Mark Kitto, "China Running Dog" (Plum Rain Press, 2025)

Summary

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Podcast Summary

New Books Network: Interview with Mark Kitto, Author of "China Running Dog"

Date: July 26, 2026
Host: Amy Chavez
Guest: Mark Kitto

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Episode Overview

In this engaging episode of the New Books Network's "Books on Asia" podcast, host Amy Chavez interviews Mark Kitto, a British writer, entrepreneur, and long-time China observer, about his political thriller and social critique novel, China Running Dog (Plum Rain Press, 2025). The conversation delves into Shanghai in the early 2000s, the realities and myths of expatriate life, cross-cultural misunderstandings, the complexities of business and corruption in China, and the differences between memoir and fiction in representing a rapidly changing society. The discussion is insightful, humor-laced, and peppered with stories from Kitto's own life in China.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Shanghai in the 2000s: The Setting of "China Running Dog"

[02:07 – 04:39]

• Shanghai as a Boom Town:
  Mark describes early-2000s Shanghai as "a boom town... an incredible coming together of time and place and opportunity and people and money and government encouragement." The city's transformation included rapid construction and the development of hospitality and cultural sectors.

• Foreign Influence & The Treaty Port Legacy:
  Shanghai's cosmopolitan past made it attractive to foreigners and was used by the Chinese government to entice international investment.

  "Shanghai was where the densest concentration of construction cranes ever in the World was in those days." (Mark Kitto, 02:35)

• Expatriate Communities:
  Kitto and his business partner launched an English-language magazine for the "international community," disliking the word "expat."

2. The Title's Meaning: "Running Dog"

[06:31 – 07:30]

• Running Dog in Chinese Parlance:
  Kitto explains the Communist Party’s pejorative use of “running dog” for those seen as lackeys to foreign or capitalist powers. The irony in the novel is that the main running dog is an Englishman, Felix Fawcett Smith.

  "A running dog in Chinese parlance is... rather derogatory, but the Communist Party uses it specifically to refer to someone generally Chinese who is beholden to foreign or capitalist influence... a lackey." (Mark Kitto, 06:36)

3. Foreigners’ Place in China

[07:33 – 11:02]

• Surface Hospitality, Underlying Suspicion:
  Mark discusses how foreigners were publicly welcomed but regarded privately as "a necessary evil," describing a subtle, often unspoken, social distance and skepticism towards outsiders.

  "On the surface, very welcome... But behind that, very carefully, I would say hidden really, there is this disdain, this superiority... I don't want to use the word contempt... but foreigners are a necessary evil." (Mark Kitto, 07:52)

• "You'll Never Be Chinese":
  Kitto’s essay about the inherent barrier for foreigners to fully integrate into Chinese society became widely read and even drew response from state media.

• Personal Vignettes:
  Mark contrasts reactions to foreigners in metropolitan Shanghai versus rural Mogan Shan, where locals, accustomed to foreign presence historically, simply saw foreign residents as unexceptional.

4. Navigating Authenticity in Writing About China

[13:01 – 15:54]

• Memoir vs. Fiction:
  Mark relishes the freedom of fiction to depict what “would have happened,” enabling exploration of taboo or inaccessible aspects of Chinese society.

  "The whole point about novels is that you make stuff up... In the novel, I don't have to hold back. I can write about what definitely would have happened, but it hasn't in this particular case." (Mark Kitto, 13:21)

• Mix of Fact and Invention:
  Major set pieces are inspired by real events, such as violent incidents censored from international media, while characters are composites or wholly fictional.

5. Business Culture & Corruption in China

[19:12 – 25:14]

• Bribery by Another Name:
  Kitto outlines how “administration fees” and “partnerships” with state-linked entities were the cost of doing business, amounting to institutionalized corruption. He shares a memorable anecdote about a direct bribe in rural China—only to have it returned as a “repaid loan” after a military scandal.

  "It's not bribery. It's often called... administration fees... And for me, also administrative fines. I remember when we hit the 1 million renminbi mark in fines, I wanted to have a party to celebrate that we were still going." (Mark Kitto, 19:25 & 20:25)

• Cultural Friction Over Transparency:
  Westerner’s expectations of honesty run counter to Chinese norms, in which “telling the other person what you think they want to hear” is seen as social lubrication, not deceit.

