Nithin Sridhar, "Chatuh Shloki Manusmriti: An English Commentary" (Vitasta, 2025)

Summary

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Podcast Summary

Episode Overview

Podcast: New Books Network
Host: Dr. Raj Balkaran
Guest: Nithin Sridhar, Director, Indica Center for Moksha Studies, Mysore
Book Discussed: Chatuh Shloki Manusmriti: An English Commentary (Vitasta, 2025)
Date: May 7, 2026

In this insightful episode, Dr. Raj Balkaran interviews Nithin Sridhar about his new book, an English commentary on the first four verses of the Manusmriti. The discussion explores the misunderstood and controversial nature of the Manusmriti, its place within the Hindu textual tradition, its core teachings on Dharma, and how such texts can and should be contextualized for contemporary society. The episode also delves into issues of textual interpretation, tradition versus reform, and the ongoing relevance of ancient texts.

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Key Discussion Points

1. Nithin Sridhar’s Intellectual Journey and Motivation for the Book

• Background: Sridhar’s academic path from civil engineering to a deep interest in Hindu philosophy, specifically Dharma Shastra texts.
  • "My first exposure happened through Vedanta...But later when...I was working on another book project called 'Menstruation Across Cultures,' I realized that most of these socio-cultural issues...are dealt in Hindu texts in the genre of Dharmashastra." [02:52]
• Rationale for Focusing on Manusmriti:
  • Noting the Manusmriti’s controversial status and frequent misinterpretation, Sridhar sought an independent, text-centered understanding.
  • Chose to write commentary on just the first four verses, which address fundamental questions about the text’s nature, audience, and purpose.

2. The Place of Manusmriti within Indian Textual Tradition

• Dharma Shastra as Higher Learning:
  • Compared to advanced textbooks, offering systematic, revelatory guidance on Dharma not accessible via perception or inference.
  • "Dharmashastra, Dasmatis...are primarily a kind of textbook of higher learning...It is revelatory in the sense that it brings forth the knowledge to us that is not available to us from any other source." [07:13]
• Smriti vs. Puranic Narratives:
  • Smriti texts are for a scholarly audience, while Puranas and epics communicate dharmic values via stories, accessible to broader society.
• Common Misreadings:
  • The Manusmriti is often anachronistically approached as a legal code or judged by modern political/sociological values, rather than interpreted within its own worldview.

3. Core Teachings and Structure of Manusmriti

• Central Role of Dharma:
  • Dharma is the organizing principle throughout the Manusmriti—informing rituals, household duties, social conduct, and spiritual life.
  • "At the core of all its teachings, all its diverse teachings, is the notion of Dharma and is the very desire to enunciate upon Dharma..." [12:47]
• Multilayered Approach:
  • Text spans teachings on samskaras, roles within families and society, varna (ritual classifications), duties of kings, expiations for lapses.
  • Underlying aim: wellbeing, from material happiness to spiritual liberation (moksha).
  • "The Dharma itself has been defined...as that which leads to abhyujayani shresa, right Sukha Swarga Chitta shuddhi, moksha." [16:13]

4. Context, Applicability, and Contemporary Engagement

• Living vs. ‘Dead’ Texts:
  • Unlike seeing Manusmriti as a historical relic, the Hindu tradition treats such texts as living, to be continuously engaged with across epochs.
  • "By that, what I mean is something that is relevant for all the time, just like the stories of Ramayana and Mahabharata and all they have influenced...our understanding of life even today." [20:36]
• Core vs. Contextual Elements:
  • Core principles (Dharma and Moksha) are eternal, while details of application—especially external behaviours and legal procedures—are context-sensitive.
  • "The key is contextualization, contextualize it to contemporary times, to address contemporary issues." [25:59]
• Tradition as an Open Canon:
  • Unlike closed canons, the Dharmashastra tradition is dynamic—periodically reinterpreted, recommentaried, and adapted.
  • Manusmriti is part of an ongoing tradition of discussion, redaction, commentary, and newly generated dharma texts.

