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Peter C. Zimmerman, "The Jazz Masters: Setting the Record Straight" (UP of Mississippi, 2021)
00:56:05
An interview with Peter C. Zimmerman
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- [00:01]
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- [01:35]
Adam Bobeck
Hi, welcome back to the New Books Network. My name is Adam Bobeck and I'm a PhD candidate in sociocultural Anthropology at the University of Leipzig. I am very pleased to welcome Peter C. Zimmerman to the show today. Peter C. Zimmerman is a native of New York State and went to Vassar College and has been a music writer for more than three decades, interviewing everyone from Waylon Jennings to Bootsy Collins. He is also the author of Tennessee, Its People and Places as well as Podunk Ramblin to America's Small Places in a dilapidated Delta 88. Today we are discussing his new book, the Jazz Setting the Record Straight, which was published in 2021 with University Press of Mississippi. Mr. Zimmerman, welcome to the show.
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Peter C. Zimmerman
Thank you Adam. Nice to be here.
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Adam Bobeck
Could you tell listeners a little bit about yourself and your relationship to jazz?
- [02:29]
Peter C. Zimmerman
Sure. Well, I grew up in a suburb of New York City and it's about 20 miles north called Hastings on Hudson. And when I was in high school, when I was 16, this would have been long many years ago but I my friends and I happen that some of my friends happened to be musicians and they were in the high school band and they ended up becoming jazz musicians and also playing African music and other other kinds and we used to go into the city and see live jazz and in the clubs and lofts and concerts and I just really liked the music and so ever since then and that would be almost 50 years. Because I'm 63, I've been going to jazz c Jazz and listening to a lot of records. And it just became something that was very integral to my. To my life. And so I decided at one point that I would like to do. I did the first interview for this book in 1991. And then it wasn't until the early 2000 and tens that I decided I would do a book of interviews. And I decided to interview older musicians who are at least 70 years old and as old as 95 years old. Some of them have died since I started working on the book. But in other words, all the musicians have had at least 50 years of experience as professional musicians and some of them as many as 75 years. So there's a real wealth of information. I wanted to ask them about their careers and also just what they thought about music and other things about life. And so it's really a book about people rather than focusing on music theory because I'm not myself a musician. I'm just with a journalistic background.
- [04:51]
Adam Bobeck
In the introduction, you write that this is a book of praise and not criticism, right?
- [04:56]
Peter C. Zimmerman
Well, I chose. I chose just to write about people that I like. Some of them I knew about when I started working in the book and some I found out about. And I wanted to show a range of styles because there's many different jazz styles. And just. I didn't want to say anything negative about people. I want to. So it is. I think I said elsewhere that's really a celebration of jazz. And so it's not criticism. I'm not like a music critic. I'm just basically an interviewer and let. Let them say what they have to say. So that was what the subtitle is, which is Setting the Record Straight.
- [05:36]
Adam Bobeck
In an email that we had, you said that you decided to go with straight ahead or mainstream jazz and steer of avant garde and fusion. Can you talk about your decision to do that?
- [05:48]
Peter C. Zimmerman
Well, that's a long story. But I mean, I. I was born in 58 and my parents were big jazz fans, especially early jazz people like Louis Armstrong. And that's really what I grew up listening to. They liked other kinds of music too, but, you know, then as I became more familiar with jazz and started seeing it live, I. I learned more about it over the, you know, little by little. And the, the two trends, as I see the two main kind of sub genres of jazz are, are swing music, which was the dance music of the 1940s, basically 30s 40s, and people like Duke Ellington And Count Basie. And then after that, bebop music, which is. The main guys are Charlie Parker, Felonious Monk, Dizzy Gillespie, many others. And these days it seems to me that a lot of the jazz that's being made is based on those two sub genres. And then, you know, there's many other sub genres, like avant garde and fusion. And then you have like the other very early jazz, which is ragtime, stride piano and boogie woogie and things like that, which I like the early stuff, but I'm not very fond of avant garde and fusion and different, different kinds of fusion. And so I really limited. Most of the people in the book are basically swing and bebop. That's a big part of what they play. But they've also played many other kinds of music too, because as one of the interviewees told me, which is the pianist Dick Hyman, musicians have to have. They have to support themselves so they will play, you know, anything they have to do, whether it's poker music or going or playing at a bar mitzvah. And so he was saying you can't really pigeonhole. You shouldn't pigeonhole musicians because they're not just one thing. So like Teddy Wilson, who was, you know, I thought he was called a swing pianist and. But it turned out, according to Dick, that wasn't. He did a lot of other things too. And, you know, he had his unique style and you can't pigeonhole him.
