Michael Mann Reconsidered: Thief and The Insider

Summary

Podcast Summary: New Books Network

Episode: Michael Mann Reconsidered: Thief and The Insider
Date: March 17, 2026
Hosts: Professors Stephen Dice and Jeff Dudis

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Episode Overview

This episode inaugurates the "Michael Mann Movie Tournament," where Professors Dice and Dudis debate and rank Mann’s top eight films to determine which is the "best" or "most Michael Mann" movie. The first matchup is between Thief (1981) and The Insider (1999). The hosts discuss the merits, themes, and legacies of both films, examining their importance both in Mann's career and broader cinema. The conversation ranges from aesthetics and genre influence to questions of narrative depth, character development, and thematic resonance, with particularly passionate disagreement over Thief’s artistic value.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Introduction to the Michael Mann Tournament

[01:31]

• The bracket uses Rotten Tomatoes to seed Mann's eight highest-rated films.
• Thief (6th seed), The Insider (1st seed) are the first head-to-head.
  • Thief (1981): 80% critics, 81% audience
  • The Insider (1999): 96% critics, 90% audience
• Format: Compare each film, declare a winner, and reflect on what each work reveals about Michael Mann’s enduring preoccupations.

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Deep Dive: Thief (1981)

Directorial Debut and Stylistic Foundations

[02:00–04:45]

• Mann’s first theatrical film, deeply inspired by Kubrick and Mann's own Chicago upbringing.
• Establishes iconic Mann motifs: urban nightscapes, moody synth music, focus on craft and codes in criminality.

“A lot of the movie’s distinctive style...is him remembering different visions of the city during his childhood at night.”
— Professor Stephen Dice [01:52]

• Early evidence of Mann’s fascination with the criminal as craftsman, and the tension between individual autonomy and oppressive systems.

Soundtrack & Aesthetic Choices

[04:34–04:45]

• Thief’s synth-heavy Tangerine Dream score is divisive.

"The soundtrack is amazing...I really like it. I know it divides a bit."
— Dice [04:34]

• Dice: Style is not superficial, but deeply bound to substance, representing Frank's (James Caan) need to control his world.

Narrative Structure and Thematic Depth

[06:10–11:06]

• Dice passionately defends Thief’s “neon noir” influence—argues that style is substance.
• Frank is an artisan resisting capitalist co-option; trouble begins when he’s forced into larger “corporate” criminal enterprises.

“Frank can only exist as an independent craftsperson...not incorporable into a boss structure. Mann is making a point of wider societal importance: I’m an artisan in a world that is increasingly generically capitalist.”
— Dice [08:44]

• The pivotal diner scene where Frank explains his worldview is highlighted for revealing his trauma and arrested social development.

Criticism and Plot/Character Issues

[11:06–14:57]

• Dudis finds the characters "not well-drawn" and the plot riddled with implausibilities (unclear timelines, rushed relationships, vague backstories).

“There are times when it’s effective. There are other times where it becomes distracting to me...That kind of threw me out of the conceit.”
— Dudis [14:48]

• Issues with the development and motivation of Tuesday Weld’s character and Frank’s relationship with his criminal mentor.
• Dice counters that Frank is an archetype, so some mythic license is appropriate.

The Labor/Capital Metaphor

[17:11–18:47]

• Dice: The “real thief” is the boss who appropriates Frank’s labor. The film expresses the impossibility of artisanal independence.

“My money is still in your pocket, which is from the yield of my labor. You are making big profits from my work, my risk, my sweat. But that is okay because I elected to make that deal. But now that deal is over.”
— Frank (quoted by Dice) [18:22]

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Deep Dive: The Insider (1999)

Overview & Stylistic Comparison

[19:31–20:24]

• Later Mann film, biopic based on the real-life tobacco industry whistleblower Jeffrey Wigand.
• The Insider is less stylized than Mann’s crime thrillers but similarly explores individuals resisting corrupt institutions.

“They are individuals who are trying to fight against...broader corporate structure.”
— Dudis [19:58]

Performance & Structure

[20:24–23:51]

• Strong performances by Al Pacino (as 60 Minutes producer Lowell Bergman) and Russell Crowe (as Jeffrey Wigand).
• Pacino delivers a disciplined, “quiet” performance for most of the film, with a powerful emotional crescendo at the climax.