5. Controversy and Misinterpretation: Case Studies

• Translation and Reception Issues:
  • Many so-called controversial verses are misunderstood or mistranslated; e.g., the verse “na stri swatantryam arhati” is usually taken to mean “women do not deserve independence.”
    • Sridhar clarifies: "That verse...is not addressed to women at all. It is addressed to the men, telling them about their duties, wherein the swatantra...represents a state of vulnerability..." [30:17]
• Literary Devices and Interpretive Frameworks:
  • Use of literary tropes (stuti/ninda, praise/blame) and hyperbole are often taken literally, leading to misreadings.
  • Importance of referencing traditional commentaries; often, traditional authorities interpret “severe” verses differently than literalist or modern readers.
  • Example: Shankaracharya’s interpretation of a punitive verse from Gautama Dharma Sutra is non-literal, focusing on ritual restriction rather than physical punishment.

6. The Middle Path: Tradition and Reform

• Navigating Between Extremes:
  • "It's always the middle path, isn't it? ...we have to tread the line between innovation and tradition." [37:27] — Dr. Raj Balkaran
• Engagement and Contextualization:
  • Neither wholesale adoption nor rejection; rather, discernment, engagement, contextualization, and sometimes reform.
• Acknowledgment of Discomfort:
  • Sridhar and Balkaran agree that not all ancient norms suit the present, and literal readings can be naive or misleading.
  • The value lies in engagement: “You need not agree with everything...to understand them. You need not agree with everything. The idea is...these are very fundamentally important texts for Hindu Dharma, for Indian way of life...” [34:56]

7. Future Plans and Closing Insights

• Sridhar's Upcoming Projects:
  • Plans to write an introductory primer on Smritis for beginners and a thematic work focusing on the "heart" of Dharmashastra.
  • Potential return to commentary on the remaining verses of Manusmriti, possibly in stages.
  • "I do plan to come back to commenting on the rest of the text. Maybe it will take more stage by stage." [41:23]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “There is more confusion, propaganda, controversies than real inquiry into the text.” – Nithin Sridhar [05:16]
• “Dharmashasta...as a systematic presentation—a treatise which systematically delves into a topic, and in this case, the topic is Dharma.” – Nithin Sridhar [07:18]
• “The notion of cosmogony...makes way for a more cosmic understanding of our own place. And that from there, that position, then you are able to understand your duty, your human duty, your connection, your interrelationship...” – Nithin Sridhar [13:47]
• “The correct way to go...is examine the contemporary society, contemporary situations, and see how the teachings of the Dharma Shastra are to be applied...” – Nithin Sridhar [25:55]
• “This drishti, this framework remains relevant and it will continue to remain relevant because Dharma as a category, it is Internet [eternal].” – Nithin Sridhar [27:17]
• “Is the controversy...a function of the reception of the text?” – Dr. Raj Balkaran [29:50]
• “Just like we don’t cut the head because of a headache, you don’t throw the baby with the bathwater.” – Nithin Sridhar [34:56]
• “It’s always the middle path, isn’t it? ...we have to tread the line between innovation and tradition.” – Dr. Raj Balkaran [37:27]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [02:52] – Sridhar's journey and motivation for focusing on Manusmriti
• [07:13] – Defining Dharma Shastra and its relation with other textual traditions
• [12:47] – Core themes and structure of the Manusmriti
• [20:36] – The living tradition concept and contextual relevance
• [27:17] – Open canon vs. closed canon: ongoing engagement with the tradition
• [30:17] – Discussion of controversy: translation, reception, and traditional interpretation
• [34:56] – Addressing problematic verses, value of critical engagement
• [37:27] – The “middle path” between tradition and reform
• [39:55] – Sridhar’s future plans regarding further commentary and new works

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Conclusion

This episode offers nuanced, historically-anchored perspectives on the Manusmriti and the broader Hindu dharmashastra tradition. Nithin Sridhar insists on the importance of understanding texts on their own terms, appreciating both their enduring relevance and the need for contextual application. The conversation advocates for a balanced approach, moving beyond polarization, and provides clarity on many misinterpretations that fuel contemporary controversies.

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For further details, see: "Chatuh Shloki Manusmriti: An English Commentary" by Nithin Sridhar (Vitasta, 2025).

Transcript

[Nitin Sridhar]

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[Dr. Raj Balkaran]

Welcome to the New Books Network. Hello and welcome back to the New Books Network. I'm your host, Dr. Raj Balkaran. More importantly, I have the pleasure today of welcoming to the podcast Nitin Tridar, who is director of the Indica center for Moksha Studies and an author based in Mysore. Welcome to the podcast.