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Adam Bobeck
In the interview with Charles Davis towards the beginning of the book, the topic of age comes up and it's pointed out that people under 40 don't generally listen to jazz. Why do you think that is?
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Peter C. Zimmerman
Well, we were talking about this before the interview and I, and I said that I thought basically that that's true, and I can't really say that I know what the answer is, but I think basically it's the same as other jazz fans, which is that they're not. It's not the most popular form of music. But, but the people that do like jazz are, are like, are avid. You know, once you like it, you get the bug. Then people just. That's what they want to listen to, you know, they're devoted fans. And I would say these days that younger people, it's the same thing. It's. It's not that popular. But the people who like it really like it a lot. Like, I guess you must like it if you're interviewing me about it. But I also, as I was telling you that actually jazz is the least tied for least popular forms of music. With only 1% of all sales are jazz, which is tied with classical and children's music. And the main kind of music, the most popular kinds of music these days are rap and country. So I think it's rap and hip hop. It's maybe the way. And now they have this hybrid which is called a rap country or country rap, which is just about the worst kind of music that I've ever heard.
- [10:07]
Adam Bobeck
You have already mentioned that it's really a book of interviews. I mean, the bulk of it is verbatim interviews with different jazz musicians that you organize into sort of different groups. Right. And so you have the philosophers, you have old school, you have something more. Why did you decide to organize the book like this?
- [10:29]
Peter C. Zimmerman
Originally, I did not interview. I did not arrange it that way. And I just had. Not alphabetical either, but I had my own little order for it. You know, for instance, someone like Dick Hyman knows a lot about stride piano, which is from the 20s or 30s, and ragtime and other. All other kinds of music that existed before jazz and that were. Was. Were incorporated in jazz. But as I The. It was not alphabetical, but I did try to put it in a certain order. And then I realized that it might be more interesting to have people grouped together and to sort of play off of each other. So there's one. The first section is with three musicians. And that's mainly because they all came from Chicago. So that would be Clifford Jordan, Charles Davis and Bob Cranshaw, who was Sonny Rollins bassist for almost 60 years. And so I wrote a little introduction to the groups. And then in front of each musician's interview, I would write just a paragraph or two about my experience with. With meeting them and talking to them and what. And my impressions of them. Yeah, so that's the. And then. So after the interviews, there's a discography where I. Where I recommend recordings by the different interviewees and a very long index, which was. Which my publisher wanted to do, which is. Was rather. They did it for me. I was rather shocked to see it was like 10 or 15 pages or whatever it is.
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Adam Bobeck
Another category that you have in the book is Local 802, right. Your interviews with Jimmy Owens and Bill Crow. Could you talk a little bit about what Local 802 is, maybe for listeners who aren't acquainted with it?
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Peter C. Zimmerman
Sure. Well, it used to be. There used to be a lot of unions all over the country where. Because there was dancing then. And. And it was a big thing that jazz was very popular then. And so these unions formed and the 802 is the largest musicians union in the country, maybe in the world, and. But definitely the country. And it's got 7,000 members. So they're involved in, you know, making sure that older musicians get their pensions and other things having to do with musicians rights. And it used to be really focused just on Broadway musicians, but now it's all kinds of musicians. And the other thing they do is they negotiate with the big jazz clubs to make sure that musicians are getting the money that they should be getting. So that's what the. Jimmy Owens, who is a trumpeter and a flugelhornist, and Bill Crowe, who is a bassist, have spent many, many, well, I think maybe four or five decades, both of them working at the union in various capacities.
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Adam Bobeck
As you point out in the book, eight of the musicians you did interviews with are former members of Art Blakey's band, Art Blakey and the Messengers, which you also point out, I think is over a third of the musicians.
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Peter C. Zimmerman
Right, yes.
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Adam Bobeck
Was that simply coincidence? Was that happenstance or was that planned?
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Peter C. Zimmerman
No, it was coincidence. And I, again, some of these people I didn't know so much about when I started. And then I saw, you know, I would do the interview and then I would re. I research it beforehand, listen to their music, then do the interview, then research it some more. And then there would be. In about half the cases, I would. Had email correspondences with them, so I would ask them about things. And so that. That just came out. Of course, Art Blame Blakey is one of the most important jazz drummers of all time. He's been long gone, so I didn't interview him, unfortunately. But could. Could I just interject something? You know, I noticed that. Are you German? Because. No.
