← New Books Network
New Books Network
Melodie H. Eichbauer, "Law in a Culture of Theology: The Use of Canon Law by Parisian Theologians, Ca. 1120-Ca. 1220" (Routledge, 2025)
00:48:57
Loading summary
Transcript51 lines
- [00:00]
United Airlines Narrator
This is a real good story about.
- [00:02]
United Airlines Customer
Bronx and his dad, Ryan, Real United Airlines customers.
- [00:06]
Podcast Host
We were returning home and one of the flight attendants asked Bronx if he wanted to see the flight deck and meet Kath and Andrew.
- [00:11]
Dr. Melody Eichbauer
I got to sit in the driver's seat.
- [00:13]
Podcast Host
I grew up in an aviation family and seeing Bronx kind of reminded me of myself when I was that age.
- [00:18]
United Airlines Narrator
That's Andrew, a real United pilot.
- [00:21]
Podcast Host
These small interactions can shape a kid's future.
- [00:23]
Dr. Melody Eichbauer
It felt like I was the captain.
- [00:25]
Podcast Host
Allowing my son to see the flight deck will stick with us forever. That's how good leads the way this.
- [00:31]
United Airlines Narrator
Holiday Discover meaningful gifts for everyone on your list at K. Not sure where to start? Our jewelry experts are here to help you find or create the perfect gift in store or online. Book your appointment today and unwrap love this season only at Kay.
- [00:47]
Garnier Advertiser
Long day, late night. Love putting on your makeup, but hate taking it off. There's really no better feeling than coming home, getting comfy and removing your makeup. With Garnier Waterproof Micellar Water, it's it easily removes even stubborn waterproof mascara. None of that harsh rubbing needed and you don't even have to rinse afterwards. It leaves skin cleansed, refreshed, and never dry. Head to Amazon to shop Garnier Waterproof Micellar Water now.
- [01:14]
Podcast Host
Welcome to the New Books Network.
- [01:18]
Xu Wan
Hi everyone. Welcome back to New Books Network. This is Xu Wan. Today I feel very happy to invite Dr. Eschbauer to join us to introduce her fantastic new book, Law in your Culture of Theology. The first thing I want to do today is to invite Dr. Eschbauer to introduce herself to us.
- [01:38]
Dr. Melody Eichbauer
Hi everyone. My name is Melody Eichbauer and I am a professor of Medieval Legal and Ecclesiastical History at Florida Gulf Coast University in Fort Myers. My research interests focus on legal pluralism and the evolution of legal principles. I am particularly interested in the dissemination of legal knowledge, the interpretation of law, and the ways in which social, political and intellectual developments and trends shaped both the medieval period and how it can apply to current issues today.
- [02:14]
Xu Wan
Thanks so much for your self introduction. So for the next question, I'm wondering why you take interest in the interesting topic. I mean, the intersectional history of law and the theology.
- [02:28]
Dr. Melody Eichbauer
Yeah. This work actually stemmed from an American Council of Learned Societies Collaborative research grant. And that project, it was entitled Codes, Community and the Cultural Formation of law from 1600 to 1300 considered the geographical context of law within different spaces. And we really focus My collaborator and I, Abigail Fiery, who's a professor of Early Medieval History at the University of Kentucky really looked at, wanted to take a regional approach. We were very much interested in building bridges across the historiographic divide between. In legal history between early Middle Ages and the later Middle Ages, traditionally has been to chronological intersections that really haven't spoken to one another. But we also wanted to situate medieval legal history in communities of practice. And for this, as the geographic approach was really important. Legal scholars typically think of law across Europe. It's known as a pan European legal system. Kind of the same thoughts wherever you are. But what we got thinking about was, was law used differently in different regions. How do we conceptualize that? And what we ended up thinking about was because medieval law shaped and interpreted, shaped and interpreted, interpreted references to regional and geographic traditions, we really had to dive into, well, what is the theory behind law and the practice of law? So our work brought us into contact with all sorts of individuals known for their legal knowledge. They could be teachers, theologians, bishops, and particularly in the early Middle Ages, prior to the turn of the 12th century and the rise of the famous law school Bologna, we found that none of. None of these individuals were formally trained in law. However, they knew, they knew law. They used it and they shaped it. They compiled collections, they used law and letters. They discussed law, councils and senate. And all of this was traveling along what was known as the Via Francagina. It was actually the pilgrimage route from Canterbury to Rome, and people and texts moved all up and down. This where my work bounced off of is that as we thought about Paris, in particular, the schools of Notre Dame, St. Jean, Viet, St. Victor, and the regions around it like Arat, Laon, Chartres, Liege Reigns, Chalon, Samar, and Therawon, we saw a real vibrancy of knowledge. But everything I kept seeing was in relationship to. To theology, particularly as I started getting into the 12th and 13th century. And I was like, yes, yes, the schools of Paris theology, that's delightful, but there's so much law happening there. But the disciplines were treated in silos. You had the scholars who focused on theology, you had scholars who focused on law, and the scholars who focused on the growth of the university as an institution spent lots of time talking about theology. And law just happened to be randomly mentioned. And so that's really why I wanted to look at particular theologians and how they were thinking about law, because so many of these folks ended up as papal judge delegates, or they ended up in ecclesiastical administration, which were day jobs that required them to know something about the law.