“[Pacino] avoids his usual...it is very moody. And he does sort of turn the story into a kind of semi-criminal thing.”
— Dice [22:22]

• Dudis finds it holds together better as a story than Thief, partly because it doesn’t overindulge in Mann’s signature style and has stronger acting.

Criticisms and Contemporary Resonance

[23:51–26:35]

• Both hosts agree The Insider is “very skillfully executed,” but perhaps a touch over-praised; Dudis does not see it as Mann’s best.
• Critique: At least a half hour too long, tendency to “drag at the end” like many Mann films.
• Dice insists it remains relevant and moving in its depiction of journalism’s collision with corporate power.

Thematic Complexity and Ambiguous Ending

[25:46–27:48]

• The film contrasts Bergman’s faith in journalism and facts with Wigand's cynicism about truth effecting change.
• The ending is bittersweet: both protagonists move into lower-impact careers, raising questions about institutional progress and individual sacrifice.

“Tremendous faith that Lowell Bergman has in the integrity and importance of journalism...And also that if you get the facts to the American public, it will make a difference. These are currently contested notions.”
— Dice [25:46]

• Contemporary parallels are discussed, implying Mann’s scenario could play out today with social media whistleblowing, etc.

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On Style:
  “Thief is all style, no substance. I, I totally disagree.”
  — Dice [08:38]

• On Wage Theft & Frank’s Arc:
  “The boss...is the real thief, right? He’s thieving Frank’s labor.”
  — Dice [08:44]

• On Journalism & Reform:
  “How does public service transmission and finding out of information coexist with corporate capitalism?”
  — Dice [25:46]

• On Endings:
  “The strange thing about Mann’s movies is that they tend to drag for me, toward the end.”
  — Dudis [24:28]

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Judgment: Thief vs. The Insider

Final Arguments

[27:51–29:13]

• Dudis moderately prefers The Insider, but “not enthusiastically”—thinks both films will be outclassed by later entries.
• Dice is a fervent Thief defender, emphasizing its innovation and importance.
• They settle: Thief advances by decision rule—Dice’s strong preference outweighing Dudis’s weak one.

“I like the Insider and admire it. I think Thief is just a much more important and distinctive piece of work.”
— Dice [28:26]

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Important Timestamps

• [01:31] — Tournament introduction & film seeds
• [03:35] — Early Mann style and Thief origins
• [06:10] — Disagreement on Thief’s brilliance
• [11:06] — Characterization and archetypes in Thief
• [17:11] — Labor, autonomy, and wage theft discussion
• [19:31] — Transition to The Insider
• [22:22] — Pacino and Crowe’s performances in The Insider
• [25:46] — Journalism’s integrity and public impact
• [27:51] — Decision debate: which film advances
• [29:21] — Next episode preview: Manhunter vs. Ferrari

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Tone & Takeaways

The debate is collegial but charged, especially regarding Thief’s artistic merit. Dice champions the film’s mythic, archetypal quality and genre importance; Dudis is more critical of its storytelling gaps and representations. Both agree The Insider is meticulously made, relevant, and features strong performances, but is also somewhat conventional and overlong.

Ultimately, Thief advances to the next round, fueled by Dice’s passionate defense and the film’s lasting influence on contemporary “neon noir.”

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Next Matchup:

Manhunter vs. Ferrari

Stay tuned for further heated debate—and more insights into Michael Mann’s enduring cinematic legacy.

Transcript

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[Professor Jeff Dudis]

Welcome to the New Books Network.

[Professor Stephen Dice]

I'm Professor Stephen Dice.

[Professor Jeff Dudis]

And I'm Professor Jeff Dudis.

[Professor Stephen Dice]