[Nitin Sridhar]

Thank you, Dr. Raj. I'm very happy to be here.

[Dr. Raj Balkaran]

Yes, of course. We're diving in today to your manusmithi Your English commentary. Do you want to tell us a little bit about your background, the background of this publication? How did you become interested in this topic?

[Nitin Sridhar]

So I have been student of Indian philosophy, especially Hindu textual tradition, for over a decade now. My interest started long back when I was still a student pursuing my civil engineering. Entirely different field, but slowly my first exposure happened through Vedanta. But later when I was back in 2015, 2016, I was working on another book project called Menstruation Across Cultures, A historical perspective. I realized that most of these socio cultural issues from a Hindu perspective are dealt in Hindu texts in the genre of Dharmashastra. So that was my first direct encounter with smriti texts, including Manusmriti. And ever since then I have been studying the text on and off on various issues and I have been referring to that, studying them. So the encounter with Dharma Shastra began there. And over the years as I have been studying the text, studying secondary, some of the secondary literature, and I realized that manusmriti, especially, as you know, in India, is very controversial text. But even otherwise, it is something which is very misunderstood text from a. Purely from an academic perspective, from a knowledge perspective also, it has been misrepresented, misunderstood, and. There is more confusion, propaganda controversies than real inquiry into the text. So this led me to study the text and try to understand it in a more independent manner. And I realized soon that there are a lot of very fundamental questions about what is the text, about what are its purpose, what does the text say itself, say about its nature, its function, its purpose, who the audience it wants to address, and what kind of utility the text itself self declares as the goal or the purpose of the text. So these are the things that has not been discussed much, that has not been carefully presented. So this led me to kind of write this book, Chatushloki Manusmithi and English Commentary. So I deliberately chose the format of a commentary, the Basya, and it focuses only on the first four verses of the manusmriti, the opening four verses, which gives us details about these questions about what is the nature of the text, what is the nature of manusmithi, who is the intended audience? What is the benefit? What is the utility, what is the connection between the text and the subject matter? So these are the questions that I have dealt in the book, based on the four verses in the manuscript.

[Dr. Raj Balkaran]

Yeah, you said so many interesting things in passing that it is a controversial text in India. And certainly it is for those, I believe, reading it in, you know, in the Academic or various pockets of the Western world can be a controversial text. And you also say that it's a misunderstood text. So let's maybe, you know what I say, a 30,000 foot view. When we have different types of texts, and of course we know that text function very different in the Indic context, but nevertheless, we have texts, we have Vedic texts, Panisharic text, we have Ifiyasa, Purana, then we have Dharma Shastra. They are a distinct sort of class of texts within, within, within the, the, the history of, of IDs, history of religions in India. And so how would we locate them? What would you say? The, you know, how would we classify them? What would you say the primary purpose or contours of, of Dharma shafts are?

[Nitin Sridhar]

I think that's a wonderful question. Primarily you can say, if you have to put it in a contemporary language, then Dharmashasta, Dasmatis, etc, are primarily a kind of a textbook of higher learning, just like we have textbooks related to higher physics at a higher mathematics at a very advanced level. So we can call this smithies and other Dharma shastras as at a similar level, hierarchy in the sense that they are Dharma shastra. Shastra, as you know, is a systematic presentation, a treatise which systematically delves into a, Presents a topic, and in this case the topics is Dharma. So the, the beauty as well as the uniqueness of the smithishastras is that it is, it puts forward, it is, it is revelatory in the sense that, that it brings forth the knowledge to us that is not available to us from any other source. So based on the Vedas, the Smritis teaches those aspects of Dharma, those aspects of practice, those aspects of what is right, what is wrong, what actions to be done, what actions to be avoided, and what are the consequences of those actions. So these are something that we cannot obtain from other sources, such as direct perception or logical inference and other things. So that is where they play a very important role. Similarly, the same function, kind of function is also there in the Mahabharatas, Mahabharata, Ramayana and other Puranas. But there the narrative structure, the whole text is reformulated as a narrative, as something which is very much approachable, as something from which you can create song, dance, drama, etc. To make the Dharmic teachings to reach the very last man standing on the ground. So what the Smriti teaches at a advanced level, so to speak, or at a scholarly level, to a scholarly audience, the Mahavarata and the Puranas, etc. Make it reach the non scholarly Audience thoughts. So this is how I see it, purely from. I would also like to add here the fact that many approach, for example, when they study Manusmithi and other texts, especially it has been controversialized through a political reading, through a sociological reading. And they try to find for a contemporary values or contemporary ideas that we hold very close to us into the text. And if they don't find it, then that becomes a criticism. If they then find it, then that becomes a kind of a. Kind of a reinforcement of their own idea. But those frameworks, those ideas, they are not native to the text. We have to understand the text, drishti its own worldview to make meaningful engagement with the text and to derive meaningful teaching from the text. So just like ideas such as whether Manasmudhi is a law book in the contemporary sense, we understand that a set of legal codes that were implemented by a king or some authority, like a church or whatever it is, we don't find that there is neither historical evidence nor the textual evidence. The text itself does not posit itself as that. It posits itself as a shastra pramana. I mean, I show in my book how in the very opening four verses, it starts with a kind of a narrative wherein a group of sages approach Swayam Bhavmanu with a request for teaching about dharma that is applicable, Dharma that can be practiced by all humanity, so all the varnas, as well as those who cannot be classified as Varna, etc. What this whole narrative structure shows is it's a teaching tradition. It is not about. There is no state, power, power. There is no other religious authority, but rather a guru, shishya, teacher, student relationship. And that is how the knowledge is transmitted. So the focus is on knowledge, so the text focuses on knowledge. So text becomes a shastra pramana, a kind of a textbook in contemporary language for higher learning about dharma.