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Adam Bobeck
No, I am not.
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Peter C. Zimmerman
Because you have a very impressive. You don't sound like you have a big German accent.
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Adam Bobeck
No, although I study at the University of Leipzig in Germany. I am born and raised in Indiana.
- [15:26]
Peter C. Zimmerman
Ah, okay. Well, there's a lot of very famous jazz musicians from Indiana, you know, such as the guitarist Wes Montgomery. Let me see, who else. J.J. johnson, who was the most famous bebop trombonist and. Oh, I know. So Hoagie Carmichael is this. The composer is from Indiana, and he wrote, among other things, Stardust, which is not only is it a very famous song, and it was certainly a famous song back then, which was in, I think the early 30s or something like that, but also a song that was. Has been covered by. That is often covered by jazz musicians. So those are called standards. And people like maybe beginning with Irving Berlin in the 19. The early parts of the 20th century, up until Frank Lesser, who was. Who wrote Guys and Dolls. So all of these songs from the. Are covered a lot. And so you're in good company, Adam. And so I was. I wanted to read a couple passages from the book and short passages and. And I was speaking of Stardust. Can I go ahead and read one of those?
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Adam Bobeck
Yes, please. Please. Absolutely.
- [16:59]
Peter C. Zimmerman
All right. So Clifford Jordan is a saxophonist, flutist, composer, producer. Not as well known as some other people, such as other saxophonists such as Sonny Rollins, who was in the. The following section, but a really good player. And he died, unfortunately, a little bit pretty when he was in his early 60s, back in 93. And I interviewed him in 1991, before I was long before I started working on the book. I. And I. I interviewed him for a newspaper, Stars and Stripes, which is the military paper based in Tokyo, where it happened to be working for a little while. And not to sound overly impressive or anything, but I just will say this, okay. So I asked him, what do you make of today's music? And he said, songs today are so complex that you have to listen to all these microscopic bits and pieces to put together what they're saying. Before, it was always tiptoeing through the tulips and perfume and sweetness and shadows on the garden wall. So it left something for the imagination. Songs like Stardust. So rap is kind of complex because they're talking politically. Have you heard these guys? Two Live Crew, the guy said, and then I left out the lyrics because at the. At the family. Clifford's family's request, because it was misogynistic and. Yeah, basically misogynistic. So he continues, when the judges. When the judges heard it, they fell out laughing because the rappers are not really saying anything that's wrong, since the words they use are double entendres. Do I need to say what double entendres is?
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Adam Bobeck
I think listeners know what double entendres are.
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Peter C. Zimmerman
All right? So he goes, if not, then they.
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Adam Bobeck
Can look it up.
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Peter C. Zimmerman
Yeah, okay, so I'll go on. So he says, we were rapping when we were five, six years old, talking about one another's mother. Same kind of rhythm and everything. That was before portable radio. We were just kids sitting out on the back porch making up rhymes. We did it just naturally. Some kids could do it so well. It would make someone. Somebody want to fight because they couldn't retaliate as quickly as other people. One guy would say, don't talk about my mother because she's Dead, you know, so that's what rap is, just rhythmic, you know, hambone the gift of gab.
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Adam Bobeck
When I read that the first time, this is of course the, the first interview that you have in the book. And when I read that the first time, I was a little bit surprised by the way he worded that because from, for my ears, it feels like so many jazz pieces are complex and you really need to listen to the microscopic bits and pieces of it, of a jazz tune to really get everything that's going on.
- [20:31]
Peter C. Zimmerman
I don't know, I guess everyone listens to music in different ways. It is, it's interesting the way that, you know, sometimes a jazz piece will, let's say, play it in different. They'll start in one tempo, switch to another tempo. You know, they'll play the melody and then they'll play a very, like a, a different version of the melody using the same harmony. Again, I'm not a musician, but I, I don't know, for me, I, I take it in. You know, you have, there's a beginning, a middle and an end. And so what happens, you know, usually the beginning and the end are sort of more adhering to the melody and, and then in the, and then in the, in the middle. This is not always true, but this is just what it, the way it sounds to me. They improvise. So they take the song and then they play something based on the melody. And sometimes you might not even really be able to recognize the melody when they're improvising. But I had mentioned Sonny Rollins before, so he's, he would be one of the most famous people in, in my book and up there with Clark Terry and Yousef Lateef. But he's the only one that's still alive. So I guess you could say he's probably the most famous mainstream, straight ahead jazz player. And he retired about five years ago because of. Yeah, having lung problems. But I, I would, thought I would read something about what he, he has to say about improv improvisation because it's a very important part of jazz.
