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- [00:01]
A
Welcome to the New Books Network.
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B
Hello, I'm Dan Hill.
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C
And I'm Julie Annixter. And this is Real Transformations, where we talk about change from the inside out.
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B
Because real transformations aren't just business strategies. They're human journeys, too, filled with hope that can either be leveraged or lost.
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C
And today we're really excited to talk to someone who embodies one of the most practical human approaches to leadership and change that I've ever seen, Susan McKenty Brady. Susan is a leadership educator, an executive coach, a bestselling author, and the founding CEO of the Simmons University Institute for Inclusive Leadership, where she also holds the Deloitte Ellen Gabriel Chair for Women in Leadership. She's called, accurately, a global voice on human centered Accountability. Accountability Forward Leadership. And she has advised executives at more than 500 organizations worldwide. She has a new book, all the Six Leadership Actions to Bridge Perspectives, Strengthen Teams, and Create Value, which is coming out this July and was co authored with Stuart Kleiman and General Leslie C. Smith. Susan, welcome.
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A
Thank you for having me.
- [01:14]
C
Well, we are delighted. And we're just gonna start by asking, why did you write this book?
- [01:18]
A
Oh, gosh, we could just talk about this the entire time. You know, I think we weren't. We human beings haven't been taught how to navigate all of the seen and importantly unseen differences. And so we were thrown together in organizational life. You know, I think the entrance of women was disruptive. The entrance of now five generations in the workplace is disruptive. The biggest disruption, I think, of all time in the workplace is, you know, artificial intelligence. So now human beings have to sort of figure out the delta between human intelligence and artificial intelligence. I mean, differences everywhere, whether you see it, know it, or not see it, and know it. And what. What I became clear about, about 10 years ago in my quest to help organizations who were dedicated to advance women because they realized they couldn't compete. It was. It was a talent, it was issue. Their women weren't rising into positions of leadership and they wanted to fix that. What I realized is none of us, women or men or any identity, really have the foundational skills to navigate when difference shows up in the room. And it often isn't visible, actually. It's often things like, your relationship with Risk is a lot different than mine. Your introverted mind wants to think before you speak. My extroverted mind wants to play. Play it out as I talk. Right. So all of this we're just unprepared for. So what do we do? And it was leaving a lot of, I think Cost and value depletion and the opportunity for value creation on the table.
- [03:05]
C
And just as a follow up to that, Dan, and then I'll toss it over to you, I think that one of the most interesting ideas in the book is that difference. The differences that you say are so natural and we have between us are an untapped source of value. But the key is leadership. So difference doesn't create value on its own. Duh. But leadership does. So we're really interested in going deeper there. And I'm going to toss it over to Dan to ask you the first kind of go deep question.
- [03:32]
B
Well, you mentioned these six target actions, and one of them is know yourself. And it strikes me that executives don't always. They might think that's a bit soft and they don't slow down and take the chance to reflect. So I'm really interested in what kind of exercises, tools, ways in which you get them to do that, and maybe even the relationship a bit to role models, because both Julie and I are really interested in the idea that by looking at others and learning from them, you can learn about yourself.
- [04:00]
A
Yeah. So I'll tell you the truth. The first target action was know yourself, which started with really investing and understanding what your strengths and talents are and importantly what they aren't, and returning to respect when you get thrown off. And we ended up, through the help with our editor Jeff at Harvard, and our literary agent Dania Dickerson, we ended up turning that into two different target actions and going much, much deeper into both because we really wanted people to understand that, you know, that if you don't have self awareness, you can't create value from difference. You're going to have a hard time creating value from your team. And so one practical example is actually something we created through our research here at the Institute for Inclusive Leadership at Simmons, which is around our work on best self. So the way we define best self is where do your character strengths and attributes collide come into concert with where you're called to add value, and where does that come into concert with what brings you energy? And knowing what I call the best self trifecta. Knowing when you lose track of time, when you're using your strengths and talents in service of others and you're left net energized is an important thing to know because leaders will bias their time there and not sometimes do what the team needs or what other people or fill in the blanks or ensure that somebody else is tending to something that maybe they won't. So that's just A practical start. And I can certainly go on to talk about the fulcrum, I think, of leading all the difference, which is returning to a place of respect, if you'd like, but I want to.
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B
No, one of the things I've noticed is that CEOs are good at bringing in a winged person sometime who helps cover or augment where they're a bit in danger.
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A
Yeah. Yeah, very much so. What? Were you going to say something, Julie?
- [06:06]
C
Well, I love this phrase, return to respect when it matters most. And, you know, one of your co authors is an army general. And my experience of working with the US military has been profoundly wonderful. And to me, that's a culture where they really do operate on respect. So I'd love to hear a little bit more about that target activity.
