Nancy Hudgins, "Books Good Enough for You: The Storied Life of Ursula Nordstrom" (Abrams Books for Young Readers, 2026)

Summary

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Podcast Summary: New Books Network

Episode Title:

Nancy Hudgins, "Books Good Enough for You: The Storied Life of Ursula Nordstrom" (Abrams Books for Young Readers, 2026)
Host: Mel Rosenberg
Guest: Nancy Hudgins
Release Date: April 4, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this engaging episode of the New Books Network’s Children’s Literature channel, host Mel Rosenberg sits down with author Nancy Hudgins to discuss her debut book, Books Good Enough for You: The Storied Life of Ursula Nordstrom. The conversation covers Nordstrom’s revolutionary influence on children’s literature, the process and challenges Hudgins faced in writing the book, and the personal importance of biographies for children. The episode is a delightful blend of literary history and personal journeys, filled with insights into both Nordstrom's story and the craft of writing for younger readers.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introduction to the Book and Its Genesis

• Title Origin: The book title comes from Ursula Nordstrom's philosophy of creating “books good enough for you” for individual children, reflecting personal attention to readers ([01:24-02:08]).
• Hudgins’ Inspiration: Nancy first became interested in Nordstrom after reading Dear Genius (Leonard Marcus, ed.), admiring Nordstrom’s humor and her persuasive yet supportive approach with authors ([03:33-04:48]).

2. Hudgins’ Personal Journey into Writing

• Childhood Reading Memories: Grew up loving books like Ferdinand the Bull and The House of 60 Fathers, discovering some Nordstrom titles first as an adult ([05:05-06:41]).
• Career Path: Started as a library page, became a lawyer in San Francisco, then a mediator, before shifting towards writing for children in retirement. Emphasizes how different legal writing is from writing for kids ([07:23-10:00]).
• Learning to Write for Children: Hudgins joined the Society of Children’s Book Writers and Illustrators (SCBWI) and took many classes, realizing the steep learning curve ([10:49-11:18]).
• Biographical Writing Passion: Nancy always gravitated towards biographies, especially of "can-do" women, lamenting the historic lack of such stories for girls ([11:22-13:32]).

3. From Interest to Page — Writing about Ursula Nordstrom

• Multiple Attempts & Market Realities: Tried to write picture books about Nordstrom, but market timing and competing titles delayed progress ([13:40-14:56]).
• Finding an Agent & Editor: Met agent Rachel Hoar through an Inked Voices seminar; credits editor Amy Novesky (and later Courtney Code at Abrams) with critical support ([15:16-17:57]).
• Research Process: Deep dives into archives, including the Beinecke Library at Yale, and the importance of not losing research momentum even after setbacks ([15:47-17:57]).

4. Shaping the Book – Decisions, Research, and Messages

• Selection of Authors and Illustrators: Hard decisions on which Nordstrom collaborators to focus on. Some favorites, like Elsa Holmel Minarik (Little Bear), had to be left out for cohesion ([21:29-22:30]).
• Nordstrom’s Editorial Philosophy: Contrasts Anne Carroll Moore’s traditional message-driven approach with Nordstrom’s belief that “the story is the message.” Emphasizes Nordstrom’s openness to ambiguity and complexity in children’s books ([23:18-25:47]).
• Historical Context: Children’s literature in the U.S. was still young when Nordstrom entered Harper’s children’s department in 1936 ([24:29-25:47]).

5. Relevance & Legacy — “Are We in a Post-Ursula Era?”

• Lasting Influence: Discusses whether Nordstrom’s values are still guiding children’s literature or if publishing is returning to older, didactic models. Both express preference for Nordstrom-style storytelling ([27:48-28:52], [30:03-31:14]).
• Working with Editors: Hudgins describes both her editors as modern “Ursulas,” helping to refine her manuscript and champion its strengths ([30:03-31:14]).

6. Behind the Curtain – Editorial Misses and the Human Side of Publishing

• Books That Got Away: Talks about Nordstrom’s initial hesitation with Harold and the Purple Crayon and the unknown about The Very Hungry Caterpillar ([31:14-32:19]).
• Serendipity in Influence: The creative web of inspiration—what leads to doors opening in storytelling, both literally (as in Harold) and metaphorically ([32:19-33:26]).

7. Current and Future Projects

• Upcoming Work: Two projects about librarians, emphasizing their role as “small d” democrats defending access and intellectual freedom ([33:26-34:27]).

