On Behalf of HR Realizing Its Necessary Potential - Not as a Complaint Department

Summary

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Podcast Summary: "On Behalf of HR Realizing Its Necessary Potential - Not as a Complaint Department"

Podcast: New Books Network – Real Transformations
Episode Date: August 6, 2026
Host: Julie Annixter (B) and Dan Hill (C)
Guest: Pat Garland (A), HR expert, author, instructor at Loyola’s Quinlan School of Business
Book Discussed: 33 Ways Not to Screw Up HR (Networlding)

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Episode Overview

This episode explores how Human Resources (HR) should transcend its reputation as merely a “complaint department” to become a transformative driver of business success. Pat Garland, drawing from decades of experience and her acclaimed book, argues that HR must be embedded in business strategy and culture, not just procedures and policies. The conversation blends practical advice, memorable anecdotes, and forward-looking insights about HR’s evolving role in organizations.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Rethinking HR’s Role and Reputation

• HR as More Than a Hall Monitor

  • Pat stresses that HR is too often perceived as the “corporate hall monitor” or a scapegoat for unpopular policies:
    • "In most companies, HR is the sort of corporate hall monitor, the guy who gets people in trouble... HR lets itself get put into the position as the complaint department. And that is not where HR can really make a difference in a business." [00:53]
  • Her vision: HR should drive organizational growth “through people and people practices,” ensuring accountability lies with leaders, not just HR staff.
  • HR must advocate for creating environments that encourage growth and success, not just enforce compliance.

• Knowing the Business

  • Successful HR requires deep understanding of business objectives:
    • "You have to start out by really knowing the business your HR solutions have to fit into the context of the business and the business objectives if they're going to be successful." [02:43]
  • Pat critiques HR professionals who roll out generic policies without understanding their organization’s needs.

Culture as the Real HR Foundation

• The “Blue Book” Philosophy

  • Annixter’s “Blue Book” exemplified a pragmatic, people-driven culture:
    • “The blue book was this little pamphlet... The vision of the blue Book was don't make things more complicated than they need to be. Keep your focus on the customer and the people who service the customer. And, you know, that's really what it's all about. Trust your people.” [05:30]
  • Minimal policies empowered people to take initiative and use judgment—job descriptions and org charts were intentionally left blank!
  • Promotions and roles were built around individual initiative and capability: “If you wanted responsibilities and you showed an ability to do them, you got them.” [06:51]
  • This philosophy shaped Pat’s approach and her book as “an HR version of the Blue Book.” [08:11]

• Combating Fiefdoms and Silos

  • Annixter’s leadership actively discouraged territorial subcultures:
    • “Fiefdoms often come about defensively to try to protect yourself from the other guy... That was really discouraged at Annixter. We had our political creatures like everybody else does, but they weren't successful... that kind of behavior was not rewarded.” [09:06]
  • Reward systems and coaching reinforced a unified, collaborative culture.

Coaching: The Heart of Empowering Leadership

• Developing Independent Managers

  • Pat’s preferred coaching style is Socratic, trusting that managers have answers:
    • “My coaching style assumes that the manager, or whoever it is, probably knows the answer somewhere deep down...And by the time I got done asking all the questions, the answer became obvious to the manager.” [10:15]
  • The result: managers who can problem-solve independently rather than rely on HR for every issue.

• Performance Reviews Done Right

  • Pat advocates for honest, direct performance discussions—including feedback on managers by their direct reports—but highlights the need for managers to be coached on handling potentially uncomfortable feedback [11:22].
  • She cautions against chilling the review process by having a third-party “referee” present, advocating instead for collecting well-rounded feedback informally [12:05-12:36].

The Power of Data-Driven HR

• Trust and Transparency Through Metrics
  • HR professionals must be “business people” who use data:
    • Pat discusses how she used regression analysis to reveal compensation practices rewarding tenure rather than performance [13:32-15:26].
    • “Once the leader saw that, he's like, oh my God, I didn’t realize we were doing that... Ultimately what the problem was was the leaders... were not very successful at having that conversation with the longer service people who needed to step up their performance.” [15:15]
  • Data provides leverage for HR to advocate persuasively for needed changes.

