Episode Overview

Podcast: New Books Network
Host: Khadija Amenda
Guest: P. C. Saidalavi (Assistant Professor of Sociology, Shiv Nadar University, Delhi NCR)
Book Discussed: Seeking Allah's Hierarchy: Caste, Labor, and Islam in India (University of Pennsylvania Press, 2025)
Date: February 4, 2026

Main Theme:
This episode explores Professor P. C. Saidalavi’s groundbreaking ethnography of a Muslim barber community in South India, uncovering the nuances of caste, hierarchy, and labor as navigated by Indian Muslims. Drawing on his personal and scholarly journey, Saidalavi challenges the imposition of Hindu frameworks on Muslim social stratification, foregrounding the community's own narratives, resistance strategies, and claims to dignity and equality.

The Author's Academic and Personal Journey

• Background and Research Genesis ([01:27]):
  • Saidalavi recounts starting his research in 2013 at Jawaharlal Nehru University with an intention to study Muslim identity in world systems theory but, upon his supervisor’s advice, shifted towards grounded ethnography.
  • The foundational question: Is there caste among Muslims in Kerala?
    • “As someone coming from Kerala, I said, there is no caste in Islam. If you ask this question to anybody, any Muslim from the Indian subcontinent, you will actually get the same answer. Then he said Then why don't you figure that out through your MPhil dissertation?” – Saidalavi [02:58]
  • The research journey unfolded into a deep dive into how hierarchies exist and are rationalized amongst Kerala Muslims, particularly barbers.

Reframing Caste and Hierarchy Among Indian Muslims

• Main Argument ([04:42]):

  • Social hierarchy is intrinsic to all societies, but “caste”—as classically defined—is a Hindu institution with its own schema.
  • The book asks: Can “caste” meaningfully describe Muslim social hierarchy, or does this rely too much on a Hindu template and negate Muslim agency?
  • “Whoever talks about social hierarchy among non Hindu communities in India... this already existing frame of caste is automatically attributed.” – Saidalavi [05:19]

• Critique of the "Caste as Exported" Idea ([09:17]):

  • The dominant view that Muslims and Christians acquired caste via acculturation or proximity to Hindu society is reductive, stripping these groups of interpretive agency.
  • Saidalavi highlights the peaceful spread of Islam in Kerala—rooted in trade, not invasion—contradicting simplistic acculturation theories.
  • “...to say that Muslims are still thinking about social hierarchy using a frame of Hindu caste system doesn't actually give any kind of a historical agency to these Muslims. It also discounts the ideological influence of a monotheistic religion like Islam.” – Saidalavi [09:56]
  • He calls for moving past both acculturation/diffusionism and direct comparison with Hindu models.

Fieldwork, Methodology, and Ethical Reflexivity

• Ethnographic Approach and Positionality ([06:23]):
  • Saidalavi, from the dominant Mappila group, reflects on internalized prejudice and everyday use of derogatory terms (e.g., “Osan” for barber).
  • To counter this embedded bias, he employs “ethical listening”:
    • “...positioning oneself as a individual who needs a kind of a moral education from your interlocutors.” – Saidalavi [07:45]

Narratives of Origin and Competing Claims to Lineage

• Barber vs. Mappila Origin Myths ([14:24]):
  • Mappilas trace their conversion directly to early Arab companions of Prophet Muhammad, asserting their primacy.
  • Barbers counter this by claiming direct Arab descent from companions who provided essential religious services (hair/nail cutting) during Islam’s arrival, reframing the derogatory “Osan” as “Othan”—meaning “agreeable person.”
  • Mappilas often admit barbers’ possible Arab connection but relegate it as a forced (not voluntary) occupation, thereby subtly maintaining hierarchical distinction.
  • “...each group can stake particular kind of claims on the same myth. So that is the... power of the myth.” – Saidalavi [20:11]

Social Structure: Patronage, Labor, and Religious Justifications

• Everyday Life of Barbers and Patronage Networks ([21:31]):
  • Barbers were assigned to mosque-centered “mahal” communities, not individual homes, performing essential and ritual services in exchange for in-kind payments (e.g., paddy).
  • Barbers’ labor was rationalized through religious/moral narratives—“you are working for producing a good ideal Muslim community”—but economic precarity and subordination persisted.
  • Resistance was risky and could lead to social boycott or forced migration.