8. Favorites from Nordstrom’s Books

• Choosing a Favorite: Picks A Hole is to Dig for its collaborative spirit and illustrations, and I’ll Get There. It Better Be Worth the Trip for tackling complex adolescent themes ([35:21-37:31]).
  • Quote:
    • “I love Syndex drawings...the fact about the scenes of them at Ruth’s house, cutting and pasting and trying different ways and which grouping of kids goes with which definition. And it was a real collaborative book.” — Nancy Hudgins ([35:21])
    • “At one point the main character and another boy kiss, which surprises the hell out of both of them, I think. And it's really skillfully done, but it's a really great story.” — Nancy Hudgins on I’ll Get There. It Better Be Worth the Trip ([37:12])

9. Who Is the Book For?

• Intended Audience: While written for middle grade readers, both agree the book is for anyone interested in children’s lit history—adults included ([39:33-39:35]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On learning to write for children:
  “Writing for judges, it doesn't automatically move over to writing for children. So I had a huge learning curve.” — Nancy Hudgins ([09:03])
• On Ursula Nordstrom’s impact:
  “She basically cajoled her authors and illustrators into doing their best work. And the persuasive part of that, which she also did in a funny way, I just thought was terrific.” — Nancy Hudgins ([03:33])
• On choosing biographies to write:
  “The kind of woman I liked was kind of the can-do type of woman who did something interesting and important.” — Nancy Hudgins ([13:22])
• On editorial vision:
  “The story is the message. It has to be a good story.” — Mel Rosenberg, reflecting Nordstrom’s view ([23:18])
• On gatekeeping and influence:
  “As amazing as Ursula Nordstrom was, she was also a gate. She was also a door. Yes, this is good enough, and this one isn’t good enough.” — Mel Rosenberg ([37:31])

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Key Timestamps

• 01:16 — Nancy Hudgins introduced; book’s imminent release.
• 03:33 — Hudgins discusses inspiration and first encounter with Nordstrom’s work.
• 05:05 — Favorite childhood books; “House of 60 Fathers” and reading experiences.
• 07:23 — Hudgins outlines her career path from law to children's writing.
• 10:49 — The learning curve and joining SCBWI.
• 13:40 — Decision to pursue a Nordstrom biography and publication challenges.
• 15:16 — Meeting agent Rachel Hoar and working with Amy Novesky.
• 21:29 — How Hudgins selected which authors & illustrators to include.
• 23:18 — Moore vs. Nordstrom: The evolution of children’s literature’s messages.
• 30:03 — Editors and mentorship in shaping the book.
• 31:14 — Missed opportunities: books Nordstrom may have passed on.
• 33:26 — Hudgins’s upcoming projects on librarians.
• 35:21 — Choosing a favorite Nordstrom book.
• 39:33 — Book’s intended audience; crossing age groups.

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Closing Thoughts

This episode is a must-listen for writers, educators, and lovers of children’s literature. Hudgins’s clear admiration for both her subject and the craft of writing infuses the conversation with warmth and insight. It provides vital context on why Ursula Nordstrom’s “storied life” continues to ripple through bookshelves and imaginations—reminding us that the real magic of children’s literature lies in stories that respect young readers’ intelligence and emotional depth.

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Transcript

[Narrator]

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[Mel Rosenberg]

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[Nancy Hudgins]

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[Nancy Hudgins]

Welcome to the New Books Network.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Hello to Nancy Hudgins.

[Nancy Hudgins]

Hi, Mel. Thank you so much for having me.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Listen, you know, your book blew me away and we'll talk about it in a minute, but I have to introduce myself. So I'm Mel Rosenberg and I am the host of the Children's Literature channel of the New Books Network. And Nancy, thank you so much for waking up. It's about 8 o' clock in the morning on the west coast where you are. It's toward evening here in Greece where I am stranded meanwhile and wow, your book is coming out next week. It's wonderful. It's called Books Good Enough for your. And what a great title because you've taken it. You've taken it from the woman that it's all about. So would you introduce the book and then we'll talk about your life and Ursula's life and everybody else's life.

[Nancy Hudgins]

Sure. Okay, So I brought it with me. It's coming out on Tuesday. It's called Books Good Enough for you. The Storied life of Ursula Nordstrom, editor of Extraordinary Children's Books. And I don't know about you. I know, Mel, your book just came out.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Oh my goodness.