And this is the Michael Mann Movie Tournament. We have set out to find the best Michael Mann movie or maybe the most Michael Mann movie. And we're doing it in the following way. We have selected the top eight Michael Mann movies according to Rotten Tomatoes. In the first round, we have set up a head to head single elimination matchup, randomly drawn. And then the winners from those four first round matchups advance to our grand finale. Obviously, we're going to do the perhaps slightly reductive thing of picking a winner in each of these, each of these matchups. But also along the way, we'll do the hopefully more generative thing of thinking about the themes and ideas that have animated Michael Mann as a writer and as a, as a director and seem to elicit his best work in this first matchup Today, Jeff, we've got number six seed thief versus number one seed, the insider, randomly drawn six seed thief. It's a six seed because it has an 80% critic score on rotten tomatoes and an 81% audience score. So very similarly received by those two groups. Then the insider from 1999, the number one seed, the highest ranked, Michael Mann movie, 96% critics on rotten tomatoes, 90% audience. So not. Not a tiny bit of a difference between the two groups, but not that much. Let's talk about each movie sequentially and then we'll do the, you know, the fight about which movie is to advance. Can we start with Thief? Yes, because that's where Michael Mann started. So this is Michael Mann's first movie. He wrote and directed the movie. He grew up himself in Chicago. And he said that a lot of the sights that maybe he kind of half remembered from a youth growing up or, you know, memory plays tricks on you. But a lot of the movies distinctive style, which would become a very Michael Mann style, is him remembering different visions of the city during his childhood at night. Different alleyways, different structures within the city. Also sets up a persistent Michael Mann interest in crime and the criminal. Persistent interest in the craftsman, you know, and the criminal with a code and maybe the craftsman who's battling against or fighting against being incorporated by larger forces including, but not, but not limited to the police. What did you make of Thief, Jeff?

[Professor Jeff Dudis]

So Thief, as you say, is Michael Mann's first movie. It is not his first directorial credit. He had done some TV movies and I think he had had some writing credits on some TV shows as well. But it is his first Hollywood picture, actually. It's an independent picture, but it's his first movie, so to speak. And, you know, he was very inspired, I think, originally by Stanley Kubrick and in particular by Dr. Strangelo. And so he had spent a lot of time overseas in film school. This was somebody who, you know, emerges with that first movie relatively formed, I think, as a director, as an artist. And I think you can really see that in Thief. There are a lot of very stylistic things that we see for the first time from him in Thief, but which will become recurring motifs over and over again. The kind of. The moody, synthy background music will become a dominant theme for Tangerine Dream.

[Professor Stephen Dice]

The soundtrack is amazing. Amazing to Thief. Like, I really. I really like it. I know it divides a bit.

[Professor Jeff Dudis]

It depends upon your tolerance for that style of music, which Very high. Which man uses for everything.

[Professor Stephen Dice]

Yeah.

[Professor Jeff Dudis]

And I. I think arguably there's an aesthetic and an appropriate time to use that kind of moody music. And it can be a bit off putting and put you out of, as you like to say, out of. Out of the sequence, so to speak, when it appears in other contexts. That will be a theme for him, really, for the most of the 1980s. And then there's a series of stylistic choices that frequently revolve around, like, close ups and slow motions, which, again, I think your tolerance for that can vary, that there are times when it's effective. There are other times where it becomes distracting to me. And then, of course, the other thing about Thief, which is hard to. At this point, this is a movie that's nearly. Well, it's 45 years old at this point. And so it's hard to kind of go back and put yourself in the mind of how much this story is a precursor or a forerunner to a kind of a genre piece and how much it's just kind of one of a bunch of this sort of theme, which is the last big score that the criminal's gonna do before they finally get out. And I will admit to now feeling, in retrospect, like that trope is tired and overdone. But I don't know if it was tired and overdone at the time when Thief appears.

[Professor Stephen Dice]

So this, I think, is crucial because for me, I think it's fair to say we haven't really discussed these movies in depth, but we just exchanged a couple of text messages. Like what? Thumbs up, thumbs down, as we were thinking about these movies. And it's fair to say that I was shocked at how uncertain or unsure you are about Thief's merits, because I think it's brilliant. And one reason I think it's brilliant is precisely what you have to go back to 1981. You can't look at Thief and say, well, it's just, you know, Heat rehashed. That's the wrong way around. Right. It's. It's not only influential in Michael Mann's later career. There are clearly elements of other things. You know, some of the kind of slow motion and the synthy stuff would reappear in something like Manhunter. Some of the themes of the criminality and the police and the underworld would reappear in Heat. So. And the stylistic things would be the foundations for a lot of. A lot of later Michael Mann's films. So it's not only a template for his hugely influential career, but he is, sorry, Thief is extremely influential, I think, beyond Michael Mann. And so one of my favorite movies of the Last sort of 10 years is have you seen this Nicholas Winding reference, Drive? No. With Ryan Gosling. So Drive is, like, so influenced by Thief. It's just untrue. And that whole genre, neon noir, not neo noir, but neon with it with an N at the end, is, as I understand it, basically a Michael Manny genre.

