← New Books Network
New Books Network
O. Jennifer Dixon-McKnight, "We Paved the Way: Black Women and the Charleston Hospital Workers' Campaign" (UP of Mississippi, 2025)
00:34:17
Loading summary
Transcript28 lines
- [00:00]
A
Hello, everybody. This is Marshall Po. I'm the founder and editor of the New Books Network. And if you're listening to this, you know that the NBN is the largest academic podcast network in the world. We reach a worldwide audience of 2 million people. You may have a podcast, or you may be thinking about starting a podcast. As you probably know, there are challenges basically of two kinds. One is technical. There are things you have to know in order to get your podcast produced and distributed. And the second is, and this is the biggest problem, you need to get an audience. Building an audience in podcasting is the hardest thing to do today. With this in mind, we at the NBM have started a service called NBN Productions. What we do is help you create a podcast, produce your podcast, distribute your podcast, and we host your podcast. Most importantly, what we do is we distribute your podcast to the NBN audience. We've done this many times with many academic podcasts, and we would like to help you. If you would be interested in talking to us about how we can help you with your podcast, please contact us. Just go to the front page of the New Books Network and you will see a link to NBN Productions. Click that, fill out the form, and we can talk. Welcome to the New Books Network.
- [01:07]
B
Hello, everyone, and welcome to the New Book Podcast. I'm Deidre Tyler, host. Today we'll be talking with Dr. O. Jennifer Dixon McKnight, author of the book We Paved the Black Women and the Charleston Hospital Workers Campaign. How are you doing today, Professor?
- [01:28]
C
I'm doing just fine, thank you. I hope you're well.
- [01:32]
B
Yes. I would like for you to start by telling us a few words about yourself and how you got started on this project.
- [01:42]
C
I am an associate professor of history and African American Studies at Winthrop University. I started working on this project several years ago as a doctoral student at UNC Chapel Hill. I worked for the sohp, the Southern Oral History Program, for a summer, and we were tasked with conducting oral histories that were tied to the long civil rights movement under this umbrella of the long civil rights movement. And so myself and a few of my classmates were headed off to Charleston, and each of us had a different assignment. Mine was to examine the hospital worker strike that happened in Charleston in 1970. So part of the work in preparing for that trip, and we were going to be doing field research for a couple of weeks, and the preparation for that trip was a part of the preparation was to sort of examine the scholarship that was already available on that topic. And so as I had sort of began to dig through sources on the hospital worker strike, I found that there were mentions of hundreds of black women involved in the strike. But much of what I was finding in regards to sources didn't speak a whole lot about the women themselves. So that was kind of the question that I came away from that preliminary research with, going into that research trip, thinking about this particular moment in South Carolina's history, Charleston's history, and trying to understand where the women who were at the center of it, sort of how. How were they situated in the narrative.
- [03:31]
B
Great. Now, you emphasize that the 1969 strike wasn't an isolated event, but part of a protest tradition. How did the 1945 cigar factory strike provide a blueprint for these hospital workers 20 years later?