[Nancy Hudgins]

Last month and only saw Door. And I'm going to ask you this. When your book came out, it's Your first book? It's my first book. Children's book.

[Mel Rosenberg]

I'm much older than you.

[Nancy Hudgins]

Yeah, we talked about that. Barely. So when I saw my name right here, it was such a thrill. And I'm sure the same is true for you.

[Mel Rosenberg]

You know, it was the thrill. But the big thrill for me is getting Emily out there, so. I can't believe you have a copy. That's so kind of you.

[Nancy Hudgins]

Of course I do.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Remind me to sign it the next time we zoom together.

[Nancy Hudgins]

Perfect.

[Mel Rosenberg]

There must be a way to do that here. I'm reaching out my.

[Nancy Hudgins]

Yeah, there you go.

[Mel Rosenberg]

My left handed. Are you left handed, Nancy?

[Nancy Hudgins]

I'm right handed.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Okay.

[Nancy Hudgins]

But, you know, my brother's left handed, so there's that.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Yeah, you're probably left handed and you don't know it. Okay, so what I want to talk to you, first of all. Talk a few minutes about the book, about your editor at Abrams, and about the illustrator and about whatever you want, and then I'll jump in here and there with some questions.

[Nancy Hudgins]

Okay, thank you. Well, I first got interested in Ursula Nordstrom when I read Dear Genius, which Leonard Marcus put together, really, at the turn of the century. And I was just blown away by two things. One is she had such a great sense of humor. And the books that. Or rather the letters that Leonard selected, really showed that. And the other thing that interests me was how she basically cajoled her authors and illustrators into doing their best work. And the persuasive part of that, which was also. Which she also did in a funny way, I just thought was terrific. And so at that time, around that time, I started getting interested in writing for children. And I had a. That didn't last very long, and life intervened, and my children were growing up. And so when I was getting close to retirement, I thought I wanted to do something constructive and that would be fun for me and also intellectually challenging. And so I chose writing for children because I loved to read as a child.

[Mel Rosenberg]

So let me just jump in, because you started to segue to your own biography. So let's go back to Nancy as a child, the children's books that you loved when you were growing up.

[Nancy Hudgins]

Okay, sure.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Well, were they the same ones that appear in the book?

[Nancy Hudgins]

Some do. So Ferdinand the Bull was my favorite children's book. I still have it. And that was not an Ursula book. And the Runway Bunny probably was the first book I knew. Ursula, one of my favorite books of all the ones that I read. And a lot of these books I read as an adult and not as a child. I was growing up in the 50s and 60s. And so some of the books, I was just too old for when they came out. But I've, of course, read them all since. Oh, I'll show you. I brought this book. This is by my dirt De Jong. It's called the House of 60 Fathers. It's an Ursula book. It came out in the 50s, I think. And the pictures are by Maurice Sendak. And I didn't know who he. I didn't know who either of them were at the time, nor did I know about Ursula. But I loved the pictures. Like, here's one. It's about a Chinese boy who essentially gets lost and an American airman. This is around World War II helped him find his parents. They helped each other out. They were both kind of lost. Airmen had been shot down. Anyway, I was in fourth grade when I read that book. And so ultimately I landed on writing for middle grade. And so, yeah, I mean, I just love books. I remember my mother taking me to the downtown public library, the big one. And I would sit in the floor.

[Mel Rosenberg]

In which city?

[Nancy Hudgins]

Richmond, Virginia.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Okay.

[Nancy Hudgins]

And I would sit on the floor and pull out books. And, you know, it's just a wonderful memory. So Ursula was born in New York.

[Mel Rosenberg]

We're not there yet.

[Nancy Hudgins]

Oh, we're still on me.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Okay, we're still on. Nancy, look, you've seen a few or heard a few of my interviews. I'm most interested in the person behind the book, and you're the person behind this book. I know it's about Ursula Nerdstrom and all of the authors that she selected, and so on, or some of them. But tell us more about you. What did you study? What did you do in your career before.