Strategic Hiring: Behavioral Fit Over Credentials

• Leveraging the Predictive Index
  • Pat’s favorite assessment tool for hiring is the Predictive Index (PI):
    • “It doesn't measure education, knowledge, anything like that, but it measures the behavior that is required for a job.” [15:55]
  • She emphasizes hiring for “where the work comes naturally” and gives a case where an employee’s behavioral tendencies led to a job redesign and eventual success [16:43-18:53].

Navigating HR for the Next Generation

• Coaching Millennials and Gen Z
  • Pat notes that students and young professionals are anxious and full of expectations (remote work, flexibility):
    • “They come into their first role with a whole list of expectations...guys, at the beginning of your career, you don't make the demands. You have to establish yourself, and then you've got some leverage to negotiate.” [19:25]
  • Emphasizes the need for trust, encouragement, and realism in career development.

The True Purpose of HR

• Garland’s “One Wish” for HR

  • “Be trustworthy and help build the business. Because when the business grows...there are opportunities for people to do meaningful work.” [20:56]
  • Encourages HR to focus on business results and organizational trust rather than bureaucracy.

• Empowering Talent and Risk-Taking

  • “See the opportunity. Don't. Don't sit back and wait to be picked. Raise your hand.” [21:42]
  • Annixter succeeded by letting people create value proactively, not by waiting for official job slots.

The Demands and Rewards of HR

• The Multifaceted, Often Underappreciated Role

  • Pat highlights the resilience, stamina, and emotional labor required in HR:
    • “HR is a very, very exhausting, tough job...nearly everywhere you go...one of the guys saw me walk in and he goes, oh, who's getting fired today? I had just saved him from being fired the day before, and he never knew it.” [22:05]
  • Dan Hill and Julie Annixter both note HR’s complex, multidisciplinary nature—is it “psychologist, lawyer, actuary, accountant”? [23:12-23:15]

• People at the Heart of Transformation

  • “You cannot make any change happen in any business, any transformation, any new strategy, unless you do it with and through the people.” – Julie Annixter [23:35]
  • Pat agrees wholeheartedly.

Forward-Looking Insights

• AI and the Future of HR
  • Pat’s urgent call: HR must be at the table for AI discussions, not only about technology adoption, but about culture and trust:
    • “AI does not create distrust...it really puts a spotlight on distrust that already exists in the organization.” [23:52]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Culture: “The lack of job descriptions...was emblematic of Annixter's refusal to standardize positions and therefore put people into boxes.” – Pat Garland [06:47]
• On Coaching: “Coaching was the only method you thought that really worked.” – Julie Annixter [10:03]
• On HR’s Perception: “I was in a sales office and one of the guys saw me walk in and he goes, oh, who's getting fired today? I had just saved him from being fired the day before, and he never knew it.” – Pat Garland [22:05]
• On Future Skills: “See the opportunity. Don't sit back and wait to be picked. Raise your hand.” – Pat Garland [21:42]
• On AI in HR: “AI does not create distrust...it really puts a spotlight on distrust that already exists in the organization.” – Pat Garland [23:52]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [00:53] – Redefining HR’s business impact
• [05:30] – The “Blue Book” organizational philosophy
• [09:06] – Combating silos and building cohesive leadership
• [10:15] – Pat’s coaching style and impact
• [13:32] – The role of data in HR credibility
• [15:55] – Predictive Index and behavioral hiring
• [19:25] – Managing the anxieties and expectations of Gen Z
• [20:56] – Pat Garland’s core wish for HR professionals
• [23:52] – HR’s critical role in AI adoption and organizational trust

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Key Takeaways

• HR should not be a back-office function or complaint center, but a business-driven, trustworthy partner.
• Culture, not policy, fuels organizational growth—trust, initiative, and common sense beat complexity.
• Coaching and developing independent, empowered managers pays long-term dividends.
• Data-driven approaches give HR influence and credibility with executive teams.
• Hiring should focus on behavioral attributes as much as on experience or credentials.
• Next-generation workers need both encouragement and real talk about workplace realities.
• HR must lead on critical topics like AI, ensuring technology supports trust and opportunity, not division.
• Above all, “see the opportunity... raise your hand”—true transformation springs from initiative at every level.

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Transcript

[A]

Welcome to the New Books Network.

[B]

Welcome to Real Transformations. I'm Julie Annixter.

[C]

And I'm Dan Hill.

[B]

And we are excited today to talk about business change from the inside out with Pat Garland, who is a Renaissance woman. She is an HR expert, She's an author. She is an instructor at Loyola's Quinlan School of Business. I happen to know she's also an equestrian. Pat, welcome.