- [03:51]
C
So there's a few pieces. So one is the fact that, you know, in Charleston, in South Carolina, which is a right to work state, there is sort of legislation or laws in place that companies do not have to bargain with unions. So the cigar factory strike of 1945 and the presence of Local 15A sort of sets the stage and provides a model for the kind of resistance that hospital workers engage in in 1969. Sort of, generally speaking, we also see some of that same connection with the longshoremen and the longshoremen's union. But when we think about sort of the connection to the cigar workers strike, there are two key people that I would highlight that draw a pretty specific and consistent connection between the 1945 strike and what happens in 1969. Lily Doster was someone who worked at the cigar factory. She worked there for almost 30 years, just shy of 30 years. She was also someone who was a part of the tobacco Workers Union, Local 15A, and she was the person that helped Mary Moultrie. Mary Moultrie, who's the person that goes on to be the president of the hospital, the local hospital workers union. She's the person that helped sort of guide workers in general in this process. She spent a lot of time in the DPO hall as they were preparing to unionize, but also as they were preparing to go on strike. But she was the person that sat down with Mary Moultrie to help her draft the letter that Mary Moultrie wrote and sent to Local 1199 Hospital Workers Union, asking them for assistance in Charleston. So there's that connection. But then there's also Mr. Isaiah Bennett. Mr. Bennett worked. Worked at the cigar factory he served, was a part of that strike as well. But he was also a member and eventually, I believe, President of Local 15A, the Tobacco Workers union. He became heavily involved in helping to support and organize hospital workers at the beginning of the informal organizing that workers did in 1968, 67, going into 68, and for the bulk of 68, Isaiah Bennett was critical to that sort of early organizing. So much so that Local 15A lent Isaiah Bennett to Local 1199 as a full time organizer in support of getting these workers organized, but also getting their movement off the ground. So in many of the sources that I dealt with, Isaiah Bennett's name came up frequently. He did a lot of the background communication, serving as a liaison between workers in the community, between workers and the hospital, between workers and the union. He just did a lot of legwork to help get the movement off the ground. So I think when we think about what the cigar workers strike, local 1115A, and even just sort of this tradition of union activity in Charleston, I think both of those individuals kind of help give us some insight into how that connection is made, but also that there's a thread of resistance and activism that goes from the earlier movement into the one that happened in 1969.
- [07:50]
B
Okay, now why was the firing of the five black women in 1967 the tipping point for an entire workforce that endured in day in day, decades of discrimination?
- [08:05]
C
So in 1967, when those five women went to work in December, they clocked in, asked for their normal patient reports before they reported to the floor, and they were refused. And the supervising RN told them that if they didn't report to the floor that they would be fired. Either report to the floor or go home. And they chose to go home and they were terminated. So what ends up happening from that point? They're fired. And the supervising RN was a white RN, was a white nurse. And these women, all five of them were African American. I think the difference in that moment is Mary Moultrie got wind of it. Mary Moultrie had not been back in Charleston very long at that point. She had recently returned to Charleston from working in New York. She herself, working in New York, had become a part of a union while working there and sort of had gotten a sense of the impact of unionization, formal organizing among workers, and even the power of the workers voice in that moment. And so she got wind of what happened to those workers. She in turn went on to solicit the help of Mr. William Saunders and Isaiah Bennett to help figure out one, how to get the workers their jobs back, but also to figure out how do we address this issue in a way that keeps this from continuing to happen. And when I interviewed her, she talked about, you know, realizing in that moment that, you know, in the conversations that she had after those workers got fired, talking to other workers, her fellow coworkers, talking about, particularly black coworkers, about the kinds of experiences they were having in the hospital. And we're talking about, excuse me, medical college at the time, talking about the fact that black hospital workers were forced to eat in boiler rooms versus the break room. Black patients were being treated in a separate part of the hospital that black workers were referred to with derogatory terms, racially motivated derogatory terms. So these are some of the things that they were experiencing in the workplace. And so for the group of women that galvanized around this moment, the firing of those five workers, which was as far as they were concerned, was without cause. It was sort of that sort of the straw that brought the camel's back.
- [11:00]
B
Yes. Now you talk about Mary Motier in your book, Give us some surprising facts that told us something about her transition from a nurse's aide to a union president.