- [06:16]
Xu Wan
Okay, thanks so much for your answer. For next question. Now listen to the book I would like to invite you to discuss how the proliferation in the production of Zor in northern France made it an area with a robust culture of law in the late 11th and early 12th centuries.
- [06:38]
Dr. Melody Eichbauer
Yeah, so here with Via Forensic Gena again, that pilgrimage route from Canterbury, Rome was cordible. All up and down this pilgrimage path. You had people and collections being swapped, being traded and created. And so it became really interesting as we, as I started diving into this, I've started seeing places like at Ren's, at Ara, you have Therawan all creating legal collections. And at first it was the real thought that, oh, these are just simply copies of bigger collections. But when we started getting it, when I started really getting into this and bouncing off of what other scholars had been working on, I started to see this was not the case at all. You see, collections like the Collectio Britannica, which was compiled in about 1090, really started showing use of Roman law. The compiler had clearly rummaged through papal archives when they were a particular common law at a different level than other collections have. And then you have collections such as the collection of 74 titles. And Chris Groper has done a lot of work on this, where this collection was compiled. Scholars used to think of this as a collection that was really augmenting the power of the Pope, particularly during the Gregorian reform. However, what Christoph found was that after you get past papal authority, a lot of the collection is focused on monastic rights. And so what the collection was doing was compiling law to offense of the authority of the Pope, who could then support the rights of monasteries. So now I'm starting to see that collections had different purposes, even if they were drawing on each other because of the Via Franco. But then you have to consider people here as well, not just the works. And this is where Evo Chartres, he was the Bishop of Chartres. He was one of the most influential lawyers in the early Middle Ages. He had served as the abbot of San Quentin in Beauvais for about 20 years, and then he became Bishop Churchill in 1090. Dartford was the center of the Archdiocese of Reims and it was the center of law and legal collections. But more interestingly is when Evo taught at San Quentin, he taught a number of future bishops, such as John of Warrington, who's future bishop of Erragon. Lambert would become the bishop of Arah Arnof, the bishop of Christ Church in Canterbury, and eventually in Rochester. And then there were some others, such as that they were in contact with Archbishop Manassas II of Reims. Manassas The Bishop of Ambrae. These individuals, John, another excellent scholar, has dubbed the band brothers. These bishops were all in contact with each other, all sharing legal knowledge, whether it's works they were at, councils, are doing legal cases together. You're. And so it's really showing this circle of bishops steeped in legal knowledge, even though there aren't law schools formally at. And they're all using law in the. To deal with administrative challenges. So taking this all together, I started to think about who the compiler of the text was and what was their day job as an administrator. And from there, I started to think about, well, are all these legal collections the same? And what I started finding is, they weren't. So, for example, Walter Fairwon compiled a collection known as the collection of 10 parts. Now, Walter was serving as archdeacon of Therawan at the time. He compiled this collection roughly between 1125 and 1130. And at first glance, this is not an exciting collection. You're just like, this is boring. It is a derivative of a bigger collection known as the Panormia. You know, parts one through three and five through nine of the ten parts, one literally corresponded to books one through three and four through eight of the Panormia. It retained many of the same text and usually in the same order. There was no reason at face value to think there was anything of interest in here, but yet when you start adding through it, you start seeing subtle changes. For instance, part 4 of the collection of 10 parts focuses on the Augustinian order and the canons regular. The Panormia deals with Benedictine monastery. Why does this matter? Because larger collections typically focused on the traditional Benedictine order. But because Walter was working in Sarawan and working for the Bishop John, who was a reformer of monastic houses, they were actively engaged in thinking about monasticism from the perspective of the canons regular and the Augustinian order. And they actually converted a number of Benedictine houses to houses of Augustinian canons, which means his collection isn't going to deal with Benedictine monasticism. It's going to have to deal with their current climate and their current locale, which was canons regular. You see something very similar with the addition of. Of part 10, which is basically a penitential. It deals with confession, tenants, and reconciliation, something an archdeacon was very much having to be engaged in. And so you kind of have a section dealing with it. You also see a much more liberal incorporation of Roman law than what you see in the Panormia. And you see this in part six, dealing with judicial organization and judicial procedure. You also see it in part seven on marriage Again, as an archdeacon, he's having to be involved in court cases that are being heard by the church and they're adjudicating marital cases. All of this required Roman law in that was being used at the time. Something that the Panormia, which had a different opus, didn't need as much. So in terms of diocesan administration, these changes to the original collection used as the source the Panormia, were so important for what Walter needed as an administrator.
