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Marion Orr, "House of Diggs: The Rise and Fall of America's Most Consequential Black Congressman, Charles C. Diggs Jr." (UNC Press, 2025)
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- [00:00]
A
Hello, everybody. This is Marshall Po. I'm the founder and editor of the New Books Network. And if you're listening to this, you know that the NBN is the largest academic podcast network in the world. We reach a worldwide audience of 2 million people. You may have a podcast or you may be thinking about starting a podcast. As you probably know, there are challenges basically of two kinds. One is technical. There are things you have to know in order to get your podcast produced and distributed. And the second is, and this is the biggest problem, you need to get an audience. Building an audience in podcasting is the hardest thing to do today. With this in mind, we at the NBM have started a service called NBN Productions. What we do is help you create a podcast, produce your podcast, distribute your podcast, and we host your podcast. Most importantly, what we do is we distribute your podcast to the NBN audience. We've done this many times with many academic podcasts and we would like to help you. If you would be interested in talking to us about how we can help you with your podcast, please contact us. Just go to the front page of the New Books Network and you will see a link to NBN Productions. Click that, fill out the form and we can talk. Welcome to the New Books Network.
- [01:07]
B
Hello. Welcome to the New Books in History channel of the New Books Network podcast. I am your host, Ari Barbelette. Today I'm grateful to engage in a dialogue with Marion Orr. We will discuss his newly published book, the House of Digs, the Rise and Fall of America's Most Consequential Black Congressman, Charles C. Diggs, Jr. Published in Chapel Hill, North Carolina by University of North Carolina Press, 2025. Marion Orr is the inaugural Frederick Lippitt professor of Public Policy and Professor of Political Science and Urban Studies at Brown University. He previously was a member of the political science faculty at Duke University. Marian, it's an honor to be in dialogue with you today.
- [01:58]
C
Well, thank you so much for inviting me and I'm looking forward to our conversation.
- [02:04]
B
To begin, please tell us about yourself. Where did you grow up? What formative events in your life inspired the researcher he would later become?
- [02:12]
C
Yeah, I was born and raised in Savannah, Georgia and I the working class family there and I attended graduated from college Savannah State. It's now Savannah State University. It was called Savannah State College when I was there. It's a historically black college there in my hometown. It was at Savannah State that I got interested in political science as a profession. I was taught at Savannah State by a brilliant political scientist. His name was Haynes Walton Haynes, like the T shirt maker, Haynes Walton. And Professor Walton taught many of the courses in political science at Savannah State. And he was just a dynamic, engaging and very smart professor. And I just was impressed with him. And I remember Ari running home and telling my mom and dad I wanted to be a political science professor. I was 18 years old, and Professor Walton remained my friend and mentor until his death in 2013. And so I credit Professor Walton for really steering me in this direction in terms of political science, in particular, studying African Americans, black Americans and their politics.
- [03:39]
B
What inspired you to write this book? What message do you hope to convey to readers?
- [03:45]
C
I had learned about Congressman Charles C. Diggs Jr. When I was an undergraduate student at Savannah State College. He came up, that is, Congressman Diggs came up often in many of the courses I took. And so I had a sense leaving Savannah State that Charles Diggs was a significant and consequential leader. I learned more about the congressman, still more about him when I went to graduate school in political science and learned more about his contributions. And as a professional political science scientist rather, I realized that no book had been written on the congressman. And so I took the plunge. I felt that I. I felt going into this project that this guy was significant and consequential and that someone had to record and put in place his contributions. He left his papers at Howard University, whole bunch of papers, his personal documents, his congressional correspondence. And so with the, with the archives, you have a good bit of data to work with. And so I, I took the plunge and it was a fun project. It took me 10 years to complete the research, the writing and the rewriting to produce the book.
- [05:14]
B
What are the primary themes in this book? What story and stories does this book tell?
