On “Turtling” Versus Being Primed for Possibilities

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Real Transformations – “On ‘Turtling’ Versus Being Primed for Possibilities”

New Books Network
Date: July 9, 2026
Host: Julie Annixter (B) & Dan Hill (C)
Guest: Tissa Richards (A), author of Rethinking Resilience

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Overview

This episode explores the concept of resilience in today’s business world, propelled by Tissa Richards’ new book, Rethinking Resilience. The discussion navigates how traditional definitions of resilience—focused on simply “bouncing back” from adversity—are insufficient for the fast-evolving workplace. Richards argues for a more actionable, future-focused resilience that enables people and organizations not just to survive, but to seek opportunities and innovation amidst uncertainty. Key elements of her “resilience flywheel” model (communication, cadence, conviction, curiosity, community, etc.) are discussed, along with memorable stories and practical strategies for leaders.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Why Rethinking Resilience?

• Outdated Definitions: Richards explains her motivation for writing the book, describing fatigue with the conventional narrative of resilience as simply “bouncing back” from adversity.
  • "I've been told to bounce back. I don't know how to sort of navigate this much disruption and uncertainty. And I realized that the definition of resilience that we all have grown up with ... is just not working for the times that we live in anymore.” [00:43, A]
• Forward-Focused Approach: She wanted to offer a model that is “much, much more productive and much more useful” for individuals and organizations today. [00:49, A]

Key Components of the Resilience Flywheel

1. Communication

   • Importance in navigating uncertainty, especially post-pandemic work changes.
   • “A lot of people tend to default—I call it turtling—they sort of turtle their heads in when things are not certain. And I actually think that you need to communicate more, even if you don’t know the answer. ... That is a communication.” [02:43, A]
   • Communication transmits trust, not just information.

2. Cadence

   • Foundational and often overlooked: “It's not always about how fast you go. It's the right speed at the right time for the right moment.” [03:56, A]

   • Over-emphasis on speed is unhelpful; effective leaders set the right pace.

   • Dan Hill’s Media Analogy: “You’re trying to press in and you’re shouting at your consumers. You don’t shout at your friends. ... The tonality and the pace is just totally off-putting. You have to fix this if you want to be effective.” [04:03, C]

3. Conviction

   • Importance of knowing and acting on your values, especially as a leader. [03:57, A]

4. Building a Culture of Confidence

   • Julie highlights how many organizations lack confidence due to heightened anxiety, AI changes, etc. The solution: “intentional resilience as a mindset for leaders.” [04:45, B]

5. Curiosity

   • Essential for innovation and tackling ambiguity, especially in the context of AI and rapid change.
   • “One of the big things I talk about is curiosity and how it leads to innovation. ... If you don’t have that as a part of your culture, this is why you are where you are.” [12:41, A]

6. Iteration & Prototyping

   • Embracing ongoing learning and “muscle building” for resilience through consistent prototyping and iteration.
   • “To me, iteration is actually muscle building. And I think resilience is a muscle. ... As long as you are intentionally learning, figuring out what the envelope is and then applying it to the next thing, then you’re not failing—you’re not being defeated by it.” [09:14, A]

Notable Concepts and Quotes

• Turtling: The tendency to withdraw or default to silence during uncertainty.

  • Memorable and illustrative; Dan jokes he’ll “hold on to the word turtling for the rest of the day.” [28:32, C]

• Intentional Resilience

  • Shifting resilience from a reactive stance (to adversity) to a proactive one (primed for opportunities).
  • Julie: “She’s created this whole ecosystem, this whole new view of intentional resilience. It’s not this sometimes thing ... it’s actually foundational, like the ground that you want leaders and teams to walk on.” [08:13, B]

• Failure Versus Defeat

  • Tissa: “Failure is information, Defeat is judgment.” [07:10, A]
    • “If you think that you’ve been defeated, then you’re making a judgment call that you’re choosing not to take those as lessons and move forward from them. So ... failure is actually a beautiful learning ground.” [07:17, A]
  • Dan: "There’s no success like failure, and failure is no success at all." (quoting Bob Dylan) [08:02, C]

