.
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B
And I thought this piece here was so powerful in terms of how you can work with people, you can support people in building these sort of capacities, because it really is showing us, like, how you can. Even if this feels like not a lot, there's so much to work with and to kind of clarify, give an example. What I mean is, like, the feedback loop that you described, it was so helpful for me. Last year, I went on a trip to Palestine. It had been quite a while since the last time I'd been there because I traveled all through my childhood. And then I went back last. Last spring, and as you can imagine, it was really powerful and also very intense and heavy in many ways. But it was so helpful for me. Like, I had your framework, like, in your presence, like, so present with me. And it was that loop I was noticing.
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Right.
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What was happening in the moment. But it wasn't just that being curious about the loop. It was also like, I was. I had kind of brought with me kind of your sentiment, your. Your voice of, like, acknowledging the. The validity of that experience I was having.
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A
Yeah.
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As like, it's. It's real. As opposed to that general thing of feeling like, oh, I'm not fluent enough in the language. I'm rusty. I'm out of touch with the like. Like, in that all. That's where your head gets in the way of, like, you're not living up to. To it.
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C
Right.
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B
It's not good enough. It's not real enough.
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A
Oh, my gosh. The not good enough. Yes.
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B
Not good enough. Right. Not being enough of the thing. Right. And just this sense of, like, being able to work with, like. Like, I'm sadly not fluent in Arabic and working on it. But, like, even the few things I can say, I can speak some. Just the enormous amount of rich kind of sensory material that came when I allowed myself to do it and then was working with the. The loop and the being, tracking it.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Like, it's just. It was. It actually had a really powerful effect on me. Like, it had a. An very, very positive experience in that way. And. And so I just. I just want to say that to give an example of your work is so. So dedicated to the practice, the healing work, the experiential.
- [25:27]
A
Thank you. Thank you. And this is one of the things where I have to trust the universe, because I think when you and I first spoke, we never know where our work will land. And I don't care how good AI Gets, it's not going to capture all the small connections that lead to other small connections. So to hear that you had somehow found the chapter, had been working with it with your students, and that it was meaningful enough to you to include it in a curriculum was, like, huge for me, because that's really all I've ever wanted it to be, was of support to folks. And then your own personal experience for me is so healing, because the irony about having this kind of multicultural identity is that even though it's part of so many things, it's actually incredibly isolating. So I don't know about you, but for me, for a long time, it felt like I was the only one that was feeling these kind of things, and that if I just changed this or learned that or got better at whatever else it was, then everything would get quiet and I'd be okay. You know, I'd feel like I belonged wherever I was trying to belong. It's been like both through the process of that chapter and, you know, teaching and working with this book and doing workshops and meeting other folks that have lived in between, you know, identities, you know, moving between our identities. That's been the healing process for me to know that I'm not alone in it. You know, the particulars of the story may be different, but the felt sense of the experience is very similar. And that means a lot to me that you brought that with you to Palestine and that it was hopefully, you know, and I. I know for sure putting good energy into a place that really needs it right now. So thank you.
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B
Yes. Yeah. What you're talking about there reminds me of what I mean. You offer a lot of concepts to kind of, you know, help explore and expand the language. And one concept you talk about that has also meant a lot for you. I feel like you were speaking a bit to it with the loneliness is this concept of cultural homelessness. Oh.
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A
Oh, my gosh.
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B
I know.
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A
Yeah, that article. Someday I will meet the people who wrote that article. That was one of the first things that I found in my research when I was doing the work, which was based on my master's paper at Naropa University, by the way. So for those folks out there that are students right now, it's like find the spark of interest that comes to you during your program, follow it and you never know where it will lead. So like, literally this was something that came to me probably during my second year of the program. It's a three year program. Found this article deeply academic article. So this is not creative writing that you're reading, right. And it brought me to tears. It's probably the only academic article I've ever read that brought me to tears because it just spoke to something in me that I'm like, oh, that's what that is. It's that, what's the word I'm kind of using, like, you know, putting my fingers together, sort of this intangible thing to try to hold on to. It's like a gossamer thin feeling of recognition that you just can't quite grab about who you are and your place in the world and you know, like the memories that just slip out of your fingers of like, oh, that's when I felt like I got it when I was there. And I, you know, and for some folks that, you know, have worked with clients that are generations away from that moment of community and belonging and you know, or adoptees I've also worked with, you know, in this, in this context too, that's farther away to hold onto, but the body still knows it, right? So that sense of longing, of almost there, that's tangible. It's so tangible and we can reclaim it. You know, it, it is like our knowing is definitely passed down. I know that, you know, there are movements in me that I know that my mother's mother's mothers have, have done, you know, things that feel familiar. Same thing with all my, you know, my native side and like, you know, making the bread that we do, like I, I, I just seem to know how to do that. It feels familiar, right? So there's a trust in that. And that's, that's where I, I hope folks can go, allow themselves to go because sometimes it can sound a little woo woo. It's not though, you know, like it's just kind of letting one part of ourselves step out of the way so that, you know, we can have a felt sense experience that may not make sense in the moment, but definitely makes sense overall.