[Nancy Hudgins]

Before? Well, my first job, in which I. Which was not a babysitting job, was as a page in the public library in Roanoke, Virginia, which was essentially a job of shelving books. Not terribly exciting, but at least I got to be in the library. And from there I was in ninth grade. I finished high school. I went to college at Boston University because I'd lived in the south all my life, and I wanted to see something new. I loved Boston. I then came back to Virginia and went to the University of Virginia to law school. And at that point, I realized I could live anywhere I wanted to live, as long as I took that state's bar exam. And my parents were getting a divorce in Virginia. So it seemed like a good time to absent myself. So one of my college roommates lived in San Francisco So I went out to visit her and looked around for jobs and got a job as a lawyer in San Francisco, where I practiced for more than 30 years. And then I started doing mediations. I learned how to be a mediator. Totally different from being a trial lawyer. I mean, 180 degrees different, because a trial lawyer is sort of saddling up and going to. To a big fight for your client, where a mediator is trying to get everybody to come together and come with a solution that works for everybody. So very different approaches, and it required a different mindset, and I enjoyed learning that.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Okay.

[Nancy Hudgins]

And then I was getting close to retirement. Can we come back to where we were? And because I loved reading as a child, I thought that that might be interesting. Now, needless to say, writing for judges, it doesn't automatically move over to writing for children. So I had a huge learning curve. My last English class was in 12th grade because I tested out of it for college. And I took a lot of history in college. And so the only serious class I had for writing after that was in law school, which, as I mentioned, is totally different. So I had a big learning curve. So I talked to friends and they said, you should join scbwi, which I did and started taking a lot of classes in how to write for children.

[Mel Rosenberg]

How did you realize that you needed to learn? Well, because I started writing for kids when I was in my early 20s, and I really thought that all you do is take a pencil and a piece of paper and you write a story.

[Nancy Hudgins]

How hard could it be, Right?

[Mel Rosenberg]

Yeah. And like you say, I mean, I was a scientist, so like, I knew that there was a certain way that you had to write science. Right. Scientific jargon, but I thought there was no Torah, no law, no scripture of, of writing for kids. And it took me almost 40 years until I went to SCBWI and realized how little I knew and how much better everybody else was. So I'm always in awe of people like you who knew from the get go that you had to study, explain.

[Nancy Hudgins]

Well, I probably got good advice from friends of mine. And actually, when I first took a seminar or two, I met some wonderful people who really said, you need to join this organization, you need to learn more about it. And the book that I wrote around 2000, 2001, was really probably pretty terrible. And so I knew I needed help, let's put it that way.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Okay, so you took courses, and then what happened?

[Nancy Hudgins]

Well, as one does, I tried to write several picture books. I thought I would write picture books, not because they were Easier, but because they were shorter, I think. And I tried my hand at that for a number of years. So my goal the whole time was to write biographies because I loved reading biographies as a kid. I think the first book I read

[Mel Rosenberg]

from covering man the Bull is not a biography.

[Nancy Hudgins]

Well, no. Yeah, but I didn't read that one. My parents read it to me. All right, so the first one I read.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Exactly.

[Nancy Hudgins]

Yeah. It was called Abe Lincoln, Frontier Boy. And it was an imagined biography, which I didn't know at the time, you know, would have no idea what that was. And I was in first or second grade. My brother had gotten it for Christmas, and I was sick, sort of lying on the couch. So I thought I'd read it. And then I read it was part of the Childhoods of Famous American series. And I probably read all of those at one time or another. So that's what got me interested. I read a lot of biographies as an adult as well, because I wanted to know how other people lived their life and what was important to them. And trying to figure out as a teenager, as a young adult, how to live my life. So I always wanted to write biographies. And when my kids were growing up, all the biographies. Well, not all of them, but many of the biographies were about men, we'd say. I mean, many, like 90%. So if I'd started at 2000, I could have, you know, ridden that curve up because there's so many more biographies about women and really fascinating biographies. Wonderful biographies about women. So I was writing about women who. And the kind of woman I liked was kind of the can do type of woman who did something interesting and important. And so that's kind of what I narrowed it down to. So the courses I was taking were mostly nonfiction courses.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Okay, but was there a moment when you said, oh, my goodness, Ursa Nordstrom, there aren't middle grade books. I'm going to do it.

[Nancy Hudgins]

It was more backdoor than that. So I started. So when I started seriously thinking about writing for children, which was about 10 years ago, I got out Dear Genius Again and read it again because she was writing to authors and illustrators. And I thought I could learn something, which I did. And so I tried to write a picture book about her. In fact, I tried to write two different picture books about her, neither of which sold. And I wrote about Annie Glenn, which hasn't sold. And I wrote about. Well, actually, I should say one of the drawbacks of writing biography is that if somebody beats you to the punch, to a publisher, you're pretty much Dead in the water. Because publishers aren't going to write or aren't going to probably, at least for a new writer, are not going to say, oh, let's just take a chance on Nancy and where this other established writer has written a book. So I wrote two books like that. One was on Ursula before Beth Kepper's book came out, and one was on Sandra Day o'. Connor. And the week before my agent was sending it out, it's announced that that book is out. So not batting a thousand.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Your agent, Rachel Hoar.