[A]

Thank you. Thank you for that introduction.

[B]

Yeah. We're excited to have you talk about 33 ways not to screw up HR, which is a great book that you wrote a year or so back. I know you've been out on the speaking circuit talking about it. I know you pretty well, but nobody else does. So tell us, why did you write this book?

[A]

I wrote it because I wanted to memorialize a different approach to HR than what I see practiced in most organizations. In most companies, HR is the sort of corporate hall monitor, the guy who gets people in trouble. The department that managers can blame for stupid policies that they themselves asked for. And HR lets itself get put into the position as the complaint department. And that is not where HR can really make a difference in a business. We should be the department that encourages the growth and the success of the organization through people and through people practices and accomplishing that through our leaders. It's their responsibility, not the responsibility of a staff department to make these tough decisions.

[C]

So I love what you just said. And before I get to my serious question, I have to ask my more light hearted one, which is based on your equestrian interest, which are more stubborn and difficult to manage, horses or people?

[A]

People. Horses. There's, if you think about it, there's generally reason that they're doing what they're doing. They're uncomfortable, they're hot, they're tired, they're pastern, hurts, something like that. But they are a lot more complex.

[C]

Sure. Well, I love what you just said because I remember speaking at an HR conference in New Orleans and they had slotted me for the later in the afternoon and I said why? Emotions and behavior is everything. And he said, oh yeah, we've kind of been beaten down. We're accepting. We're mostly going to talk about benefit packages, compensation rates. And I said that's such a shame. And he said yeah, I know, I know, I know. So what have you found is instrumental in managing to get the executive's attention and give HR the role that it really deserves? And I suspect you were able to make happen in your various assignments over the years.

[A]

You have to start out by really knowing the business your HR solutions have to fit into the context of the business and the business objectives if they're going to be successful. If you're talking about recruiting, you have to know what sort of people you want to attract and promote. If you know, you have to know what qualities are going to make the business thrive. You have to know what results should be rewarded if you're going to develop compensation strategies. And I have been to HR conferences and saw on display HR people who did not understand their businesses and often complained about the business as if it were some sort of a nuisance that got in the way of their larger agenda of rolling out a policy manual, for example.

[B]

Well, speaking of businesses, you know, I can't go any further on this, in this interview without bringing up the fact that Pat and I worked together for several decades at Annexer International and it was a very different kind of company. I've still never found a culture quite like it. And Pat, remind me, were you the first HR person who came in through sort of the back door of benefits? How did that all work?

[A]

No, that was Bob Eck, who, as he himself said, promptly hired me because he didn't know how to do it. And he very quickly moved on to marketing. And I ended up being at that point the first and only true HR person. And what was fun about that was typical of Annexer. There was no policy that said before you do X you have to call hr. So I had to constantly demonstrate how I was bringing value into each situation. And within the first six months, the IT guys told me I had more calls incoming than any other person in corporate because there was a tremendous need for that kind of coaching. And what I learned is you have to sell it.

[B]

And just. Dan, I'm going to add a second question here. And what year was that that you joined?

[A]

1993.

[B]

Okay, so 1993, the company had roughly been in business for 30 plus years. And sales were what when you joined?

[A]

Oh God, I don't even remember.

[B]

Well, they were probably a billionaire, a billion plus.

[A]

So I think there were less than a billion at that point.

[B]

We can go back and figure it out. But here's the point. The company was insanely successful without hr. And I want, and this is sort of a double edged sword, why was it successful without hr and what were you able to bring that made it even more successful?

[A]