  "In China there's no such thing as lying. What you do is you're telling the other person what you think they want to hear to make their life easier." (Mark Kitto, 23:26)

6. Character Archetypes & Social Commentary in "China Running Dog"

[27:31 – 30:26]

• Felix Fawcett Smith:
  Represents the naive Westerner, easily seduced by China’s opportunities and narratives—an “everyman” for new expats or visiting politicians.

  "Felix simply represents the naive Western person, business politician... who fall for China's propaganda, for the honey trap." (Mark Kitto, 28:34)

• Johnny Trent:
  The seasoned expat, embodying both affection for and knowledge of China. He sees the country’s reality with clear eyes and has learned to thrive amid its contradictions.

  • Kitto hints at subtle references to the Opium Wars and historical cycles of foreign involvement.

7. Representation & Reception

[30:26 – 33:32]

• Who Writes on Shanghai?
  Kitto notes a dearth of foreign-authored novels about modern Shanghai, aside from Japanese and Chinese writers like Wei Wei (“Shanghai Baby”). He mentions he appears (with photo) in the Japanese edition of “Shanghai Baby.”

  "Apparently I'm a character in it. In fact, here's a nice Japan connection for you. The Japanese translation has a picture of me on the cover... It's a picture of me and her with our faces slightly obscured, but everybody knew who it was." (Mark Kitto, 32:45)

8. Writing Plans and Book Recommendations

[34:01 – 37:31]

• Plans for a Sequel and Nonfiction:
  Mark intends to write a sequel or even a trilogy with Felix as the protagonist and is also developing a nonfiction account of an expedition across Xinjiang, using it as a lens on Uyghur history and culture.

• Favorite Books on Asia:

  • The Sailor Who Fell From Grace with the Sea by Yukio Mishima
  • "Modern Histories of China" by Frank Dikötter (notably his trilogy on the Revolution)
  • Six Records of a Floating Life by Shen Fu

  "It's the kind of magical China that we all wish and still does exist... That's the part of the China that I fell in love with as a student." (Mark Kitto, 37:17)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Shanghai’s Magnitude:
  "There's that famous apocryphal, probably true reference that Shanghai was where the densest concentration of construction cranes ever in the World was in those days." (Mark Kitto, 02:35)

• On Foreignness in China:
  "You'll never be Chinese... No matter how much you wanted to be involved and invested in China, you will never actually be Chinese." (Mark Kitto, 08:31)

• On Business 'Administration Fees':
  "Bribery, 'administration fees,' bribes dressed up as loans—this is just the way things work, everyone plays along, and when it's too direct, it's refreshing!" (Mark Kitto, 21:12)

• On Cross-cultural Misreadings:
  "In China there's no such thing as lying... it's just their way of trying to make things smooth..." (Mark Kitto, 23:26)

• On Fiction vs. Memoir:
  "So I've written two China memoirs and now I've written a novel. This is the real story, okay?" (Mark Kitto, 13:21)

• On Favorite Chinese Literature:
  "Six Records of a Floating Life... it's beautiful. His writing is beautiful, his life is beautiful. It's the kind of magical China that we all wish and still does exist." (Mark Kitto, 37:17)

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Timestamps for Significant Segments

• [02:07] – Shanghai’s transformation and Kitto’s arrival
• [06:31] – The meaning of "China Running Dog"
• [07:52] – How foreigners were treated in China
• [13:01] – On authenticity in writing about China
• [19:12] – "Bribery" and business culture stories
• [27:31] – Character symbolism in "China Running Dog"
• [34:01] – Next books: Sequel/trilogy and Uyghur nonfiction
• [35:44] – Kitto’s favorite books on Asia

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Tone & Atmosphere

The tone is relaxed and friendly, marked by self-deprecating humor from both host and guest, with Kitto openly sharing candid opinions and personal anecdotes. The interview is informative without being overly academic, balancing cultural insight, storytelling, and book-focused discussion.

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For anyone interested in the realities (and fictions) of contemporary China, expatriate life, or cross-cultural business, this episode offers rich behind-the-scenes perspectives and thoughtful commentary.

Transcript

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[Mark Kitto]

welcome to the New Books Network.

[Amy Chavez]

Welcome to the Books on Asia podcast. I'm your host, Amy Chavez, and today Mark Kitto joins us from London. He's a writer, entrepreneur and longtime observer of modern China. Mark is author of China Running Dog, a novel that blends political thriller with social critique, exploring the tensions, contradictions and human dramas that play out in one of the world's most dynamic nations. So welcome Mark.