• Normalizing Failure

  • Example: Julia Anderson, Campbell’s CIO, had her team share failures in meetings, making it routine and unpunishable to foster learning and confidence. [15:35, A]

• “Prickly Pear Console”

  • A method to handle interpersonal issues and friction, which, when normalized, empowers teams to resolve conflicts at the peer level. [17:22, A]

• The “Read Me” Exercise

  • Like “read me” files for hardware, Tissa suggests leader self-disclosure of information and communication preferences to reduce friction and build better teams.
    • "We would create those so that if you’re really different from other people, you can quickly get up to speed on them. ... It’s a fun team building exercise." [19:57, A]

• The Role of Emotions

  • Emotions are signals, not weaknesses; leaders should model allowing and processing emotions instead of suppressing them.
  • “Leaders who are intentionally resilient don’t suppress their emotions. They allow them, they allow change to happen through them and not to them.” [20:00, B]

• Community as Resilience

  • “Resilience is a team sport.” Community isn’t just support; it’s an amplifier for growth, survival, and opportunity.
  • “This is very true. You need to have your personal board of advisors ... that’s what’s going to give you—literally, it floats all boats.” [22:45, A]

• Mentorship vs. Sponsorship

  • Valuable networks involve advocates who actively mention your name when you’re not in the room. [24:54, A]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I call it turtling—they sort of turtle their heads in when things are not certain. And I actually think that you need to communicate more, even if you don’t know the answer.”
  – Tissa Richards [02:43]
• “Failure is information, Defeat is judgment.”
  – Tissa Richards [07:10]
• “Resilience is a team sport.”
  – Tissa Richards (quoting Darren Wolter) [22:45]
• “Leaders who are intentionally resilient don’t suppress their emotions. They allow change to happen through them and not to them.”
  – Julie Annixter [20:00]
• “It’s not always about bad stuff. I think you need resilience to also be primed and looking for opportunity and innovation.”
  – Tissa Richards [05:40]
• “Iterating is actually muscle building. ... As long as you are intentionally learning ... then you’re not being defeated by it.”
  – Tissa Richards [09:14]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Why the Book? [00:43–01:49]
• Resilience Flywheel Components: [02:21–05:27]
• Culture of Confidence, Challenges for Leaders: [04:45–05:27]
• Failure vs. Defeat: [06:54–08:13]
• Intentional Resilience & Iteration: [08:44–10:41]
• Learning Budget Shifts: [10:41–12:12]
• Curiosity, AI, and Innovation: [12:41–14:04]
• Operationalizing Psychological Safety: [15:04–17:07]
• “Prickly Pear Console” & Handling Conflict: [17:07–19:57]
• Emotion & Authentic Leadership: [20:00–21:28]
• Community as a Resilience Multiplier: [22:45–24:54]
• Alumni Networks & Legacy Talent: [25:43–26:56]
• Wish for Leaders (Closing Reflections): [27:13–28:29]

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Practical Takeaways

• Communicate, even when unsure: Leaders should model openness and honesty—“I don’t know” builds trust.
• Cadence matters: Set the right pace—slower or faster as needed.
• Iterate and learn: Normalize experimentation, failure, and collective learning.
• Empower all layers: Don’t ignore the “messy middle”—support learning at all levels.
• Make space for curiosity and innovation: Remove penalties for failure and actively create opportunities for exploring new ideas.
• Leverage community: Build networks of advisors, mentors, and sponsors; nurture organizational and alumni ties.
• Anchor in values: Know your “why” to withstand turbulence.

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Final Words

Tissa Richards urges leaders to fundamentally rethink and operationalize resilience—not just as a defense mechanism, but as a proactive, inclusive, and community-centered practice. By focusing on communication, cadence, curiosity, and community, organizations can move from “turtling” to being primed for innovation and growth, even in uncertain times.

“You can’t be intentional if you don’t know what you’re being intentional about.” [27:13, A]

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Transcript

[A]

Welcome to the New Books Network.