- [05:20]
C
Well, the book chronicles from birth to death, Congressman Diggs life. The biographers call it a from credo to gray account. And so it captures stories around the congressman, his upbringing in Detroit, Michigan. His parents were part of the Great Migration. So there's some discussion about the Great Migration there. The book covers Diggs career in the state Senate in Michigan. And it chronicles his nearly 25 years as a member of the House of Representatives representing Detroit. He was Detroit's, or rather he was Michigan's first black American congressman. So it tells a story that covers really from the slavery days because I talk about his great grandparents who were significant people in their own right, all the way up to the 1980s when Diggs left Congress. So you really capturing a whole lot of the civil rights movement, you capturing the rise of electoral politics that is the election of black members of Congress, black mayors. So you're capturing a whole lot. When you're covering the period in which Congressman Biggs served in Congress, you really covering the rise of the civil rights movement and the maturation of black electoral politics. So it covers a large component of American history.
- [07:07]
B
What were the most difficult choices Charles Diggs Jr. Faced in his life? What were the hardest personal and political decisions he had to make? How did he resolve these problems? Can you explain the dilemmas of situational ethics he encountered?
- [07:27]
C
I think Charles Diggs had to come to grips with how to become and how to be an effective member of Congress. And he was only the fifth black American to serve in the US to be elected in the House in the 20th century. So when he arrived, he had to make a decision about how to approach politics. And what I say in the book and write in the book is that Diggs put out a path of what I call the politics of strategic moderation. That is, Diggs decided that in the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s, the best approach for black Americans to achieve political incorporation into the American political system was to. For him to. For black Americans to have a broad approach, to have a broad coalition. And so one of the things that Diggs was very, very keen about is coalition building. How do you build a broad coalition to support black American civil rights in a period where black Americans are both a racial minority and a numerical minority? And so Diggs decided that in the Congress, where you had to build coalitions, where you had to get majority support, that the best approach for black Americans was this broad based approach, meaning inclusive coalition, that may have to include conservatives, that may have to also include radical black militants. And so he was really keen on trying this strategic approach, moderate approach. He was really a race man. He wasn't a moderate on race, but he was a moderate on his approach. And so I think, for me, when I think about Diggs and the decisions he had to make, he decided strategically that if I'm going to be an effective member of Congress, I really have to plot an approach that was different from the previous black members of Congress. I think that's one of the things I think he had to struggle with. And he did it quite effectively. That is, his approach, his strategically moderate approach was quite effective in bringing people along. In terms of building coalitions in Congress and coalitions outside of Congress.
- [10:20]
B
What is Charles Diggs Jr. S legacy in American politics?
- [10:25]
C
Well, Charles Diggs Jr. S legacy In American politics is significant. And here is a man who spent a Good part of his adult life fighting for racial justice, fighting for civil rights in two continents in the US And North America and in Southern Africa, on the continent of Africa. So he left a legacy that touches both this country, our country, the U.S. and southern African countries in Africa. And so his legacy is profound. Let me just give you an example. Charles Diggs was the founder, the founder of the Congressional Black Caucus, which today is a caucus in the house of some 60 plus black members of Congress. It is perhaps today one of the most powerful black political organizations in the country. Diggs was also the chief sponsor, the chief sponsor of the legislation that pro, that restore, that restored home rule to Washington D.C. today in Washington D.C. residents and voters there can elect their mayor, their city council members, school board members. Prior to 1973, that was not the case. The mayor of Washington D.C. city council members were appointed by the U.S. president. And Diggs used his strategic position within Congress to push through the Congress a home rule bill that restored local democracy in Washington D.C. after some 100 years. So his legacy is very, very broad. His work in Southern Africa is significant. Charlie Diggs was the leading advocate in the Congress in terms of bringing down the racist regime in South Africa, the apartheid regime. The American anti apartheid movement started literally in Charles Diggs congressional office in the 1950s and 1960s. He was a real leader in raising the voices about our nations, that is the US Government's relationship with the racist regime in South Africa. So he has a large legacy that touches two, two continents here in the U.S. north America and in Africa.