Well, it was the Blue book that was the culture. The blue book was this little pamphlet sized document that sort of set forth our philosophy as a company. And the vision of the blue Book was don't make things more complicated than they need to be. Keep your focus on the customer and the people who service the customer. And, you know, that's really what it's all about. Trust your people. They don't need policies to tell them common sense, which is what most businesses are about. You know, for example, we had a statement on cash flow. More should come in than goes out. We had a page for job descriptions. We had a page for organizational charts. Both those pages were blank. Those were my favorites. And the lack of job descriptions, that wasn't just an administrative practice. It was emblematic of Annexer's refusal to standardize positions and therefore put people into boxes. If you wanted responsibilities and you showed an ability to do them, you got them. And jobs were built around people, not. We didn't build jobs and then see if we could smash anybody into them. Using myself as an example, at one point, I had responsibility for benefits compensation, labor relations, and I was also an HR business partner to a sales division. I had experience in those areas, and I had the relationship with sales. So I asked for it, and it became my job. I thought that lack of policies was fabulous because the Blue Book really gave us a guide on how we behaved and made decisions. So in any given situation, I could focus on what's right, what's the right thing to do, instead of leafing through a policy manual that really didn't give you any opportunity to use your judgment. It made what we did simple, straightforward, and direct. And best of all, it put the judgment in the hands of employees at all levels. And that goes right down to the warehouse floor and right up to the VPs. But this is how this ties back into 33 Ways. The Blue Book and Annexer's approach to HR made me realize that in a lot of organizations, managers consult with HR as a way of insulating themselves from their own responsibilities. And someone to blame the outcome on that is HR said I could. I'm sure you're familiar with that attitude. So that culture fundamentally changed my approach to HR, and in the end, Annexer shaped my philosophy of HR's role in a business. And 33 Ways not to Screw Up HR is really a tribute to the Blue Book. It's in its own way, an HR version of the Blue Book.

[C]

Sure. Well, I'm glad you're bringing up culture. I really enjoyed your very spirited and also practical book. My time in the belly of the beast in corporate life was particularly with a $6 billion utility company. You talk about the conscience of the leadership. I'm interested because One of the things that was really going on there was subcultures. The gas division versus the electric division, certain stations, the nuclear site. They had very different subcultures that were like fiefdoms. Like you were in, you know, in Albania or Montenegro or something, run by warlords. How did you see in your time the ability to maybe break those? Not even silos, they were like fiefdoms. How to break those apart and try to make a more cohesive, conscience driven leadership team.

[A]

It all goes back to the blue book and the executive leadership and all the way down from there. Really believing in those principles and believing in trusting your people, that was what kept us marching to that same drummer instead of developing fiefdoms. And I think fiefdoms often come about defensively to try to protect yourself from the other guy that you think is threatening your fiefdom. That was really discouraged at Annixter. We had our political creatures like everybody else does, but they weren't successful. They might have stayed for a while, but they didn't get promoted. That kind of behavior was not rewarded. So you can talk all day long about what you want, but it's what you do that tells people what's going to get rewarded.

[C]

Okay, so the rewards and maybe some coaching was ways to try to avoid those fiefdoms staying intact.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

And I'm going to build on that because I loved your statement about coaching, that it was the only method you thought that really worked. So can you define your thoughts, process your thoughts about coaching?

[A]

My coaching style assumes that the manager, or whoever it is, probably knows the answer somewhere deep down inside, the manager knows more about this situation than I do. And so my coaching would be just asking questions to clarify the situation in my own mind. And by the time I got done asking all the questions, the answer became obvious to the manager. And what the manager walked away with is a thought process to solve his or her own problems. So this approach to HR developed managers that were very independent and didn't have to come to us for every little thing.

[C]

If I can stay with the managers, because I like to switch to that level. At one point in your book, you mentioned that in those annual reviews, performance reviews, the sometimes an often dreaded annual performance reviews, that the two parties should be ultimately prepared to discuss the manager's performance, since that's the person's boss, that strikes me as fraught territory. How does that get navigated successfully?

[A]

Again, it all comes back to behavior. If the manager is prepared for that conversation and has been coached not to react defensively and has been taught how to handle it. It'll go pretty well most of the time.

[C]

And do you see those?

[A]

I think I gave you an example of one that didn't go well, but

[B]

that's a different company.

[C]

Well, I did enjoy the sections called what really Happened. And I certainly, as I read them through, I thought about some incidents in my own life which I may or may not get to in the course of this interview. So do you ever have these reviews where there's a third party sitting in? Does that chill or improve the outcome?

[A]

I think it chills it myself.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

It implies that you need a referee.

[C]

What happens if it was colleagues or customer input? Because you do mention those vehicles for getting a fair, more comprehensive review.

[A]

I wouldn't anticipate that that person would actually be in the meeting.

[C]

Sure.

[A]

But that's information that the manager should, and frankly, the employee should be collecting to have that 360 degree look at what the person's contribution has been.