[Professor Jeff Dudis]

I want to pause on this point for a Moment. Because here, the original Miami Vice TV show, I think is really important.

[Professor Stephen Dice]

He was involved in that too.

[Professor Jeff Dudis]

It sits in the background. Right. And he was an executive producer for that show. And all of those elements, the slow mo elements, the synthy music, the kind of high style neon, as you say, set against a kind of gritty crime background, they arguably reach their apotheos, I think, in Miami Vice. And, and they certainly reached their cultural saturation point in Miami Vice. And I wonder, I will admit to not having watched any of the original Miami Vice, frankly, since it was first shown, but I do wonder if maybe those aesthetic choices are better in that sort of a context, like televisual, a televisual high style in which the high style is not, it's not an affect, it's. It's in many ways sort of the whole point of the show. And I wonder if it, if that works a little better in that context than it does on the big screen.

[Professor Stephen Dice]

So this is your critique, right? Thief. Thief is all style, no substance. I, I totally disagree.

[Professor Jeff Dudis]

More style than substance.

[Professor Stephen Dice]

Let's fundamentally disagree. I mean, so first of all, that's not, that's a classic way to dismiss a, a work of film. Yeah. Which does sort of elide the fact that it's a visual medium. So this, the style is actually quite substantively important just in per se. So that's point one. Point two, I don't think the style of Thief is divorced from or is hiding an insignificant substance. I think it's making a series of substantive points. Right. So here is Frank, the protagonist of Thief. He is a person who can exist in a particular context. Right. And he can exist in a context where he's, as he says, I'm jaw boss of my own body. Right. I can only exist as an independent craftsperson and I'm well embedded in the underworld, but I'm fundamentally independent. I'm not incorporable into a boss structure. Crucially, the point I think man is making of wider societal importance is I'm an artisan in a world that is increasingly generically capitalist. Okay, Right. And when do things start going wrong for James Caan's character, Frank? It's when he starts to step outside of his very self contained world that he's built for himself. And he does it in ways that he chooses, but in ways that are also foisted upon. He forms personal relationships that take him away from a sole focus on his work with his relationship with Tuesday Weld's character. And then he's incorporated into the wider, against his will into the wider criminal, but ultimately corporatist or capitalist. Not corporatist, corporation based or capitalist enterprise of the big boss, who I would argue is the real thief, right. He's thieving Frank's labor. Things start going wrong from him. That's at that point. How does that match up with. The style is itself the substance. Frank can only exist in that very stylish nighttime, very enclosed alleyway kind of world of Chicago. Once he's taken out of that and he's taken out of it kind of visually. So stylistically he has to go to la, he has to start meeting people and existing in the daytime in a wider context, interacting with bureaucracies which on the civilian side or the law abiding side are just as corrupt as they are on the criminal side. That's when he as a person can, you know, he can only really approach these things through his little collage that he's made. That is not at all a representation of a real life in which he can't exist. So the style is kind of making that point, I would say.

[Professor Jeff Dudis]

Yeah, I think I hear you. And I'm not suggesting that style is unimportant, particularly in a visual medium. My problem with Thief is I think that the characters are not very well drawn. I think you have wrenched out as much as possibly can be wrenched out of the actual presentation of these characters on the screen. And maybe the characterization is too subtle for my eye. I guess that's possible. And I just didn't see this. But I found myself consistently puzzled at the choices that people like Frank and the Tuesday World character were making. I didn't think that they were well explained. I found Frank's choices particularly bizarre given the backdrop of what you have just been talking about. There doesn't appear to be. There's almost no time spent on his decision to partner up with Leo the big boss.

[Professor Stephen Dice]

Coerced. It's not really a decision, right? Like Leo like tells him it's kind of half coercion. And he has actually been partnering with Leo. He just didn't realize it. Which is another point Mann's making about the impossibility of independent enterprise or owning your own labor as an artisan in a capitalist system. But also it's for Frank, his path to the daytime, out of the neon nighttime and into the daytime is he gets enough money from this scar and then he can kind of live his fantasy life. I agree that it's implausible to you and me, but the point of Frank and this is what he explains to choose Dewild's character in that long famous Dyna zine is all of his formative years are spent in prison, right. Where he's denied the opportunities to develop the kind of understandings of how to exist in society that other people would have.