- [30:15]
B
Yeah, that term and the way you described your experience of coming to it, it just captures so much for me, about your work about, like, you also say that it's this very interesting, very close link between, like, this experience of the loneliness and lack of recognition and then being recognized in it. Like, it's such an interesting paradox and there's like a. A weaving of that throughout your book where you really capture this, like the, the. The. The paradox in that. And, and I. What I really. I mean, my biggest kind of aha. Takeaway from your book is that this is why the, the somatic embodied, including spiritual work, experiential work, like, is necessary. Because that is what helps us be with the contradictions of life. Like in a. In a dynamic way of, you know, a process as opposed to an abstract idea or a static identity or an endpoint.
- [31:21]
A
Yeah, yeah. It's, you know, you've taught embodied code switching in class. I got the, you know, great opportunity to do that as a full semester class at Naropa. It's specialized approaches in body psychotherapy. But it's following the track of the book and the class that I had this year. I just will always hold a special place in my heart. One of the most diverse groups of folks I think I've ever had the pleasure of being in a room with across the board, race, gender, sexual identity, even international students. So we had a lot in the room in terms of exploration for this work. And there was a process of letting go that I needed to do for myself. Because with. With work that is as personal as this has been for me, there is a young part of myself that wanted to be recognized in this particular combination of identities. Do you know what I mean? That's like, okay, we're only going to be talking about like, the big I identities like race and nationality. And, you know, and I didn't want people to tap into roles like, you know, being a parent or being a. What, you know, And I let that go because I'm like, you know what? I. I want folks to tap into whatever is present and real. And for me, it's the switch that's important. Right. Feeling that because especially as therapists, we're going to feel that in our clients. We're gonna feel it in ourselves. We're gonna feel it in the work that. That we create together, the healing work with our clients. Right? We're going to notice when, if you want to call them, parts are coming up differently or trauma is present in the room. Like, all of those are factors of how we embody our experience. So the group that I got to work with, when we got to Embodied code switching near the end of the semester, what identities they chose, who came forward, and the insights that they got from literally, like an hour, maybe, of doing this work, barely even that, because we didn't have a long class, was profound in ways that I could have not predicted at all. And there were so many layers to this work that I started to appreciate through the ways that others are applying it, embodying it, and consider it in their present moment, experience in a way that I am limited, honestly, because of my own experience. So that's the other layer of complexity that we throw in here is like, if we start sharing this with each other, it becomes a kaleidoscope. You know what I mean? Like, it's just, boom. It opens up so many different appreciations for what the nuances of different identities and different ways of embodying those identities can be. And yes, it absolutely, I think, for me, has to involve and include power, oppression, and privilege, because that is so huge of a factor in how identities get to exist in the world. Okay, so we can't ignore that piece. Trauma is also a huge piece. That's why there are two chapters. Absolutely. Power. Yeah. One power, One trauma. And those are the. I called that section the forces that shape multicultural identity. So we cannot ignore those. An intergenerational trauma, in particular, is incredibly important to me because, you know, what are we carrying? You know, is this our present moment, or is this, you know, coming from our lineage? Is it all of the above? Like, that all needs to be included in this experience. And the beauty is in the discovery, you know, not only of our own nuances and intersectionalities, but in those of others. And I think that's where compassion and empathy can flourish, is when we feel the edges of our experiences together.
- [35:19]
B
Yeah. And feeling. And experience them together. Right. So it's the relational piece. And I'm thinking here as you're talking about how, you know, in the field, we. It was like there was the big wave of, you know, cultural competence. Right.
- [35:37]
C
Yeah.
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B
Back in the day.
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A
Yeah.