[Nancy Hudgins]

Yes. Wonderful.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Many of her. She's wonderful. Many of her clients have been on this show. And I'm going to pester her for an interview.

[Nancy Hudgins]

Yeah.

[Mel Rosenberg]

And I will do that today. Rachel, come on. How did you find Rachel?

[Nancy Hudgins]

I found Rachel through Inked Voices, which is an online community of writers. And she was doing a picture book nonfiction picture book seminar, which I took. But at the time that I met her, through that, I had already written the book proposal for books. Good enough for you. Because very earlier on I had met Amy Novesky, who was the editor at Cameron Kids and also.

[Mel Rosenberg]

And to whom dedicated the book.

[Nancy Hudgins]

Yes. Because I'm not sure there'd be a book if it weren't for Amy. But we'd met at a conference and we were just talking up a storm about Ursula Nordstrom. I tried to write. It was a picture book, I think, of Ursula Nordstrom that I took there. And I knew I wasn't there. She, of course, knew I wasn't there. And so I couldn't find a way in. I did more research. So ultimately she had looked at a couple of my Ursula Nordstrom tries. And then Beth Kephart's book came out. So here I'd done a lot of research. I'd gone to the Beinecker Library at Yale several times, and I didn't want to just lose it all, all of the research. And I really enjoyed reading about Ursula, reading about all these artists and authors. So about that time, I noticed that Cameron Kiss started to publish middle grade books. They'd just done picture books up to then. So I approached her and said, would you be interested in a middle grade book on Earthling? She said, yeah. And I said, okay, so what do I need to do so that your company would seriously consider it? So in essence, she said, write a book proposal. So I went online trying to figure out how to write a book proposal. I read some books on how to write book proposals, and it didn't make sense to me until I saw a guy I think on YouTube, say it's like you're pitching a venture capitalist or like, shark tank. You have the intellectual property, you have the idea, but you can't afford to make it happen. So you go to the people who can't afford to make it happen and you team up with them. So I wrote the book proposal and really in pretty short order. Cameron Kiz was an imprint, I guess of Abrams at the time, and so they acquired the book. Then I had to write it. Exactly. Yeah.

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[Mel Rosenberg]

Yeah, you know, you get the yes answer and then there's this oy vey moment. Okay, Exactly One of the things. So, first of all, I want to say a few words about this book. It's wonderful, everybody listening to this interview, who's interested in kidlit, who is an author, illustrator, upcoming aspiring. It has to get hold of your book. It's a middle grade book. It's also a book for people like me, and it's written so well and it really is a delight.

[Nancy Hudgins]

Thank you.

[Mel Rosenberg]

And what I want to know, I mean, I'm assuming tons of research and traveling to libraries all over, including Niagara Falls, of all places.

[Nancy Hudgins]

Oh, that was online, but yes.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Ah, okay. Thank God for that.

[Nancy Hudgins]

Yeah, yeah.

[Mel Rosenberg]

You know, because I'm from Canada and

[Nancy Hudgins]

the Niagara Falls Canada. Exactly. Yeah, yeah.

[Mel Rosenberg]

So what did you learn from the book that you didn't know from writing the book?

[Nancy Hudgins]

Well, I learned how to write a book. A friend of mine. Who.

[Mel Rosenberg]

You sure did.

[Nancy Hudgins]

Thank you. A friend of mine who's a middle grade author said, well, basically you're writing a book to learn how to write a book, which is kind of how it turned out.

[Mel Rosenberg]

But it's a lot of work. It's so much work. Oh, I'm just looking at it and thinking, how many. And you covered so many authors and illustrators and books, it was hard to

[Nancy Hudgins]

pare it down to just these authors. I mean, there's so many more.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Name one that didn't get in.

[Nancy Hudgins]

Elsa Holmlin Minarik, who wrote the Little Bear stories illustrated by Maurice Sendak. I loved them when I was a kid. And so I did write a chapter about her. And it was different than all the other chapters because it was the first I can read book that Harper put out. And so Ursula spent a lot of time and researching, including convening focus groups of early readers, first and second graders, and what worked and what didn't work. And so where you put stuff on the page, where you put the illustrations, the size of the type, all of that. And I got so into the weeds and all of that that it was a totally different chapter than the other chapters and the others like, no. So I had to give that one up. But I did enjoy learning about it.