- [13:41]
Xu Wan
Thanks so much for your answer on my first question. So for next question, the second chapter of the book, I would like to invite you to discuss the legal sources the theological theologians used in their theological reincking.
- [13:59]
Dr. Melody Eichbauer
Yeah, a lot of these guys were all using the same types of law, right? They were using letters and the collections of Evil, of Chartres, they were using Gratians to Kratom. Gratian was a teacher of law. And Bologna in the 1130s, they were using cancel council canons from contemporary councils and they were using letters of the popes. Some of the most common popes that kept popping up were Gregory vii, Urban ii, Alexander III and Innocent iii. So while everyone treat. But what became fascinating is that everyone treated their legal sources differently. And that difference does depended upon again what the purpose of their collection was. Who was their respective audience of this collection. In the case of Peter the chanter, Peter was the archdeacon of Rens. And he was teaching. He was teaching at Notre Dame in Paris. He told because he was a teacher preparing students to serve in society as priests, he tended to use fuller citations, giving students sort of more of the source and where they could find it. But other times, such as with Thomas O. Chobaum, who was serving in an administrative capacity in England, the people he was writing for, they didn't need the sources of law at all. That was beyond what the purpose of his collection. He knew his readers weren't going to need it, so he tended not to include citations at all. He was serving as the officiales, which is a judge and the sub dean in Salisbury. So he. What we find in his collection, his penitential, is that he distilled the law for the reader. Sometimes he might quote attack, sometimes they might provide a summary of the concept, but he did not emphasize the citations at all. And other times we see people reworking their material. And this is. You see this in the case of the penitentials of Bartholomew of Exeter and Robert of Flamboya. Bartholomew drew fabulously immigration. And he was. And he was using this throughout his penitential work. Robert actually drew upon Bartholomew but he didn't slavishly follow Bartholomew. Robert's penitential continued to use the old law that was found in like the Decretum of Burkhardt of Worms that was copied roughly the year 1000. He was drawing probably on Evo Chartres, even though you now have Creation, you now have a ton of papal ladders coming out. And he was drawing also on some of the latest juridical commentaries, such as Kabutio out of Air, out of Bologna. And so the fact that Robert is referencing some of the oldies but goodies, right, the classic his as well as the most contemporary is really showing each compiler had a different purpose in mind when they were putting it together, and they used the sources for that purpose.
- [17:20]
United Airlines Narrator
A message from McAfee.
- [17:23]
Dr. Melody Eichbauer
Wondering why the.
- [17:24]
United Airlines Narrator
Post office is texting you or why you owe thousands of dollars in toll fees because someone's trying to scam you. The good news? McAfee can help with McAfee's award winning scam detection it's easy to tell what's real and what's fake over text in your inbox and online.
- [17:40]
Dr. Melody Eichbauer
If they're FA you wanna free gift.
- [17:42]
United Airlines Narrator
Seriously, if they're faking it, they're not making it past us. Get award winning scam detection today. McAfee.com KeepItReal if we knew more about.