[Mark Kitto]

Thanks very much, Amy. Nice to be here.

[Amy Chavez]

So your novel takes place in the heydays of the 2000s in Shanghai. Can you fill our listeners in on what was happening in Shanghai at that time and what drew you to the city?

[Mark Kitto]

What was happening in Shanghai in the early 2000s? Basically everything. It was a boom town. An incredible coming together of time and place and opportunity and people and money and government encouragement. The city was physically being rebuilt from the ground up with an underground going in while overpasses were being built over the sort of the suburbs, ring roads, airports, train stations, everything was being rebuilt. There's that famous apocryphal, probably true reference that Shanghai was where the densest concentration of construction cranes ever in the World was in those days. The atmosphere was just so high energy that everybody was. Was working like crazy. Thanks to all the new companies coming in, especially in the FNB and that sort of. In the hospitality industry and the cultural industry business, lots of. And every night there was a launch party at Warwick. Sorry, not a launch party. There were probably about three and restaurants popping up and people trying out new. Not just new restaurants but new foods. You know, whole new cuisines were being introduced. At one point it was Brazilian, was sort of sweeping into town. The next it was sushi places. And so it was really, really high energy, exciting and a great opportunity. And that is why I went there. Another very important reason why I went there was that I and my original business partner had set up a foreign. An English language magazine in Guangzhou down south near Hong Kong. We had made it work. It was, I will confess, a sort of an expat magazine. It was very much for the expat community. I didn't really like the word expat myself. I prefer international community. Anyway, we thought we knew what we were doing with an English language magazine in China and we wanted somewhere where we would have a bigger market. And Shanghai was the obvious place to go with that. And it had also this history that's a very important part of Shanghai and reason why it became such a boomtown. It had that foreign history from pre1949 which made it so attractive to foreigners and such an obvious, if I may use the word honey trap for the Chinese government to use to attract those foreigners to come back to China. So we had a.

[Amy Chavez]

So you're referring to like the treaty port?

[Mark Kitto]

Exactly, yes. Which was established after one of the Opium wars in the mid 19th century along with Hong Kong and Xiamen.

[Amy Chavez]

It was British controlled, right?

[Mark Kitto]

No, it wasn't run by the British so much as by the international community. And they had their various concessions. The French concession was a very important one. There was the international. The American and the British were sort of together. The Russians were up north of Suzhou Creek and the Japanese of course. So although we were. We played a leading role because we were sort of fairly high profile world power at the time. It was not British run, that was Hong Kong, everything else. All the other treaty ports in China, including such as Qingdao. Actually Qingdao was German. They were all run by a sort of collection of foreign communities.

[Amy Chavez]

Is this part of the 100 Years of Shame that China sometimes talks about is the foreign influence sometimes talks about.

[Mark Kitto]

They always talk about it. Certainly if they're Doing what the party propaganda bureau is wanting them to do. Absolutely, yes. It's the hundred years of shame when, after the Opium wars, which were bad enough to start with, where we blew open the sort of market in China to sell British and American opium to the Chinese, we forced them to hand over control of various, as they're called, treaty ports under what the Chinese call the unequal treaties. And we governed those places ourselves. We were. We gave ourselves the right, rather, to build railways into the Chinese hinterland. We set up trading ports inside China, up the rivers. And also the missionaries, of course. We sent missionaries all over China.

[Amy Chavez]

Okay. Could you explain the title of your book? China Running Dog?

[Mark Kitto]

Of course. It is deliberately laden with meaning. A running dog in Chinese parlance is. It's always been rather derogatory, but the Communist Party uses it specifically to refer to someone generally Chinese who is beholden to foreign or capitalist influence or leaders, bosses, someone who does the dirty work for a capitalist or a foreigner, especially in China. A lackey.

[Amy Chavez]

I see. Now it's making. I'm making connections to your novel now.

[Mark Kitto]

Ah, yes. It is slightly ironic in that the. One of the main character and the lead character in the novel is English, not Chinese. That's. But he's a China running dog.

[Amy Chavez]

So that's Felix Fawcett Smith, right?

[Mark Kitto]

Correct.

[Amy Chavez]

He was such a colorful character. I just laughed so often when I was reading about him and the things that he did because it reminded me of Japan, for example. I would like to know, how were foreigners treated at that time in China, especially in Shanghai?

