Podcast Summary:

New Books Network – Olivier Esteves et al., "France, You Love It but Leave It: The Silent Flight of French Muslims" (Polity, 2025)
Host: Dr. Miranda Melcher
Guest: Dr. Olivier Esteves
Date: February 6, 2026

Episode Overview

This episode features Dr. Olivier Esteves, co-author of France, You Love It but Leave It: The Silent Flight of French Muslims. Dr. Esteves discusses the collective research project that investigates why an increasing number of highly qualified French Muslims are leaving France for countries such as the UK, Canada, and Dubai. The conversation explores discrimination, Islamophobia, and the struggle to integrate into French society, despite strong cultural and emotional ties to France.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Book’s Genesis and Team Effort

• Collective Project: While only three authors are credited, nearly ten academics contributed, from interdisciplinary backgrounds.
  • “It’s actually an even more collective project…almost 10 people, 10 academics from various disciplines actually working on this project.” [01:24, Esteves]
• Personal Motive: Esteves noticed a trend among his students (especially hijabi women) from Lille, who completed their studies but moved to London, never to return:
  • “I have been hearing for…10 years now of certain very good students…young women who are Muslim who wear hijabs and who decide to go to London and never come back.” [01:48, Esteves]
• Serendipity: After publishing a call for respondents, the project’s scope grew dramatically thanks to activist Marwan Mohammed's tweet.
  • “We were literally flooded with responses from French people who are Muslim and who live in various parts of the planet.” [10:53, Esteves]

The Meaning Behind the Title

• Provocative Wordplay: The title adapts the right-wing slogan “France, you love it or leave it” (used by politicians like Sarkozy) and modifies it:
  • “By changing one single, very small word…or into but…the whole meaning has changed.” [05:48, Esteves]
• Ambivalence: Interviewees love many aspects of France—its culture, education, and social security—but feel forced to leave due to discrimination:
  • “For all these things they are very thankful. And yet they decide to leave France because for the vast majority of them… they have suffered various types of discrimination.” [08:17, Esteves]
  • “If you wear a hijab in France, 90…90% of the time…the job market is virtually closed to you.” [08:57, Esteves]

Research Method & Demographics

• Massive Response:
  • 1,070 comprehensive survey responses
  • 144+ in-depth biographical interviews
  • Most respondents: highly educated, politically left-leaning, and active against Islamophobia—acknowledged as selection bias.
  • “It’s completely exploratory. The fact that there has been no such research ever made in France means that hopefully…there’s going to be a more ambitious and a sort of less biased study than our study.” [12:26, Esteves]

Reasons for Leaving: Key Findings

• Explicit Workplace Discrimination:
  • “Massive discrimination against hijabi women on the job market in France.” [14:19, Esteves]
• Discrimination by Perception:
  • Non-observant Muslims or those with “Arab-sounding” names faced rejection. French CVs typically include photos, making visual discrimination easy:
    • “Even if you don’t practice, your name or face marks you as ‘other’.” [15:05, Esteves]
• Three Career Trajectories:
  • Stopped: Careers halted due to Muslim identity (esp. hijabi women).
  • Bridled: Qualified Muslims hit a ‘glass ceiling’—passed over for promotions.
    • “I had been working so hard for this company…but there was a guy who arrived three years after me…he came before me when it came to getting…a promotion.” [17:10, Esteves]
  • Frustrated: Successful, but endured daily microaggressions and othering from colleagues.
    • “You’re not like the other ones, you are integrated.” [17:41, Esteves]
• Change in Perspective After Emigration:
  • Many only realized the extent of their mistreatment after living abroad.
    • “Now, with hindsight, and now that I live in Toronto or Chicago, I now regard what happened to me in France as unfair, as not normal.” [19:54, Esteves]

Discrimination Beyond the Workplace

• School-Level Racism:
  • Not only from peers but also teachers.
    • “A large majority…suffered from some kind of racism at school level…especially coming from some teachers.” [21:41, Esteves]
  • Myth of meritocracy debunked: moving from multicultural middle schools to elite high schools exposed class and racial segregation.
• Barriers in Higher Ed:
  • State university degrees devalued in France’s job market, but valued abroad:
    • “Once you leave France…these CVs…are perceived as much more remarkable than…in France.” [25:20, Esteves]