- [13:39]
B
What were Charles Diggs Jr. S political skills and political strengths? Can you evaluate Charles Diggs Jr. As a communicator, as a negotiator, as an activist, as a deal maker, as a campaigner, as a tactician, as an orator?
- [13:59]
C
In the Congress, especially on the House side of the Congress, members are sometimes referred to as either a show horse or a workhorse. The show horses, those folk who get a lot of press and do a lot of media attention. The workhorse are those who spend a lot of time working on legislation and trying to build support in the Congress for substantive legislation. Charlie Diggs was without question a workhorse. He worked really hard. He was quiet, he was unassuming. He got along well with his colleagues. He got along well with almost everyone that he encountered. I interviewed, I interviewed many, several people who've served with him in Congress. And the consistent theme was that he was really a wonderful, genuine, good person. And hence he got along well with a lot of people. That helps in terms of trying to build coalitions, to try to get support in Congress, where you have Republicans and Democrats, where you have conservatives and liberals. So being able to get along with folks, to have that kind of capacity is very, very important. I think that benefited Digs a lot of. And many of his colleagues whom I talked to emphasize how he really was an unassuming, hard working guy who got along well with lots of people. Diggs, excuse me, was also keen, keen on building coalitions outside of Congress. I think this is something that made him also effective. He always understood that to get things done to Congress, you often have to have political pressure from the electorate. And so hence Diggs was very, very keen on working with groups outside of the Congress. That, too, made him quite effective.
- [16:08]
B
How does your research shed new light on the history and evolution of the Congressional Black Caucus?
- [16:16]
C
The research provides for the first time a real accounting of how the CBC was formed. For example, in the Diggs archives, I found a letter which I am certain is the first written proposal for what would become the Congressional Black Caucus. In January of 1957, John H. Johnson, who was the founder and publisher of EBONY magazine and JET magazine, these are two premier black publications in the 40s, 50s, 60s and into the 2000s. John H. Johnson, in January of 1957, wrote a letter to each of the three black members of Congress. And in that letter of 1957, Johnson proposed to Adam Clayton Powell, who was the black Congress member from Harlem. He also proposed to William Dawson, who was the black Congress member from Chicago, and Charlie Diggs, who was from Detroit. He wrote those three members and said, hey, you three black. They called us Negroes. And he said, you3 Negroes, Congress members should form a Negro caucus, a caucus that would be separate from your regular staff. And if the three of you, Johnson wrote in this letter, if the three of you could come together in one voice, you would have much more power and influence. So one of the things that my book uncovers for the first time is that the idea behind a black caucus did not come from the politicians, did not come from Charlie Diggs, but it came from a business executive who felt that he had to pulse a black America through JET magazine and EBONY magazine. And he writes to these three members and said, hey, you guys could have a louder, more powerful voice if you formed this Negro caucus. Now, let me tell you real quickly that Adam Clayton Powell dismissed the suggestion of a black caucus. Adam Clayton Powell was one who felt that he had lots of power, influence himself as one individual. So he sent a dismissive sort of letter to Johnson saying, oh, we're very busy guys, we can't do this kind of stuff. William L. Dawson, the congressman from Chicago, was a black conservative who did not believe in what he might call black separation organizations like the Negro Caucus. And so there's no record of whether or not Dawson even responded to Mr. Johnson's suggestion. So while Dawson did not respond and while Adam Klain Powell was dismissive of the idea, young Congressman Diggs took this idea very seriously. And he responded with a very, very thoughtful letter to John H. Johnson about his idea. And essentially what Diggs said to John h. Johnson in 1957 in his response letter was hey, we are only three black members and we will be doing ourselves a disservice if we should confine ourselves among just the three. However, Diggs did not dismiss the idea totally. What he said to Johnson in this letter is that, you know what? This sounds good, this sounds great. Perhaps when the complexion, and that's the word he used, the complexion of the caucus, I'm sorry, of the Congress should change. Meaning perhaps once we have more black members then we might consider forming a Negro caucus. And as we now know, in 1969 Diggs would organize the 5, 6 counting himself members into a group called the Democratic Select Committee. That was in 1969 with six black members. And then in 1971 the Democratic Select Committee became the Congressional Black caucus with 13 founding members.