[Mark Kitto]

That's a really good and complicated question to answer. Because they were treated. We were treated as. And on the surface, very welcome. Chinese society is very polite, especially and including to foreigners. But behind that, very carefully, I would say hidden really, there is this disdain, this superiority, this Chinese. I don't want to use the word contempt. That's. That's not. That's too strong. But foreigners are a necessary evil.

[Amy Chavez]

I think there's that running current in Japan as well, right?

[Mark Kitto]

Yes. I think it's not just limited to Japan and China. I think most countries have some sort of complicated relationship with foreigners. I look at Britain right now with all the immigrants. I mean, we are an immigrant country certainly nowadays. I better be careful. Nigel Farage might be listening. And I, for example, to blow my own trumpet a little bit. I used to be a columnist for a magazine called Prospect in London. I wrote a feature article for them called you'll never be Chinese. And it was the most read article online that was in Print as well. I want to stress the Chinese, someone in China translated into Chinese and it got, it went all over China. The People's Daily wrote an editorial in response to it and what I was basically saying, well, I said it in the title. No matter how much you wanted to be involved and invested in China, you will never actually be Chinese. I mean, people don't become Chinese citizens. Foreigners don't, just simply don't. Unlike Australia or America or wherever. And I don't know, I think that you're sort of educated Chinese who've been abroad especially, or on the Eastern seaboard or in the major cities. They are much more accepting of foreigners, I'm afraid in the hinterland to the west, they tend to believe all the propaganda they're given. There's one exception though, which I love to talk about, if I may. Very quickly, after I lost my magazine business, I went to live on a mountain called Mogan Shan near Hangzhou, about four hours, then directly due west of Shanghai, in this village built by missionaries on the top of a hill as a heat retreat. And the Chinese locals, the locals on the mountain had actually come from the next door province of Anhui. So they weren't local local. And they grew up surrounded by foreigners in effectively a foreign community. And when I moved to live in the village, it was really refreshing because they just looked at me. Unlike in the rest of China where you get, I'm afraid it's a cliche, but you get stared at and they do. The people around you will shout, someone will shout la wai, which means old foreigner if you're being respectful, but actually means weirdo. And in the village they just went, oh, look, there's a foreigner come back, just like the old days. How nice. And ignored me. Nothing special at all. It was great.

[Amy Chavez]

Yeah. I think anywhere in Asia you do get a lot of people looking at you and staring at you and such. You do get used to it, but. And people are naturally curious, aren't they? And like you said, you know, Japan's the same way to. Very few foreigners become Japanese citizens. Right. So. And you're kind of a part of this moving community that comes and goes. So people don't expect you to stay very long really in the scheme of things, they expect you'll go back to your country. But yeah, it's, it's certainly a unique existence. And I know that you have all this background, right, about China because you've lived there, like you said, you had a business there, you speak Chinese even you've written a couple other books about China. And I think that this firsthand knowledge must have colored the way your novel developed and the whole story. And I was wondering, how have these experiences enabled you to delve more deeply into China's inner workings? And the reason I ask this is because I think a lot of people don't know a lot about China except what's on the news, right? And then people read novels and of course, Lisa, see, had, you know, some novels about China, as did Amitan, and they're both, you know, have a Chinese heritage. And I don't know about what the Chinese people think of these novels, but in Japan, whenever someone who doesn't really live in Japan writes a novel, let's take, you know, Memoirs of a Geisha, for example, the international community just kind of laughs under their breath because they know that they have taken so many liberties because it's a novel. Right. That a lot of it isn't actually true. And so you have written a novel too, and you, of course, have taken some liberties. But I would think that just the unique experience of having lived there and had so much experience in China, that this would have made a different type of novel.

[Mark Kitto]

I like that question. Yes, it is. It has been reviewed. One of the reviewers on Amazon.co.uk said it was almost too realistic. I'm not sure quite whether that's a compliment or a criticism.

[Amy Chavez]

I think it is compliment.