- [17:51]
Apple Watch Advertiser
Our sleep, what would we do differently? Would we go to bed at a consistent time or take steps to reduce interruptions to our sleep? With the all new Sleep score, Apple Watch measures your bedtime consistency, interruptions and sleep duration. Then every morning it combines these factors into an easy to understand score from 1 to 100. So you'll know how to take the quality of your sleep from good to excellent. Introducing the new Sleep score ON Apple Watch iPhone 11 or later required shopping is hard, right?
- [18:22]
Stitch Fix Advertiser
But I found a better way. Stitch Fix Online Personal styling makes it easy. I just give my stylist my size, style and budget preferences. I order boxes when I want and how I want. No subscription required. And he sends just for me pieces plus outfit recommendations and styling tips. I keep what works and send back the rest. It's so easy make style easy. Get started today@stitchfix.com Spotify that's stitchfix.com Spotify.
- [18:49]
Xu Wan
Thank you so much for your answer to my second question. For the next question I would like to invite you to discuss intellectual interplay and porous boundary between theology and law on the cusp of the girls of University of Paris.
- [19:08]
Dr. Melody Eichbauer
So yeah, this is really looking at the period of the early 1100s. And marriage for me sort of been excellent test case for this. His marital law was just starting to be shaped. And you have theologians and lawyers very much engaged in these conversations. And I used a. A big. A fairly decent sized sample of thinkers representing different day jobs, so to speak. So Hugh of St. Victor was a teacher at the abbey of the Augustinian Abbey of St. Victor. Peter Lombard was archdeacon, was arch deacon at Reims, as well as serving as a teacher at Notre Dame. And they were very. They were two figures who were very much part of the dialogue surrounding marriage as a sacrament. But they were also very much engaged in the intellectual climate where the legalities of marriage were at the forefront of conversations between the canonists and the theologians. So then from the legal side, you know, you have Evo Charters Decretum is literally one of. It is a comprehensive collection of law compiled about 1095, the collection of St Victor, which was also compiled at the Abbey of St Victor where Hugh was. And that was compiled a little bit before his arrival in 1125, possibly under the abbey's founder, William of Champeaux Po, who becomes the bishop of Charlenson Mar later. And then Walter clairvonne's collection in 10 parts, really centered at the heart of diocesan administration. And then rounding it out, you have Peter Lombard and you have Gratian sort of serving as some bookends. And what I found, taking all these folks together, the topics they all discuss, whether it was a theological treatise or a legal treatise, they all included some of the same topics. Marriage is a sacrament, the definition of a little legitimate marriage. When a marriage began, the conjugal debt, clandestine marriages, what is the point of marriage? What's the good of marriage? Separation, marriage of unbelievable unbelievers and consanguinity and affinity. Within these central themes, there were a variety of connected sub themes. And the trends that I saw were that on the whole, Hugh of St. Victor and Peter Lombard tended to echo one another, which made sense. Peter Lombard drew on Hugh of St. Victor. So you have that interplay and you see Ivo Chartres, you see the compiler of the collection of St. Victor and Walter of Therulon, also sort of drawing on each other for some things. But what now you start seeing are differences in the day jobs at St. Victor. Whether it was Hugh and his theological treaties, the de sacramentis, or was the compiler of the collection of St. Victor, they all tended to treat those two, tended to treat marriage and the points of marriage very fast. Marital law was dealt with quickly and efficiently, which made sense. These are monks. They're not heavily engaged in marriage, you see. You also start seeing some big discussions in law and theology on certain topics, such as consent. This was being and in this case you see future consent and present consent of marriage. Theology is the one setting the tone for this. But law took it in a different direction. And this is what what I'm saying here is Hugh, Peter Lombard and even Evo Chartres, which was interesting for a lawyer and showing that marital law hadn't been fleshed out. Instead, it's what made people spouses. You see, the future tense I shall take and then the present tense I take. When you say the present tense, you are now officially spouses. That's what made the marriage valid and binding. Future tense, however, was basically betrothal, right? So all you needed was consent. You didn't have whether or not the marriage was consummated with sexual relations. That didn't factor into the discussion. What's interesting is Walter Therawan, who is on the ground, he's the one who struggled with the role of whether or not consummation of marriage is what made a marriage. And the reason being is you put that into context of what the church was focused on at the time, on the ground, in the trenches, so to speak. Clandestine marriages where you have people running off and getting married. We call it elopement. Right. People running off, getting married without witnesses. And is it a valid marriage or not? Especially when, you know, someone has a child and then somebody wants a divorce. Oh, we were never married. She's lying while or he's lying. There are no witnesses to prove it. So you see these again, you see these topics being treated very differently depending upon what somebody's job title is.
