Podcast Summary: New Books Network

Episode: "Great Power, Great Responsibility: How the Liberal International Order Shapes US Foreign Policy"

Guest: Michael Poznansky (U.S. Naval War College)
Host: Eleonora Matiacci (Amherst College)
Date: September 16, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode features a conversation between Professor Michael Poznansky and host Eleonora Matiacci focusing on Poznansky's upcoming book, "Great Power, Great Responsibility: How the Liberal International Order Shapes US Foreign Policy" (Oxford UP, 2025). The book offers a nuanced thesis on how America’s relationship to the liberal international order has shifted across different global power configurations, and how these shifts have influenced everything from intervention strategies to the use of international institutions. Poznansky discusses the origins of the project, breaks down his theoretical framework, methods, empirical findings, and responds to common critiques—providing insight for both academics and policymakers.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Origin of the Book and Initial Puzzle

• Poznansky’s intellectual journey began around 2018 amid a surge in critiques of the liberal international order, especially following the Trump administration and a reactive wave of defenses from pro-liberal order scholars.
• Noted significant debates between "proponents" (e.g., John Ikenberry) and "skeptics" (e.g., John Mearsheimer, Patrick Porter), each capturing part of the story but missing critical nuances.
• Quote:

  "[Both sides] were capturing something real about the world, but missing a lot of the nuances that I had kind of observed in working on research related to military intervention, regime change, and covert action in the past."
  — Michael Poznansky (03:37)

2. Core Theoretical Argument

• The U.S. relationship to the liberal international order is contingent, not static; compliance is shaped by two key factors:
  1. Presence of peer competition: Is there another great power challenging the U.S. for global leadership? (e.g., Soviet Union during the Cold War; China/Russia today)
  2. Burden of compliance: How hard is following the rules of the order, given U.S. security or policy aims?
• Quote:

  "The core argument in this book is that US compliance with the liberal international order...is contingent, rather than either constantly in the realm of violations or constantly in the realm of compliance."
  — Michael Poznansky (06:41)

• Peer competition heightens U.S. sensitivity to reputational costs of violating the order; when no peer competitor exists, the U.S. feels freer to violate or reinterpret norms.

3. Empirical Approach and Methodological Challenges

• The book analyzes nine case studies across three periods:
  • Cold War (peer competition)
  • Transition (late 80s/early 90s)
  • Unipolarity (post-Cold War)
• Each period includes cases where the burden of compliance is high/low, permitting analysis of variation in U.S. behavior.
• Empirical vignettes include U.S. interventions in Panama (1989), the Gulf War (1991), Bosnia, Kosovo, Afghanistan, Iraq, among others.
• Big challenge: Peer competition is a "slow-moving variable," making causal inference tricky; relied on archival research and process tracing to establish patterns.
• Quote:

  "You want to see policymakers, presidents and their senior advisors kind of saying things that you would expect them to say in those periods...you can begin to look for patterns and try to rule out alternative explanations."
  — Michael Poznansky (13:36)

4. Key Findings: Complexity in Transition Periods

• Poznansky was surprised by the "messiness" of transition periods, especially between the Cold War and unipolarity. These periods didn’t map neatly onto clear behaviors.
• Policy decisions during transitions (e.g., Panama, Gulf War, Bosnia) were more complex and ambiguous—neither strictly Cold War nor post-Cold War logic prevailed.
• Quote:

  "Those cases in the book I expected to be a little bit more straightforward...but instead I ended up making them their own chapter. They’re honestly quite messy."
  — Michael Poznansky (09:33)

5. Implications for Policymakers

• The U.S. is now returning to great power competition—the first such reversal after a unipolar period. Policymakers and defense strategists need to recalibrate their tools and expectations.
• Poznansky’s research challenges assumptions drawn from post-Cold War interventionism and humanitarian action, highlighting how reputational and multilateral considerations become more salient in multipolar contexts.
• He also acknowledges the ongoing debate over the value and utility of the liberal international order: critics see it as a vehicle for overreach, proponents as a source of global stability.
• Quote:

  "The way in which US foreign policy manifested in a unipolar moment is not suited to today’s world."
  — Michael Poznansky (18:32)

6. Addressing Misconceptions

• Poznansky wants to correct the idea that all U.S. violations of the order are the same.
• During the Cold War, covert violations and concern for "optics" showed the U.S. was at least constrained by the order, even if not fully compliant. Post-Cold War, policymakers were less concerned about appearances, leading to more overt rule-breaking.
• Quote:

  "Skeptics don’t draw any distinction really between covert violations of liberal international order and overt violations. But I think they’re essential."
  — Michael Poznansky (22:40)

• He draws on Jan Elster:

  "To violate a norm in public shows a disdain that violating a norm in secret does not... violating it in secret signals at least...an acknowledgment that one exists within a broader set of rules and norms."
  — (23:41)

7. Evolution of Poznansky's Thinking

• Writing the book deepened his appreciation for the complexity of "in-between" periods (e.g., decline of USSR, rise of China).
• Became more attuned to the tension between liberal values (human rights, democracy) and rules (sovereignty, non-intervention).
• Quote:

  "That tension, I think, is at the heart of the criticism from the restraint crowd...because it’s both liberal in a real sense and violates some core tenets of the liberal international order."
  — Michael Poznansky (27:24)

8. Current and Future Research

• Two new projects:
  • With Leonard Maschmeyer: Framework for evaluating success and impact of cyber operations—bridging the gap between academic and practitioner perspectives, using the Russia-Ukraine context as a reference. (29:00)
  • On ‘windows of opportunity’: How fleeting advantages shape decisions to use military force; relevance for current U.S. debates over military commitments in Europe and Asia. (31:25)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Contingency of U.S. Rule-Following:

  "US compliance with the liberal international order...is contingent...on the structure of the international system...and the burden of compliance."
  — Michael Poznansky (06:41)

• On Transition Complexity:

  "In the late Cold War and into the early 1990s, policymakers are wrestling with whether the Soviet Union will collapse...and what America’s new role in the world should be."
  — Michael Poznansky (08:37)

• Policy Utility:

  "Even if policymakers aren't wedded to the rules based international order per se, the book shows how...perceptions of compliance and rule following and multilateralism serve the U.S. national interest in kind of surprising ways."
  — Michael Poznansky (19:26)

• Misconceptions:

  "All violations of the liberal international order are not created equal."
  — Michael Poznansky (21:18)

• On Norm Violation and Secrecy:

  "To violate a norm in public shows a disdain that violating a norm in secret does not..."
  — (Jan Elster via Poznansky, 23:41)

Important Timestamps

• 01:35 – Introduction and Poznansky’s background
• 02:35 – Book’s origin story and intellectual context
• 04:20 – Main argument: conditional U.S. compliance
• 07:48 – Surprises: transition periods
• 10:22 – Empirical approach and research design
• 12:44 – Methodological difficulties
• 16:25 – Policy implications and relevance for practitioners
• 20:29 – Key misconceptions and what the book corrects
• 25:04 – How Poznansky’s thinking has evolved
• 28:56 – Current and future research projects

Overall Tone and Language

Conversational but scholarly, with clear attempts by both host and guest to make complex international relations theory accessible and to illuminate real-world stakes. Throughout, Poznansky is forthright about challenges, ambiguities, and the provisional nature of social science in an evolving world order.

Takeaways for Listeners

• Poznansky’s framework helps readers and policymakers understand why and how the U.S. alternately champions or circumvents the liberal international order.
• The nuances between overt and covert norm violations matter for assessing U.S. accountability.
• As the global order shifts, historical patterns—and their differences—offer tangible lessons for today’s foreign policy debates.
• The episode is rich for anyone engaging with debates on American power, multilateralism, and the future of world order.