[Professor Jeff Dudis]

Here's another problem. Like I don't understand his timeline, and this is my other issue is I think there's some sloppy storytelling here. He tells Tuesday, well, he's been in prison for 11 years. Later, however, when they are attempting to adopt a child, it turns out that he's been in prison for 17 years. And so which is which, I also don't understand the mentor character played by Willie Nelson. I don't understand when it is that Frank is supposed to have been the apprentice here. Like if they were in prison together. I fail to see how the kind of hands on skills that the sort of thieving that he does would seem to require. How does he develop those exactly from Willie Nelson when they're both in prison?

[Professor Stephen Dice]

And how using salt and pepper shakers to scheme out there been four years

[Professor Jeff Dudis]

that he's been out. How exactly has he so quickly elevated himself into this sort of what appears to be a rather high and benighted position as a thief? So that's the kind of stuff I'm talking about when I say I had problems with the substance of this movie. That kind of threw me out of the conceit. What felt to me like storytelling plot holes, what felt to me like strange characterizations. I'll be candid. I don't understand Tuesday Walt's character at all. And I don't understand how. I don't understand that relationship. I don't understand how long it's been going on, if it has been going on before the diner scene. I don't understand how quickly she just sort of decides that, yeah, I'm going to throw in my lot with this high criminal again after having apparently already had a lifetime of that. So that's the kind of stuff I'm talking about. That when you spend so much time on the aesthetics, that's fine. But then to my mind, it should be complemented by spending the same work, if not more time on things like character development and plotting and storytelling. And so that to me is why I found Thief ultimately sort of unsatisfying.

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[Professor Stephen Dice]

I'll buy part of that, which is, you know, if we say, what are themes and ideas that man seems to kind of center around? Men is one of them, right? So one problem with Choosey World's character is a classic problem in stories that are essentially about male protagonists by male right? She exists as a, you know, an object in for his schemes, and therefore she either has no agency of her own or her agency is just a way of illuminating something about the central protagonist. So I'll give you that. Frank, though, I think, you know, he's an archetype. It's an archetypal story. So I guess I have more patience for it not being kind of plausible or at all necessarily kind of lining up because I think the movie is. Is telling us a story about him as an archetype. And he's making a broader point, again, as I say, about the individual within a capitalist system, the individual artisan. I mean, listen to this. You know, in terms of characterization, when Frank talks to the big boss, who I think is the real thief, when the thief is villain for sure. Yeah. The real villain who shodded him on his labor. My money is still in your pocket, which is from the yield of my labor. You are making big profits from my work, my risk, my sweat. But that is okay because I elected to make that deal. But now that deal is over. Well, of course it's not over because you can't get out of it. But that is, that is a classic statement of kind of wage theft or labor, you know, appropriation of labor that would find itself, you know, coming. Coming from the. The mouth of a Marxist of which Frank. Well, that's found.

[Professor Jeff Dudis]

It points to the asymmetry of the capital fundamental capitalist relationship.

[Professor Stephen Dice]

Right. Which is the same in the criminal world as it is in the. The so called legit world. The police just want to cut. We got to move on to the insider here. So point here, I would say also in Defensive Thief, you know, some of the greatest dialogue in my view. And James Caan developed a very, you know, he used very few contractions. This is what I am telling you. You know, there's very staccato mode of delivery. And Frank, I think does develop his character through his sort of staccato delivery. I want to meet people. I'll go to the country club. You want to meet people, Join a lonely hearts club. I think the best one when someone says to him, how are you? How am I? I'm Frank. You know, I think it's just a great statement of his character. So total disagreement, I'm afraid, about thief.

[Professor Jeff Dudis]

Significant disagreement. Yeah.

[Professor Stephen Dice]

I wonder what we'll end up thinking about the Insider. So the insider is substantially later. Michael Matt film 1999. You know, man's films do seem to split into kind of two main categories, right? There's kind of the criminal thriller. It's like he thief, collateral, that kind of thing. And then the sort of biopic, slash true story, you know, insider, Ali Ferrari you know, and these. These are different buckets of.

[Professor Jeff Dudis]

They're different buckets. They do, as you had alluded to earlier, have through lines, certainly in the Insider, we were confronted with two characters, you know, the Al Pacino character and the Russell Crowe character, Jeffrey Wigan, who are existing in that kind. They're individuals who are trying to fight against sort of broader corporate structures or trying to survive within broader corporate structure.

[Professor Stephen Dice]

They're both insiders.