- [24:30]
Xu Wan
Thank you so much for your answer. So for the next question, I would like you invite you discuss how Peter LE Changer YOUTH ROLE IN SERVICES OF.
- [24:39]
Dr. Melody Eichbauer
THEOLOGY here's an interesting heavy he he was primarily teaching at the School of Notre Dame and he also served on a regular basis as a judge for in papal trials and as a teacher. He knew that priests, that's who he was going to be training future priests they needed to find solutions to delicate issues. And he wanted to show his students how to go about finding pragmatic resolutions. While legal principles sketch the contours of his thought, he did not slavishly follow the law. And here I used the case study of excommunication to show that he selected the legal principles most fitting to the point that he wanted to make. And then he adapted it for the practicalities of active and of active ministry if he had to. And so a good example of this is the ability to excommunicate and. And reconcile. Binding and loosening is. Is what it was called. He drew upon a long legal tradition to argue that somebody who's excommunicated could not excommunicate others. And he did so preserving the rights of bishops to. To absolve people, particularly if somebody who was excommunicated in their diocese but moved to the diocese of another. He actually found the legal loophole to say, yep, this person could still reconcile them, even though technically they falls under the authority of another bishop. For Peter, being tasked with the care of souls was the necessary ingredient for how to exercise the law and power. And here you really see him engaging in a changing legal tradition where he's distinguishing between major excommunication, which separated somebody not only from the Eucharist, but from society at large, and minor excommunication, which is just separation from the Eucharist. And he's dividing, and he's thinking very strategically about the difference between confession, the internal forum where minor excommunication could happen and a priest could do this, and major excommunication, which is for the rights of bishops. Law was not quite there yet. And so he's really at the forefront of this, and he's also adapting the law to. To. And applying it to places that the canon lawyers weren't. And this is the excommunication. Different offenses. Peter didn't spend a lot of time chatting about it like the lawyers did. He outlined a few offenses that endanger public morals. That was such as circus performers. They were known as rope dancers, notorious drinkers, thieves. But here again, you see act of ministry coming into his interpretation of law because he offered qualifications for theft if the thief was poor and didn't have enough money to sustain themselves. He said, even though they're a thief, they should not be excommunicated. He did apply the law to an area that lawyers didn't, which is the excommunication of prostitutes. I could find no legal precedent in either gracious decretum or papal decretals that says prostitutes should be excommunicated. And so it's really interesting. And I got thinking about, well, why is he doing this? And what I thought was Peter's approaching excommunication from a practical stance. The examples he's providing were exhaustive, but they show shed light on issues that he felt were most pressing. For example, he spent a lot of time on laying violent hands on clerics. And as I said, prostitution, excommunication for him was a means by which to organize society. And a grounding pressure principle for Peter was whether the crime could be proven and the percentage of the people engaged in the crime. Excommunication could lead to turmoil when it was imposed on things that were obvious. And he really talked a lot about accusations of people dressing up like the devil, in which case, hey, you can't prove it unless they're coming out in a devil costume, so they can't be excommunicated. And he talk about the majority of people who are were engaging in the crime. And if the majority of the people are engaging in it, you really can't prosecute it. It will cause upheaval. The example you really focused on was the lady possessing the tie. So in the case of people dressing up like the devil, it can't be proven. Don't prosecute it. In the latter, when the majority are engaged in it, you might be winning that battle by excommunicating them, but you're losing the war. And so for him, one size did not fit all. You had to have the shades of gray and understand the nature and severity of the crime. And this is how he was using the law to teach his students who were going to have to deal with this. He really didn't focus on a pro stance or a conscious stance. He wasn't teaching law, he was teaching how to minister to people. And you needed to have the law to do that.
- [29:59]
Xu Wan
Thanks so much for answering. For next question, I would like invite you to. Sorry to discuss how Roberts of Calculus Youth Law in Service of Theology Robert.