[B]

I'm Julie Annixter.

[C]

And I'm Dan Hill.

[B]

And this is Real Transformations, where we talk about what it really takes to make business change happen from the inside out. And today I'm so thrilled that we have my friend and a really incredible thinker and doer, so somebody who's facilitating real transformations out there in the world, Tissa Richards. So welcome, Tysa.

[A]

Thank you. I'm so excited to be here. I've been looking forward to that.

[B]

We've been looking forward to. And I'm just going to start by asking you, and of course I know your backstory, but others don't. Like, why did you write this book?

[A]

So I wrote Rethinking Resilience because I was getting really tired. I wrote it both for myself and from what I was hearing from people. Um, I think if we. If I heard one more time the words, oh, we're in unprecedented times, you know, clearly that's our new normal. But I was just hearing so many people say, like, it's. I feel like I'm failing at resilience. I've been told to bounce back. I don't know how to sort of navigate this much disruption and uncertainty. And I realized that the definition of resilience that we all have grown up with and the one that's in the dictionary and is just not working for the times that we live in anymore. And I just thought, there has to be a way to think about this for going forwards that is much, much more productive and much more useful. And so I sort of unpacked it, rethought it, repackaged it and put it out there. And. And I think based on just what people have come to say, yeah, this feels so much more. This feels so much more. Right. So. So that. That was why I wrote it.

[C]

So speaking of the times we're in, I wanted to ask you, you know, we've had people work from home, then they're back in the office. Some people liked one direction, some people liked the other direction. A lot of resistance, confusion. What would you say in the last four or five years, are there certain of these seven components on your flywheel that really have, you know, you have a long career, a lot of experience. Have there certain components that have really moved to the forefront, say, in the last half decade as opposed to across the span of your career?

[A]

Do you mean for me personally or what I'm seeing with.

[C]

Well, I would go both angles. Both for yourself. But certainly what you've seen tied in as you Remarkably, are into the workplace.

[A]

Yeah, I think a couple of them for sure. I think that communication, you know, obviously. Right. Whether it's return to work or stay at home or whatever it is,

[B]

I

[A]

think that a lot of people tend to default. I call it turtling. They sort of. They like turtle their heads in when things are not certain. And I actually think that you need to communicate more, even if you don't know the answer. And that's a. That's a really great leadership trait is even if your answer is I don't know, that is a communication. And I think communication is more than just the information you're transmitting, it's also about transmitting trust. And so whether it's intergenerationally or across new technologies or things like that. So I've seen teaching people how to communicate in a way that builds trust has been, I think, never more important, especially trust is being eroded everywhere. One that's really interesting to me too is cadence. It was a bit of a surprise to me that I added it to the flywheel, but I saw it come out in all the interviews I was doing. And I just realized I've been a software founder. Hustle culture in Silicon Valley, all that. It's not always about how fast you go. It's the right speed at the right time for the right moment. And sometimes the cadence is also saying to people, I'm going to take a pause on this and think about it. Or it's not always about moving fast. Sometimes it's about moving slow, sometimes it's. Someone says, how long is a piece of string?

[C]

Sure.

[A]

So those two have been sort of interesting to me and I think also conviction, knowing your values.

[C]

Yeah. No, I like the emphasis on cadence because I've tested a number of radio spots for different people agencies over time. And I came back to them finally, said, you know, they are going so fast with the script. You're trying to press in and you're shouting at your consumers. You don't shout at your friends. You talk to them, you whisper to them, you listen to them. The tonality and the pace is just totally off putting. You have to fix this if you want to be effective.

[A]

Yeah. And isn't that interesting, Dan, because that, that's about cadence and communication both. Like, it's just. That's why I think none of these are. None of these are in a vacuum. None of them are silent. Right. It's all. They're all really interconnected. Yeah.

[C]

Julie back.