- [11:15]
C
Mary Moultrie, again, was someone who, in my opinion, was a. I don't want to call her quiet force, but she wasn't loud and confrontational in the way that you would think a union leader or a labor organizer would be. And I don't mean loud in a derogatory term. I mean loud in terms of a willingness to be out front. So let me not say loud. Let me say it. Willingness to be out front. So she, in getting involved, I think, in many ways did so out of a sense of duty to herself personally, but also to the people that she worked with and even to the black community, the local black community at large. I think in making that transition, one of the things she said to me, it was that, you know, when she went on strike, she had some shoes. And I quote this in the book. When she went on strike, she had some shoes. When the strike was over, she didn't have any shoes. They were holes in her shoes. Right. So the point being that she didn't concern herself with a lot of the sort of the things that were at sort of high level, you know, conversations among hospital administrators or conversations among union leaders or even eventually conversations among SELC staff. For Mary Moultrie, it really was about her doing everything she could to secure a living wage and a safe and respectful work environment for herself and her coworkers. And so for her, the transition really was about there are people who are being disrespected, who don't get equal pay, who aren't Getting a fair chance or access to promotion, who are being restricted from a number of different positions. There is racist activity. There's a great deal of oppression happening in this space. And I think that the focus for her was that and not necessarily the notoriety that would come along with the work that she was doing. I don't know that she anticipated that she would be the face of the movement in the way that she ultimately was.
- [13:46]
B
Now, how did the women adapt to 9pm curfew and 1,000 National Guards patrolling the streets?
- [13:57]
C
I think one of the things that I try to emphasize in the book is the fact that the organizing that happened among workers prior to the strike and even after the strike, one of the key pieces is it wasn't just them walking on a picket line. They spent a great deal of time preparing and strategizing. And so one of the ways that they utilize the time when. And there were some of them who obviously confronted the curfew, challenged the curfew, and many of them were arrested, right, for refusing to leave the picket line at the hour that they were supposed to, or for being outside and engaging in any kind of union activity in the hours when they weren't supposed to. There were some of them that refused, and some of them that were. That had to go through the judicial process as a result. But then there were also a number of them who, you know, before the union came in, before SDLC came in, Isaiah Bennett, William Saunders worked together with Mary Moultrie early in the organizing. They organized nightly meetings and where they sort of talked about what was happening in these hospitals, because eventually it was medical college. And then eventually workers from Charleston county came on board. And so strategizing, bringing in speakers to talk to workers to encourage them, but to also to help them in the strategizing that persisted after the union came in and after SELC came in, they were doing nightly meetings. They were engaging trainings where they were being prepared for what they would encounter on the picket line, how to engage once SELC came in. Because at that point, you see an expansion where it's not just label organizing, right? There is sort of an intersection of civil rights and labor organizing that happens that are part of this movement. And so part of the training is to be well versed in nonviolent direct action. And so some of that time was used for them to prepare, to train, to meet and to strategize. And so I think they dealt with in a number of different ways. Some of that was resistance to the implementation or the imposition of the curfew. But also there was them taking the time during those times to help continue to build the movement.
- [16:41]
D
My dad taught me a lot, including how easy it is to forget to cancel things. So I downloaded Experian, my bff. Big Financial Friend Experian could help me cancel my unused subscriptions and lower my bills, saving me hundreds a year. Get started with the experience. Experian up today. Your big financial friends here to help you save smarter. Results will vary. Not all bills are subscriptions eligible. Savings not guaranteed $631 a year average savings with one plus negotiations and one plus cancellations paid. Membership with connected payment account required. See experian.com for details.
- [17:09]
B
Experian now you talk about Coretta Scott King's involvement. How did her presence impact the morale and the purpose of the women on the picket line?
- [17:22]
C
So there is a beautiful image of Mrs. King walking alongside Mary Moultrie. You can find it online. One of the images when you Google the strike. That's one of the images that often comes up. And I believe Coretta Scott King has on a local 1199 hat her presence. And some of the women in the interviews that they did, both with me and other scholars, they talked about the fact that for one, she offered sort of an example of a strong woman. And because keep in mind, when the strike happened, it was just a year after Dr. King had been assassinated and it had been just a year after he was in Memphis to support workers or sanitation workers in Memphis. And so Mrs. King being in Charleston for hospital workers on the one hand, was a continuation of that work. And the workers felt supported by her presence. They were uplifted by her presence, but also the fact that this sort of coming together and I think her presence symbolized this in many ways, just as the presence of SCLC did as a whole, but this intersection of civil rights and labor that really defines this moment in Charleston. But I think workers really felt supported by her presence and it gave them a morale boost, certainly as they moved further into the strike, having her come to Charleston, because by this point SCLC has come to Charleston in full force. But they are really elated by the fact that she's there. She's a national figure. She's on the heels of the death of her husband. But she's taken out the time to show up to this moment and offer her support. And she goes to Charleston a few times. But she's definitely well received and they're grateful. The workers are grateful to have her have her show up for them and be supportive of the movement in that.