- [22:21]
Adam Bobeck
Yeah, yeah, yeah, please.
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Peter C. Zimmerman
Okay, okay. So I said, I asked him, I've heard that you don't listen to your own recordings much, but do you remember solo Scope? And he says at the Museum of Modern Art? Yeah, I remember the concert. Sure. And this is his concert where he played solo saxophone, you know, with no piano, drums or bass. When you showed up at the concert, did you bring any changes or anything to go on or did you just kind of quote unquote, wing it? Sonny said Well, I always wing it because I think that's what jazz improvisation is. I probably had some theme, now that I think about it, I did have some music that I was referring to during the performance. But jazz improvisation is about winging it. I mean, that's what it's about. It's about improvising at a subconscious level. I would say that's where real improvisation occurs. So he says, quote, unquote, winging it is, I would consider, a desultory way of just describing jazz improvisation. But if you want to use those words, quote, unquote, winging it, that's okay, because that's what improvisation is about. That's what Louis Armstrong did when he was creating his masterpieces. He was winging it. That's what I try to do when I play. When I'm really playing and I'm really at that level. That's what you would call winging it.
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Adam Bobeck
What was it like interviewing Sonny Rollins?
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Peter C. Zimmerman
Well, what happened? I had been a big fan again, since I'm trying to think when I must have met him in 2011. And it was just a serendipitous thing that I was going to a little post office near where I lived, and I knew that he lived near me, but I never expected to run into him. And I went in, this was in the winter, and I went into the post office, and there was this guy buying something in front of me so I couldn't see him. And he was wearing a big green parka with a big green hood over it. And when he turned around and he was going through a big box full of mail, I could tell right away who he was because I'd seen his picture before. So I started talking to him. And then we went outside the post office, and we talked for a little bit, a little while longer. And I asked him if I could talk to him some more sometime. So he said okay. And he gave me his phone number. And so the first 20 minutes was just sort of. I wasn't recording it, so I just did it from memory, talked about it from memory. And then I talked to him twice more on the phone. It was very exciting, first of all, to meet him. And because I was such a big fan, it was just. I don't know what the word for it well was. I just kind of couldn't believe I actually met him. And then I felt very fortunate that he would. That he would let me talk to him for a while. So that was a highlight of my life, I would say, because jazz. I do like jazz so much. To talk to, you know, the most important guy is. Was it. You know, it was a pretty good coup for me.
- [26:13]
Adam Bobeck
That's my new favorite mental image is Sonny Rollins in a post office.
- [26:17]
Peter C. Zimmerman
Oh, I should add that what happened was one of the things we talked about was Cat was a song called Cab in the sky and which was sung by Ethel Waters and Eddie Rochester Anderson in a movie of the same name from the 40s. And after, you know, I think, let's see. At some point, I got a card from him. I think, well, I wrote him and asked him if I could have the interview. And one day I got a card from him about Cabin in the sky and saying that he. Remember, afterwards, he was thinking about it, he remembered that he had gone to a segregated movie theater in Maryland when the. When that movie first came out, and he was. Blacks had to sit on the. You know, the up. Upper part of the theater and just talking things. Things about the. About that song that he remembered. And I was kind of. I was amazed that he would, you know, drop me a line. And so I still have that card, and that's one of my prized possessions. Sonny Rollins wrote to little old me.
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Adam Bobeck
You also mentioned before that interview that he never laughed out loud during the interview.
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Peter C. Zimmerman
Right.
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Adam Bobeck
You could tell he was chuckling to himself, but he wasn't laughing out loud at all during the interview.
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Peter C. Zimmerman
Yeah, that's right. He was writing about sound. He was talking about sound checks, which is when the band goes in before the. Before the concert and they make sure that the sound levels are right. And he was joking about how some sound check people would deliver. Would. I said, do you think. You don't think they deliberately sabotage it, do you? And he says, well, I wouldn't. I wouldn't be surprised. But I think I also said that I. That I thought because he's so famous and he knows he's famous, he's very careful what he says. And he would think a little bit that, you know, if I asked him a question, he would. He would be kind of guarded about it. Not in a bad way, but I think he was just, you know, he knew that what he said was gonna. People were gonna be reading it in the future, so.