[B]

I'll build on that and say that. Yeah. I loved the phrase Building a culture of confidence. Because that's what I don't see in so many organizations today, particularly right now. The level of fear and anxiety, for all the obvious reasons, AI et cetera, is, is it just feels so much more intense than it has in the past. So I think the big idea that I took from the book was intentional resilience as a mindset for leaders. So I would love to ask you, because you've worked with so many different kinds of leaders, what's the biggest challenge that leaders are facing if they want to bring in the flywheel and the intentional resilience to help teams build confidence? What are the challenges you see?

[A]

Yeah, and that was something I was really. I needed to think about. How do you sort of say, the way we've been taught resilience is that it's a reaction to a bad thing, that that's what you're bouncing back. But you're bouncing. What are you bouncing back to?

[C]

Right.

[A]

That becomes very much about something happens to you. And this is very much about, let's just change that whole thing. First of all, it's not always about bad stuff. I think you need resilience to also be primed and looking for opportunity and innovation. And that's a huge part about value creation for a company. And just as an individual and as a leader and in your personal life. And so I think this is especially true right now. So AI is not, quote unquote, just a threat. It's a huge, huge opportunity. It's how you're seeing it. And so I think it's about what kinds of questions are you asking? How are you unpacking it? How are you taking the time to sit down with your team and say, we know you're afraid of X or yeah, we are too. For example, a lot of it's just about, like, put people out of their comfort zones and a lot of trust. I mean, I know this, I know this might sound a little trite, but we love to pay lip service to sort of the cultures we build. And then if it's just a beautiful sign on your wall, then you're not actually going to get anywhere with it. So it's like, how are you actually going to operationalize this stuff into your culture? And that's a big part of what I wanted in the book, is that it was going to be very actionable. Otherwise, I get annoyed if something's not actionable. And I don't want my reader to have an annoying experienced.

[C]

Fair enough. Well, speaking of readership, I'm A sucker for good phrases and turns of art. So you have a statement I really enjoyed. Failure is information, Defeat is judgment. Can you unpack that for myself and our listeners?

[A]

Yeah, I had forgotten I wrote that. I think it's really quite lovely.

[C]

Yeah, I thought so too.

[A]

I think at it, right. When you think about it, I mean, look, as a founder, you fail a lot. Somebody told me once, hey, I think you really don't. You don't learn much from. When, from. From success. What do you learn? You learn to manage your money. You outsource that. You might learn to manage your ego. Most people never really figure that out if they have big success. So you actually, all you're learning is in failure, right. As long as you don't conflate it with defeat. And if you think that you've been defeated, then you're making a judgment call that you're choosing not to take those as lessons and move forward from them. So I think really, to me, failure is actually a beautiful learning ground. It's so beautiful as long as you are building on it. And so defeat is really the opposite of failure to me, not winning or success.

[C]

Okay. Of course, I then think of the Bob Dylan famous line, there's no success like failure, and failure is no success at all. But anyway, Julie, I stepped on your line. Go ahead.

[B]

No, you can quote Bob Dylan anytime. And you know that, Dan. You know, there were parts of the book where I just had to kind of stop and say to myself, she's created this whole ecosystem, this whole new view of intentional resilience. It's not this sometimes thing. Hope I have it, need to pull on it. It's actually foundational, like the ground that you want leaders and teams to walk on. And I guess I'm wondering

[C]

the role

[B]

that you talked about. We live in a world of constant iteration. And having been in the design business and the innovation business for a long time, you know, prototyping to me is one of the greatest skill sets and greatest doors that you can go through. Prototyping, to me, is one of the greatest doors that you can go through. And you talked about this culture of constant iteration. Can you talk a little bit more about how that leads to intentional resilience or. Or intentional resilience supports that.