[Mark Kitto]

I hope so, with your reference to Memoirs of a Geisha, which I'm afraid I haven't read. Well, now, the whole point about novels is that you make stuff up and it's incredibly successful with its Western readership. And I expect you'll find that there are Japanese and Chinese writings, fiction about the west, that are equally amusing, let's say, to the audience they're writing about. You mentioned my memoirs. What I like to say, which is a bit silly, is that. So I've written two China memoirs and now I've written a novel. This is the real story, okay? I like it because I can, in the novel, I don't have to hold back. I'm not constrained by what actually happened. I can write about what definitely would have happened, but it hasn't in this particular case. But some of the major set pieces that I describe, the. The scenes of action, I mean, almost, yes, did happen. I mean, there's a. There's a climactic scene which involves violence and on a large scale. I mean, I. And I refer to it being filmed and put on the international CNN news services and then being blocked by the Chinese I saw, I watched on cnn, such an incident, such a literal pitched battle taking place and getting cut. So it's very. Yes, it's perhaps it's not cinema varite, it's. It's fiction verite. But at the same time, the characters are totally fictional. I knew people liked them. It gave me also a chance to. To get behind and into the. The Chinese side and the. My Chinese characters and the world that they inhabit, which, as a foreigner, even though I worked especially in my media business, constantly with people like that, either working with them or fighting them, I'm afraid I never knew. I knew, always knew what was behind the scenes, but no one ever tells you you're never allowed into it. And so the novel gave me a chance to explore that world that I know exists rather too well, but I'd never actually been inside. And I had a lot of fun because there I could create good and bad characters. As I say, I was working with them and fighting them. And I hope the readers will appreciate that in that particular world, there's a major twist that comes at the end, and it's a good one.

[Amy Chavez]

Oh, I really understand so well about that. You'll never be told actually what's going on. And it's the. The difference, the outside face that, you know, people want to present versus what's actually going on. And I think that Felix Fawcett Smith, he just swallowed all that hook, line and sinker and didn't even think of that, right?

[Mark Kitto]

Absolutely. And I did. When I first arrived in China, I. We all do. I also actually wore a suit just like Felix Fawcett Smith. I'll admit that was inspired by my own wardrobe.

[Amy Chavez]

Mm.

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[Mark Kitto]

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[Amy Chavez]

Yeah, I think it. Yeah, it's. It's one of those things that there are all these facets to their society that we don't know about and we don't consider, and so we just treat it as if it's our own. And. And that's, of course, this big mine you've stepped into that can explode at any moment. And of course it does, doesn't it? Even in the novel I wanted to also ask you about. I mean, this isn't. Well, I guess it is related to your novel, because your novel. You talk about real estate, but we often hear about bribes that foreign companies have to pay to do business in China. And the Japanese talk about this all the time. And now, don't get me wrong, there's bribery and Japan as well. But people are so used to this type of bribery that's not even considered bribery. But if you're a Westerner, you're like, no, you're paying that doctor, for example, some money ahead of time to make sure you have a good operation that's a bribe. And all of this stuff is now getting rooted out, and it's kind of hard to find. But when I came to Japan 30 years ago, it was still rife. You could buy your way into universities. You could. All these things, they're like, no, it's just the system. So anyway, I was wondering about in China, does the general population consider this form of business normal? Is. Is just the way things, you know, happen. Right. And are there any gang, mafia or triad forces that come into play in business in China?

[Mark Kitto]

Short answer? Yes, slightly longer answer. It's not bribery, it's not corruption. It's often called, for example, administration fees.

[Amy Chavez]

Oh.

[Mark Kitto]

It is also the case that the government at all levels controls all business, is involved in business as well, and therefore they control the power to be the license to do business. And everybody needs a license in China. And once you eventually find the person who can issue the relevant license to what you want to do, they will. You will speak to them and they will say, as happened in my case with the media business, they will say, well, yes, we have the power to basically stop you doing business. However, we do not engage directly with it. But we, under our control, we have a commercial entity who might be able to help you if you were to go into partnership with them. Partnership basically involves you paying an administration fee for them to, on behalf of their government sponsors, break the rules or get around the rules.

[Amy Chavez]

Interesting.

[Mark Kitto]

And for me, also administrative fines. Sorry. Talking about my own media business. I remember when we hit the 1 million renminbi mark in fines, I wanted to have a party to celebrate that we were still going. My financial controller said that probably wouldn't please the staff very much if they knew how much money we'd had to spend. Then there's, I suppose you could possibly call it corruption when you're talking about the favors, but then they're not always necessarily financial or directly relating to money. Like, could you help me get a visa for my child? Or my child, could you introduce me to a good university in Britain? A lot of that goes on research trips. Oh, hang on, hang on. Do you mind if I tell you a little story?

[Amy Chavez]

Oh, please do.