[Dr. Raj Balkaran]

Is it fair to say then that manasmriti is. Of course, it's a discursive text. It's a discourse. It's not narrative. We've talked about that. Although the power of frame stories is so inescapable, indig thought that it commences with a narrative frame. And the frame, I mean, that's where I always focus. The frames always set up the world. I mean, the frame is crucial. They might seem, I don't know, to some, they might seem fantastical, or they might seem sort of quaint, or they might seem an unnecessary indulgence. But whether all those things are true, either way, they are purposeful. Beginnings of texts which hold extraordinary exegetical import. They are, they're, they are as if lenses through which you should see a world. They're, they're doing very heavy lifting if you pay attention to them. So I like, I like that you pay attention to the opening frame. We'll unpack that in a moment. So can we say loosely that the, that manusmriti is, consists of discourses on social conduct, on Dharma in general, on

[Nitin Sridhar]

how would you call upon that? Yes. I mean, it, it has multi layered approach. So the, the very, at the core of all its teachings, all its diverse teachings, is the notion of Dharma and is the very desire to enunciate upon Dharma, because that is how it has been framed in the story the Rishis asked for teaching about Dharma. So that is how it starts. So even when the text begins with an enunciation about creation of the world, I mean, many, many contemporary scholars have found it unbearable. I mean, they can't make sense of why a discourse on Dharma should begin with creation. But even there, the idea is Dharma at the core. Because understanding the notion of cosmogony, creation and where we stand, and humans as one among the various beings of the universe, so that anthropocentricity makes way for a more cosmic understanding of our own place. And that from there, that position, then you are able to understand your duty, your human duty, your connection, your interrelationship with not only other humans, rest of the human world, but also the entire universe in its entirety. So from this framework, every, every diverse teaching, I mean, for example, manusmriti has teachings about samskaras. So what kind of rituals have to be conducted at different stages in your life? It has teachings about householder duties, how should a husband and wife live together and how should they live as a family? How should a family, what are the duties of a family towards the rest of the society? And how is their ideal behavior should be towards each other? And there are teachings about ascetics, the sannyasis, and what are their duties, how should they behave, how should they live? And there are things about, as you know, the Brahmanakshatriya, vaishyashodra, and those who cannot be classified into the varnas. These are all ritualistic classifications, contrary to the popular understanding that they are all sociological or profession based or endogamy groups that might be so on the ground. But from a shastriya, from the perspective of the text itself, their ritualistic classification, as I shown the book in Appendix 1, has a chapter on varna but the idea is at every level, be it at the Raja Dharma, the duties of the king, or the civil or criminal laws that have been enunciated, or in the chapters and expiations you deviate from the ideals of Dharma, then there are certain expiations to correct your behavior. So all of them have at its core the notion of Dharma, which is that that course of action which can lead an individual to overall well being, material well being here and now, spiritual well being hereafter, be it in the form of attaining Swarga heaven or developing Chitta Shuddhi, you know, the purification of the mind by getting rid of the kama kroda, etc. Or attainment, eventually becoming fit to attain moksha. So the Dharma itself has been defined, has been understood in the Hindu tradition as a whole as that which leads to abhyujayani shresa, right Sukha Swarga Chitta shuddhi, moksha. So this understanding is at the very heart of Manasmrizi and all the dharmashastras that whatever they say has to be tied down back to this central understanding. So when they are speaking for a householder's or for a grahasta's duty, it is from this perspective both the prohibitions as well as the injunctions and has to be understood in that sense. Similarly, whether they are speaking to about women's duties or women's Dharma, or men's Dharma, husband's Dharma, wives dharma, king's Dharma or a citizen's Dharma or anything, all ties back to this. So as I said, while its teachings are very enormous, very diverse, I recently had done a talk on what are the teachings from Manasmriti which are relevant for our everyday life. So how can it make our everyday day to day life enriching? And there I had mentioned about how it speaks about dinner etiquettes, how it speaks about interpersonal relationship, like how we should treat our father, mother or our siblings and our immediate family, etc. It speaks about our social conduct, as you mentioned, how different groups have to conduct. In fact, the idea is it, it gives a very ritualistic, a well being perspective, to put it in contemporary language on all these ideas. A ritualistic well being, so to speak, that is well being in a very worldly sense or a secular sense, but also well being in a very religious ritualistic sense. So that is at the heart of its teaching.