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Adam Bobeck
Right, right.
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Peter C. Zimmerman
I did. I'll just add. I wanted to add about improvisation. There's a trumpeter named Jimmy Owens who said, improvisation is an integral part of jazz music. It's an integral part of the tradition of what came from Africa. Improvisation is an important part of all of the music that was played in Africa. All of the. All of the music had a reason to be performed when someone died, there was music for death, Someone was born, there was music for birth, music for a wedding, music for growing up reaching puberty. This is all part of the kinds of things that were happening in Africa. This is all part of the tradition that when it came from Africa, it got watered down a little bit every place that it stopped.
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Adam Bobeck
So improvisation in jazz really carries these African roots.
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Peter C. Zimmerman
Well, you know, there's. There's different theories about it, and it's pretty hard to, you know, pinpoint it. But a lot of people would say that they really. Even though. Well, that there really would. Wouldn't. Jazz never would have been created if there had not been an Africa, an African influence. Of course, by Africa, I mean from Africa to the Caribbean or South America or North America. Obviously, there's, you know, there have been European influences as well, but I think that maybe the basic rhythm is African or Africa originally African. African American.
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Adam Bobeck
There's this common idea about the history of jazz, that jazz originates, of course, in New Orleans and then builds up from there. Right?
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Peter C. Zimmerman
Yeah. Well, one of the interviewees, Steve Turay, who plays trombone, and he also plays conscious, which is. He told me that the blues is the foundation of jazz. So blues, you know, if you were going to try to make a timeline, blues would predate jazz. And I think that they say, some people say that jazz was. Comes from New Orleans. And if that's true, then probably the reason that it was is that it was a huge. It was a port, and that that is where a lot of African Americans would come from, either probably from the Caribbean. That's a little bit hard to pinpoint. But I don't think the jazz was really invented in New Orleans, or at least I think what happened, and people have told me this is that it did come from New Orleans, but just about the same time it also developed in cities, towns along the Mississippi and its tributaries. So that basically the whole Mississippi river river basin, especially the towns like St. Louis and Memphis, Kansas City, see all the way going. Going up to Pittsburgh, which. Which is not normally thought of as a big chat or people don't know that it's a big jazz town, but that the Allegheny river flows into the Ohio, which flows into the Mississippi. So it's kind of interesting that. That you would think of, you know, Pittsburgh is sort of a Mississippi river town. Many famous jazz musicians from Pittsburgh and also from eastern Pennsylvania. Philadelphia was a big jazz town. A lot of the musicians, of course, moved to New York over the years. It started in New Orleans, then it spent a little time in Chicago and then now it's jazz. New York is really the jazz mecca. That's where most jazz musicians come to and live in either New York, Connecticut, New Jersey, Massachusetts. That's, that's where the main thing is happening. Every drop of Jack Daniels is mellowed through sugar maple charcoal, giving Jack its smooth taste. That's what makes Jack Jack. Please drink responsibly. Jack Daniels and old number seven are registered trademarks. Tennessee whiskey, 40% alcohol by volume. Jack Daniel Distillery, Lynchburg, Tennessee.
- [33:10]
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- [33:38]
Adam Bobeck
A lot of these interviews in New York as well, right? Including with Sandy Stewart in Manhattan.
- [33:45]
Peter C. Zimmerman
Right.
- [33:46]
Adam Bobeck
Could you talk a little bit about that interview?