[A]

Yeah, I think. Right. I mean, I think for. Look, I'm a recovering perfectionist, remember? I remember one of the. Probably the best. I mean, a great example of that is literally my parents trying to pay me not to get like a 4o GPA all through high school. And College because they're like, that's not really useful. But it's hard when you're a perfectionist. And I remember getting a mug from them one Christmas that said, strive for excellence, not perfection, because the second one doesn't exist. And I was like, well, I could prove you wrong on this, but I think, like it. So to me, iteration is actually muscle building. Right? And I think resilience is a muscle. So if you're constantly iterating and you're constantly building that muscle, then you're looking, what is iteration other than saying, okay, we're not. We're not there yet. We're getting there, we're getting there. And then you're pivoting. So it's actually a really great muscle to build because you may not even know what the desired end state is right now. Do we know the end state of AI in the workplace? Do we know what the next generation of leadership is going to look like? Considering that, I think it's going to start collapsing. A lot of age hierarchies and things we don't, all we can do is iterate as we go and learn from them. I think it is really tied to this idea of intentional resilience, because as long as you are intentionally learning, figuring out what the envelope is and then applying it to the next thing, then you're not failing. You're not. You're not being defeated by it. You are. You're making constant improvements.

[C]

You want me to jump in? Okay. I was intrigued. One of our previous guests had mentioned they're seeing a real shift toward the learning, because you just mentioned learning, the learning budget going even more so to the executives and away from the middle managers. Have you seen that? Do you have any perspective on why that might be happening? Is that a good thing, a bad thing?

[A]

I have seen that, too. And I don't know if I've seen the gap grow, but I've seen that for the past decade, and I think it's a real shame. There's no question that we want to invest in management, but I think that especially the next generation of leadership, we've got to be investing in everybody. But I think that this can be democratized a little bit when you think about it, because I think there's a lot of ways to invest in Julie, you know, Lorraine Hendrickson, we all know and love her, somebody very dear to both of us. He called it the messy middle. And he said, like we tend to ignore in corporate America, we ignore the middle. We invest a lot at the top. We do a lot of onboarding for people new in the workforce, but we ignore everybody in the middle. And that's really a shame because that is the next generation of leadership. But I think that with automation, with AI, there might be ways to bring down the cost of investing in development. And I think there's ways we can see it not as a threat, but we've got to invest in those groups as well. But I'm seeing companies that are doing that.

[B]

You know, one of our mutual friends who will go nameless told me about two different corporate clients that she has, very big names, very big brands. And one of them is gone very carefully and slowly into AI and is trying to train the executives on it. And the other has unleashed it to every employee and said, figure it out. And both are trying to sort through. And I'm curious where you see intentional resilience and AI given that it is such a mess right now. Where do you see that playing in?

[A]

Yeah, we opened up by talking about it's a mess, but that's my first answer. But my more detailed answer is it's, you know, one of the elements I put on the flywheel is curiosity. Right. And I remember going in to do a workshop with a company that was in a huge amount of flux just. And it had been quarter after quarter after quarter of just so much change and uncertainty. And they asked for just an outline of what I was going to talk about. And I said, okay, well, one of the big things I talk about is curiosity and how it leads to innovation. And they said, this is verbatim, you know, we don't have any processes for innovation and curiosity, so we'd like you to take that out. And he said, I don't actually care if you don't have like a change order form for curiosity. I'm keeping it in. And if you don't have that as a part of your culture, this is why you are where you are. And then maybe it's a good thing that you don't have like a 10 step program to convince or show people how to be curious. We're starting from like a totally blank piece of paper, which I know you would love as a designer. I think this is a great way to spark what can you do right now? And what is work going to look like? What is everything going to look like? So it's scary, but it's also what's the flip side of any opportunity is a challenge, Right? There's always a flip side and a way to look at it.

[B]

Yeah, I want to Follow up, Dan, with this question.

[C]

Sure, go ahead.

[B]

If I can. Because you're striking such a deep chord in me. I have been privileged to work in a couple of companies that were absolutely. Companies. Cultures of confidence. Cultures that trusted employees in what was once my family's business. An engineer, Don Patton, started selling connectors out of his desk drawer in Evanston because the client needed them. Somebody else sold something to an oil rig in Scotland and took a credit card when we didn't take credit cards yet. And all of that led to new ways of doing business and new business models and profit and growth. But what makes me sad, honestly, about workplaces, and I've seen this across federal and military and commercial and nonprofit, is the lack of permission leaders give people to come with their ideas. So I guess if you're going to advise a leader who's stepping into a new role or wants to build greater confidence and not just do the lip service and the stuff on the wall, how do you help them take the

[A]

steps towards doing that, towards fostering more curiosity and innovation. Yeah.