- [35:38]
B
That was, of course, problematic. And we had to sort of. You know, there was lots of issues with that term and that. That approach. So that was critiqued, rightfully so. And then we started talking about cultural humility, which is, of course, still important, but. But there's also something, like, left. Like, it's not enough. Right. And I think it's because these. These terms are so. Like, they. They describe these, like, abstract ideas of, like, reaching some sort of, like, a skill, for example, or competency or a state or Something where you can't narrow down to that when you're talking about something that is really process and like relational dynamic and experiential. Somatic. Sensory dynamic.
- [36:25]
A
Yes. I think another kind of field that I've been able to be a part of for some years is the intercultural communications field. And that's also included in the book in terms of some of the categories. So it's not a therapeutic modality, but they certainly speak to nonverbal communication and intercultural communication in ways that I deeply appreciate. And, of course, they are also going through their own shifts and changes around how do we define. Do we even define cultural difference? So that's always something to hold lightly. I think culture is interesting that way. It's both deeply defined and always elusive. Folks want to put it in stone. It's like, this is the culture and this is what it. And by its very nature, because culture is made up of people, it will always shift and change. Right. So how do we hold the consistency and the preservation? And here I'm speaking as an indigenous person, how do we hold on to our traditions in the face of a world that wants to erase them? For many communities that are in that same position, that question comes up. And yet how do I stay fluid enough to interact in really, a world that is truly connected globally now? Right. Interconnected is probably a better word. So, you know, it's. There is a. I think, just almost a perfect fit with what we talk about with somatic counseling in terms of our awareness of our own ability to move not just physically, but with our awareness as well. And the relational piece of. And what intercultural communication holds as the basic tenet of developing that ability of understanding other cultures, it doesn't come from reading books. It doesn't. I mean, it can a little bit, but really, it comes into being from being in relationship with someone from a different culture. That's the basic tenet of intercultural communications. It's like, be in a relationship with someone from another culture and you start to develop your abilities to understand another culture. Because now you're in relationship with a person, Right. Or with a place or with an area. So that's where things like exposure is so important. Just be in a place where you don't know the language. Be in a place where you don't know the ways and just be in it and just track yourself. Notice what comes up. Right.
- [39:06]
B
Yeah. This reminds me of you. You also, you. You. I mean, you have lots of references in literature. Like, the book will give you also, like, a nice Kind of introduction to all this rich literature that you've clearly dived into and research for. For this book. You, you quote Edward T. Hall's work several times. Anthropologist, which was really powerful to kind of get a bit more acquainted with that and, and what you were just talking about, about like this, it's the experiences that are necessary for the building up these capacities. Well, I was really struck by what you added to Edward Hall's some of his concepts because of what came up in your classes about. So there are different ways we understand spatial awareness and then cultural space and then also collective unconscious space. Could you speak a bit to that? Because I love that so much.
- [40:08]
A
Yeah. I'm also drawn to Jung, as you can tell, and Naropa for folks who are not familiar. It's a contemplative based educational model. So there's a great deal of influence from Buddhist inspired philosophies and practices. The somatic program a little less so than the other programs. But, but, but really that you know, we are always holding in terms of our approach, you know, is curiosity, oscillation of attention and awareness, which is kind of, you know, different points of awareness and incorporating all that. And for me, you know, space, I don't know why I've always been very drawn to the importance of space. And maybe it is because that's the first nonverbal piece that I remember being different between the cultures that I was from in terms of personal bubble space. Right. So in Brazil, of course, very close, lots of kissing on the cheeks and you know, a very different personal bubble distance between folks than from the pueblo, which is farther away, less touch and less contact in general. And then the U.S. kind of, you know, day to day that I was in was, you know, a bigger personal space thing too. And yet, you know, through Naropa, the students, and just my own, you know, journey through life, there is a greater than space, right, that we all tap into and how do we feel into that? What do we co create when we're together as a large group? You know, that is, that is a different environment. Each group has its own energetic signature, its own rhythm, its own base of knowledge that we feed into, whether it's verbal or non verbal. And so if that's true, if I can hold that true for the classes that I've taught in the workshops I've done, which I've seen over and over again, then the jump to collective unconscious is not that far, you know. And you know, there are so many things we have not yet discovered about how we know what we know about each other. You know, stories about someone knowing that a relative has passed away and they're nowhere near each other. Right. A connection that you have to someone that you can feel in your body, where they are, what they're doing. You know, there's many different names for it, but I think that there's different levels of connection and impact that we're not acknowledging quite yet. And I think in some ways we're starting to feel now, but only through the impact of technology. So this is where we could slide into a whole AI technology conversation, which is another one for a longer time. But it is mimicking in some ways what I think collective unconscious is already doing in terms of, you know, each of us having an impact on ourselves throughout the world. Like, what I do eventually will have an impact. Like we're talking about the book, like, through that we've met and now this has happened, and now the conversation we're happening will touch other people's lives. There is ripple effects. Right. So, yeah, I think that I want folks to consider their impact beyond just where they think they can see the direct result. And especially for therapists, that's very important because oftentimes we don't know if our impact has taken root or we hope that our clients are going to continue to be on their healing journey even if we're not able to be with them. We have to trust in the seeds that we plant and that our words will and our actions will have meaning.