- [33:48]
Peter C. Zimmerman
Sure, yeah. A lot of the people, it was pretty easy because I was within an hour or two drive of most of them. And so sometimes I met with, sometimes I interviewed them on the phone, sometimes I went to their houses, sometimes I met them at a, at a club. And so basically it was, you know, with fairly close to New York City. But I did go as far as Maine to interview one guy and I went to Delaware to interview another person. But yeah, Sandy Stewart. I used to joke with my, well, I did joke with my publisher about how I chose her and it, because it was sort of nepotism. And they said, oh, we don't like that, you know, but you know, then in retrospect I realized that it wasn't nepotism, it was just the fact that I was introduced to her by my high school friend whose stepmother she was his, she is his stepmother and had a very nice comic. She's very friendly person. She's a singer and she's been interviewed two women for, for the book. One of the other one named Carol Sud Holder, who's a saxophonist and flute flutist. But Sandy was telling me about her early days in the business and she was, she is friends with Dick Hyman and also with the, the guitarist Bucky Pizzarelli. So she's telling me how she started out and it's a little humorous story. She goes, I had been hired to do a live morning jazz show at NBC, the moderator was a guy by the name of Alan Edwards who loved jazz. And in those days there was live music all over the city. Every, meaning New York City, every hotel, every little restaurant had something, a guitarist, a pianist, you know, whatever. Anyway, this was a live morning show before I went to high school. I would do the show from 7 to 9am and I remember when I was 16 years old walking into the studio wearing a pink and white gingham dress, wearing a ponytail. And the quartet was Dick Hyman on piano, Eddie Safranski on bass, Don Lamond on drums and Mundo Lowe on guitar. They had been talking about the new girl singer who was coming in and saying, wow, this is going to be great, right? So I walk in and Mundell looked at me and said, where's your mom? And I said, my mom? She's in Philadelphia with my brothers. Why? He says, well, we just hired a new girl singer and we're waiting for her. And I said, well, I'm the singer. So Mundell looked down at his guitar, strummed a few notes and looked at Sir Fransky and said, forget the whole thing. Jail bait. So to this day, whenever I see Mundell, he calls me jail bait.
- [37:17]
Adam Bobeck
Yeah, but then. So this comment about Sandy Stewart's age is also, of course, very interesting considering that at the time you entered, interviewed her, she was 76.
- [37:29]
Peter C. Zimmerman
She said, I don't remember the exact words, but she said basically that I don't mind talking about my age because at least I'm still, I'm just happy to still be around. And she, she still is around and I, I keep around, I keep in touch with her quite a bit, actually. I. Sometimes we agree about the greatest jazz singers or our favorite ones anyway, it was just a coincidence, but it turns out Sarah Vaughan and Joe Williams were our favorite female and male jazz singers. So sometimes I'll send her something. If I happen to see something on YouTube that has to do with one of them or, you know, like with all the interviewees when I was trying. I don't do it anymore really. But if I, I wanted to make sure I got something right or I want some kind of clarification, then I would drop them an email. So I have had a very nice little friendship going with some of these people. I don't really. I did have one, Saw one person socially, one of my, I'm not going to mention any names, but I did have one person come up and visit me and, and that was a lot of fun. So I, I have had people have been pretty supportive and. And in some cases I do the interview and then I never talk to the person again. And then of course, there's I think five or six who. Who have died since I started working on it and 2011, but I'm still in touch with quite a few of them, so that's gratifying. And they've been very supportive of the project.
- [39:03]
Adam Bobeck
There's another story that you wanted to tell, which was Steve Ture's story of Rasaan, right?
- [39:09]
Peter C. Zimmerman
Yes. He's an interesting guy. He's from California, Bay Area, and he calls himself a jazz hippie. So he was coming up during all, you know, he lived during. During those days of the. What was it, the late 60s? Early. Yeah, late 60s. But he, you know, he really liked jazz, so he's very good trombonist. And he also plays different kinds of seashells, so which he learned from Rahsaan. And Rahsaan is kind of a legendary character, I think, actually. Oh, no, I guess Rahsaan's from Ohio, not Indiana, but he learned the seashells from Rasaan. And in order to play a melody on seashells, you have to have three or four different sized shells and you have to keep picking up a different one. And so he told me the story about when he was working with Rasaan. And can I say, Rahsaan was a multi instrumentalist and he could play actually three saxophones at the same time. And also he learned how to do circular breathing, which some people would say, well, he invented it or some other musician invented it. But it's actually something that's. That's people been doing for. I don't. I don't know how many years, but. Or maybe centuries. But anyway, he told me a funny story about when he was playing with Rahsaan. So I called this. And these are his words. I called this Steve's tale of Rasan's Conch. And it goes there. It was a conch shell sitting on the ground next to his chair, to Rasan's chair with the saxophone and all of his horns on it and the clarinet and all that. And so I asked Rasan, I said, are you going to play that? When are you going to play it? What's that for? And he said, he lowers his voice. I'll play it when the time is right. So I said, okay. As it happened, the next night, this couple comes into the club and they're sitting at the front table, right in front of the bandstand, and they proceeded to get drunk. I Mean, sloppy drunk. And then they started talking real loud, oblivious to the music. She said, man, I told you to take out the garbage. And he said, I did. And she said, no, you didn't. You left it by the car before we left and all this stuff. So Rahsaan puts. Pulls out the shell. And now I gotta tell you, Rahsaan was the champion of circular breathing. Now, the other people in the club were getting annoyed, and Rahsaan wanted to play a ballad. So he picked up the shell and he hit this Note. Ture sings one continuous note for 15 seconds. But, like, for five minutes, you know, and finally when they realized that something was going on, they looked up all surprised with their mouths hanging open. And when that happened, everybody in the club clapped, you know, like, yay, you quit talking. And then Rahsaan went into this ballad that was so pretty. Oh, my goodness. It was a magical moment. It was like the shell just brought peace. Because the sound of it. Excuse me, Was so soothing. And something about it really touched me. So after the gig, I asked him, man, can I try to blow that? And he said, yeah, go ahead. Give it a try. And I tried it, and I really liked it. And a couple of months later, my mom went on a vacation in Hawaii, and she got me a shell. And that's how I first got. How I got my first one in 1970.