[B]

More confidence. Creating a space in their company for people to have the confidence to share their ideas that simply.

[A]

Absolutely.

[C]

Permission.

[A]

Yeah, Permission. Yeah. This I really love. I want to. I actually want to credit. Is it okay to, like, talk about specific people and examples?

[C]

Sure.

[B]

I mean, of course. Of course, of course. And, you know, redhead, you can talk about anything.

[A]

And. But I did promise to keep my language less salty. But. But. So Julie, you know, Julia Anderson. And Julia is a great CIO Chief Digital officer. And when she was at Campbell's, I interviewed her for the book, and she, you know, one of the things she told me of all. It's like, you have to make failure. I mean, now we're moving away from failure versus defeat, but you have to make failure something that is not punishable. Nobody's afraid of it, and actually turn it into a learning experience. And so instead of sharing wins in her team meeting, she would ask people to share their failures so that it became just so normalized. And it also reduced the learning loop for everybody else. Okay, that. Great. Now we know either not to do that or how to tweak it. And I think by just normalizing things, like, okay, we tried this. It didn't work. Or I never thought about trying that. Oh, Julie, you're on. You're on mute. Oh, okay. But, yeah, I mean, I think that literally creating a space, create hackathons, create, you know, carve out. And this. This is why I actually think AI is so beautiful, because you're Creating time. You can automate more. It may seem like we don't have as much time, but I think if you could automate part of your work and now you've got two or three extra hours in the week, that should be like exploration, innovation, time, but you have to support it. So as a leader, I think also being a role model for that, which is, here's the time I failed. Share it. Make it part of your language so that nobody's afraid to put up their hand and say, oh, I tried something too, and it didn't work.

[C]

So in terms of addressing failures, maybe this relates, maybe it doesn't. But you bring up the term the prickly pear console. I was most intrigued by that. I wanted to maybe have you offer an example, a story, something along those lines.

[A]

That's also Julia from Campbell's. And so what they did is when things couldn't be resolved quickly at the peer level, they would sort of bring it up to a little bit higher in her team or her organization. And it wasn't necessarily failure, but it was just things that were getting sticky or prickly. And I think the idea there was that as they normalized having conversations like that, what I loved, I knew in the interview, I knew that this was a story that had to be told. She said eventually we didn't need it, because, sure, people realized that they could. Instead of elevating this and escalating it, they were learning and giving themselves the tools on how to do this lower down in the organization, between themselves at the peer level. And I think this is, again, it's about role modeling. Hey, look, we can help you do it up here. Now you have the tools. You can take it back to your teams, your peers. I think just you're normalizing a lot of behaviors. Curiosity, innovation, conflict, or how to handle conflict, how to have those hard conversations. She's just. I think so much of Julia's interview was left on the cutting room floor because she has such great examples here.

[C]

Yeah, no, I can well imagine what happens when it's not so much a learning opportunity as, frankly, it's just a. A turf battle, a personality conflict. It's rather political. How do those get handled and get separated from these learning opportunities out of quote, unquote, failures?

[A]

I think it's a good question, Dan. Right. But I mean, I would not think that they're even separate, because if you realize it's a turf battle or you realize that the way you process information or your personality is really different. I used to do as a leader and this is a very popular workshop. Even beyond my tenure as a CEO was the Read me's. And this goes back, I mean, I'm dating myself where things weren't necessarily all AI, but every time you bought a new server or a new piece of hardware, it literally came with a Read me document. It was like, read me, all the information you need is here. And I thought we all need a readme about ourselves, right? Like, here's how I like to give information and receive information and stupid stuff. Like before 9am I'm really not that delightful. So if possible, maybe try and schedule calls with me after. Or I like a pre read, send me something and then I'm great. Then I'm up to speed. Other people, they don't need to pre read. And so we would create those so that if you're really different from other people, you can quickly get up to speed on them. And now the friction is greatly reduced. It's a fun team building exercise. I do it all the time.