- [21:01]
B
Can you comment on the House of Diggs and Diggs Enterprises?
- [21:06]
C
The House of Diggs was a funeral home founded by Charles Diggs Sr. And Mamie Diggs, the Congressman's parents. The parents were part of the great Migration and they moved to Detroit in 1913, 1915 or so and in 1922 Charles Diggs Senior and Mamie Diggs form the House of Diggs Funeral Home. The House of Diggs Funeral Home became by the 1950s early 60s the largest black owned funeral establishment in the United States of America. And for about 30 or more years the House of Diggs Funeral Home dominated the black funeral market in Detroit, Michigan. It made the Diggs family part of the black elite. It made Charles Diggs senior the father, very popular, made him a civic leader. And he would parlay, that is Charles Diggs senior the father will parlay the House of Diggs business success into electoral politics. Winning a seat in 1936 in the Michigan State Senate. In fact, Diggs senior was the first black Democrat elected to the Michigan State Senate. So the House of Digs was a very, very well known funeral home establishment. The Digs Enterprise was a somewhat a spin off of the House of Diggs which included an ambulance service, a flower shop, a real estate company. So the House of Diggs and Diggs Enterprises made the family part of the black elite there in Detroit. And I think it's fair to say that it is really one reason why Congressman Diggs became a Congressman because the Diggs name was so well known in Detroit, so well known in black Detroit and let me add, well liked, well liked in black Detroit.
- [23:37]
B
Can you tell us about the African American manifesto on Southern Africa?
- [23:41]
C
Yes. In 1969, Charles Diggs became the chair of the House Foreign Affairs Committee Subcommittee on Africa. So he became chair of the Africa Subcommittee in January of 1969. From this position, Diggs would lead this anti apartheid movement in the U.S. diggs became Congress's authority on Africa. He made more trips, more study visits to Africa than any other member of Congress. He was especially, that is Diggs was especially concerned about southern Africa and in particular the apartheid system in South Africa. The African manifesto was really Diggs comprehensive policy proposal that he believed the government, our government, should embrace in order to break the apartheid regime in South Africa. So the manifesto included I believe some 60 recommendations that Diggs outline. And he shared this document, the manifesto as he called it, with, to the, with the Nixon administration in particular Henry Kissinger who was the Secretary of State and National Security Advisor at the time. So the manifesto was these 60 recommendations that Charles Diggs developed from his many, many, many trips and visits, study missions to Southern Africa where he laid out the only comprehensive and thorough plan to address apartheid coming from a member of Congress.
- [25:52]
B
Can you comment On Charles Diggs Jr. S upbringing and family life?
- [25:58]
C
Charles Diggs Jr. Was born in December of 1922 in Detroit, Michigan. He was an only child to Charles Diggs Senior and Manny Diggs. His upbringing was somewhat, I guess he would say elite in a real sense. His parents owned the largest funeral home establishment, black funeral home establishment in the United states in the 1950s and 1960s. And so he grew up in privileged circumstances. He finished high school there in Detroit. He went to college at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor, the premier state university in Michigan. He would transfer from Michigan and enroll in at Fisk University, a historically black college in, in Tennessee. Diggs served in the Second World War in Alabama for about a year. He was a Tuskegee airman, the famous air pilots that were trained down in Tuskegee, Alabama. He was not a pilot, he was a administrator who sort of supposedly helped the pilots in terms of their Strategies and what have you. He wasn't a pilot, but he was an airman in that regard. When he came home from the military, his desire was to help his parents run the House of Diggs Funeral Home. So he went on and became a mortician by training. So he's a mortician by training. But politics got in the way of his plan. I think his desire to really be a businessman. And his father had served in the Michigan State Senate and left the state senate under a cloud. In fact, he was convicted of. The father was convicted of bribery. The father came back after 15 months in state prison and ran for his old senate seat and won the senate seat. But the Republicans who controlled the state legislature refused to seat him and the governor declared the seat vacant. And it turns out that Charles Diggs Jr. Ran for his father's seat and won the seat. And that would be the beginning of Diggs political career. He would run for the state senate in that special election. He would win, serve two terms and then he would run for Congress and win becoming Michigan's first black congressman. So he, he grew up in, in somewhat privileged circumstances. Everyone in Detroit, especially black people, knew of the Diggs family because of the House of Diggs in the 1940s and 1950s. If you were a black American in Detroit, you could bet that Charles Diggs and his family would be the funeral home establishment that would bury you because it was the place to go among black people who lost their loved ones and who wanted to have a, a nice funeral for their deceased loved ones.