- [43:22]
Adam Bobeck
Not a. Not a common jazz instrument.
- [43:24]
Peter C. Zimmerman
You mean the conch? Yeah, yeah. It's not. But if you look. If you Google it, then you can see that it was played. I'm trying to think about a couple different. Very. Not a couple of places. Not. Not, you know, thousands of years apart or something. It is used as. It was used as a form of communication, and they could play it and someone could hear it miles away. But I don't have those details in front of me.
- [43:55]
Adam Bobeck
Right.
- [43:55]
Peter C. Zimmerman
Sure, sure, sure. But, you know, you could look it up. And so I just want to say about circular breathing, it's amazing the way what happens is that basically they're able to blow out of the sax to play the saxophone and at the same time breathe in through their nose so they don't have to take a breath. So Ross on could take a solo for continuous solo for maybe 20 minutes, maybe longer. Right. And their cheeks get all puffed up while they're doing that. So I don't know. Anyway, that's. That's Rahsaan. He was very unique. He was kind of a showman, and he was blind. And I was able to see him once. And by that Time he'd had a stroke and half of his body, one arm and one leg were paralyzed. So I don't know if he played three, maybe played two saxophones. But the incredible thing is he would move his hips from side to side to clap, you know, the rhythm on his thigh while he was, you know, then the other. The arm and the leg were just standing there straight. So he was, you know, he loved his music and he played it to the end. I don't know. Not sure how old he was when he's died. When he died. Maybe 40 something, I think. I don't know. Well, I'd like to talk about. About Buster Williams, who's a bassist. He's also. He's another person that I've been seeing since the 70s. I always loved his music and I. He's a very. He has a very unique sound. And I interviewed him in Harlem at a place called Jimbo's Hamburger palace at the foot of Sugar Hill, which is where a lot of famous jazz musicians come from, including Sonny Rollins. And he was talking about his early days. I guess he probably was in his 20s at the time. And, you know, when you play music, you. You meet different people and you get different bands together. And he was telling me about his experience with meeting Dexter Gordon, who is a very famous saxophonist when he was. Buster was. It was his first time to Europe, and he's from Camden, New Jersey, near Philadelphia. But he was. He was touring with Sarah Vaughan and at the same time that Dexter Gordon was playing in. At the famous place called the Montmar, if I have that right. Anyway, it was in. Is that Denmark? Anyway, somewhere in Europe, let's say. And during his breaks, he'd go. He walked from that where he was playing to. To this club where Dexter Gordon was playing. And I asked him about that because they. They made it. Dexter Gordon made a really great album called Generation, and Buster was on it. And I was asking him about what his. What it was like making that album and how, you know, Duck. Dexter was quite a bit older than him. I think maybe 20 years. Anyway, he says. Buster says, well, I. Or I said, you know, if I was in the rhythm section with that front line and they were at the top of their game, then it must have been intimidating. And he said, well, not intimidating, but as I've gotten older, I've thought more about the ages of these people who I was playing with when I was 17, 18, in my 20s. And I realized that they were young too. When I played with Miles Davis, how old was I? It was 1967. So I must have been 25, 26 years old. And Miles was in his early 40s. But, you know, Miles Dexter, Freddy Hubbard, Cedar Walton, all these guys were not that much older than me. But, I mean, it seemed like it. I never thought of it in chronological terms, but they were just so. They're my heroes. So I was able to walk with my heroes. I was able to talk with my heroes. I was able to dwell on the same level with my heroes. And that was just amazing. I mean, there wasn't a time that I played with Cedar that I didn't learn something when I played with Dexter or Freddie Hubbard. I learned something every time. When I first met Dexter, to me, he looked like a great. A giant descended from heaven, and he was so gracious. It was at the Momar in Copenhagen, and I was in Europe for the first time of my life in 1963 with Sarah Vaughan. We were playing at the Tivoli Gardens, and Dexter was at Montmar, playing every night. And I went there every night the first time I met him. Niels and the bassist. Niels Henning Orsted Peterson was the bassist. And I'm meeting everyone for the first time. And Dexter just, you know, he embraced me, and he was changing the reed on his saxophone. And he looked at me and held up one of the reeds and gave me the reed. To this day, I have that reed. And I said, was it one that he didn't want? Of course. Well, of course he wouldn't give me a good reed. That's a rarity. A good reed. So he let me sit in with him that night, and then I came back every night and he had me play with him. I was just so honored. Man. That's the way these guys were. Their music was their humanity, and their music was their humbleness because they were servants to the music. From them I heard, I learned the real positioning of things and the attitude that's best to be able to constantly advance with this music. The music is the master, and we serve the music. That's what I learned from them. I never got the feeling from any of these great people who I played with that they were above the music.