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[Dr. Raj Balkaran]

Would you say that the teachings are overarchingly applicable as they stand? Would you say that they ought to be modified? I take your point earlier insofar as, and I often. I've said this so many times to students studying texts, when we study texts together, that whatever culture they're from, whatever history they're from, it is not our place to adjudicate texts necessarily. I mean, that's a different question. The question of whether or not this text, if I'm looking at the book of Leviticus from the Pentateuch or the Hebrew Bible, and I'm interested in some of the codes about dietary laws or same sex interactions or the cost of a slave. Well, the first step is to understand it within its historical context. Right. And so various cultures, various epochs will have various, various expressions of moral social conduct. This is another question, whether or not there are elements of the text that are supporting current social situations that we may want to engage in or debate in terms of social reform or social discourse. So I take your point entirely. And I think obviously when watching a period piece, for it to be a period piece, it needs to be relatively accurate reflection of that period piece as opposed to having sort of a global, you know, multicultural cast and some whatever, whether it's a piece on whatever epoch, whatever, you know, disjunctive. Right, So I get that point. But what would you say in terms of whether or not Manusmriti is applicable to the title which we live?

[Nitin Sridhar]

Okay, very important question. I think the predominantly the contemporary approach has been to see Manusmriti as a historical text of having some historical value. So kind of a dead text whose value is as an artifact in the Museum of History. But from a. Purely from a Hindu traditional perspective, that is not how these texts are seen, but rather they are seen as a live text, living text. By that, what I mean is something that is relevant for all the time, just like the stories of Ramayana and Mahabharata and all they have influenced, enriched our imagination and our understanding of life even today. So all these core Texts, be it the Vedas, the Smritis, the Itiyasa, Puranas, they are living texts. And when I say living text, I mean it in two ways. First is that their core teaching, namely the Dharma and Moksha, they are eternal, so they are always valid. The simple question is, do a person want to be happy and do a person want to attain material and spiritual well being? The answer will always be yes. Nobody will say that I want to be sad. I don't want well being and happiness in my life. So as long as that question remains, these texts will remain, because these are the texts which are teaching the methods to reach them. So that is, at one level, the Dharma and Moksha are eternal as a category, are eternal by definition. So any text which is dealing with these subjects will have lot of principles, lot of teachings. At its core vision, the core principles, the core foundations, are eternal. Having said that, not everything, there are many other ideas. These texts also exist in history. They also exist in our time, our human timeline. As such, there is these texts of living in another sense, the secondary sense, as in we continuously engage with this text. So our idea is not one single text written in some point in time, rather a continuous engagement with the Shastra tradition, so with the Smriti tradition. So this has led to not only so we have the evidence within the Dharmashastra tradition about how originally the Manu Dharma Shastra had more than 1 lakh verses, but later they were redacted at different points of time. And the final redaction, what we have is some 2,600 verses. And similarly then we had commentary traditions which have been at least nine Samskaras commentaries have been written in the last 1200 years. And we have many other Smritis also written, and they also have commentaries. And even just 100 years back, we have had Dharmashastra texts that have been written. So the idea is you now don't look at a single text, but rather look at the Dharmashastra tradition. And through engagement with this tradition, we are making little living text in the sense that we are continuously contextualizing those teachings to our necessities to address our situations, to address our society. The question is not whether the text is relevant to us today, but rather is how rather is the function of the text is to see how the contemporary society has deviated from the ideals of Dharma, and how this can be corrected or rectified, or how the society can be realigned to the ideals of Dharma, because Dharma is the path to attain well being. So if you want, well Being then we have to realign it so the texts are relevant, that is, the core principles are relevant. The