- [43:44]
B
Yes. And this makes me think about what I loved about your book is I feel like your book is really showing something that I'm very passionate about. And it's the way that theory and practice does not have to be these, like, totally separate, fragmented spheres. Like, there is a way where really theory come to life and becomes embodied. And there's also a way that the embodied experiences of life not only impact and influence theory, but produce theory, produce new thoughts, new ideas, new ways of thinking. And it's. I feel like the way that this book really weaves together this. And shows like the sort of the pedagogy of your book. The. The method of it is very experiential. But you're also showing the reader this sort of like this range of concepts and topics and theories and ideas that are just crucial for the work. So I don't know. What's your thoughts? I know it's a big topic, but this topic of the interplay between our relationship between theory and practice.
- [45:06]
A
Oh, it was. It was so. That was something that was so Important to me, I think, with this book is. And this is the interesting thing. I had thought about writing a book before COVID hit, and I thought I would write it during that time. If I had tried to write it during that time, it would have been a very different book. It would have been very academic. Right. But because of what I went through in my life and this different style of writing that I discovered that I mentioned before, during COVID which was much more observational, introspective, but like a little bit different, which was born out of the experience of being in isolation, you know, there was a way that I was able to consider what's the kind of book that can bring all of these different styles together in itself being a multicultural way of writing. You know, that's. I wanted the book to embody what I was asking folks to join me to experience in the book. So the book, you know, I love research. I'm just one of those people that loves research. I love reading. I was the kid that would, like, go to the library after school and hang out there because I loved the books, read a lot. So I've gathered that over time. I wanted that to be part of it. I also included my personal stories. So the one that starts off the book, but between the sections, there's always a piece of introspective writing that I offer so that folks can hear me kind of working through that particular topic myself. And then it's deeply experiential. There's a lot of exercises in there to pause and to engage with. And then there's these little thought bubbles, which actually a friend of mine had given me as a suggestion that is sort of my. My therapist voice that's in there. So they're kind of floaty little cloud bubbles, you know, that have things like, you know, take a moment, you know, notice what you're. What you're feeling. You know, if. If this is a lot right now, take a break, you know, like that kind of thing, you know, and so there's different ways of. Of, I hope people feeling me in that book. I also made a decision not to use client or student vignettes in very purposely because, and I'll be really blunt, those are not my stories to tell, you know, And I know that many therapists in their books have used those as examples, and I think they can be very useful. But for me, I really wanted the reader or the listener, however they're engaging with the book, to be the ones forming their own experience and making their own decisions around this. It's hard enough, I think, with social media to be constantly comparing ourselves to how we think we should be doing these things, right or wrong, you know, like the skill development piece of it. That's not really what I was aiming for in the book. I wanted it to be an invitation and a shared journey. And so, you know, it's also deeply purposeful in terms of how the pages look. There's different fonts, the spacing is set up in a certain way. Like, I wanted there to be rhythm and spaciousness in there so that folks could find their way however they wanted to in the book. And by the way, I realized by the time I got to the end of the book that it's really not even that linear. You can open it up wherever you want to open it up, and whatever costs, you start there. And I mean that, like, start there. Like, I'm one of those people that felt, you know, like, I need to start a book, go through the middle and get to the end, and then cheating if I'm at the end. Cheat if you want to go wherever you want to experience it, and then bounce around and see what calls you.