Accumulation and Trigger Events

• Microaggressions:
  • Series of daily slights pushes people away over time.
    • “Succession of microaggressions that lead some to think, okay, well, it’s become unbearable.” [27:24, Esteves]
• Trigger Events:
  • Traumatic, national events (e.g. terrorist attacks, racist political statements) prompt sudden departures.
    • “When the Home Secretary made that joke…he was actually condoning, not even condoning, but even promoting that kind of racist joke all across the country.” [29:14, Esteves]
    • “The Nice terrorist attacks…they thought, well…we will feel and we will be even more…singled out for blame…so they decided to leave.” [31:18, Esteves]

Destinations and Patterns of Emigration

• Popular Destinations:
  • UK (most common), Canada, Emirates (Dubai).
  • Less-qualified emigrants tended towards North Africa, or increasingly, Turkey (where Erdogan has positioned Turkey as welcoming to French Muslims fleeing Islamophobia).
    • “Turkey serves…as a kind of magnet to quite a few of those French people…especially those that are not super highly qualified.” [37:23, Esteves]
• Religious Practice and Belonging:
  • France’s unique Islamophobia:
    • “It wasn’t seen as necessary for them…to actually go to a country that is a Muslim majority country. They felt…we can be Muslims in the UK and Canada in a way that we couldn’t possibly dream of in France.” [34:36, Esteves]
  • “The sheer banality of prayer rooms outside of France…is in itself an indication there is a major problem of Islamophobia in France.” [47:50, Esteves]

Expat Experience and National Attachment

• Bittersweet Diaspora:
  • Strong, ongoing emotional and familial attachments to France, despite discrimination:
    • “Most…feel a kind of a bitter debt to France…they talk about the social security, schooling system, but at the same time…the central fact of discrimination or Islamophobia.” [39:02, Esteves]
  • Connections maintained via family, news, and social networks. Feelings of pain and sometimes guilt at leaving family behind.
    • “They always feel that they need to get abreast of the news because of their own folks living in France.” [41:24, Esteves]
  • Paradoxically, those who left often become happier and more accomplished professionally, yet feel loss and displacement.

Noteworthy Surprises

• High Number of Converts:
  • Many French converts to Islam participated in the study, especially women, who often face unique discrimination after conversion.
    • “If you are a woman converting to Islam…all the people we talk to wear hijabs. Therefore they are labeled as or seen as enemies.” [44:33, Esteves]
• History in Hindsight:
  • Long-term émigrés only realized the extent of microaggressions post-factum.
    • “Feeling that some microaggressions were like part of daily life…never questioned that until…living away from France.” [46:10, Esteves]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Title’s Shift in Meaning:
  • “By changing one single, very small, very stupid word, like ‘or’ into ‘but’...the whole meaning has changed.” [05:48, Esteves]
• On Discrimination for Hijabi Women:
  • “If you wear a hijab in France, 90% of the time… the job market is virtually closed to you.” [08:57, Esteves]
• On Forced Emigration:
  • “They love French football teams. They have studied French history and literature. So there are many things about France that they are happy with. Yet they decide to leave France because…they have suffered various types of discrimination.” [08:17, Esteves]
• On the ‘Happy Diaspora’:
  • “Professionally, in many respects…they are a happy diaspora. But at the same time, there’s also a sense of pain and a sense of loss.” [43:27, Esteves]
• On Converts’ Unique Experiences:
  • “If you’re a man, you grow a beard, you look like a hipster…But if you are a woman converting to Islam…they wear hijabs. Therefore they are labeled as or seen as enemies.” [44:33, Esteves]

Important Segment Timestamps

• [01:24] — Origins of the project; team and personal motivation
• [04:20] — Title explanation and political context
• [09:28] — Research methodology and participant recruitment
• [14:16] — Key reasons for emigration (job market exclusion, discrimination)
• [20:58] — School-level discrimination and the myth of meritocracy
• [27:24] — Microaggressions and triggers for leaving
• [32:48] — Destinations of émigrés and why the UK is favored
• [38:52] — Diaspora feelings: attachment, debt, and ongoing ties to France
• [44:02] — Surprises: High number of converts; impact of time abroad
• [49:29] — New project teaser: Book on the MOVE organization in Philadelphia

Tone and Language

The conversation blends scholarly rigor with empathy, balancing critical insights with personal narratives and memorable anecdotes. Esteves is candid, detailed, and sometimes humorous; the tone is reflective, incisive, and deeply human throughout.

Conclusion

Esteves’ research offers a timely, deeply researched look at the “silent flight” of French Muslims—a population both attached to and estranged from their homeland by structural discrimination and daily microaggressions. The book delivers a humanized, nuanced analysis that challenges the prevalent myths of French colorblind meritocracy and invites further, less-biased study.

Listeners can find "France, You Love It but Leave It: The Silent Flight of French Muslims" from Polity (2025).