- [06:26]
A
Well, interesting thing about the military, you know, the things that Stu and Les and I, we're sort of the very embodiment of all the difference. The three of us, we have very different backgrounds. We show up very differently in the world. And to be honest, I think Stu would agree we both had a little bit of a bias about. Well, sure, you know, when it's command control culture, you know, you can command respect. And Les has said it's actually quite the opposite, that, you know, in the military, just like in organizational life, you gotta win the hearts and minds of the people who you need to follow. And in his world, it was foxhole. Like, this is a person who is gonna jump and save your life, or you're gonna jump in front of them and save theirs. So they have to feel cared for. And so falling out of respect happens, I think, in the moment. And it happens in one of two ways, oftentimes for oneself or about another. So for oneself, anytime we meet a moment where we say something that someone challenges us on, or we realize we made a mistake, or we're just feeling vulnerable because we haven't done something before, we will often. It'll often induce feelings of imposter feelings of not good enough feelings of that challenge our worthiness. And if we don't bring ourselves back to a place of respect for who we are and what we do bring to the table, we're apt to under, sort of under penetrate the opportunity before us. Not speak up, you know, not show up fully, not make our presence count at the end, conversely. And it's easier to be sort of, I think, in the trap of feeling out of respect for another, but not thinking that's what it is. So if you are thinking, why would he say that? I can't believe she did that again. You know, it's a general. They don't need to be here. They're not really needed on this team. It's a general dismissiveness, and it's deeply disrespectful of someone else's contribution. And so, you know, that doesn't feel bad to the person who feels it about another, but it sure feels bad to other people. And so nothing else. After creating the intelligence of difference, or what we call difference intelligence, walking the talk and practicing difference intelligence, nothing else. You can't do it if you can't stand in respect or actively work to get back into respect with yourself or another human being.
- [08:53]
C
Because, I mean, tell me if I'm wrong, but people can feel it no matter what you say.
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A
Oh, boy, oh, boy. You don't have to say a word. You don't have to say a word. If you don't think someone else matters or their opinion counts or you don't agree with them, you can feel it off of them.
- [09:08]
B
You know what? Well, contempt is the most reliable indicator that a marriage will fail. So you can easily apply that principle to any other relationship.
- [09:16]
A
Yeah, I've learned to so many people. It's so funny that you say contempt. So many people have a different relationship with contempt or harshness or judgment or criticism because they feel it's so extreme. And what I've spent a lot of time and I'd say the red thread with my books have all been about harshness and how it really is a deal killer to have a relationship, a healthy one with yourself or certainly a healthy one with anyone else. And that goes home to work. Work to home.
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B
Yeah. Well, it's essentially the opposite of trust. So you're just. It's just so corrosive to go there.
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A
So I'd like to create a healthy allergy to.
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C
I love it. That would be great. I had a mentor, an amazing man. You may have read his book, the Creative Priority. Jerry Hirshberg. He was the head. He founded Nissan Design. And in the book, the first chapter, the second chapter is. Is creative abrasion. And it's the idea that whatever human beings are together, there's friction. And the point is it can either burn you, scorch you, or you can use it like light to illuminate. And his action, if you will, was let it be there. Don't try to solve for everything in the moment. And yet, as I read your target actions and the landmines, what I found here, Susan, back to this is so practical. Are ways to deal with that friction. So can you just talk about the other target actions quickly? So we've kind of got all.
- [10:48]
A
Of course. So first of all, I just want to echo what you just said. Call it friction, call it tension, call it strife. I think it's the daily reality of work and life. Okay. However it shows up, and it's going to show up differently for different people, what brings tension for you may not bring tension for me. So look, we've taken the wisdom and we've talk to brilliant leaders who we feature in the book, and we've combined our near 90 years of leadership experience and research and created these six target leadership actions. But essentially leaders with difference intelligence. Do they understand themselves? They regulate themselves under pressure. So that's the return to respect. They're real about what's hard. So they activate honesty by modeling it themselves. They interrupt what know certainty and expand perspectives by asking, what am I missing? That is really perspective building. They create trust and shared purpose and belonging by asking other people to bring in other people's perspectives as well. So we model the way. And then lastly, you know, to turn insight and connection into meaningful action means we hold ourselves accountable and we hold other people accountable. And we can't ask other people or expect other people to do what we are unwilling to model. And so, you know, that's really the gist of it. And I think the application of these practices happen many times just in the moment. In the moment, sure.