- [30:12]
Dr. Melody Eichbauer
Porcin is an interesting, interesting category. Of all the theologians, and I need to emphasize this, they had degrees in theology. He was the most engaged in the external forum, meaning the court system and juridical procedure. His day to day job was public administrative. He was instrumental in drafting the statutes of the University of Paris. He was called often to serve as a judge in different cases. He was a papal delegate in France and he was at the forefront of preaching against the heretics known as Albigensians who went against the Catholic Church. He also presided over a number of church councils. It's his work against the Albigensians, however, that I found him using law in a fascinating way. So he legitimized clerical involvement in heresy cases that resulted in death. There was a long standing legal tradition that clerics could not be involved in death penalty death penalty cases. And the case that he was dealing with was against the Knight Evrard of Shantinoff, who had been convicted at the Council of Paris in 1201. Rotter was one of the judges, along with a number of masters of theology from Paris, again engaged in a court case and the care and a particular canon lawyer, Rhodicus of then there were a number of archbishops and bishops throughout Prince K. Lovellum. Robert noted that now Robert I need to make clear, was sentenced to death. Robert noted that Everard had been drudged a heretic, he had lapsed and then he had relapsed. And he put this into compacts of the process for dealing with heretics sought out by Pope Lucius III in his Decretal aba landum, which was issued in 1189. And he said the legal process had been followed as established by Pope, that is, an ecclesiastical tribunal examined the case. The charges of heresy had been proven and the guilty had been handed over to lay officials. In this count, in this case, it was the pontiff never who had executed the punishment, meaning executed. Robert himself commented, I am prepared for this malefactor to be hung or burned or dismissed or die. It's almost as if in his the way he was using the law to justify his stance, that he was coming to grips with the realities of this case, that it was he, along with his fellow judges, who held the responsibility for the outcomes of this case and this knight being put to death. And he used the case. He used text from Gracious Freedom, he used text from Roman Law. Robert not only explained the legal justification for applying the death penalty in here heresy cases, but also justified clerical involvement in such trials, which again, was not proper form. More importantly, though, as you go through these legal justifications and his use of law was that Robert seems to be trying to clear his own conscience. He didn't skirt the realities at the time, clerics were involved in the world around them, and sometimes the world around them was unpleasant. But it's different to say, theoretically, the world around them and the world around him is unpleasant. But for him, that it was the reality. He was engaged in that world and was responsible for the decisions that were made.
- [34:08]
Podcast Host
You're tuned into Auto intelligence live from AutoTrader, where data, tools and your preferences sit. Think to make your car shopping smooth.
- [34:16]
Dr. Melody Eichbauer
They're searching inventory.
- [34:18]
Podcast Host
Oh, yeah. They find what you need, they're gonna find it.
- [34:21]
Capella University Advertiser
You can make a budget for your.
- [34:22]
Dr. Melody Eichbauer
Wallet to help you succeed. Pricing's precise and true, so true it's.
- [34:27]
Podcast Host
Smarter Car shopping, oh, just for you oh, it's just for you Find your next ride@autotrader.com Powered by Auto Intelligence Hablas.
- [34:38]
Xu Wan
Espanol spries to Deutsch.
- [34:41]
United Airlines Customer
If you used Babbel, you would Babble's conversation based techniques teaches you useful words and phra to get you speaking quickly about the things you actually talk about in the real world. With lessons handcrafted by over 200 language experts and voiced by real native speakers, Babbel is like having a private tutor in your pocket. Start speaking with Babbel today. Get up to 55% off your Babbel subscription right now at babbel.com Spotify spelled B-A B-B-E-L.com Spotify rules and restrictions may.
- [35:07]
Capella University Advertiser
Apply at Capella University. Learning online doesn't mean learning alone. You'll get support from people who care about your success, like your enrollment specialist who gets to know you and the goals you'd like to achieve. You'll also get a designated academic coach who's with you throughout your entire program. Plus, career coaches are available to help you navigate your professional goals. A different future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn more at Capella Eduardo, thank you.
- [35:39]
Xu Wan
So much for your answer. For the next question, I would like invite you to discuss how Robert Aframe Borough used also with the law in his services on theology.