[C]

Yeah, no, I, I, I like that.

[B]

I love it.

[C]

I can see that.

[B]

I love it. And I'm so glad you brought it up because the other thing in the book that really struck me this time was leaders who are intentionally resilient don't suppress their emotions. They allow them, they allow change to happen through them and not to them. So say a little bit about the role of sort of emotions in the way you think about this, because I know Dan will have something to say too.

[A]

Yeah, well, that whole philosophy I'd love to talk about too, that idea of through me versus to me or through you versus to you. But I do think, look, we're here humans, right? Like, I don't think we can go to the, go into the workforce and just be an automaton, right? There's days where you're tired or there's things happening. And a lot of this, I think, came as a founder when there were days where I was just so exhausted and I would just, I would be so raw. And I thought, I don't think I can hide this. I should probably share this and let people know how I'm feeling. And that's the human part. I think human leadership, we throw the word authenticity around a lot. I actually think it's, it's losing its meaning as it gets overused. But this is a little bit about that. Like, if you can show your team how you lead, why you lead that way you're setting an example. And if part of it is, hey, I just want to let you all know I'm really tired today, or I had a really hard thing going on in this part of my life. That's great. It's part of your read me in a way, isn't it? It's just a more temporal part of your read me. I don't see any downside to it.

[C]

Yeah, no, I think that's for sure.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, I've had the pleasure of knowing you for a number of years now, and I just. I want to kind of begin to close our wonderful conversation with the C that is community. And you talk about resilience. You know, I was working on a deal with Tom Peters, and by the way, that's how I met Dan 20 years ago at a Tom Peters event. We were trying to do a deal with Salesforce with a wonderful guy there, and through him, we met a wonderful woman, a mutual friend of ours, Karen Mangia. Well, the deal just didn't work out for a lot of different reasons, and we spent months on it, and we thought it was gonna be the thing that was gonna be the next big thing while it wasn't. And then we tried to do a number of things with Karen, and for lots of different reasons. You know, it just. It was great to meet her, but we didn't. And then she introduced me to you. And what I've observed about you, Tissa, in the four or five years that I've known you is that you have been extremely intentional and had a lot of conviction about going out into the world and sharing what you know about resilience. And a big part of what I think has empowered you or given you. Given loft to your wings is the community that you've built. So community is not just a buzzword. In fact, for you and I, it's very real. So maybe say a little bit about the role of community in intentional resilience.

[A]

Yeah, No, I really. I really love that you touched on this. I interviewed Darren Wolter for the book, and I. I think he said it best. He said. I don't think he said. I think resilience is a team sport, because when you think about the traditional definition, it's like you go through something hard, you bounce back. It's like the lone hero mythology. Right. But I don't think that's really the way that we actually do this. We all have these overlapping circles of communities, home life, family, all the things. And I think you are this idea of, like, one plus one equals not just three, but, like, 12 when you literally curate it in a very intentional way. And. And I don't want to sound Pollyanna about this, but this is very true. You need to have your, like, your personal board of advisors in all the areas of your life, whether it's like your health journey or your family or your mother. You know, you're a mom, or you're dealing with your aging parents, Whatever it is, the people who you can call on and say, this is what I'm dealing with. What would you do? How would you handle it? That's what's going to give you. Literally, it floats all boats. And I do think it can take a little bit of vulnerability. We talked about that just a minute ago. Sort of like, can you be yourself and tell people what's happening? But I very intentionally curate a network that is professional and it's personal, but it takes work. You have to nurture it. And it takes a lot of just telling people. My favorite words are to say, like, I appreciate you. Thank you. This is why I'm reaching out. This is why I'm introducing you to this person. I see this synergy here.