- [29:37]
B
What was the Black Forum on Foreign Policy? The bffp. Why was it significant?
- [29:44]
C
The bffp, the Black Forum on Foreign Policy was the early attempt to build what would become known as Trans Africa. The bffp, right was an attempt to organize high level black leaders around the anti apartheid movement. Charles Dix for many, many years believed that black Americans should organize and lobby in support of Africa and Africans. The same way Jews in America organized and advocated for Jews and the Israeli state. And so Diggs in the 1950s began to talk about and to advocate for the formation of what would become Trans Africa, a black led lobby organization devoted to African policy issues. And so the black BFFP was the antecedent, if you will, to trans to Trans Africa. And it was formed by Diggs and Diggs congressional office. His staff helped put together the forum.
- [31:13]
B
What were the most fulfilling and rewarding aspects of your research and preparation process?
- [31:21]
C
Well, what I'll say to that is now that the book is completed, it's rewarding in That I have rescued the legacy of this remarkable American that we should have never forgotten. Diggs for some 25 years, was, you know, on the national, indeed, international stage and made significant contributions to America and to the world. And what I've learned over the years is that very few people remember him or they've forgotten him, or he seems to be erased from history. And so it's rewarding now to look at what I have done in terms of the research and writing and to bring together all of this man's contribution into one volume. When you do that, when you bring all of his contributions into one volume, let me add that his contributions are scattered in many books and articles. He's someone that comes up, and because he's played such a big role, but, but, but, but, but, but they're scattered in various books and articles. My book brings his contributions together into one place. And now you're able to absorb the significant and consequential influence Diggs had on America and indeed the world. So it's really gratifying to be the first, and this is the first, first biography of this remarkable American who should never have been forgotten.
- [33:13]
B
Who did you write this book for? Who do you consider your imagined audience or audiences? Who do you consider your ideal reader or readers?
- [33:22]
C
I wrote this book for a broad audience. I wrote the House of Digs to appeal to readers who have an interest in American history, readers who have an interest in political biography, for readers who have an interest in America's civil rights movement. I wrote this book for readers who know a little bit about apartheid, but not a whole lot, who can get much more about what apartheid was all about and the role that our country, the US Played in, for many years sustaining the apartheid regime in South Africa. I wrote this book because there's this real effort underway today to erase our history, American history, to erase the contributions that black Americans have made. And so I wrote this book, and this is the first book that I've written for a broad audience. This is my eighth book. But this is the first attempt to, you know, to tell you know, someone if you're interested in civil rights, if you're interested in political biography, American history, this is the book for you. And you got to know, and you must know about this man, Charles C.
- [34:50]
B
Diggs Jr. What does your book's title mean? Can you explain it?
- [34:55]
C
The title really is. Is. Is. Is gathered from the name of the funeral home that Charles Diggs and his parents owned for many years. The House of Diggs Funeral Home was formed in the 1920s and by the 1950s it dominated black Detroit's funeral market. So it was a big and important establishment. And so the title is, is taken from the funeral home. And it's a wonderful title because you know, when you see House of Digs one might really think that one is referring to the House of Representatives because Diggs was a member of the House of Representatives. But really it's a, it's a take off of the funeral home establishment that he and his parents owned for, for many years. I like the title, I think reminds you of the, of the, of the business establishment, but it also tells the reader that here's someone who actually served in the U.S. house, although the connection is really directly to the name of the funeral home establishment.
