Podcast Summary

Podcast: New Books Network
Series: New Books in Film
Host: Pete Kunze
Guest: Patrick C. Fleming (PC Fleming), author of Animating the Victorians: Disney’s Literary History
Publisher: University Press of Mississippi, 2025
Date: December 23, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode explores Animating the Victorians: Disney’s Literary History, PC Fleming’s new book examining how Disney’s adaptations of Victorian literature, and the broader intersection of Victorian culture and Disney media, have shaped both American entertainment and the field of literary studies. Through personal anecdotes and deep engagement with adaptation and reception theory, Fleming provides a nuanced look at why Victorian literature has been so central to Disney, how Disney’s works are situated in currents of Victorian culture, law, and technology, and what this means for scholars, fans, and educators.

Guest Background & Genesis of the Book

[02:32–05:26]

• PC Fleming’s Academic Journey:

  • Former English professor specializing in Victorian and children’s literature.
  • Left academia for the National Endowment for the Humanities (NEH); finished this book during that time.
  • Personal connection: Disney-loving family, regular trips to Disney World.
  • Quote:
    “There’s a little bit of the personal in this book as well.” —PC Fleming [02:52]

• Book Genesis:

  • Originated from an upper-division seminar, "Disney's Victorians," developed at Rollins College (Orlando).
  • Early research included rare access to Disney archives in Burbank, discovering animator research reports from the 1930s on adapting Victorian texts.
  • Quote:
    “The book kind of emerged from looking at those materials. And then thinking about how they connected.” —PC Fleming [05:03]

Creators vs. Critics & Shared Historical Origins

[05:26–08:44]

• Conceptual Tension:

  • Book opens by complicating the opposition between creators (e.g., Walt Disney) and critics (e.g., FR Leavis).
  • Both Disney and Victorian Studies emerged as fields around the same time (mid-20th century); not merely coincidental.
  • Victorian literature was considered the “spirit of the age”—dynamic in both artistic and academic circles.
  • Quote:
    “It’s not just a coincidence that they appeared at the same time. There’s some deeper connection there.” —PC Fleming [06:26]

• Disney’s Critical Reception:

  • Early Disney was admired by intellectuals and was considered high art, a reputation that shifted over time.
  • Parallel drawn between the fluctuating reputations of Dickens and Disney.
  • Quote:
    “Now people are like, oh yeah, Dickens, sort of classic, important writer and kind of Disney dismissed. But...those flip flop, sometimes that critical history is different.” —PC Fleming [07:44]

Why Victorian Material? Adaptation, Copyright, & Cultural Context

[08:44–12:29]

• Disney’s Preference for Victorians:

  • Victorian literature and culture were close generationally and appealing due to being out of copyright.
  • Expedient for Disney both artistically and legally—no royalties, fresh source material.
  • Cultural proximity: Walt Disney was born the year Queen Victoria died (1901), underlining generational links.
  • Quote:
    “It’s also some of the newest texts that are out of copyright. So Disney can adapt them without having to wrestle with the author rights...” —PC Fleming [10:51]

• Changing Field of Victorian Studies:

  • Victorian studies once central to English departments; now, the field is more self-conscious, integrating race, empire, environmentalism.
  • Fleming’s book is distinct in its focus: why Victorians were so “special” to 20th-century media, especially Disney.
  • The goal is to bridge the gap between literary studies and popular culture (i.e., Disney).

Complicating Disney’s Status & Historical Positioning

[13:40–15:55]

• Binary Reception of Disney:

  • Disney is seen either as a master artist or as a corporate brainwasher; Fleming advocates treating Disney like any other major cultural figure, subject to historical and market pressures.
  • Quote:
    “Just treating Disney in the way that we would treat another major figure is a first step.” —PC Fleming [14:56]

• The Artistic Marketplace:

  • Emphasizes that Disney is both business and culture; the distinction is a modern (Romantic) holdover.
  • Disney’s emergence as a cultural institution is deeply rooted in Victorian-era developments in entertainment, law, and technology.

The Victorian Roots of Disney’s World

[16:52–19:29]

• Entertainment Industry Parallels:

  • Victorian era gave rise to popular amusements (panoramas, wax figures, circus, photography, early film) that prefigured Disney’s multimedia empire.
  • Importance of corporate infrastructure and legal frameworks (e.g., international copyright, cross-media rights).
  • The Gilbert & Sullivan Pirates of Penzance anecdote illustrates 19th-century creators navigating copyright, a precursor to Disney’s own legal maneuvers.

• Quote on Law & Technology:
  “Those are things that 19th century creators deal with. By the 20th century, some of those legal frameworks are...worked out, and so an artist can step in and say, ‘Well, I’m going to make my version of this.’” —PC Fleming [18:36]

Modern Relevance: Copyright, Adaptation, and Stage

[21:58–24:52]

• Disney & Modern Copyright Battles:

  • Ongoing relationship between Disney’s interests and US copyright law, with public jokes about extending copyright for key characters like Mickey Mouse.

• Victorian Theater’s Influence:

  • 19th-century theater was defined by ingenuity: music, spectacle, evasion of censorship (performing Shakespeare on horseback, naval battles, etc.).
  • Peter Pan, for example, was a play before a novel—illustrating the period’s fusion of performance and text.
  • Disney inherits and adapts these traditions for film and animation.

