Episode Overview

Podcast: New Books Network
Host: Renee Garfinkel
Guest: Michal Govrin, author, poet, theater director, and daughter of a Holocaust survivor
Book Discussed: But There Was Love—Shaping the Memory of the Shoah (de Gruyter, 2025)
Release Date: November 12, 2025

This episode explores the creation and purpose of Govrin's new book, a collaborative work reimagining how the Holocaust—referred to here by its Hebrew name "the Shoah"—should be remembered. Rather than framing Jewish history solely in terms of victimhood and sacrifice, the book and research group emphasize resilience, resistance, and the sustaining power of human dignity and love even in the face of atrocity. The conversation examines interdisciplinary approaches to memory, ritual, and transmission, personal family experiences, and implications for Holocaust education amid rising antisemitism.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Significance of "Shoah" vs. "Holocaust"

• [02:27] Host: Why did you choose "Shoah" over "Holocaust" for the title?
• Govrin: The term "Holocaust" carries Christian and sacrificial undertones foreign to Jewish consciousness, potentially mischaracterizing the event as a "total sacrifice."
  • "We stress our objection to that term Holocaust that immediately brings with it false connotations and the gaze of the outsider on the Jewish people." (03:45)

2. Remembrance as Resistance and Resilience

• [04:17] Host: The book urges remembrance rooted in resilience, not victimhood. How is this received?
• Govrin: Survivors themselves stressed the importance of struggle, love, and the will to live, not just despair.
  • "There was love... the knowledge, how to say a word—that was what kept the people alive... this was forgotten because of the ambient Christian legacy..." (05:35)

3. Theology of Memory: Victimhood vs. Struggle

• [06:51] Host: Contrasts between martyrdom and the struggle to persist.
• Govrin: Jewish theology foregrounds human agency and partnership with God in a non-perfect world; Christianity often centers on waiting for salvation.
  • "The Jewish theology gives the power to mankind... while the Christians mostly are waiting to the return of the Savior..." (07:07)

4. The Working Group and Interdisciplinarity

• [08:00] Host: How did a diverse working group shape the project?
• Govrin: Artistic and emotional engagement was essential—music, dance, personal stories—all broke through the "covering over" of wounds and the culture of silence.
  • "Meetings were scholarly and emotionally mixed together. I don't think that you can remember without that dimension." (09:10)

5. Breaking the Early Israeli Silence

• [11:13] Host: How personal family silence affected Govrin
• Govrin: The silence functioned both ways—survivors often weren't heard, and children grew up with indirect knowledge. Processing her mother's experience and her own took decades, culminating in her writing a memoir.
  • "I didn't know that my mother was a Holocaust survivor until I was, I think, nine or 10... The legacy came through very strongly." (12:11)

6. Transmission and the Power of Narrative

• [14:13] Host: On her forthcoming book and family memory.
• Govrin: Fiction and memory are intertwined; giving life to the lost through storytelling is itself an act of survival and meaning-making.
  • "What is memory? What is fiction? ... We have only stories. But these stories make us alive." (14:37)

7. Balancing Memory as Evidence and as Metaphor

• [16:07] Host: How to balance factual and metaphorical memory?
• Govrin: There's no one answer; for her, emotional engagement and transformation are key. History is vital, but emotional truth sustains long-term memory and change.
  • "People may stick to ideology, but beneath it there is life and emotion... I think that we can learn from the Shoah that evil was created by man and there was the heights of the human soul." (17:40-18:45)

8. Developing the Ritual of Hitkansut

• [19:06] Host: What makes Hitkansut different from traditional memorials?
• Govrin: Inspired by the Passover Seder—emphasizes the full spectrum: rich life before the Shoah, destruction, but also survival, resistance, and new beginnings. It invites personal participation and addresses the universality of evil.
  • "In the Hitkansut... we remember the world which was before... we lament... we enumerate many things... but people come out uplifted, not crushed." (20:51-23:50)

9. Love Amidst Darkness: Aaron Appelfeld

• [24:13] Host: Appelfeld's phrase inspired the title. What did he mean?
• Govrin: Appelfeld highlighted everyday acts of love and kindness as the forces sustaining life in impossible circumstances. His work teased out human light amid horror.
  • "Inside the power to write comes not from the visions of death and betrayal, but from the visions of love and humankind." (25:55)

10. Rethinking Holocaust Education Amid Rising Antisemitism

• [26:59] Host: How can public memory and education respond to new challenges?
• Govrin: Traditional narratives centered on victimhood and sacrifice have been co-opted and inverted in public discourse. What’s missing is focus on agency, dignity, and choosing life—a shift needed now more than ever.
  • "If the voice of the survivors—of choosing life, not going into a revenge...—had been heard, we would be in another place." (30:26)

11. Reception of the Book and Ritual

• [31:31] Host: How have Jewish communities received the book and Hitkansut?
• Govrin: The book (now open access) and the Hitkansut ritual are gaining international reach, offering hope for renewed, empowering remembrance.
  • "People were moved and could feel that there is a future of the memory in a constructive and luminous way." (32:30)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the word Shoah vs. Holocaust:
  "We stress our objection to that term Holocaust that immediately brings with it false connotations and the gaze of the outsider on the Jewish people." — Michal Govrin [03:45]
• On resistance and survival:
  "There was despair, there was giving up, and there was also a struggle to survive against the Nazis... there was love... That was what kept the people alive." — Michal Govrin [05:35]
• On trauma transmission and narrative:
  "What is memory? What is fiction? ... We have only stories. But these stories make us alive." — Michal Govrin [14:37]
• On the transformative power of ritual:
  "People come out of that Hitkansut uplifted and not crushed. And uplifting gives you power to go on." — Michal Govrin [23:50]
• On the lesson Appelfeld drew from the Shoah:
  "Inside the power to write comes not from the visions of death and betrayal, but from the visions of love and humankind." — Michal Govrin [25:55]
• On repairing Holocaust education for today:
  "If the voice of the survivors—of choosing life, not going into a revenge...—had been heard, we would be in another place." — Michal Govrin [30:26]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:27] – Shoah vs. Holocaust: Language and theological framing
• [04:17] – Remembrance as resistance/resilience
• [08:00] – Impact of the diverse research group and art
• [11:13] – Breaking silence: family and national, personal narrative
• [16:07] – History, memory, and metaphor
• [19:06] – The ceremony of Hitkansut: structure and philosophy
• [24:13] – Aaron Appelfeld and the centrality of love
• [26:59] – Holocaust education, antisemitism, and public remembrance
• [31:31] – Global reception of the book and ritual

Conclusion

This episode provides not only an exploration of Michal Govrin’s remarkable work in reframing the memory of the Shoah but also a moving meditation on love, storytelling, and the living legacy of survival. The discussion is deeply humane, encouraging listeners to embrace a more nuanced, dignified, and empowering mode of remembrance for the future.