- [12:23]
B
So you mentioned certainty, and I was intrigued because you have this term, landmines. I know one of your offices is in the military, after all. So there's certainty, there's inconsistency, there's reactivity and justification. You mentioned that certainty and frustration sometimes go together. I'd be curious to have you unpack that. But also, if the other three landmines have a particular emotion that might apply to them and why?
- [12:48]
A
Well, you know, the whole book could just be about the landmines. And we discovered the landmines almost by accident because as we worked through the remedy, we found the same things would trip you up right In. In returning to respect or in activating honesty, the same thing.
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B
Or blow you up, as the case may be.
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A
Or blow you up, as the case might be. And yes, we did. You know, I remember the day I called Les and I said, les, you know, do all landmines, if they're detected, can they all be deactivated? He was like, yep. And I thought, huh, okay, this is interesting. Could we use this as a metaphor and he immediately started riffing over how absolutely, in fact, the. The recon needed is also moment to moment. And this is where it's an equal level playing field. So the three of us might geek out on the topics we're talking about and done a lot of our own transformation and inner work and work with people who have it. It doesn't matter. We're as likely to potentially step on a landmine. So we have to stay aware. So let me go to your second question first about the emotion of these. So, you know, just yesterday I was challenged at a thought, and I really wanted to prove that I was right. And that's when I kind of pushed a timeout on myself and thought, oh, gosh, you know what? And I wanted to prove that I was right, essentially because I was having an emotional reaction to being challenged in the first place. And, and a quick cousin to doing the proving I was right is to justify my own behavior. So I, I was certain that what this person was challenging me on, and he didn't just challenge me, he said, you know, that this word is not used anymore and we're not supposed to use it. And I was like, I have very different data about that. Right. So my proclivity is to, you know, advocate. My point of view is to not ask questions is to defend, deny, or abort, which is I lean back and I'm like, these are the quit. But stayers. I'm just going to quit this conversation because it's futile. All of those emotions play out when we feel challenged by tension, when we feel overtly or covertly dismissed or challenged. And so all of it is emotional to say, you know, and I could say a lot more about each landmine that I want to just blend back into the conversation.
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B
Yeah, no, let's let Julie come back in here.
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C
Yeah. Dan and I were talking earlier, Susan, and in our experience, we've both spent a lot of time in all kinds of institutions and organizations. It seems that teams have less and less time to even talk to each other and have dialogue. You know, can you talk a little bit about the state of the workplace that you see now and what, you know, if I'm a new leader or I'm a new team leader. And I want to, you know, develop some of these, some of the resilience that you talk about. What should I be doing?
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A
Well, first things first, I want to know you. I want to know you and you as an individual first. And I want each of us to know each other. What do we bring to the table? Each of us. And I want you to have the opportunity to answer that for yourself. And so that's where I start. And then a time to come together. So I'll give you a real example. My poor team. I try to practice here at the Institute all the things that we come up with and teach, including how to, you know, return to a place of thriving and best self. We call it best self leadership. And we instituted a morning SCRUM during the pandemic. 30 minutes every morning where we just came together and checked in. We've kept that. We are now down to once a week. But the first part of SCRUM is just going around and saying, how are you personally? What's up in your life? And everybody has the opportunity to share one, two or three things that they just want to share, whether it be a hardship or. But it's a connective move. That's the connected leader has connections because we let people in and then we move to what are your priorities? So I would say the intentional act of taking time to connect, even in a world where we have less time. So we do this. I mean, I have a small team, but we do this in a half an hour and we go around lightning round. But it's a moment to see one another as human beings before we get off to the races as resources to get the job done. And I think oftentimes in our need to get things done fast, we start to treat our teammates like resources as opposed to human beings.
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C
I love that quote in one of your talks that human resources are not human beings.
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A
Right. I mean, they're two different things. They're two different things. When I talk about returning to respect, you know, I gotta acknowledge, like, we all have worked with resources, human resources who we don't think are the right resource for the job, but how are we holding them as human and making them feel. I mean, you can even fire people pretty damn respectfully, you know, like, because you don't mix up these two things. You're valuable and have unbelievable strengths. And I see this and it's maybe not the right fit for what we need, but you are not the wrong fit as a human. I think that's lost and needed, you
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B
know, I like that a lot. I remember once I was offered a job or I wanted a job, I thought it was Pillsbury and the guy said, you'd be fabulous in this job, but I can tell you in two years, you will have blown through it and you'll be bored. And so it might seem cruel, but I'm going to actually turn you down for this job because I know you're going to find a better fit elsewhere. It was a very human rejection, and I appreciated how he did it very much.
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A
Oh, so honoring. Yeah.