- [19:43]
B
Moment, what were the most common challenges the women face when they walk back into the hospital to work along with the same supervisors who had them arrested?
- [19:56]
C
So I think the most telling for me in that was when I entered the last interview that I did with Mary Moultrie, and that must have been, I think, 2008. And I asked her about that. I asked her what was it like to return to work after being out on strike for over 100 days. Not everyone that went out on strike got their jobs back. Mary Moultrie, in particular, was among the first 12 to get fired, to be terminated. I saw a folder when I was looking at the Dr. McCor, William McCord, the president's, the. The hospital medical college president's papers some years ago, and there was a folder with information about those first 12 workers. And they referred to him. He referred to them as a dirty dozen. Those first 12 that were terminated that. Leading up to the strike, Mary Moultrie talked about. And I asked her, I said, what was that like returning? And she said, and she actually wasn't able to finish the statement. She became too emotional and just. Just wasn't able to. To move forward with what she was going to say. But I asked her, and she said, she talked about how difficult it was. She said, if you know anything about workplace mob violence, she said, but I can't talk about it. She said, I can't. She said, I just can't talk about it. And that was the extent of what she would say to me about it. But she became visibly emotional and her trying to talk about it and just couldn't go through with a discussion. I had other women like Naomi white. Naomi White, Ms. Naomi White was far more confrontational. So for her, she talked about her return being pretty seamless because it seemed that people were unwilling to confront her before she left the hospital, so she felt less threatened returning to the hospital. But I will say that for Mary Moultrie, she was just a few years shy of retirement and left the hospital and actually ended up retiring from the city of Charleston because whatever the pressure was and whatever the experience that she had, she. She wasn't able to finish her tenure at the hospital.
- [22:35]
B
Now, based on your interviews, did the workers feel that the sense of dignity they won was worth 113 days of lost wages and jail time?
- [22:48]
C
I think the sense that I got from what I heard in interviews, what I read in newspapers, what I got from various sources, I think it was mixed in their ultimate assessment of this moment. So I think that many of them were proud, particularly in the moment, of their contributions. Most of the folks that were involved, most of these women were not activists, right? They became activists in the moment. They had a goal of securing a fair wage, of eradicating racism, a push for dignity for themselves and their co workers, and that is what drove them to become a part of this movement. But they didn't necessarily see themselves as activists. And I don't think that many of them saw themselves as heroes or heroines in the end, looking back. But I think that there was pride, and I think that they were okay with the sacrifices that they had to make in order to secure some change. I think many of them talked about sort of frustration with not seeing the kind of or the amount of change that they anticipated. In the end, they saw some change in regards to wage, but maybe not to the extent that they hoped. They saw some change in policy, but not to the extent that they hoped. And again, like I said, once the strike was over, there were some of them that did not get their jobs back. So there's the other. There's the other part of the issue. I know with interviewing Mary Moultrie, she talked about the way that the strike was resolved and ultimately hospital workers were left out of the final resolution. And so workers were in the DPO hall and got word of the strike being resolved. And so she expressed frustration and disappointment with that aspect of it. And so she said that, you know, for her, and she talked about kind of sharing that sentiment with some other workers, that there was disappointment in how it was resolved and them feeling kind of left out of the final sort of process of resolution. And so I think that part of the struggle too, for some of these women. Excuse me. Is that. Excuse me. Is that for some of them, looking back at this moment, there was not always pride from the public and how they regarded the moment and these women's contribution. So initially, after the strike, they weren't regarded positively. So that was also part of the struggle. They didn't become. This moment wasn't celebrated initially. So it wasn't until early 2000s that the narrative around the strike began to change. Where the city of Charleston, the state of South Carolina, began to celebrate this hospital worker strike as an important part of the state and the city's history. Prior to that, they were referred to as agitators, not necessarily as individuals who should be celebrated. So part of it too, for them coming out of it, and to the earlier question about what they experienced returning to work, they. Their sacrifices, even if they felt proud of what they contributed wasn't always celebrated from the community around them.