- [36:15]
B
Would you like to express gratitude publicly to anyone who was helpful in your research, writing, editing or preparation process?
- [36:23]
C
Yes, I would first of all like to thank the family of Frederick Lippitt. I, I am the inaugural professor of Public Policy, the Lippett professor of Public Policy. And the Lippitt family gave the university monies to recognize Fred Lippitt. And I could not have done the work, the research and writing without the support from Brown University. So I want to thank the university for its support. In particular the Lifford family. The other person I would thank would be the family of Charles Diggs Jr. I had a wonderful opportunity to interview all of his six children. His first wife Juanita is still alive and she gave me lots of information and insights about her ex husband. I interviewed the Congressman's first cousin, Mr. Weston Diggs, who was very, very generous with this time. So I'd like to thank the Diggs family and I would like to also thank my, my family, my wife and our daughter Ramona. Very patient with me over the past 10 years as I spent lots and lots of hours working on the book. My wife happens to be a political scientist also and she read the manuscript and she gave me good feedback. And so I could not have completed the book and done this without Ramona, my wife and our daughter William's support.
- [38:11]
B
What findings and discoveries surprised you most in your research process?
- [38:16]
C
The most surprising finding for me in this book is the identity of the confidential informant who called the Justice Department and informed them that Diggs was involved in an illegal payroll violation. So that was the most surprising thing for me that once I obtained Diggs FBI file through the Freedom of Information act, you go through the file and you can identify for the first time the individual who, if you will inform the Justice Department that Dig was doing Something illegal. And which led to Diggs resignation, his conviction, and subsequent imprisonment. And I was very, very surprised by that finding, Ari. And I will let your readers, let the readers, rather let the readers of the book take a look at it and see who that person was. That was a significant finding. For almost 50 years now, no one really knew how the Justice Department came to know about the payroll kickback scheme that Diggs was involved in. But my book reveals the confidential informant. And so that was the most surprising thing for me. The person who. Who is identified in the book.
- [39:45]
B
Can you comment on the Congress of African Peoples?
- [39:49]
C
The Congress of African People was a meeting held in Atlanta, Georgia, in the early 1970s. It was a meeting to bring together the various ideological factions in black politics, militants, radical militants, conservatives, moderates, to bring them together to. To talk about a way forward for black America. You see, by the early 70s, black Americans were beginning to register to vote in numbers not seen before. Because by the early 70s, you had the passage of the 1965 Voting Rights Act. And so the question becomes, by the 70s, early 70s, how will black folks use this new voting power that we have? And so the Congress of African Peoples was an attempt to bring moderates like Charlie Diggs, moderates like the head of the naacp, moderates like the head of the Urban League, together with black militants and black radicals, about a way forward using this new voting power that black people gain with passage of this 1965 Voting Rights Act. So the Congress of African Peoples met in Atlanta to try to bring these ideological forces together. And it would be the beginning of a series of meetings held by these groups to talk about a strategy for black politics moving forward. So that meeting, the Congress of African Peoples meeting was the. Was the beginning of a series of meetings held in 1970 and 1971 about moving forward, especially around the 1972 presidential election.
- [42:04]
B
How does your research shed new light on how the American Congress works?
- [42:11]
C
Well, it sheds new light in the sense that it focuses on this one. The book focuses on this one individual, Congressman Charles C. Diggs, Jr. And how he operated for some 25 years. So what it does is sort of gives the person a real inside look. It gives the reader a real inside look of how coalitions are built. It gives a good inside look of how personalities impact coalition formation. And it provides the reader with a sense of how you get things done in this Congress, where you have 535 members, 435 members on the House side and 100 in the Senate. And how do you know, build coalitions in the Congress in order to get a bill through a committee, get it marked up, if you will, get it on the floor of the House, pass the floor of the House, send it to the Senate, work out any compromise and then have the President sign it. So it provides a real, real, I believe, insider view of how especially black members of Congress had to operate during this period.