[Mel Rosenberg]

So, I mean, you have some favorites there. I mean, like, she just hit so many home runs and not only with Marie Sendak, who might be her Babe Ruth, but Charlotte's Web and the Carrot Seed and Crockett Johnson and of course his wife, Ruth Cross, and so many others. Wow. It's just remarkable.

[Nancy Hudgins]

It's staggering, really. And there were other editors at the time and other books like Ferdinand, et cetera, coming out But I don't think there's as much known about them. And Leonard's book put Ursula out there. And so that's who I decided to write about.

[Mel Rosenberg]

I want to talk for a minute about Lismore and this thing that picture books in particular have to. The message has to be out front. Whereas Ursula taught and practiced that the. The story is the message. It has to be a good story. But this idea. When I walk into the library now, which I did in New York a few weeks ago, I still find Ms. Moore there. She hasn't disappeared. There's a lot of stories where the message is staring you right in the face. A few words about that and. Of course. But she did cause a revolution in having books that don't end so well, perhaps. Or that the message is not necessarily clear, or it's not Kitty Two Shoes or whatever it is. What are your thoughts about this, Nancy? I'm sorry, more against the Nordstrom here.

[Nancy Hudgins]

Right. So this is. This is a book about history. And children's books in the United States were fairly new by the time Ursula landed at Harper, which is in 1936. And so they tended to be about Goody Goody children. And, you know, they taught lessons.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Goody Two shoes. That's the word I was.

[Nancy Hudgins]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And they really were. Or they could be about fairy tales or folk tales or whatever, but the message was, you know, be a good girl, be a good boy. And so they were kind of telling kids how to live. And Ursula, I don't think, was a good girl. And so she didn't think much of that. Now, the thing about Moore is that Moore was the undisputed expert at the time. I mean, she started the children's department at the New York Public Library. She talked the library into opening the children. Because in the early 1900s, you had to be 14 to get the library.

[Mel Rosenberg]

She was the renegade in her own life. Yes.

[Nancy Hudgins]

That children deserve books and really pushed for it. And was one of the creators of the American Library Association's children's division. But she kind of got older and set in her ways. And who is this young woman coming in thinking she could do this? And also, there's kind of a progressive education thrust, which is demonstrated by bank street, the school in Greenwich Village in New York, to write about the here and now. I mean, write about what kids know about. And many of the people who Ursula edited either went to bank street or were influenced by Bank Street. And so it wasn't what Ms. Moore wanted. And so there's a lot of drama in that. And at first, in my first draft, I had totally taken Ursula's side in all the drama. And at that time Amy Novesky said we can't really be too harsh on more. And so I went back and, and tried just to talk about all the good things she had done because no one's one sided. But I think from the beginning Moore had it in for Harper because she even gave Virginia Kirkus, the first children's department head at Harper, a hard time. So hard to know is there?

[Mel Rosenberg]

I'm really like, I'm late to come to this field. As am I, as you know. But when I read your book, I'm thinking about, oh my goodness, I am in some sense or my writing in some sense is a second or third generation Ursula.

[Nancy Hudgins]

I'm sorry, say that again, Mel.

[Mel Rosenberg]

My writing is second generation or third generation Ursula. My writing is inspired by the kind of books that she promoted and published.

[Nancy Hudgins]

Sure.

[Mel Rosenberg]

And you know, the homage that you've paid her is remarkable. I'm wondering now just this is your take on this. Are we in a post Ursula era or not?

[Nancy Hudgins]

I hope not. I hope not. We need more than we saw door books.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Thank you. But I mean, shouldn't like, you know, you could make the argument that Ursula, at a certain period in her life, she became also a little dogmatic in what works and what books good enough for you are. Is that possible?

[Nancy Hudgins]

Well, I may not be the best person to talk to that because I'm still in the 20th century book world. So I haven't.

[Mel Rosenberg]

But you wrote the book because after reading your book, I see that a lot of books are still Ms. Moore putting the message up front or motivated by some external marketing, political, some extraneous external force which I personally don't like because I like in the kids book to be a kid's book. And then of course you have books that don't have to tell a nice story. I Want My Hat Back, which is a classic unclassic. And if it teaches kids anything at all, it's to eat rabbits who steal your hat. And I think that's a wonderful book. So on the one hand I'm in awe after reading the other, I'm perplexed now I really don't know what's going on. Is there another Ursula Nerdstrom in the world? Or maybe have we come to a point where we don't need one editor who pushes the way forward for childrenkind?