- [26:43]
B
Now you centered on oral histories with women themselves. How did that change the narrative from what was recorded in official government or hospital archives?
- [26:54]
C
So one of the things that we see. So for instance, I think that the oral histories give us a little more insight into how these women experience the strike personally and the sacrifices that they made personally, but also helps us to understand who they were. So I wasn't able, unfortunately, to conduct as many interviews as I had originally anticipated. But I think that the interviews that I did conduct offered some really important insights into the lives of these women who were on the picket line. So, you know, when I interviewed Naomi White, I became aware of the fact that whenever the strike happened, Naomi White was in her 40s and she was a mother of six, married. And I understood that her husband was a barber. He even provided haircuts to some of the strikers. But for her as a 40 something year old woman, a mother of six and also a member of a local Catholic church. So sort of her approach, her understanding of community and the way that she approached it, being influenced by all of those pieces. Rosetta Simmons, you know who during the strike, she came from Charleston County Hospital, she was pregnant during the time of the strike and gave birth to a child during the time of the strike. And actually as a striking worker, had to receive medical care at Medical College Hospital. So the complexity of that kind of moment. So we are able to get a more clear understanding of the sort of the complex nature of the presence of women in these moments and the types of things that impact their experience distinctly. So I think that sort of being able to get to the strike from a different perspective. Naomi White talked about and introduces a more militant approach to the strike that we won't get if we're reading the narrative that is SCLC focused Southern Christian Leadership Conference. We won't get that if we talk about it from their perspective, because they're an organization that focuses on nonviolence. But Naomi White talks about those early days on the picket line where she had a physical altercation with a worker, an African American woman trying to cross the picket line and go into work. She talks about organization that she organized called Hell's Angel. Not the motorcycle group, but a group, informally organized group of workers who targeted scabs or those workers who were going into the hospital while the strike was going on. So those are the kinds of things that we don't have as much insight into without that sort of personal account. And so I think the oral Histories gives us a little more a different type of depth and helps us to sort of get past some of the institutional history and helps us to understand how this moment shows up in the lives of these workers personally.
- [30:28]
B
Now, what is the overall message you would like the reader to leave with once they finish your book that I just scratched?
- [30:38]
C
This is just another. This is another contribution to an incredibly rich history, rich history of African American women, rich history of working class African American women, rich history of the city of Charleston, state of South Carolina, the field of medicine, healthcare. I think that I want people to come away from this book understanding that women's activism, women's contribution to movement is critical and it's distinct. I think that the more that we pull back the layers, the more that we shine light into the lives and work of African American women, we get to see more of the heart of this nation. We get to understand more of the heart of who we are as a people. And so I hope that this book offers the reader a little more insight into the history of Charleston's civil rights and labor history. And I hope that it helps to sort of help people understand that the local movements are critical to what happens nationally. Right. So if we don't talk about what happens locally in terms of labor, if we don't talk about what happened locally in terms of civil rights movement, we can't fully understand what unfolds on a national level.
- [32:20]
B
Well, I've taken up enough of your time. Can you tell the audience the next project you'll be working on?
- [32:28]
C
I am at the very early stages of working on a project, and I haven't narrowed down sort of the scope, but I'm working on a project that will focus on the civil rights history of Rock Hill, South Carolina.
- [32:43]
B
Well, we'll be looking forward to reading more information about that. And thank you so much for being on the podcast.
- [32:52]
C
Thank you so much.