- [48:30]
B
Yeah, you say that in the. In the beginning of the book, you mentioned that, like these. The chapters can be read in a different order. And it's interesting also, it's the last chapter that's the embodied code switching chapter, which I had already. It was the chapter you'd written before that was then developed. And I think, yeah, it is a book where you can kind of go in and read it. For example, if the reader was interested in the things about power, there's the power chapter you can dive into. There's the trauma chapter in that way, I think also in the beginning, your first, the chapters on, like, embodiment, that really is a really nice kind of foundational. And also then how. Then that relates to culture. So moving between culture. I do think, though, at the same time, there is sort of a scaffolding, so people could also read it in the order, because I do think it does offer a really nice sort of, like, scaffolding and building up, as we know, this can be tender stuff for some people to work through. And you're working with it in a therapeutic process context.
- [49:38]
A
Yeah, and I agree. And particularly for the embodiment piece, I really wanted to develop that a bit more because I think we're starting to get to the point in somatic counseling, and maybe just in general, where the term embodiment is being thrown around all over the place to represent a variety of different expectations, which is something that I do not love about the Western mode of anything when it starts to get hold of something that looks like it's a great new cash making modality. So I wanted to infuse embodiment with some considerations about what it could mean. And so for me, I put it together with the intercultural, non, you know, nonverbal communication pieces that I talked about before, like what, what does that mean? It and then talked about sort of the sensory awareness piece of it too. So we could, you know, consider both what is the body doing, but then also what is the body noticing? Non verbally could be parts of embodiment. And even before then, the discussion on body itself is, you know, amazing how quickly we kind of gloss over that when we're in the somatic programs. It is the root of what we're exploring. And it is one of the most tender and impactful and powerful places to start. So even the consideration of what does body mean, you know, and I give some offerings in terms of body as body is, you know, body doing, body being, you know, like. And we did this in class, we expanded all of that, and the students were adding more categories to the ways that their bodies have been considered in the ways that they consider their bodies. And then encompassing all of that is what I called cultural embodiment. And for me, that's where it really encompassed three main aspects, which was social awareness, which includes empathy and belonging. Environmental awareness, which is place and space and how our places and spaces speak to us and how we inform our places and spaces, and emotional awareness, which is a wonderful topic to dive into because emotions are so culturally bound and where we feel them in our bodies are completely different, you know, and if you explore that in class, you will find, or in yourself, you will find that where you feel what you would name sadness might be in a different place entirely in the body than where someone else might feel. What they feel is sadness. Right. It's fascinating. So all those three pieces to me speak to how different cultures consider the experience of social relationships and belonging, what empathy looks like and feels like, how our places and spaces are created by us and how they create us, and then how we feel our emotions and how we express them. All of that is important.
- [52:36]
B
And this model here, how you just described that, you also created a really gorgeous sort of visual. There's a graphic of this that you're talking about. And I was just looking at it here as you were talking about it. It's on page 124. Because the way you were talking about. So there's body and there's several layers to that. And then there's embodiment and then there's cultural embodiment. So you can imagine like the concentric circles these are, and you've done them like ovals, which I love. And there's even like your own you've made so people can like, you could do your own, you can fill in your own. And there's exercises. And I, I love this stuff. I'm also very like visual, a visual learner. So I love this. And I, I felt like this wasn't just an exercise to fill in with, with like little scribbles. Like I want to do some piece of art around this because so rich with this because it's really, I think it really visually captures that you're talking. It's like an expansive model. It's not like a step or stage model. It's. It's really about expanding the layers of what you're talking about.
- [53:46]
A
Yeah, there's so many models that are linear and I think when we see the linear, that's where more shoulds come up, to be honest. Like, it's, oh, if I'm not here, then I'm supposed to be here, then I'm supposed to be all the way to the right at the end. You know what I mean? Like left to right. If that's how you're looking at kind of some of the models or kind of tiers and hierarchy. I wanted to move away from that and I wanted as much as I could to bring a three dimensionality to the exercises. And even the embodied code switching, the infinity loop at the very end, there's different colors and shapes that I've put in there to represent the different identities, to represent that we have movement within movement. So within ourselves, we've got different felt senses of our identities that come to the foreground, some that say to the background. And then our contexts kind of call forward. Maybe one or two of those or maybe none of them. That gets to just the invitation to bring movement to something that can feel
- [54:47]
B
static, you know, movement within movement. I love that. And yeah, there's also a big visual component to the embodied code switching. It's sort of. It's difficult to describe just verbally. I think people have to go and see it and like, see what it looks like. Because when you see the visuals of the way that you have that the SIA loop in the middle and then the embodied code switching loops are sort of expanding to that. But I know. So you Actually, on your website, are there any of the graphics there or is it more just in the book?