[Nancy Hudgins]

Well, I was fortunate to have two Ursula Nordstrom's as editors. Amy Novesky who I've mentioned. And then in the midst of writing the book proposal, Abrams sort of subsumed Cameron Kiddz. And Amy went off to do things, other things she wanted to do. And so Courtney Code became my editor. And Courtney is fabulous, too. I mean, I learned so much from both of these women. They're smart, they know what they're doing. I don't know what I'm doing. And so it was great to listen to their advice and why they would suggest things. But I do think. I mean, I'm with you. I like the Ursula type books, too. And for instance, Corey Derfeld, the Rabbit Listened is kind of a quiet book, but I'm a former mediator, so it's a wonderful book for me. Yeah. So I prefer that type of book, I guess. But even Travis Yonker and the picture books that. That he's done with collage and Blue Floats Away and some of his other books, they can be inspiring as well.

[Mel Rosenberg]

I'm also intrigued by the ones that the editors miss. Did Ursula write any letters about the ones that she missed? I mean, I know there's one in your book that she eventually agreed to a few words about that, but did she miss any big ones?

[Nancy Hudgins]

I could never find out in my research whether she missed the Very Hungry Caterpillar. I just didn't find enough on it to know for sure. So I didn't put it in the book. But editors have their own taste, too. And for whatever reason, at whatever early stage of the book she saw, she may have passed on it. And I talk in the book about her not passing, but her having to pause and think about Harold and the Purple Crayon. And, you know, she just didn't get it at first, but then she did and of course talked him into doing many Crockett Johnson into doing many more Harold books.

[Mel Rosenberg]

And of course, in the Emily saw theor she draws her own door.

[Nancy Hudgins]

I saw echoes of.

[Mel Rosenberg]

But, you know, I have two. You saw echoes of Harold, but it wasn't Harold, not at all, that I was inspired by. And this has to do with this whole thing. You know, it's not one book, and that's what you portray so well. It's like a thought process, this idea of being able to open your own door. I was inspired by 1946 Disney Animation, and I have a feeling, I have no support for this, that Crockett Johnson was inspired by the same movie, 1946, which is called all the Cats Join In. And in that, the illustrator becomes part of the animation process. That's a trope that. That didn't originate with Crockett, of course, not with me, but still a wonderful one. What are you working on these days?

[Nancy Hudgins]

I have two projects about librarians. I feel like in the world we live in now, librarians are on the cutting edge, and they shouldn't have to be on the cutting edge of politics. But in some ways they are. But they are really. I see them as small D Democrats because the Library Bill of Rights is all about access and having books for everybody to read. And the librarians I know personally believe in that, too. And in reading about, again, 20th century librarians, I find that not only are they known for just amazing different things, but as you start reading about them, they did everything else too, to bring books to more people. So I've got a middle grade project and a picture book project about librarians. So working on those.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Fantastic. What? Didn't I ask you?

[Nancy Hudgins]

Didn't you ask me?

[Mel Rosenberg]

I know what I didn't ask you. Nancy, what is your favorite among the books that you talk about in your book?

[Nancy Hudgins]

Yeah, that's hard. I mean, that's like, who's your favorite child?

[Mel Rosenberg]

Sometimes I ask those questions.

[Nancy Hudgins]

I have to choose lots of them. Choose one.

[Mel Rosenberg]

In the previous iteration of this interview, which was called you'd've got Mel, interviewees had to sing Beatles songs, and you would have to choose a Beatles song and sing it. And how can you choose your favorite Beatles song? So I'm just gonna ask.

[Nancy Hudgins]

Don't ask me to sing. I mean, you got CZ Levinson to sing, but don't ask me to not do that.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Okay, but I'm gonna force you to pick one. I know it's an oi.

[Nancy Hudgins]

Can I pick a picture book and a middle grade book? Can I pick two?

[Mel Rosenberg]

Yeah, but pick one first.

[Nancy Hudgins]

All right, I'll pick a hole is to dig. Because I love Syndex drawings. I love the definitions that. That Ruth Krause found talking with kids. I love the whole fact about the scenes of them at Ruth's house, cutting and pasting and trying different ways and which grouping of kids goes with which definition. And it was a real collaborative book. And in fact, Crockett Johnson got in on that too. Yeah. So I just think, actually Harper is going to reprint it this summer or fall.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Fantastic. But I mean, you're also in love with the story. Story of the story.