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C
You know, we really want to help people, have real transformations happen. Not just, you know, words on paper or PowerPoint decks or, you know, slogans, but to actually make. And they could be small or enterprise wide. So I'm curious. You had some great stories in the book. Is there one that stands out to you that just exemplifies being able to use the target actions?
- [18:53]
A
I mean, every single one of them. But I will tell you, I just talked to him last week. He's just such a cool guy. We feature a story by former Disney executive Dwan Rivers, who had many roles at Disney during his tenure there. I met him at Animal Kingdom when he was the president. And the reason we became friends is because I was giving a talk for International Women's Day, and it was being broadcast around the world, so 60,000 people were tuning in, and there was like 3,000 people there. And he's my executive host in the green room, and we're just, you know, bantering. And he says to me, do you have a favorite movie? And I was like, oh, you know, the Lion King? And he said, do you have a favorite? Do you have a favorite, you know, Animal? And I said, I love Simba. And, you know, that pass. We went on to talk about other things. I give my keynote, I get off the stage, and he's holding this giant stuffed Simba. And I was like, okay, you are magical. But I do think this is the Disney way. So fast forward, or rather go back to a time when Disney decided to get into the cruise line business, and they actually merged with a classic maritime culture in another ship, like another cruise line that was very steeped in protocol and operational precision and safety discipline and maritime tradition. Well, Disney culture is all about the guest experience, all about emotional connection, creating the magic. Right? Attention to detail. So essentially, how do we safely and efficiently operate a ship? Met. How do we create extraordinary guest experience? And Disney was losing money, like, millions of dollars a day. And Duan was sent in after months and months of trying to get these two worlds to work together. And he and the team spent several months on both and essentially created a new culture that honored both. And he tells the story in the book, and he really does embody all of the target actions. And frankly, I think he was able to spot some people suffering from stepping on landmines and call it now of Course he didn't have the language to this, but part of what my co authors and I are trying to do with this book, and thank you for asking, I have 21 other stories I could tell you. We had all day, but part of what we're trying to do is take out the age old sort of the artist, that person who just everyone loves to work for because they feel seen and valued and they give of extra effort and they create great results. And I think I've spent my career wanting to decode that for the people who just don't show up like that. Right. And so we've created this methodology and a language and I hope some meaningful behaviors that you can talk with others about and spend time reflecting about so that you can create better results with your team and navigate, I would say, an array of complexity, array of complexity leaders are facing today with all of the difference.
- [22:04]
C
Well, you know, it's not easy to do and Dan and I both know that we spend a lot of times with teams, a lot of friction, a lot of, you know, sometimes tears and fears. You know, there's so much fear right now in the workplace because of AI, because of everything going on in the world. And it does strike me that what's different about your book is its practicality. And there's a sense of this has worked. And here are things that I can do as a human being, not just as a manager, that are going to help me help them. So as we wrap up here, I want to thank you again and say, you know what else? Any other wishes for the book? And it's launching in July. I know. So it's not even. People can pre order.
- [22:45]
A
Yeah, I would. Yes, pre order. Talk about it. Look, you know, if this was required reading in every organization, I think we'd start to see some higher levels of consciousness, which it kind of does go back to where we started, which is, you know, it's not just self awareness for self awareness sake, it is self awareness and so that you can read as a leader. The leader brings the weather, your own reactivity and your own biases and your own scale of judgment so that you understand how you might get in your own way of creating the kind of value you're hired to create. And then you can teach other people to do it. But here's the great notion that I want to, I guess, leave with. Having been a student and teacher of this work in some way, shape or form for my career, I am a fellow traveler. Just yesterday I had to roll through this methodology. I don't think there's an arrival at like, we're not going to get to the mountain. We're not going to get to the mountaintop. There is no mountaintop. Because we're going to be confronted with yet another something that creates tension or strife in either us or someone on our team. And we have to be able to repair that pretty quickly so that we can get back to accelerating organizational performance, back to accelerating what we're actually hired to do, which is to create results. And I think learning how to do that in a way that brings people in is a forever journey. You know, it is for me, for sure.
- [24:17]
B
Well, I like the answer very much and I've enjoyed the interview because, for one thing, you started by saying issues that have been on my heart. And I can see it in action here. So I've really enjoyed what you've said.
- [24:28]
C
Thanks so much. I want to thank you, too. And you know, anyone can find the book all the Difference, it's coming out in mid July. You can pre order it, you can listen to it on Audible, and you can find this podcast on the New Books Network on our Substack page, which is Real Transformations. And Susan, you are the newest of the new books that we are interviewing in our first set. So this is very special. I really enjoyed it. Want to spend more time with you down the road. And, you know, just thank you so much.
- [24:58]
A
Thank you both for having me. It's been a pleasure talking with you today.