[Mark Kitto]

I once did pay a direct bribe. It could not be disguised as anything else. It was when I was renting the house that my family and I went to up on the Mountain Morgan that I mentioned and the landlord, who are the army, said, marker, I need to entertain a few people to dinner in order to get this approval through for you to rent this villa. And he said, it's going to cost this much. So I handed it over, as simple as that. We're in the country. It was 5,000 RMB, about US$500 in those days. I played along. I was actually quite chuffed because it was so direct, all that. There was no dressing it up, there was no of this sort of awful stuff that I'd gone through in Shanghai where you just didn't know who you were dealing with and you were paying for what. And it was blissfully upfront. I was actually delighted. Great. A straightforward bribe. Here you go, Mr. Mr. Mark or Major Mark. Anyway, it all worked. We got the villa. A few months later there was a spying scandal, some. Something to do with Taiwan and Chinese military intelligence. And the Chinese military, the Jeff Hunter and the PLA was told to not accept any gifts from any foreign entities or people. So Major Ma invited me back to his office, he sat me down and he invited in his number two and in front of his number two, his assistant deputy, whatever, he said, Mr. Marker, thank you so much for that loan you lent me in order to pay for my mother's medical care.

[Amy Chavez]

Oh, wow.

[Mark Kitto]

My mother is now better and I have Found the money and I'm now going to repay you. And he repaid me hundred note by hundred note. He counted them out, 50 of them, and gave me the bloody bribe back. I was furious. My one bribe and they've given it back. How dare you?

[Amy Chavez]

Do you think that maybe they treat foreigners a little different and don't, you know, don't want to do anything overt like that, because they know that we might not be used to it or we might call them.

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[Mark Kitto]

I mean, I get what's very frustrating for Chinese business people dealing with, with foreigners is our insistence on being upfront, straight and honest. Well, most of us, or that's the principle at least, isn't it? Because in China there's no such thing as lying. What you do is you're telling the other, it's true, you're telling the other person what you think they want to hear to make it their life easier or to make their business easier or to make them go away so that you can get on with dealing things in your own way and they shouldn't be worried. And yet we immediately will say, this guy's lying to my face. This is absolute. In fact, I remember an American businessman once shouting, you know, these guys actually believe their own. It's not. It's just their way of trying to make things smooth, you know, go through.

[Amy Chavez]

That's so true. It's just their way of doing things, isn't it? Yeah, yeah.

[Mark Kitto]

And it does. Yes, it's frustrating, but once you accept it and once you. You sort of join in the game and maintain your integrity to some degree to satisfy yourself, then, yeah, it's fine. Yeah, just get along with it. Just like I'm afraid it has to be admitted, and it's not uncommon knowledge that corruption and bribery does help things move along in certain developing industries countries. Everybody was guilty of it. The entire world, as it's developed, has engaged in bribery at some point. And then we all get on our moral high horse. It's not like the pollution. We were allowed in the Industrial Revolution to pollute Europe, but China can't pollute China.

[Amy Chavez]

Absolutely. That's right. One thing you did touch on, getting back to your novel, and you were talking about how you had Felix Fawcett Smith wearing a suit and stuff, because you said, that's what I did when I came to China, I wore a suit. And it reminded of you of yourself. And I think when all of us, you know, when we move to another country, especially if we're there a long time now, you were there from, what, 2000 to 213, is that correct?

[Mark Kitto]

No, a bit longer. I lived there from 96 to 2013. Yeah. I was there as a student also in the 80s.

[Amy Chavez]

Okay. And we go through this process of maturation. Right. And the same thing would have happened in our home countries, but we can't really draw that line as to what has made us mature. Is it the culture or is it just the fact that we're getting older? And so when you look back and when you were writing this novel, how did you, like, connect with your younger self, having first come to China? And what kind of things did you realize about yourself that, you know, you probably didn't realize at that time?

[Mark Kitto]

Very well put. Well, to start with, Felix Fawcett Smith and his suit, I looked back and I thought, gosh, what a twit I was. And I certainly was. But as you've touched upon, I was young and. And stupid, like most young people are, and thought I knew what I was doing or thought I looked cool. It was enjoyable and also, what shall I say, sobering, perhaps, or, I don't know, not a good process to look back and see myself as that. Yes. There's a lot in the early days of the early experiences of Felix Fawcett Smith. There is a fair bit of me. And as well as being young and stupid, I had a lot of fun and. And. And I was enthusiastic and really keen to get involved in China. And then. Yes. What is it? Is it because we age? Definitely. Is it because we get to know the country better? Absolutely. And the world, and we get better at what we're doing. And we also can see behind. We can see, hopefully we understand what's going on behind the scenes that we touched on earlier. Sometimes people don't.