- [35:53]
Dr. Melody Eichbauer
Again, I keep saying everyone is an interesting character, but wow, he's an interesting character. He served as the penitentiarist for University of Paris. That meant he was the prior person who heard the confessions of the students who were all clerics attending the University of Paris. And so he compiled a penitential for this for for his use and his work. And he adapted this from Bartholomew of Exeter's penitential. But Bartholomew had a very different job. Bartholomew was serving as the archdeacon of the Bishop of Exeter at the time. So Bartholomew was really focused on the lady and Robert and Fly be was really focused on clerics. And Robert emphasized topics in a way that would be conducive to the pastoral care of university students and the environment that the university occupied. Bartholomew, however, treated his tailor his treatment of homicide and homicide was my case study here to really focus on the lady. Those are the people he served. Right? He emphasized voluntary homicide, dealt with it straight out of the gate. And then after that he focused on the murder of clerics. Murder committed by clerics. He spent time focusing on murdering family members and spouses. Robert, however, began his section on homicide with the topic of suicide. I found that an interesting choice suicide fit under in the medieval law. It fit under the umbrella of homicide because it was the deliberate and willful act of killing oneself. It carried the stigma of murder. And you know, and this has been really noted by Alan Murray, who said the result from suicide and from murder, they looked very much the same. So Robert drew upon Bartholomew's potential as a cleat he sourced. But the question was, why did he position suicide at the very beginning when Bartholomew did not address it until midway through his topic and it was just sort of tucked in there? The answer was and. And again, Robert also used different legal texts than what Bartholomew did. He, as I said, Robert went back to the. To the oldies but goodies like Burcard of Worms. I think the answer to both of these questions lay in the environment in which Robert worked. As quintiaris. He heard, as I said, the students, concussions. Students are a vulnerable population subject to the stresses of university life, and they are today. There's no reason to think it wasn't the same in the Middle Ages. Those stresses can lead to isolation and broken social ties with one's community, whatever that community could be. Such feelings can lead to suicide. Second, conflicts between town and down, between the university and Paris were frequent. Paris was not only the center of the university, obviously, but it was also the center of capacity and dynasties, administrative activity. And so it was a bustling city and scuffles often erupted between students and residents or visitors. And this happened in 1200. It involved an innkeeper and the servant of his name was Henri de Jost and he was a German who was a master at the university. And interestingly, at the time in convention for the papal see at Liege to be bishop. And the scuffle actually erupted over the purchasing of wine. And as it's recounted, the servant ended up being clogged. And Henri, even though he was a master at Paris, he sought revenge for the beating of his servant. A massive scuffle erupted and the provost of Paris, his name was Thomas, was brought in to deal with the issue. It was him and armed citizens. They went to the residence of. Of Henri and Henri and his household were killed. The king ordered that Thomas, he had overstepped his bounds. He that Thomas was supposed to serve a life in prison in close confinement with meager food, unless he wished to undergo trial by water. Accomplices were to be hunted down. What you see in Paris at this time and why this story is really important is that university, whether students or masters, for instance, they were very much engaged in the life of the city. But the life of the city had two jurisdictions that were overlapping at that time. You had secular jurisdiction and ecclesiastical jurisdiction. And there was tremendous amount of slippage between the two that clerics students could actually end up either serving in life imprisonment sentences, they could accidentally end up being put into capital cases. These could all be causing stress. And this is where as the penitentiarius students, even though they normally fell under ecclesiastical jurisdiction, they could become mixed into these disputes. Suicide to avoid incarceration or punishment might become a factor. And so I think you really see here Robert tackling head on. Even if they are everyday concerns, they were enough of a concern that he had to deal with it. Where Bartholomew not as much.
- [41:58]
Xu Wan
Thanks so much for your answer. So, for last question today I want to invite you to discuss. Thomas Chapel used law in service of theology.
