Podcast Summary: New Books Network

Episode: Nicholas Jacobs and Sidney M. Milkis, "Subverting the Republic: Donald J. Trump and the Perils of Presidentialism"

Date: September 20, 2025
Host: Lily Gorn
Guests: Nicholas Jacobs (Colby College), Sidney M. Milkis (University of Virginia)
Book Discussed: Subverting the Republic: Donald J. Trump and the Perils of Presidentialism (UP of Kansas, 2025)

Overview

This episode features political scientists Nicholas Jacobs and Sidney M. Milkis discussing their book Subverting the Republic, which explores Donald Trump’s presidency within the broader context of American political development, focusing particularly on how the institution of the presidency—and the concept of “presidentialism”—has evolved over U.S. history. The discussion situates Trump as both a product and a driver of recent and longstanding institutional, cultural, and partisan transformations.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Genesis and Goals of the Book

• Personal Backgrounds of the Authors:

  • Sid Milkis has long studied the presidency, parties, and social movements (02:51), and collaborated with Nick Jacobs, his former student (04:31).
  • The book emerged from previous research on presidentialism and partisanship, particularly accelerated by the Trump era.
  • They began focusing on the Trump presidency's empirical and historical uniqueness as early as 2017 (04:31).

• Objective:

  • To historicize Trump's presidency, connecting it to deeper shifts within American presidentialism and political culture.

2. Concept of Presidentialism and Its Significance

• Defining Presidentialism:

  • Sid Milkus references Juan Linz's 1990 work, noting the dangers of winner-take-all presidential systems compared to parliamentary ones, and how America was once an outlier due to strong, decentralized parties acting as constraints (08:25).
  • The unique American system was long protected by moderate, catch-all parties, but as party power and moderate opinion declined, presidentialism became a greater risk.

• Dynamic & Ideological Force:

  • Nick Jacobs: Presidentialism is not just about rules but a collective tendency to vest ever more responsibility in the president—a dynamic, ideological, and historical movement (10:46).
  • The book dwells on how pivotal moments in the Trump administration are consequences of long-term developments (10:46).

3. The Transformative Role of the 1960s and 1970s

• Institutional and Social Context:

  • Sid Milkus: Rather than just an extension of the New Deal, the 60s–70s were a turning point that made issues like civil rights and “who belongs” a routine part of political life (14:15).
  • The era brought unresolved, intractable cultural and political division into the center of American politics.

• Administrative Growth:

  • Expansion of the administrative state in the 1960s and 1970s enabled later presidents' enhanced executive power (18:00).
  • Demands from increasingly powerful social movements led to more direct presidential engagement and built an administrative foundation for future unilateralism.

4. Modern Party Politics and Presidential Behavior

• McGovern-Fraser Reforms and Movement Leadership:

  • The move to primary-based nominations in the 1970s allowed (and incentivized) outsider candidates to seize party nominations by running against the establishment (25:45).
  • Nick Jacobs: Over 50 years, candidates gain by positioning themselves as movement leaders, not simply party figures (25:45).

• Consequences for Governing:

  • Presidents now often act as factional leaders with little incentive to build broader consensus, undermining the presidency’s traditional unifying role (29:12).
  • Both parties have responded to this dynamic by increasingly using executive action to satisfy partisan audiences, especially when legislative consensus fails.

5. Expansion of Emergency Powers and Zero-Sum Presidentialism

• Lily Gorn and guests discuss how the historical executive capacity for emergency response has evolved—or mutated—into a near-permanent justification for unilateral action.

  “If everything is an emergency, then the president has the capacity to do anything, which is essentially what Trump has been saying in his Cabinet meeting this week.” — Lily Gorn (32:12)

• Nick Jacobs elaborates that the zero-sum nature of modern partisanship distorts constitutional checks, as Congress and others now encourage executive action if it aids their side (33:13).