external forms the external. So for example, in the dharmashastra itself, there are the legal jurisprudence, etc, the text, the, the tradition themselves. Recognize these are to be based on the facts on the ground. These are drishta arthafal, as they said. So that is which on the ground drishta that can be perceived. So that means when the ground situations, the ground facts change, then the application also change. So the core remains same, but the application of the core principles changes with the changing conditions. So what people confuse is that this changing conditions, the application changes, but they think that the text itself becomes invalid or they need to be modified. We don't need to modify that text. We need to engage with the text and create more text. We need to create more dharmashastra texts like our ancestors did like through the form of commentaries, the Basyas, the Nivendas, the independent texts. So we need to revive the dharmashastra tradition, wherein the texts can be engaged with on their own basis, on wherein their worldview can be understood without any, any obstacle. And then those teachings can be utilized and contextualized. The key is contextualization, contextualize it to contemporary times, to address contemporary issues. So the, the core is, except for the legal part, the other, the acharam and the prayer chitta, they all deal with adusta phala, that is such as punya, swarga, chitta, shuddhi, moksha, which are all non empirical in the sense that we cannot verify it with our eyes, ears, etc. As is, they are all eternal principles. Even today, if we want spiritual well being, if you want to travel towards moksha, then these methods have to be adopted. And there are hundreds of methods given in manasmriti itself that are relevant for various context situations and all. So the correct way to go, as I see it, is examine the contemporary society, contemporary situations, and see how the teachings of the Dharma Shastra are to be applied, are to be used to determine. The issue is to kind of examine these situations on the ground and then give your guidelines based on the dharmashastra. So just like we have today, we have so many narratives, so many frameworks developed through which, say, for example, we have feministic works which focus, which analyze the whole world and every issue from a feministic lens. So this is a Dharma Shastra framework. From a Dharma drishti, the whole world is analyzed. So this drishti, this framework remains relevant and it will continue to remain relevant because Dharma As a category, it is Internet.

[Dr. Raj Balkaran]

So what I'm gathering from what you're saying, actually what comes to mind really is this fundamental distinction between religious traditions which feature a closed canon, versus religious traditions which feature an open canon. And this is a fundamental distinction where there are certainly traditions, most notably Abraham traditions, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, particularly Christianity and Islam, where it's a closed canon. Right. The revelation has been revealed. And you do obviously have a great deal of literature throughout the Jewish scriptures, of teachers in every epoch engaging the Torah and making sense of it. But, you know, in the context, saints and sages and Amshas, portions of the divine ever enter the world of human beings. And also texts are interpreted and reinterpreted time and time and time again. Whether, for example, our colleague who does Shantava, who does wonderful Vedic chanting for people, teach Vedic chanting to people all over the world in a pristine fashion, that itself is an example of her going to a bonafide teacher to say, you know, is this permissible? Is this not what's going on here? And then what we see is the teachings being adapted to the circumstances. And we see this time and time again, whether, you know, I did a talk on I Believe youe Platform on the stories behind the poses. Now, those stories are ancient stories. There's also. They're also modern innovations. They're not, you know, they're directly inspired from the Puranas and the epics. And yet there might be tweaks to befit the time, to befit the times that we're in. So, so, so the backdrop of, of all of this is that indic tradition features, you know, the. The Vedic corpus may be closed indeed, but Smriti is ever open and being engaged and being added to in a sense, particularly in terms of living tradition. And so for what I'm understanding what you're saying, Manu, Smriti itself should be engaged in tandem with the times of matrimon to make sense of life on earth. Right. Now, would you then say that there are elements of the text which are problematic or are genuinely controversial? Is the controversy part and parcel of aspects of the text and views therein, or is the controversy a function of the reception of the text?