- [43:48]
B
What insights are presented in this book regarding the naacp?
- [43:53]
C
Well, the insight I think you would find here is that the NAACP is considered especially by some of the militant blacks of the time as being a sort of moderate organization, not pushing hard enough. And what you see here is how Diggs had to use his skills as a coalition building and a politician to work with a moderate organization like the NAACP and at the same time be involved with a group like the Congress of African Peoples also. So what Diggs had to do is again, as a savvy, effective Congress member, work with entities like the NAACP which had its own approach to civil rights black politics and at the same time worked with these rising militants like Stropi, Carmichael and Baraka, who was from New Jersey. So the book gives you a sense of, of how the NAACP was seen during this period, 1950s through the 1970s.
- [45:09]
B
How does this book shed new light on the American civil rights movement?
- [45:14]
C
In the case of the civil rights movement, I'll just point to one in particular. There's a wonderful chapter in the book about Charles Diggs relationship and friendship with Martin Luther King Jr. Diggs and Dr. King became good friends as they both mobilized and supported around, around, around civil rights. So one of the things I think it highlights here is just this unique relationship between the Congressman and Martin Luther King Jr. King did not have close linkages with many elected officials, but he did have a close relationship with this one elected official, that being Charlie Diggs. The other thing that I think it shows about the civil rights movement shed lights on the civil rights movement is the extent to which a congressman like Diggs played a critical role in trying to use his position as a Congress member to bring the various factions of the civil rights movement together. Because there were disagreements about how to move forward. And so Diggs found himself as a member of Congress being right in the center of you, if you will, of issues around building these broad based coalitions. And so he used his position and role as a Congress member to try to bring together the fractured components of the civil rights movement. This episode is brought to you by Jack Daniels. Jack Daniels and music are made for each other. They share a rhythm in the craft of of making something timeless while being a part of legendary nights. From backyard jams to sold out arenas, there's a song in every toast. Please drink responsibly. Responsibility.org, jack Daniels and Old Number 7 are registered trademarks. Tennessee Whiskey 40% alcohol by volume. Jack Daniel Distillery, Lynchburg, Tennessee.
- [47:28]
B
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- [47:54]
C
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- [48:29]
B
What does this book offer to specialists with advanced background knowledge? How can experts grow from engaging with your work?
- [48:38]
C
Here I think you're talking about the role in which leadership really matters. You know, oftentimes we dismiss leadership and we don't have a good grasp of the impact and influence that one individual can play. And I think for those who are interested in policy formation and trying to make things happen, you read this book and you can focus on this gentleman, Congressman Diggs, and how he used his skills, his resources to affect change and the kind of approach he made to affect change. The other thing I would say is that you get a sense from this book of how one must be persistent, persistent. One of the words I think that captures Biggs quite well is persistence. He was one who did not give up. He pushed and he pushed the system as far as he could.
- [49:46]
B
Can you say more about Charles Diggs Jr's military service and military training? How did his time with the Tuskegee Airmen change him and impact him?
- [49:59]
C
Diggs spent his military service in the south, largely in Alabama, but he was also in Florida. And Diggs was born and raised in Detroit and having to spend a year over year over a year in Alabama and experiencing firsthand discrimination and segregation despite his uniform, I think really hammered home for Diggs how wrong, how wrong racial discrimination was. And I think this time in the south during his military service helped him to further understand the challenges that blacks in Alabama, Mississippi, Georgia, Louisiana were facing. And for him, I think it really centered for him how wrong on race discrimination was and, and, and that our laws had to be changed, especially down in, in the South. So it had a big impact on him. Also, you know, he having served in the military, he, and there's a chapter in the book about his efforts to address military discrimination. So he had a good sense of what black soldiers were facing during this period also.
- [51:28]
B
Where and when did Charles Diggs Jr die?
- [51:32]
C
Charles Diggs Jr died in August of 1998 in Washington, D.C. of a stroke.