• Sid Milkus notes that “declaring emergencies has been increasingly a method by which [presidents] claim that power to play this role of the vanguard in this existential struggle for America’s soul.” (35:23)

6. Administrative Unilateralism: Executive Orders and Beyond

• The Nature and Significance of Executive Orders:

  • Both guests caution against focusing solely on executive orders, as much consequential policy is now made through less visible, “under the radar” administrative actions—memoranda, regulatory guidance, etc. (38:53, 42:45).
  • Nick Jacobs observes a growing opacity, as significant directions occur behind closed doors—phone calls, memos—not just formal EOs (38:53).

• Policy and Performance:

  • Executive actions are now both substantive (immigration, education, personnel) and symbolic—meant to galvanize political bases (44:45, 46:00).
  • As an example, Trump’s executive order against flag burning (despite precedent protecting it as free speech) is seen as performative, aimed at the base (44:45).

7. The Presidency as Cultural and Partisan Vanguard

• From Nixon’s ‘Silent Majority’ to MAGA:
  • The president has become the focal point—in policy and symbolism—for ongoing “who belongs” struggles (47:25-54:31).
  • Nick Jacobs: Presidents now “command the cultural scene and put everything in the shadow of your version of nostalgia… that’s a power that far exceeds any single policy change. Roosevelt didn’t do that.” (50:24)
  • This makes the presidency the axis of deep rural/metropolitan, racial, and cultural conflicts.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Presidentialism’s Dangers:

  “Trump is a poster child for the perils of presidentialism that Linz was analyzing.” — Sid Milkus (10:46)

• On Changing Presidential Selection:

  “The system is set up to run against itself… by the time you get to Donald Trump in 2016, he’s full on, ‘I am the leader of a movement…’” — Nick Jacobs (25:45)

• On Perpetual Emergency:

  “When the state of exception becomes perpetual, when emergencies become permanent… that’s a powerful recipe for authoritarian power.” — Sid Milkus (36:45)

• On the Modern Presidency’s Centrality:

  “The president has become such a more central cultural figure… that’s a power that far exceeds any single policy change.” — Nick Jacobs (50:24)

• On Cultural, Regional, and Racial Divides:

  “It’s the most serious regional divide which we’ve had since the Civil War… now between metropolitan areas and rural areas and small towns.” — Sid Milkus (52:44)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:59] – Introduction to the guests and the new book
• [04:31] – Origins of the book, situating Trump in modern presidency scholarship
• [08:25] – Defining presidentialism, referencing Juan Linz
• [14:15] – The role of the 1960s–1970s in transforming presidency and society
• [18:00] – Administrative state’s growth and permanent activism
• [25:45] – Party reforms, rise of movement leaders, decline of consensus
• [32:12] – Emergency powers, zero-sum politics, and contemporary executive claims
• [38:53] – Executive orders, administrative opacity, new tools of presidential power
• [44:45] – Executive actions as base-mobilizing performances
• [50:24] – Presidency as cultural icon and the rise of identity-based politics
• [52:44] – Rural/metropolitan divides as new frontiers of conflict
• [54:42] – Race and “who belongs” as persistent American questions
• [56:33] – Future projects on federalism and unresolved “who belongs” eras

Further Reflections & Future Work

• Learning from the Past:

  • Trump’s second term is distinguished by a more “deliberate strategy… much more comprehensive” than his first, suggesting presidents (and opponents) are learning and refining approaches to power (55:18).

• Upcoming Projects:

  • The authors are planning new research on the intersection of presidentialism and federalism, and on the unresolved, churning periods of American political development (56:33).

Overall Tone:
The conversation is scholarly but conversational and at times wry, steeped in academic knowledge yet deeply concerned with the practical and existential future of American democracy. The participants are critical, nuanced, and cautious about both partisan and institutional dynamics.

For Listeners:
This episode is essential for anyone interested in the fate of American democracy, the evolution of executive power, and how the Trump years can only be understood by grappling with a century of cultural, institutional, and partisan change.