[Professor Jeff Dudis]

They're both insiders. For a time. They are successful, even very successful within these structures. But each of them come to a point at which they have to push against or really actually leave and expose the mal intent and the bad works of these broader organizations. I had seen the Insider when it first was out on video. So this would have been 99 or 2000. Had not watched it since I will admit to having no recollection of Al Pacino's character whatsoever. I had completely forgotten about that entire storyline, which it turns out is arguably the most prominent one I know a lot about, because at the time I was doing scholarship actually on the tobacco, Big Tobacco litigation. And so this, all of this was very familiar to me in a real life sense as well, which is maybe why I didn't clock fictionally with it that much. But I had the experience with the Insider that I've had with a lot of Michael Mann's movies, which is that I saw them when they first came out and then not again until now. And they have not always stuck with me very well. And I'll be interested to see over the course of this series whether that is meaningful to me. I have a suspicion that it might be. I think the Insider is a more successful story and maybe it's because it actually doesn't lean as hard into these sort of classic Michael Mann style elements, right. The slow mos, the moody, the synthy background music, the. Is kind of used no matter the setting. I think also, I mean, Pacino and Crowe are really good, right? This is a really good late Al Pacino performance.

[Professor Stephen Dice]

Well, I wanted to make a point about this. So, of course, everyone knows the kind of cliche that Le Perry Pacino will kind of start down here and then it'll go up here all of a sudden, you know. And he does almost none of. And it's very disciplined by Michael Mann, as you're right, he avoids his usual Putting a lot of his style. There's elements of his style on there. It is very moody. And he does sort of change it into a. To turn the story into a kind of semi Criminal thing. You know, there are, like, assassins pursuing implied. You know, people who want to do Wigand harm kind of pursuing him or surveilling him. So there is that element. And then Pacino has it, I think, very convincingly plays the kind of slightly reformed, but still at heart radical journalist. Quite convincing, you know, and is himself quite disciplined, you know, and sort of quiet, in a sense, for late period Pacino, except for the final 30 minutes, where I think he does become more Al Pacino. And there is a great kind of late period Pacino moment where he says, you know, what are you gonna do? Fire my ass? And he not only goes up in voice, but he does the classic, like, hip wiggle thing first, you know, becomes a bit Tony d'. Amato.

[Professor Jeff Dudis]

It's in story.

[Professor Stephen Dice]

It makes sense.

[Professor Jeff Dudis]

It's in context. I also think it's. I mean, it's arguably Russell Crowe's best performance. Yeah, he's very, very good, Emmett. And so I. I suspect that that is what reviewers are responding. I don't think it's a 96% movie.

[Professor Stephen Dice]

Yeah.

[Professor Jeff Dudis]

Yeah. I don't think it's Michael Mann's best mood.

[Professor Stephen Dice]

Just spoiler alert worthy true story.

[Professor Jeff Dudis]

Yes.

[Professor Stephen Dice]

You know, the skill. Very skillfully executed with a big budget and big name stars. Like, it's obvious, you know. So you write. You write in your criticism. It's very important movie. Shining a light on it. And all of this is true. Yeah. But you can see why it would have that.

[Professor Jeff Dudis]

But a lot of times these very important movies don't hold up very well.

[Professor Stephen Dice]

Yeah.

[Professor Jeff Dudis]

And I think that's kind of the case with the Insider. It was fine. It's a half hour too long. Which is also a recurring theme in your.

[Professor Stephen Dice]

In your view. You know, this is two of us here. I will. It's.

[Professor Jeff Dudis]

It drags. And the strange thing about Mann's movies is that they tend to drag for me, towards the end of the movie.

[Professor Stephen Dice]

Interesting.

[Professor Jeff Dudis]

Which you would think. I mean, ordinarily, movies tend to drag in the middle, and then they find some momentum when they're skillfully done by a skilled person. Like Michael Mann is for me, his movies tend to drag at the end.

[Professor Stephen Dice]

Well, I'll say something to you that I don't know if you'll appreciate this. I don't know where you are in your Michael Mann rewatches, but I. I see what you're saying. I'm less harsh on him for that. And I just watched Ali. My goodness. So anyway, that's a different matchup. So, you know, does the Movie hold up, I think very, very skillfully done, held my interest for all the reasons that you talked about. I also think there's tremendous contemporary relevance. Okay. Because you've got in Lol Bergman, to some degree, Mike Wallace. So it's very interesting to see what happens to the slightly compromised, you know, journalists when they become a big superstar again, the wider corporation. How. This is what it's about. Right. How. How does. How does public service transmission and finding out of information coexist with corporate capitalism? And clearly, you know, in. In all of the various corporations that are. That are depicted. Tremendous faith that lol Bergman has in the integrity and importance of journalism.