[Nitin Sridhar]

I think, as I see it, at least in the book, I have shown at least one or two examples wherein the controversial reading has to be more with the way it has been read and translated and understood. For example, the very famous verse I.e. nastri Sutandra Marhati, this is a very, very controversial verse that women do not deserve Independence as it has been usually translated. That verse in the ninth chapter, it is not addressed to women at all. It is addressed to the men, telling them about their duties, wherein the swatantra, there it represents a state of vulnerability that women should never be put in a state of vulnerability, so they should be protected. So it is a teaching to the men folk of the family to treat the women folk in the family well. Right. So it's a very different understanding of swatantra within the tradition in that context and how it is read contemporarily. So these. There are many issues like this, but of course, there are many other areas wherein the text appears to be truly controversial. But the way I see it is these controversial readings of these controversial teachings are more to do with how the contemporary society has kind of become alienated. And speaking purely in Indian context, how Indian society has become alienated from its own dharmic roots, from its own religious roots. So as a result of colonialism and other continuous alienation in education and overall every field. So because of this alienation, we are no longer able to relate to those ideas. We have already adopted other ideas, the alien ideas as our own, and become alienated from our own tradition. So there are many instances like this because of which today when we read these texts, such as especially the Manasmriti and other Smriti texts, because of the unfamiliarity with the grammar of the Smritis. Grammar not in the sense of Vyakarna, but grammar in the sense of unique usages, unique examples, or unique way some ideas are expressed in the Smriti text. They appear problematic to us. And this is at the heart of many of the controversies in many places. For example, as you know very well that ninda, stuthi stuti and ninda are two very common tool, common literary tool that are used to either uphold something or uphold something as good. You know, to uphold something you do the ninda of the other, or to uphold something, you do the stuti of the that thing. So when you. Even if, when you do in Bhagavad Gita, and also we see that the Dhyana Maga is upholded, the Vaidika Karma is doing some form of ninda, you find one or two places, but it is not really a ninda in the sense that the karma is bad or jnana is good, but to understand the relative place in the larger spiritual journey. Similarly in the Mana Sumati also you find these tools being these literally literary tropes being used. And this have been often understood, interpreted as something that has created problems in the society at a social level. Now, I'm not going to say that there are no problematic areas in any text. There would be in the sense that we are, we are approaching it today from our own perspective, our own framework and etc. So we might not resonate with every idea. But my appeal has been continuously this, that just like we don't cut the head because of a headache, you don't throw the baby with the bathwater, we have to engage with these texts to understand them. You need not agree with everything. The idea is the. These are very fundamentally important texts for Hindu Dharma, for Indian way of life, and to understand Indian way of life. And it is not just that Mana Smriti is controversial. You can find similar controversial, problematic provisions even in Mahabharata, even in Puranas, even in other Smritis, even in the Vedas itself. So the idea is how you read them, how you understand them, and importantly how you contextualize them to your own teachings. You will see we will find that many of the problematic portions, the way we interpret today differs from where the traditional Acharyasim themselves interpreted. So one of the very example that comes to my mind is how this. There is some Gautama Dharma Sutra, I think, which speaks about pouring molten lead on somebody who hears the Vedas, who is not supposed to hear a non Vijay. But Shankaracharya, while quoting the verse, simply uses it as a reference to say that there is a prohibition on there is a restriction on who can do the Veda Adhyayana and who cannot do the Veda Adhyana. That's it. His interpretation of that verse is not in literal sense, not in the sense of punishment, not in a sense of. And we don't find any historical evidence to show that something like that ever was carried out, something like that violent was ever carried out. So the idea is the way the tradition itself has interpreted certain verses is very different from how when we approach the text today, prima facie, our interpretation or our understanding, especially in the translation, would be very different. We might find some portions really problematic, but the tradition itself might in many cases would have a different interpretation, would have a different understanding. So it is very necessary to understand this text on its own basis and how the tradition itself has seen it, how it has been interpreted for a long time, and how we can now contextualize it to address today's issue. So Manusmati itself has, for example, 2650 verses. So even if you say 100 verses are problematic or 200 verses are problematic. And if we exclude them for suggest, for argument's sake, even then there are so much teachings in it, 20, 400, 500 verses, which have real gems hidden, which have real teachings hidden, which are very, very relevant to our society today, to our life today, to enrich our life today, that those teachings need to be contextualized and understood today. So this book. In this book, I have tried to provide a gateway to start the journey by emphasizing on what the text is telling about its own purpose, its own place, its own function, and its own utility.