[Amy Chavez]

You're right. This is a good point. Yeah. So getting back to your characters. So we have Felix Fawcett Smith, right. Who's the, you know, the new guy. He comes in and in typical fashion in these Asian countries, he comes in. He's so naive. He falls for everything and he gets the girl. Right. And this is like, kind of like a. It's a stereotype, but it's so true, is that all the Asian girls are like, oh, Felix. And, you know, and so he become very popular and he's drinking it all in. And then the other main character in the novel is Johnny Trent, and Johnny's the. The good guy who does everything, you know, supposedly. Right. Although he's got, you know, a certain background, which is interesting, which we find out later. So I'm thinking, okay, here are these two main characters. There was some girls involved as well, of course. Gotta have the romance and, you know, the. And that. But who do they represent in society at large, especially as it relates to China?

[Mark Kitto]

Gosh, that's a big one. Who do they represent? I think Felix simply represents the naive Western person, business politician, especially the politicians recently actually, who fall for the China, for China's propaganda, for the honey trap, which is absolutely what the Chinese Communist Party is trying to do. It's leading us all on. And Johnny Trent represents the slightly wise, the me today, let's say compared to me, the naive Felix at the beginning. But sorry, it's not about me, it's about. He is the wiser. He is the wise wised up Westerner or person who does realize what's going on. But he's also very much vested in China, loves China, the good side of China, and he's the one who comes across that. So he's the good guy, as I think you said, and he is a good guy. And gosh, I don't know quite how to round this off, but he represents good and the Western and the outside world from China that understands it as much as it's possible to. And he's the outsider that understands China as much as it's possible to and likes it and wants it to succeed for all its faults. And he, as you mentioned, also he has his own faults. I think that's quite useful. You notice there's a relevance there to the. There's a reflection of the opium and all that sort of stuff from the opium wars. All very subtle. I hope people notice.

[Amy Chavez]

Yeah, yeah, no, it was good. And I think it addresses also, like questions of why some people do go abroad. Sometimes they're trying to escape a past. Sometimes they want to reinvent themselves. Sometimes they're just curious and they say, oh, I'll do a year in China, a year in Japan or whatever. Then they just stay because they realize that they thrive on this, you know, different culture that is so at odds with their own. So I think that comes out quite clearly in the reading of the novel. I heard that this is one of the few novels written by a foreigner about Shanghai. Is that true?

[Mark Kitto]

I think so, yes.

[Dr. Lisa]

Wow.

[Mark Kitto]

There's a famous Japanese one called Shanghai written in the 30s, I think. I'm sorry to say I haven't read it. It is translated into English. It's a sort of epic family business saga. If I remember rightly. It's a while since I Looked it up and that was major in the time. Really. Really. Quite a big hit then. As for fiction written by a foreigner. No, there is very, very little indeed. There are novels written by. Well, recently. Well, recently. 20 years ago, approximately. Some Chinese writers. Like Shanghai Baby is obviously about Shanghai.

[Amy Chavez]

Right.

[Mark Kitto]

Apparently I'm a. Apparently I'm a character in it.

[Amy Chavez]

Really.

[Mark Kitto]

Yeah. So I've got. I should have really got my IM back on the author in. In China Running Dog. I overlooked that.

[Amy Chavez]

So the novel Shanghai was written by the Japanese author, as you said, Richie Yokomitsu. And so I would like. You know, I haven't read that. I would. I'll have to dig that up and, you know, see what he had to say.

[Mark Kitto]

Well found. Yeah. I think it's a slightly slower moving than China Running Dog. I like to think I got a bit of pace to mine and I think that's important because, well, maybe it was different in the days when Shanghai, the Japanese novel, was written. But as I was saying at the very beginning, Shanghai was moving at such an incredible pace that. That's something else that I hope I've reflected in my novel.

[Amy Chavez]

So Shanghai Baby was written by the Chinese author Wei Wei and originally published in China in 1999. So you're in there, huh?

[Mark Kitto]

I'm not only in there. In fact, here's a nice Japan connection for you. The Japanese translation has a picture of me on the COVID Oh, my gosh. Yeah. You didn't ask my permission.

[Amy Chavez]

Wow.

[Mark Kitto]

It's a picture of me and her with our faces slightly obscured, but everybody knew who it was.

[Amy Chavez]

And how did you get to know her?