[B]

Well, through. Through you, I've met Julia Anderson, who is, I think, one of the more remarkable IT leaders that I've ever met in the world, and Kim Sinatra, who we know is an amazing human being and so many other great women. And I think it's really worth footnoting, Dan, that one of the things that makes transformations work, whether it's outside of the workplace or inside, is having a network that you can count on, you can go to, and you be. You can be completely honest and get the kind of feedback that you need. And I don't see that happening enough in companies either. So I think that's a great call out for our listeners.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. And it's a difference, too, between, like, mentorship and sponsorship. It's the people that truly will say your name in a room that you're not in. And every time I do that, I will take the time to take. Well, you've been on the receiving end, Julie. I send very quirky texts, but it's like, oh, my gosh, I saw somebody today. It reminded me of you because. Or I said you. I told somebody about you today because. And I. I advocated for you today in this way, you can do it silently, but why not tell people how amazing they are and how much you're pulling for them in the background and just you can send the goofy texts if you're.

[B]

If.

[A]

If that's your style, but, like, curate it and feed it and it returns to you manifold, not just tenfold. Thousandfold. It is remarkable.

[C]

Well, speaking of returns, one of the things I think companies are missing sometimes is they have alumni, of course, who maybe have retired, but also moved to other companies. They know a lot. They have a perspective. I don't know. That resource is being drawn on nearly as much as it could be. Academia has merit, you know, professors emeritus. I think companies should think about that.

[B]

You know, it's so funny that you say that, because I had a call this morning with somebody in the Philippines who I haven't talked to in 20 years, but because I've reached out to an alumni of former colleagues at Annexster. He and I connected. I mean, you talk about a floodgate opening of opportunity and just great connection. I think, Dan, that's such a powerful thing to pose because there are so many people who are leaving those roles and they have so much to offer still in terms of mentoring and role modeling. Amazing.

[A]

You know who does it really well is ge, The GE Alumni Network. I've. I've spoken to them, and they are really.

[B]

They.

[A]

They curate that network very intentionally and keep. Keep people really involved, and they pay it forward. That might be an interesting group to speak with because it's. I haven't seen it that strong anywhere else.

[B]

So, Tissa, as we wrap up here, what is your wish for leaders out there who are dealing with this mess and this change and this kind of intensity that our economic world is facing, what is your wish for them?

[A]

I think it can be really easy to feel unmoored and not really know why you're doing what you're doing. Feel like you're just sort of treading water on the treadmill or whatever the metaphor is. And it's Wednesday. It's mixed metaphors Wednesday. But I feel like, love it. My wish is for them is if you can just know what your anchors are. Right. Know your values. Know what? Know why. Know your why. Why are you doing this? What? That helps you. Even when things are spinning around you, you're able to provide a lot more stability for yourself and your team to sort of say, okay, yeah, we don't really know what it's going to look like even next quarter, but here's why we're doing this. Even if it's just to the level of your leadership values. You know what? My core leadership value is Respect. So here's what we're going to do. I'm going to respect that you're feeling this way or whatever it is. You need some anchors. Otherwise you fly away with the wind and it just gives you so much more of a structure to handle anything, make a decision, handle when things go wrong, whatever it is. If you can do that, then you're able to move forward. It's not bouncing back. You're always able to move forward very intentionally. You can't be intentional if you don't know what you're being intentional about.

[B]

Well, Dan, closing thoughts from you.

[C]

Nothing. I'm going to hold on to the word turtling for the rest of the day, so I'm all set.

[A]

Dan, you will now see it. When people turtle, they physically do it, and you see it, and it's really hard to get it out of your head once you start seeing it.

[C]

Yeah, I can imagine.

[B]

I could keep this going for hours, but in the interest of time, we're going to say thank you. And the book is Rethinking Resilience, which has really unleashed the big idea for me again, of intentional resilience. And you can find [e-mail] and the book, of course, is Everywhere. And, Tissa, what a pleasure. Thank you so much.

[A]

This is delightful. Thank you.

[C]

Yep.

[B]

Thank you so much, Sam.