- [42:08]
Dr. Melody Eichbauer
Thomas was the last person that I really dealt with in the book. He served as sub dean of Salisbury from 1206 to 1208 sometime. He began his position between 1206 and 1208 and he served in that position until his death sometime between 1233 and 1236. And originally I was like, oh, I don't want to deal with this. I just want this book to be done. But I thought, okay, he is part of the circle of Peter of Tantor. And that's where Robert Corson, Robert Flabois, Marco Axeter Thomas was one of the last ones in this circle. I'm like, he. He deserves this time in the spotlight. And he served as the officiales of Salisbury between 1214 and 1216 17. And he also wrote a penitential. And I was like, well, as subding and judge, he might have an in England to say the least, because there was a lot of interplay between England and Paris at this time because of the angel dynasty in England. King of England serving as Duke of Anjou and owning most of Western France. I thought this could be interesting. How is this being handled? And he was pretty run of the mill, very. He didn't use law a lot. But when it came to his section on greed, I found it fascinating that he's actually engaging in the contemporary secular legal climate. So he's using canon law to comment on secular law as issued by the King. And he did this by addressing top. He did this in his sections addressing the finding of treasure troves and the theft of animals. Again, two topics you wouldn't think were very interesting, which is why you kind of got to get into the information. And so what he did is he juxtaposed the intention of the finder with the ownership of property, particularly as he's thinking about treasure and he basically said if somebody found hidden treasure in a field, he could retain the whole treasure. If someone found it by chance in a field belonging to another, they can have half of it. And if somebody who searches the land, if somebody belonging to another, you could have none of it. And he really drew this all from Roman law. Really Law of Hadrian basically said roughly the same thing. Nothing wildly interesting except the fact he's using Roman law to talk about if you're finding property. He used this Roman law as a basis for the theft of animals. Domestic animals had to be returned. But you wild animals, you can't own them but if they keep coming back to you, they're yours. Bit like my semi domesticated docs in my backyard. And this again is Roman law. Right. He's using Justinian's Institutes here to talk about all of this. This what makes this fascinating. Now here's where it comes into secular practice. He the finding of treasure and animals provided Thomas the opportunity to comment on and express his disagreement with kings and princes who said that whatever is in a field, be it treasure or animal, belong to them. And as Thomas Seth sets 4 this is not what you're seeing in Roman law. And his position is very. And Thomas's position that he's putting off is at odds with the secular law, such as what you find in Glanville and is trapped on the laws and customs of England which was written in the 1180s where Glanville's treats the concealment of the treasure trolls as a criminal plea. And here Glanville sort of goes in when a charge is based on public notoriety. He lay Landville lays out the procedure to try the person because they have. They've concealed a treasure trove that technically is not theirs and belongs to the king. Thomas then gets into and I think this notion against Thomas treats animals whether it's domestic or whether it's former or a wild animal as you know, placing it in the framework of Roman law. This is really I think taking issue with Cannon a of Henry II's inquest of sheriffs regarding forests. He's taking issue with forest law. Forest law had become a big. Had become a contentious issue in England. It's that idea that the king could prosecute anyone who is in there for like anything in the forest, whether it's woods, deer, what the wood deer, wild beast, whatever it is, if it's in a forest, it belongs to the king. And I think what's happening here is you see Thomas really kind of going against this because Ford's Law, as I said, had become coined of conventions. They were economically important for people, whether it was lay or clarity or the clerics they had provided pastures, timber, wood, heritable reserves. And the idea that the king could, you know, the idea that the venison and bert, meaning the deer and the vegetation the deer fed on all were to be reserved to the king to serve and people had to serve on as hunting parties, even to the point of moving their domestic animals out of the forest when deer were fawning to protect it for the king. You see, Thomas really taking, taking issue with this notion that all land, whether it's things you find as treasures or whether it's first law, this idea that all land could be privatized in the hand of one person to the detriment of the many. And so while he took fairly standard definitions of theft and robbery, he used these standard definitions to comment on contemporary trends. And I think that's what's really fascinating, because as a diocesan administrator, he would have to have a firm grasp on secular rulings in order to understand how they impacted the people who were under his career.
- [48:37]
Xu Wan
Okay, thanks so much for your for all your answer to all my questions today. So at the end of our podcast episode today, I want to directly talk to our listeners. So my dear listeners, if you take any interest in medieval history, in history of law, history of Christianity, I personally recommend you consider buy a copy. Now. Please take notes of the title of, of this book, Law in Cultural Theology. So thanks so much for listening to our episode today. Have a good day.
- [49:26]
Podcast Host
You can't count on much these days.
- [49:28]
Dr. Melody Eichbauer
No way.
- [49:29]
Xu Wan
Jim.
- [49:29]
Podcast Host
This is incredible, but you can always count on Sundays with the NFL on CBS and Paramount. Plus, here we go. This time for real. Watch your local NFL game live every Sunday all the way through the AFC Championship game. And he's in for a touchdown. Visit paramountplus.com NFL to get started today and count on Sundays with the NFL on CBS and Paramount. Plus.