[Dr. Raj Balkaran]

Great. Well, thank you for sharing that perspective. It's always the middle path, isn't it? It's always. It seems to me that utility and wisdom require us to steer clear of polarization and that somehow we have to tread the line between innovation and tradition. Of course, tradition is not to be dispensed with. We would be robbing ourselves of extraordinary insight which we may not ourselves even understand until years or decades later when we return to it and are able to receive it. And of course, we cannot take wholesale the norms and rules and the injunctions that once served societies that looked very different from ours. And on top of all that, folks take these texts so incredibly literally and seriously, where they're oftentimes so full of artevaga or exaggeration, or they're full of irony or tensions. I just happen to be preparing slides now for class on the Devi Mahatmya. And the Devi is manifested. And the demons say, oh, you look so hot. You're so great. You're a jewel among women. You should belong to her overlord. And she bands her eyelashes and she says, oh, I made this silly vow. The only man I'll marry is the man who can best me in battle.

[Nitin Sridhar]

Obviously, she's playing with them. Obviously, this isn't her

[Dr. Raj Balkaran]

innermost situation.

[Nitin Sridhar]

Her.

[Dr. Raj Balkaran]

Her.

[Nitin Sridhar]

It's.

[Dr. Raj Balkaran]

You could take that in so many ways. But to my mind, she's giving them exactly what. What they expect. Someone who's either ditzy or insolent, or she's playing with them. She's feeding into their Maya. So.

[Nitin Sridhar]

But how do we take that. How do.

[Dr. Raj Balkaran]

If you were to interpret that verse literally, you would lose so much of what she's actually accomplishing there. More above and beyond the. The. The. The contents of the words. And so, just one example, it happened to be pressing my mind because I was preparing these slides right before our call. But it's great that you are able to both honor what is of value and also honor what may not be a value or what might need to be discarded or dispensed with or alchemized or reformed in some way now. And the curiosity I have is whether or not you will continue this work. Will you continue with commenting on future versus in future?

[Nitin Sridhar]

I mean I do have two minds on this. I do want to continue this commentary, but I may not do it immediately. It is kind of a future project that I want to finish in this life kind of thing that to write a complete commentary, but rather I want to focus on something on Alid, for example, I'm already working on I just started working on a very introductory primer on Smritis for a non scholarly audience. So what you should know before you start reading Smritis, something like on those lines very for a non scholarly but a beginner audience. It could be used for both scholars or for the non scholars but for a beginner audience in a very non academic language. So that is one project that I'm really looking forward to work on. I also want to work on a project called Heart of the Dharmashastra, the Heart of the Mansmithi or something like that wherein remove all the noise, remove all the verses that are distracting and focus on the very heart of the teachings of the text. So because often we get caught up in the jungle and we fail to reach the core. So I have some other similar ideas to do regarding Dharmashastra's tradition. But eventually I do plan to come back to commenting on the rest of the text. Maybe it will take more stage by stage. I may not do it all at once just like I did with four verses. I may do it chapter wise or thematically do it in multiple stages. But I do have that idea. But I don't know how future will take me because I have other ideas, other topics also that I have in mind to deal with.

[Dr. Raj Balkaran]

We plan and God laughs, right? Who knows? Who knows what is coming next? Yeah. Okay, great. Well, thank you very much for appearing on the podcast today.

[Nitin Sridhar]

Thank you, thank you very much. This was a wonderful conversation and thank you for having me.

[Dr. Raj Balkaran]

For those listening, we have been speaking with Nitin Sridhar who is a Mysore based author and he's also the director of the Indica center for Moksha Studies. All of that information is in the podcast links. We have been talking about his intriguing commentary, English commentary on the opening versus the opening frame of the Manusmriti and what it means for the purposes and the interpretation of the Manusmriti. So have a look in the podcast notes. Until next time, keep well keep listening. Keep reading and keep contemplating how many of the old rules are still important today. Bye for now.

[Nitin Sridhar]

Thank you.