[B]

You know, I want to go back to culture and values because you joined the company, really, you were really the bona fide first HR person 30 years after the company had been in business and there was a culture of telling the truth to each other. You know, we make it sound, you know, it could sound soft or you trust people. You trusted them enough to tell them how you really felt. And I remember an interview that we did with Bob Grubbs, who was one of our great CEOs, who said, Look, I had to work there too. I wanted to be in a place where we could just talk to each other. Right. And we also were a very data driven company. And you said that HR people need to be business people now. Salespeople knew every day what they'd sold the warehouse, knew what it had shipped. So talk a little bit about HRs need to really be data driven because that's also part of building trust.

[A]

I used data a lot in my compensation practices. I think I talk in the book about the concept of pay for performance and having a discussion with an executive who. I was absolutely convinced that we were not paying for performance when I first got there. But I wasn't getting any traction at the top. So I'm like, okay, I'll go one layer down and see if I can get it there, because that was the way you did things. And I asked this particular leader if he thought they were paying for performance and he said, oh, absolutely. So I went and pulled the data and it was salespeople, which makes it a lot easier because the data is very easy to access and every success is very quantifiable. And what I discovered was that not only were we not paying for performance, we were paying inverse for performance, because what we were paying for was length of service. And at the same time, we had really allowed some of our long service salespeople to basically retire on the job. So the longest service people at that point were the, were the lowest performers in this particular sales group. And that was very demoralizing to the newer people who were not getting compensated appropriately. So, and, you know, and what grows out of that is, first of all, I did a regression analysis to do that. I love statistics. And once, once the leader saw that, he's like, oh my God, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't realize we were doing that. So, okay, so now I know where the correlation is. It's not what you want. So let's talk about what the problem is. And ultimately what the problem was was the leaders in the organization were not very successful at having that conversation with the longer service people who needed to step up their performance.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So how to define the problem?

[C]

Yeah, I used to be in academia, so if we got into talking about tenure and what that does to probably 75% of people's performance versus the other 25 who stay united with passion. Speaking about hiring selection, you mentioned something that I'd love to hear a bit more about. You said your favorite tool was the predictive index. What in the world is this predictive index? How does it work? What are the components?

[A]

Predictive index is a tool for measuring behavioral tendencies. It doesn't measure education, knowledge, anything like that, but it measures the behavior that is required for a job. So, for example, is this a job where you have to be individualistic or more team oriented? Is this a job where you have to be more people oriented or task oriented? Is this a job that you have to be methodical, or is it a job where you have to be intense and pivotal very quickly and good under pressure? Is it a job where you are, and I'm actually taking you through the ABCD factors? Is it a job where you have, where you have to be very, very risk averse, or is it a job where you have to be comfortable taking risks? And what I loved about PI was it, it was very good at measuring things that were hard to get at in an interview sometimes, because the whole concept of PI was, is hire people for whom the work comes naturally. And that was a very annexer kind of philosophy too. So don't hire for 20 years of experience at a different organization that probably did things differently. Hire for the behavioral characteristics that are going to make you successful in this job. I could have an example I could give you that was classic. Sure, Julia, you're an example. Now, the. The situation, and this is a coaching situation, I had a manager call me up and say, because managers always ask the question they think is relevant, but it's not always the right question. The question was, can I hold a warehouse associate, in other words, a forklift driver, accountable for productivity by hour instead of by day? Why would you want to do that? And he said, well, I've got this one associate, and she wastes a lot of time. She walks around talking to her co workers, and then she does all of her tasks in this huge burst of energy at the end of the day, and it's interrupting everybody else's work. And, okay, is her work good? Is her work accurate? Yeah, she does great work. I'm like, okay, well, let's take a look at what her PI was. Well, guess what? Instead of the typical warehouse associate, where you wanted somebody who was very methodical and very task focused, she was very outgoing and was at her best under pressure. So what she did was she remade her job in order to use the qualities that she had that she enjoyed. And they're good qualities. They just were not good in that job. So instead of reprimanding her for being the person she was, we used those qualities and we made her a facility trainer. And she was tremendously successful.

[B]

You know, of course I enjoy looking at all the things that made Annixter a great culture, but I want to look forward for the rest of our call. And I know you've been teaching. No, no, I'm the one who brought it up. I mean, what can you think? But I know you've been, because I talk to you a lot. I know you've been teaching the next generation of people who want to go into business. And with everything going on, AI, everything, what is your sense of how we need to be thinking about coaching, developing, managing the next generation? What are your insights there?