[Professor Jeff Dudis]

Yes.

[Professor Stephen Dice]

And. And also that if you get the facts to the American public, it will make a difference. These are currently contested notions.

[Professor Jeff Dudis]

And to the movie's credit, the other protagonist, Wigand, is deeply cynical that a revelation of facts will make any difference at all. They're from totally different corporate cultures. And I think that's why Wigand is from a culture in which he spent his entire career doing research and publishing it and getting it publicized. And as you and I know, that's not a universe that frequently has a lot of major impact or influence on public opinion or public policy. So I think to the movie's credit, it is not allowing Pacino's kind of Pollyannish faith in exposure of the truth to stand uncontested.

[Professor Stephen Dice]

Well, and the resolution of the movie is actually quite dour because Laur Bergman quits because he feels he can't keep his word to sources anymore. And Jeffrey Wigand, of course, also not quit. And it's. It's sort of portrayed as. They kind of went their own way. Well, they both went off to do lower impact things. Right. Jeffrey Wig in. In the same realm of. We have tremendous faith in the power of information getting to a public and making a difference. Public education. Yeah. Wigan goes and he's a teacher and lol Bergman goes and works for pbs. Tremendously worthy careers. One of which, you know, we. We ourselves engage in nowhere near as important or. Or as impactful. Yeah. As what they were both doing previously.

[Professor Jeff Dudis]

Yep.

[Professor Stephen Dice]

You know, and so I do think that there's a lot to say, there's a lot to ponder on the nature of truth and information and public debate in different periods in. In even quite recent American history. You know, Bergman has all this faith in getting the information out. And 60 Minutes reaches a lot of people. And it would be very interesting. Will there be a, you know, 2050 insider that's talking about CBS under Barry Weiss and the litigation about the addictiveness of social media. You know, you could see these same stories playing out.

[Professor Jeff Dudis]

Or the prison story. They got quashed.

[Professor Stephen Dice]

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Okay, good. So here we are then. We are at the point of decision. What are we going to do, Jeff? Because I've My. Well, you tell me. My sense is you want to advance Insider.

[Professor Jeff Dudis]

So I. I think it's a. I think it's probably a closer call than I originally thought.

[Professor Stephen Dice]

Okay.

[Professor Jeff Dudis]

But. But an unenthusiastic close call.

[Professor Stephen Dice]

I.

[Professor Jeff Dudis]

If I. To be perfectly.

[Professor Stephen Dice]

You don't like either of the.

[Professor Jeff Dudis]

You can eliminate them both. I. I would. Because I just think. I think we're going to come across other mov. I mean, are significantly better than both of these.

[Professor Stephen Dice]

Okay.

[Professor Jeff Dudis]

I would give the close call to the insider.

[Professor Stephen Dice]

Okay. So I think we found a decision rule here, which is I win. No. Which. Let me see if this sounds fair to you. I like the Insider and admire it. I think Thief is just a much more important and distinctive piece of work. So because you have a weak preference for Insider over Thief, and I have a strong preference for Thief over Insider, I would like.

[Professor Jeff Dudis]

I'm willing to accept that. Mostly because I'm pretty confident that Thief will lose in the next round against whatever you never can step against.

[Professor Stephen Dice]

Jeff. This is tournament play. One can never tell on any given Sunday. Let me put it this way, in the words of another. Another Al Pacino. Yeah, I don't. My things you get. At my age, things have been taken. Anyway. I won't do that.

[Professor Jeff Dudis]

Let me put it this way. The decision rule may change for the next round of Thief.

[Professor Stephen Dice]

Fair enough. Fair enough. Okay. So on that bombshell, I think Thief advances to the next round. And we will be back next time. What's our next matchup? Geoff?

[Professor Jeff Dudis]

Our next matchup is Manhunter versus Ferrari.

[Professor Stephen Dice]

Wow. That's going to be a cracking matchup. So please leave your comments if you have thoughts on. Were we right to advance Thief? Did we get both these movies wrong? What do you think of this matchup? And until next time,

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