Adaptation Studies: Beyond Fidelity

[24:52–26:19]

• Fleming’s Approach:
  • Adaptation studies crucial to the book, moving past simplistic “book vs. movie” comparisons.
  • Most film adaptations are based not directly on novels, but on the broader “cultural text” (including previous stage versions, notable public perceptions, etc.).
  • Theater often mediates adaptations; understanding this web enriches readings of Disney’s work.
  • Quote:
    “For me, what I loved about adaptation studies is it sort of starts with a limitation...It’s not that interesting to just compare a book to a movie. So if we don’t do that, what else can we do?” —PC Fleming [24:56]

Case Studies: The Little Mermaid and Alice in Wonderland

[26:19–35:49]

The Little Mermaid

[26:21–32:24]

• Hans Christian Andersen’s Victorian-ness:

  • Anderson belongs among the Victorians; he was intertwined with figures like Dickens and the Brownings. His work was thoroughly embedded in 19th-century British culture.
  • Disney’s long engagement with Andersen (Disney almost made a biopic; prior short adaptations).

• Disney’s 1989 film:

  • Moves away from strict “fidelity”—emphasizes narrative clarity and the creation of a clear antagonist (Ursula).
  • Anderson’s version carries “seriousness and darkness...that gets into that film in different ways.” —PC Fleming [30:43]
  • Queerness and transformation in The Little Mermaid resonate in contemporary trans and queer readings; Ursula is based on drag performer Divine, and Howard Ashman’s involvement impacted tone and subtext.
  • Pete Kunze: “...the desire to be who one is, rather than—or to become who one is, I think has been kind of fascinating and in some ways does service to Anderson’s kind of discomfort, for lack of a better term, or feeling of alienation.” [31:24]

Alice in Wonderland

[32:24–35:49]

• Disney’s multi-decade engagement:
  • Early “Alice Comedies” (1920s) were a blend of live action and animation; many failed attempts at a feature version (including scripts by Mary Pickford, Aldous Huxley).
  • The 1951 film is episodic, focusing on gags and spectacle—a reflection of Carroll’s own structure.
  • Alice is excellent Disney material because episodic structure matches animation; the character acts as a foil rather than an active agent.
  • Quote:
    “You’re at the mad tea party. It doesn’t really matter how Alice got there. She’s just—she’s there and it’s fun.” —PC Fleming [34:32]
  • Underlines difference from goal-driven Disney heroines (e.g., Ariel, The Little Mermaid) and exposes the flexibility of Victorian source material in adaptation.

Looking Forward: Audience, Impact, and New Directions

[35:53–38:58]

• Intended Audience:

  • Book is for Disney fans seeking deeper context, but especially for students and classrooms as an accessible way to connect pop culture with advanced literary theory.
  • Quote:
    “If it helps a student connect from like, ‘oh, I really like that movie...’ to the scholarship and scholarly debates...that would be the ideal impact.” —PC Fleming [36:59]

• Current and Future Research:

  • Working on 19th-century British children’s literature, with new interests in how children’s books and sleep intersect (e.g., bedtime stories like Goodnight Moon and their role in reception and performance).
  • Quote:
    “I think there’s like, maybe the beginnings of a sleep culture of sleep kind of humanities work. That’s what I’ve been interested in lately.” —PC Fleming [38:41]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Disney’s Binary Reception:
  “Disney scholarship seems more binary than...other Victorian scholarship. And so I think just treating Disney in the way that we would treat another major figure is a first step.” —PC Fleming [14:50]
• On Anderson’s Relationship to Victorians:
  “Hans Christian Andersen is a Victorian. And...he’s hanging out with Charles Dickens. He stays several weeks with Charles Dickens...he’s also rubbing elbows with the Brownings, George Eliot refers to the Ugly Duckling...So Anderson is already, like, immersed or—the Victorian world is very enamored with Anderson.” —PC Fleming [27:01]
• On Adaptation Studies:
  “An adaptation of a novel, a film adaptation of a novel, is very rarely actually a film adaptation of the novel. More likely it’s a film adaptation of the cultural text.” —PC Fleming [25:24]
• On Alice in Wonderland and Animation:
  “Alice is such a good story, especially for Disney, is that it allows them to have these individual scenes that are part of a larger narrative but don’t depend on the larger narrative.” —PC Fleming [34:32]

Key Timestamps

• [02:32] PC Fleming’s background & personal connection to Disney
• [04:05] Disney’s Victorians seminar leads to book research
• [05:26] Creators vs. critics: Disney and FR Leavis
• [08:44] Disney’s fascination with Victorian texts; copyright issues
• [11:25] Disney’s UK productions and shifting relevance of Victorian studies
• [13:40] How Victorian studies complicates Disney’s reception
• [16:52] Victorian entertainment, technology, and legal frameworks shape Disney
• [18:50] Gilbert & Sullivan and the birth of international copyright
• [21:58] Disney’s modern copyright battles and inheritance from the Victorians
• [22:29] Theatrical culture and adaptation in the 19th century
• [24:52] What adaptation studies offers the Disney-Victorian discussion
• [27:01] The Little Mermaid as a “Victorian text”
• [32:24] Disney’s many approaches to Alice in Wonderland
• [35:53] Audience: fans, students, and the value to classroom teaching
• [37:16] New research on children’s literature and sleep

Episode Tone & Style

Both Fleming and Kunze keep the discussion lively, scholarly yet accessible, punctuated with humor (“Research is always me-search, right?”), and frequently move between personal anecdotes and rigorous theoretical analysis. Notably, the episode combines deep academic insight with cultural and fan-oriented perspectives, making the book and conversation appealing to both scholars and general audiences interested in Disney and literary history.