- [55:30]
A
No, it's in the book. The website is always a work in progress, so at some point I might do that. I also just touched. Let people know in the book. I said that I was going to do recordings of some of the exercises. I'm still working on that. So I will offer that at some point. And, you know, I have workshops and things coming up, which I can also talk about later. But, you know, for me, it's been really just a process of coming from this beautiful place of writing the book. You know, I was able to do that full time. I was very fortunate. So I had about a year to write the book. It came out in about nine months. It came out pretty quickly. So I do see the parallel there between kind of a birthing process, which it felt very much like, and I am an introvert. So having the book be birthed, come into the world and start to navigate sort of how to be in front of the book as well. Even though I wanted to be behind the book, if that makes sense, and just starting to learn how to work with it. As a faculty member of naropa, doing workshops, just connecting with folks and learning what touches them about this work. That's where I feel like I'm at right now and just finding ways of supporting and bringing the work to people. Because I think one thing that I have heard from my students, when we talked about difference in diversity, folks are in pain around these terms. They're exhausted by the fight. Folks have a lot more capacity, I think, than we're giving them credit for, to come together. And I'm hoping that this work offers a way to do that. And however we define our identities, that's where I want to start. So, you know, I'm excited to become connected to more folks having this lived experience and to learn from the ways that they've been able to move through the world and have this be of service to them.
- [57:37]
B
Yeah. Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate your work and you taking the time to talk about it. I know this book is gonna be really exciting and stimulating for a lot of people. It's very rich. And kind of the clinical creativity is very, very rich. As we're kind of coming up to the end here, I've wanted you to. You talked a little bit about it, but if you wanted to just say some more about where people can find your work and other projects you're doing, your website will, of course, be in the show. Notes, but anything else you wanted to add and also maybe future projects.
- [58:21]
A
Yeah. So at this moment in time I am not seeing private practice clients. I've shifted into teaching and supervising and doing workshops. And so I am currently on the faculty of Naropa University in the Somatic Counseling graduate program. Very happy to be part of that, both for in person classes. And we just started a low residential online degree program, so that's pretty exciting. I'm happy that that's able to reach folks now that wouldn't be able to move to Boulder, Colorado. So excited to see where that's going to lead the class that follows. The book is called Specialized Approaches to Body Psychotherapy. So of course you have to be enrolled in order to take that class through Naropa and I'll continue doing that both in person and online. As far as outside trainings, I'm going to be offering one through the International Somatic Movement Education and Therapists association is Meta at the end of the month and you can find that through social media on my LinkedIn and Facebook and Instagram. I'm kind of doing some updates on the website, so I'm not sure if we're going to catch it in time for it to be on the website, but check out ismedna, they have a professional development center now. So you can get my class and many other classes through that offering. And then I'll be at a couple of conferences. I'll be at the European association for Body Psychotherapy in September doing a workshop and I'll be doing an intensive with a colleague of mine, Wendy Allen, Dr. Wendy Allen the American Dance Therapy Association. And I have reviews actually from both those organizations coming out. ADTA in their journal reviewed the book which was really lovely and well received. And then the International Body Psychotherapy Journal is also in process of having the book reviewed by Dr. Ray Johnson. So I'm kind of like that's going to be.
- [60:15]
B
That is exciting. Yes. Yeah. And yeah, the International Body Psychotherapy Journal. Yeah, we can certainly also plug that. I'm on the editorial board and yeah, we're very excited to see these new books come out. And that's by the way, open access. So anyone can go and read the review of your book and all the other articles.
- [60:40]
A
And if folks want to work with me as a clinical supervisor or a clinical consultant, I'm happy to do that as well. I love the one on one work and group work as well. So any way I can support.
- [60:52]
B
Well, thank you so much again. It was really, really wonderful. Thank you so much for your time. Is there anything else you wanted to add?
- [61:01]
A
Oh no, just such a pleasure. And I love where our field is starting to reach and explore and move and be. I think the connections that organizations are starting to form with each other and with practitioners in the world and therapists is. I think that's going to be something quite important to see in the years to come. I think the somatic work is deeply needed and more than relevant, especially through the cultural lens. We need it.
- [61:34]
B
I agree. I think the future is somatic, but
- [61:37]
A
it's always been yes, I agree.
- [61:40]
C
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