- [51:39]
B
How has Charles Diggs Jr been remembered since he passed away?
- [51:43]
C
I think it's fair to say that those who remember Diggs, and he has been forgotten, but those who remember Charles Diggs Jr unfortunately remember his downfall. At the end of his career. Diggs had to resign from Congress after having been convicted by a jury in Washington, D.C. on 29 counts of mail fraud centered around a payroll kickback scheme that he was involved in. And so it's unfortunate, but that's the way life is. You know, you could spend your entire life doing great things for the world and for people in your community. And if you slip up and do something bad, do something wrong, or go to prison for seven months, oftentimes the bad stuff rise above the good that you accomplish. And I think this was, this is partly what happened to Charlie Diggs. When you ask, how is he remembered? He is often remembered as the congressman who was convicted, censored by the House, and who served seven months in prison.
- [53:06]
B
What are some unanswered questions about the life, leadership and legacy of Charles Diggs Jr. That you would like to see students and specialists engage with in the future? Are there any research topics that come to mind? Are there any angles to thinking about digs that you'd like to see new research engage with?
- [53:32]
C
Yeah, I think that's a really wonderful question. I think one of the things that's interesting is this whole question of leadership style and leadership approach approaches. And there's been extensive research and writings and literature going back to the 1960s about African American, or rather black American leadership styles. And when one focus particularly on the Congress and blacks in Congress, the question becomes how should African Americans, black Americans operate to get things done, especially given that they remain, that we remain a numerical and a racial minority in the country and in the Congress. So what I think scholars and researchers in the future should think about is sort of teasing out how minority groups like black Americans can be effective in institutions like the Congress where you have to build these majoritarian coalitions. So I think there's lots of research that should be done in this area because black leadership is so varied, so different. And we see this. Rather, I write about this in my book comparing, if you will, Diggs with Adam Clayton Powell, the congressman from Harlem, and comparing Diggs with William Dawson, the conservative black congressman from Chicago. There's lots and lots of work to be done on black leadership skills, black leadership approaches.
- [55:22]
B
As we bring our dialogue today to a close, can you kindly tell us about where your time and attention have gone since completing this book?
- [55:32]
C
Since completing the book, I've been really focusing on making certain we publicize the book and get the word out about this tremendous American leader. And often that's up to the authors because publishers these days don't do a whole lot of support in terms of promoting books. And so I've been spending a lot of time working in an effort to raise the profile of the book and make certain that historians, political scientists, and others who are interested in broad readers who are interested in this subject know that the book is out there. At the same time, I'm thinking, as academics, we always think about what's next. And I've been gathering information, I have lots of information already, but I'm getting more information on Congressman Diggs father, who turned out to be a very significant individual in Michigan and Detroit politics for some 40 years. And I gathered lots of information on Charles Diggs senior in writing the book about Congressman Diggs. And so it is likely that one of my future books will be a biography of Charles Diggs Sr. I happen to like biography. I think it's a wonderful genre in terms of books, and I've long enjoyed them. And I've been really very pleased and blessed to be able to spend the past 10 years writing House of Diggs. And I hope to write another. And perhaps it would be a book that covers the life and legacy of Charles Diggs Sr.
- [57:21]
B
Sounds like a fantastic project. I absolutely wish you the very best in that work.
- [57:27]
C
Yeah. Thank you.
- [57:29]
B
As we end today, signing off as Ari Barbalat, your host on the New Books in History channel of the New Books Network podcast today, it has been my blessing to engage in a dialogue with Marion Orr. We have discussed his newly published book, the House of the Rise and Fall of America's Most Consequential Black Congressman, Charles C. Diggs, Jr. Published in Chapel Hill, North Carolina, by University of North Carolina Press, 2025. Marion Orr is the inaugural Frederick Lippit professor of Public Policy and Professor of Political Science and Urban Studies at Brown University. He was previously a member of the Political Science faculty at Duke University. Thank you wholeheartedly.
- [58:18]
C
Thank you.