- [50:57]
Adam Bobeck
This book is a must read for anyone who is interested in jazz. If you're a novice, if you're a connoisseur, Mr. Zimmerman, you have interviews with everybody from Sandy Stewart to Yusef Lateef and Valery Panoramo. There's everything in here. It's. It's spectacular. I have one final question, which is a tradition here on the New Books Network. And that is to ask what you are working on now.
- [51:31]
Peter C. Zimmerman
Well, what I'm working on now I actually started working on, let's see, 1983. So how many years has that. 40 years, something like that. Unbelievable. I'm working on a book about my family roots. So I guess you'd call it genealogy, but it's not really, you know, it's not the Daughters of the American Revolution type of. I'm not interested in just the trans family tree. I'm taking one branch, one very small branch of the family tree on my mother's side and tracing it back to Scotland. So in other. So my mother's people were what. What's known as Ulster Scots. They started and they're. Or their day or their probably their ancest descendants started in Scotland, lived in Northern Ireland for a while and then Presbyterians and then they were kind of. They decided to move to America. So they lived in Pennsylvania first, then they moved to North Carolina. They were farmers. And then they moved to Kentucky for a while and then to west Tennessee, which is where my mother's from. So I'm tracing it back to my. They called a six times great grandfather. So he's. It's. He's my great grandfather with six greats in front of it, born in 1707. And what I'm trying to do is find out more about each one of my ancestors, you know, these six generations. And I, I found. It's amazing how much I've learned by visiting these places and going to libraries and archives. And that's. So it's really. It might not be a commercial book. It might just be a book that I'm doing for my family. But, you know, I've done, I've written some books and I'm getting older and I'm getting tired and I'm thinking maybe I'll. Maybe I will not write any more books. So this is the one I'm doing. You know, my mother's helping me with it and my grandparents started doing the research. Then my aunt did a lot of the research and then I kind of carried on from, from there. But it's. I always like books that, where you have. That have a kind of a personal angle, you know, as you like with jazz. Just because it's. It's always been important to me. And you know, I'm glad that to, to, to give back a little bit. I'm listening to other kinds of music now. I'm taking a break from jazz.
- [54:18]
Adam Bobeck
What are you listening to now?
- [54:22]
Peter C. Zimmerman
Well, I always like to listen to blues and I like funk. I like bluegrass. I like the old rock, you know, the late 60s stuff. I don't really like anything later than, let's say, Prince, you know, or Michael Jackson. Prince. After that, I don't really hear anything. I don't hear much that I like too much.
- [54:48]
Adam Bobeck
The book is the Jazz masters, published in 2021 with the University Press of Mississippi. And if you're interested in getting a copy or an autographed copy, you can purchase it from Mr. Zimmerman's website, which is thejazmastersbook.com don't forget the the and the book.
- [55:07]
Peter C. Zimmerman
Don't forget the book either. Jazz Masters book.
- [55:10]
Adam Bobeck
Yeah, don't forget the book either. Mr. Peter C. Zimmerman, thank you so much for joining me today.
- [55:17]
Peter C. Zimmerman
Thank you very much. I enjoyed it. Enjoyed meeting you. Hoosier.