[Mark Kitto]

She was just part of the scene. I was publishing a magazine that was reviewing, you know, arts and culture, and she was. She. And there's another female writer called Mien Mian, who. Oh, God. What did she write? Candy was her breakthrough novel, as I put in one of my memoirs. Those two weren't so much writing their novels as living them.

[Amy Chavez]

I like the distinction. Yeah, well, as long as it comes over as, you know, not too. I mean, when. Sometimes when fiction is too true, that isn't good either. So hopefully it's a good mix of.

[Mark Kitto]

Yes, yes.

[Amy Chavez]

Reality. But. Yeah, interesting as well. Right. Okay. So we're really at the end of the show, which is too bad. I'd love to talk to you more and maybe I can. I get to. Are you working on anything else now? Another book?

[Mark Kitto]

Funny you should say that because, yes, I very much do want to write more. First of all, I would like to write a sequel, possibly Even a trilogy. In fact, I've always dreamt of doing a trilogy with Felix. I think it wouldn't be giving anything away to say it doesn't end entirely happily for him. And there's definitely potential for more to happen to Felix. And I got an idea. Well, I've got a very clear idea of what does. And I've got this arc where he will, yes, he might sink even lower, but eventually he will redeem himself. And I'm really excited by that. And I. And I do want to write it. And then there's other things that I would like to write. I'm more sort of historical. I've got actually in the works a book about Xinjiang and the Uyghurs. I was. I've been up to Xinjiang quite a lot and I was involved in an expedition there in 1993 that walked through the Taklamakan Desert and.

[Amy Chavez]

Wow, that's fantastic.

[Mark Kitto]

It was a life forming experience. It was incredible. And I would like to revisit, to tell the story of that expedition, using that as a way in to talk about the Uyghurs and Xinjiang history, which is incredibly complicated and fascinating and nobody really knows about. And nobody has written in an entertaining, popular way about Xinjiang that I know of.

[Amy Chavez]

And that would be nonfiction.

[Mark Kitto]

That would be non fiction. Yes.

[Amy Chavez]

Great.

[Mark Kitto]

Yeah.

[Amy Chavez]

And can you tell me what are three of your favorite books on Asia, like, things that you read and you just. Yeah. Really resonated with you. Or that you learned from or. It could be anything. Gosh, you look so nervous.

[Mark Kitto]

I am nervous because there are so many books.

[Amy Chavez]

I know it's an unfair question.

[Mark Kitto]

I'm a writer and I'm gonna. I've read so many books about Asia, but especially China.

[Amy Chavez]

Sure.

[Mark Kitto]

I'm a massive fan though, also of Mishima, Yukio Mishima. I just reread his one, the Sailor who Fell From Grace with the Sea.

[Amy Chavez]

Oh, that's a great one, isn't it? Yeah. That is so powerful.

[Lululemon Brand Voice]

Incredible.

[Amy Chavez]

I was on the edge the whole time. Yeah.

[Mark Kitto]

Yeah. Beautifully written. So could that be one? I've got other Japanese ones but we can't talk about. And there's one in particular which I so much. But I'm not going to go there. I'm going to stay. I'm going to move on from Japan. Let's do a China one from China. One of my. And there are so many. Gosh. I mean, there are lots of recent histories. I'm Frank Dickater. His Modern Histories of China, his trilogy about the revolution and how it progressed betrayal by the revolution, all that stuff. It's fantastic. He really cuts to the, to the core of things. But I think if it was a China book, and I'm going to go soft here, I would go for a book called Six Records of a Floating Life by a literary scholar minor Qing Dynasty official called Shen Fu. And it is just a beautiful, bucolic, very gentle description of his life as a minor scholar official in provincial China. And it's beautiful. His writing is beautiful, his life is beautiful. It's the kind of magical China that we all wish and still does exist. Those people do exist, I must say. They're really hard to find. That's the part of the China that I fell in love with as a student.

[Amy Chavez]

Thanks so much for joining us, Mark. And I hope to read another novel of yours soon, or nonfiction. And I want to give a big shout out to Pomerain Press for their support for the podcast as well.

[Mark Kitto]

Can I shout out to Plum Rain Press? Thanks for publishing China Running Dog?

[Amy Chavez]

All right, thanks, Mark.

[Mark Kitto]

Amy, I just want to say thank you so much. It's been great chatting to you. You've asked some brilliant questions. I hope I've given them some the answers they deserve.

[Dr. Lisa]

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