Humiliation, Subordination, and Routes to Dignity

• Experiences of Humiliation ([27:45]):
  • Example: A barber family’s food is rejected by a Sayyid (religious leader) during a religious instruction event when their status is revealed—on grounds of their food being “makruh” (religiously discouraged).
    • “The barber's food was considered makruh... How is it that the Sayyid would not accept our food?” – Saidalavi [30:08]
  • Barbers question the religiosity and fairness of such justifications: “Is it Islamic? Aren't we also Muslims?” [31:39]
  • Barbers challenged both religious and secular humiliations (in schools, the job market, marriage), seeking moral and interpretive grounds to resist.

Pursuits of Equality: Unionization, Migration, and New Identities

• Rise of Collective Action and Social Mobility ([34:26]):
  • In the 1970s, inspired by leftist/communist movements and broader labor struggles, barbers began to unionize (Kerala State Barbers Association).
  • They moved away from restrictive patronage, opened shops, set standardized fees/hours, and built cross-religious solidarity with other barber castes.
  • Simultaneous Gulf migration fueled economic improvement and bargaining power.
  • Barbers constructed new communal identities—organizing family gatherings, publishing histories/calendars, and valorizing claims to Arab descent.
  • “Through this kind of a political mobilization and unionization, barbers across the region became kind of... [they] moved away from their earlier identity to becoming barbers, which gave them a kind of a new kind of identity, new kind of freedom, new kind of discourses of solidarity.” – Saidalavi [38:26]

Rethinking Hierarchy: From Subordination to Egalitarianism

• Final Thoughts and Conceptual Innovations ([43:07]):

  • The title “Seeking Allah’s Hierarchy” signals the community’s challenge: embracing only a piety-based hierarchy that aligns with Quranic egalitarianism—not social or hereditary distinctions.
  • “Barbers say that we accept hierarchy only in terms of piety. We do not accept any other kinds of hierarchical concepts, categories that are operational among Muslims.” – Saidalavi [44:00]
  • Aims to capture a political moment where subordinated groups reclaim religious egalitarianism as a form of radical critique and social transformation.

• Future Research Directions ([45:30]):

  • Saidalavi is probing “Islam as a living tradition” in South Asia, moving from practice-oriented anthropology to value-oriented perspectives.
  • Also working on the Arabi-Malayalam literary tradition and its impact on Muslim identity formation in Kerala.

Notable Quotes & Moments

• “To say that Muslims are still thinking about social hierarchy using a frame of Hindu caste system doesn't actually give any kind of a historical agency to these Muslims.” – Saidalavi [09:56]
• “Rather than becoming a Muslim barber or a Hindu caste barber or a Christian barber... [they] started seeing or imagining that a new kind of a future is possible.” – Saidalavi [36:10]
• “We accept hierarchy only in terms of piety. We do not accept any other kinds of hierarchical concepts, categories that are operational among Muslims.” – Saidalavi [44:00]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:27] – Author’s research journey and shift to ethnography
• [04:42] – Debate on caste and hierarchy among Indian Muslims
• [06:23] – Fieldwork methodology and reflexivity
• [09:17] – Critique of acculturation/diffusionist frameworks
• [14:24] – Competing myths of Muslim origins in Kerala
• [21:31] – Patronage networks and moral rationalizations of labor
• [27:45] – Humiliation and resistance: Barbers’ experiences
• [34:26] – Unionization, migration, and transformation of barber identity
• [43:07] – Egalitarian Islamic hierarchy and the book’s conceptual contribution
• [45:30] – Future research and ongoing projects

Engaging Takeaways

• The book disrupts monolithic views of "caste" among Indian Muslims, tracing how communities creatively interpret and contest hierarchy.
• Through vivid ethnography, Saidalavi illuminates everyday acts of dignity, resistance, and the pursuit of equality among marginalized groups.
• The episode is a rich resource for scholars of caste, Islam, South Asian studies, and anyone interested in intersecting histories of labor, religion, and social justice.