[Nancy Hudgins]

Yes. Yeah. And all of these are wonderful, I think.

[Mel Rosenberg]

And again, it's not a book about cleaning behind your ears, and it doesn't have a normal story. Arc. And it's still loved for, I don't know, 60 years. How many more? 60 or 70 years. And what other book did you want to pick? Okay, I'll go along with it.

[Nancy Hudgins]

Oh, man. Well, I would pick different ones for different reasons. I thought that John Donovan's book, I'll Get There, It Better Be Worth the Trip, was a wonderful book. It was his first book as well. And at one time he was saying to Ursula, I don't know, is this good enough in essence? And she was like, john, it's the best book you could write today. You know, you've put all your work into it. And that kind of gave me some comfort, too, on my first book. But it's a wonderful story. In fact, Charlotte DeSalto said it was a boy and dog story. It was a boy and boy story. It was a parent and boy story. I mean, it has lots of elements in it. And at one point the main character and another boy kiss, which surprises the hell out of both of them, I think. And it's really skillfully done, but it's a really great story.

[Mel Rosenberg]

I will tell you one of the things that came to me during reading this book is that such an important aspect of our lives, what I think, I mean, everybody I interviewed or talked to grew up on picture books. And as you say, it's maybe, I don't know, a little bit over a century old in North America. And still how much these picture books have changed our lives and everybody else's. And yet at a given time, there could be one or two or just a handful of people and they decide what kids get to read. And as amazing as Ursula Nordstrom was, she was also a gate. She was also a door. Yes, this is good enough, and this one isn't good enough. That's what I thought about when I was reading it. Is there such a thing as a perfect door? And finally, I'm going to ask you about your door. I have this theory that we write for our younger selves. So if I was right in your case, how old is the Nancy Hudgens that you are writing to and why?

[Nancy Hudgins]

Probably fourth or fifth grade, nine or ten or something like that. I think it's when I really started reading all the time. Before then, your parents are reading to you, your teachers are reading to you, and you're reading some books that are not very complicated. But about that time, I really got the bug to read all the time. And I clearly remember the library when I was in fourth grade, fifth grade, I was in a different School. I clearly remember that library. And so I would say probably that would be the age.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Fantastic. So listen, Nancy, is my younger sister, a youngster, just breaking into the literary scene with a blockbuster. Can I call it a middle grade?

[Nancy Hudgins]

Yeah, it's a middle grade biography.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Okay. But it also isn't, you see, because it's. And this also goes to Sendak and many of the other people in your story. These are picture books in middle grade that traverse all the age groups, as I believe a good story should. And I hope that adults are going to read this and kids and I can't wait to interview you again when your next book comes out. As the Jews say, we should be so healthy.

[Nancy Hudgins]

Well, and I hope that we get to read in real life, get to meet in real life so we can sign each other and way before my next book comes out.

[Mel Rosenberg]

So that would be great. That would be great. So, Nancy Hudgens, you are celebrating again. Hold it up.

[Nancy Hudgins]

Books Good Enough for you.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Books Good Enough for you by Nancy Hudgens, which is the story of Ursula Nordstrom and the marvelous books that she chose and nurtured and edited that are

[Nancy Hudgins]

still dear to us after 50, 60, 70, 80 years. Goodnight, Moon. 80 years.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Yeah. So good night, Nancy. Actually, it's good morning on the west coast. And good night, Mel. And to all of our listeners and viewers, I'm Mel Rosenberg, the host of the Children's Literature Channel of the New Books Network. And I've gone out of my comfort zone because, Nancy, when you approached me with a middle grade book, so many words,

[Nancy Hudgins]

but I had the right hook. I think I told you that many were pictures.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Susie. Yeah.

[Nancy Hudgins]

And Susie. Yeah. The gateway drug. Susie.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Yeah. So I'm so glad that I bit your hook.

[Nancy Hudgins]

Well, thank you so much for having me.

[Mel Rosenberg]

It's a brilliant book. Congratulations to you, to Amy and to Abrams, and I hope it does super, super well. And we talk again soon.

[Nancy Hudgins]

I hope so. Take care.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Thanks so much.

[Nancy Hudgins]

Yeah. Bye.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Bye.