[A]

If my students are an example, which I'm going to guess they are, they're very anxious. They're very worried about things like AI and what is this going to do to our jobs? So I think this generation, maybe more than past generations, is going to need a lot of encouraging and they appreciate when trust is placed in them. And certainly my students work very hard. They make a tremendous effort. So that's there. They're very worried about the job market. But at the same time, and I have chided this, chatted them about this, they come into their first role with a whole list of expectations. I want to work from home. I want this, I want this, I want this. And I've said to them, guys, at the beginning of your career, you don't make the demands. You have to establish yourself, and then you've got some leverage to negotiate. But you may not be able to walk in and get everything you want right off the bat. But a lot of very smart young people coming up through this university.

[B]

Pat, there's, you know, 33 ways not to screw up HR. What's the one? What do they all add up to? If you had a wish for HR people so that they could have the kind of amazing career or you've. I know you've had a ton of fun and I know you've made a huge impact. What's your one wish for HR people, or leaders, for that matter, of HR people?

[A]

Be trustworthy and help build the business. Because when the business grows or the organization grows and is resilient and is successful, then there are opportunities for people to do meaningful work.

[B]

And I know, because I've lived it with you, that as you said, we didn't have job descriptions. And in today's world, Tom Peters used to say, 10 years from now, there won't be any of the same jobs. Jobs are changing all the time. How do you speak about, you know, how should we be thinking about talent and skills and empowering people to bring those skills forward as opposed to waiting for a job? You know, there were people that we knew who built entire businesses out of their desk drawer in an instant because they saw an opportunity.

[A]

Right? Yeah. And that's, that's the key. You just said it. See the opportunity. Don't. Don't sit back and wait to be picked. Raise your hand.

[B]

And that takes certain intestinal fortitude. It takes confidence, it takes passion. And one of the things that I loved in the 33 ways was safeguard morale. Yours.

[A]

So HR is a very, very exhausting, tough job. I don't think people appreciate how difficult it is because nearly everywhere you go, you identify yourself as an HR person. This is something I think I mentioned in the book. I was in a sales office and one of the guys saw me walk in and he goes, oh, who's getting fired today? I had just saved him from being fired the day before, and he never knew it. I had saved his job, and this was the crack that he made. I wanted to get very angry, but hey, that's his attempt at humor.

[C]

Well, one of my tennis buddies is in HR was in his career. He also happens to be Dutch, and the Dutch are famously blunt. So he was brought into all sorts of difficult situations. And being a guy who's well over 6ft tall, he probably could hold his own in some of those jets. Yeah, it's not an easy job. You mentioned that it requires being a psychologist, a lawyer, an actuary, an accountant. I mean. Yeah, what a tough, varied assignment.

[B]

Except that those are all the skills we all use in our families.

[C]

Right. So.

[B]

So what, what is. I. I want to make sure we kind of foot stomp this as we wrap up the interview. You know, Dan and I both believe, and I'm quite certain you do, too, that you cannot make any change happen in any business, any transformation, any new strategy, unless you do it with and through the people. It's always got to start with people.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Right. And. And absolutely. So today, Pat, given where you are, and I know you're out, you're consulting and you're on panels, you're teaching, you're doing some more writing as you look out into the world, what are some of the opportunities that you see for HR people right now?

[A]

Right now, the HR people should be at the table when AI is being discussed, both from the standpoint of how deeply are we going to use this technology, but even more important, how is it going to be rolled out? AI does not create distrust even. It really puts a spotlight on distrust that already exists in the organization.

[C]

So

[A]

that's the one that comes to mind immediately because that is such a hot topic right now.

[B]

Well, I hope that we get millions of people to read your book, 33 Weeks not to Screw Up HR by Pat Garland, published by Networlding.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Wonderful friend, Melissa. And there's some other great 33 Ways books in that series. But, Pat, this has been an absolute delight and pleasure, and I will put in, as I said, a shameless punch for the book you and I are writing about, the Blue Book. And Dan, I haven't told you yet, but you're going to have to interview Pat and I down the road.

[C]

Okay. It's a pleasure to meet you, Pat.

[A]

Likewise. Thank you for having me.

[B]

Yeah, Pat, absolutely a delight. Thank you so much. And everybody go out and get the book and read it. 33 ways not to screw up HR for. From somebody who really understands what that means, Pat Garland.

[A]

Well, because I've screwed it up myself.

[B]

Fabulous. Thank you so much.

[A]

Thank you.