Podcast Summary

Podcast: New Books Network
Episode: Peter C. Zimmerman, "The Jazz Masters: Setting the Record Straight" (UP of Mississippi, 2021)
Date: October 20, 2025
Host: Adam Bobeck
Guest: Peter C. Zimmerman

Overview

This episode features a conversation between host Adam Bobeck and music writer Peter C. Zimmerman about Zimmerman’s book, The Jazz Masters: Setting the Record Straight (2021). The discussion centers on Zimmerman's decades-long experience with jazz, his approach to interviewing legendary jazz musicians, and the rich history and evolving legacy of jazz music. Zimmerman shares stories from his encounters with masters of the genre and discusses the role of improvisation, the evolution of jazz styles, and the personal connections that shaped his work.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Peter Zimmerman’s Journey into Jazz

• Grew up in Hastings-on-Hudson, a suburb of New York City.
• Inspired by musician friends in high school and frequent visits to New York jazz clubs.
• Began interviewing musicians in 1991, with the goal of capturing the voices and experiences of veteran players (at least 70 years old, some with up to 75 years in the business).
• “It just became something that was very integral to my life.” (02:28)

Purpose and Focus of the Book

• The book is a celebration, not a critique, focusing on musicians Zimmerman admires.

  “I wanted to show a range of styles... It’s really a celebration of jazz.” — Peter C. Zimmerman (04:55)

• Not focused on music theory—Zimmerman is a journalist, not a practicing musician.

Selecting Jazz Subgenres: Swing and Bebop

• Excludes avant-garde and most fusion jazz, focusing on "straight ahead" or mainstream jazz.
• Describes swing and bebop as dominant, formative styles in jazz.
• Musicians’ adaptability: Many played various genres for livelihood.

  “You can't really pigeonhole musicians... they’re not just one thing.” — Peter C. Zimmerman (07:10)

The Age Divide in Jazz Audiences

• Jazz is among the least popular music genres today (about 1% of music sales).
• Devoted younger fans exist, but most jazz listeners skew older.

  “People who like it really like it a lot.” — Peter C. Zimmerman (08:35)

Book Organization and Interview Approach

• Grouped interviews by commonalities (e.g., musicians from Chicago, members of Local 802, etc.), not chronologically or alphabetically.
• Each section includes brief introductions and personal commentary.
• Includes a recommended discography and an extensive index.

Local 802: Musicians’ Union

• Local 802 is the largest musicians’ union in the USA (about 7,000 members).
• Plays a crucial role in securing fair pay and pensions for musicians.

Art Blakey’s Influence

• Coincidentally, over a third of the musicians interviewed played with Art Blakey and the Jazz Messengers.
• Zimmerman learns new aspects of his subjects through research and post-interview correspondence.

Memorable Interview Stories & Quotes

Clifford Jordan on Complexity in Music and Early Rap (16:58)

“Songs today are so complex that you have to listen to all these microscopic bits and pieces... Before, it was always tiptoeing through the tulips... Songs like Stardust... Rap is kind of complex because they're talking politically... we were rapping when we were five, six years old, talking about one another’s mother. Same kind of rhythm and everything... That's what rap is, just rhythmic, you know, hambone—the gift of gab.”

Sonny Rollins on Improvisation (22:22)

“I always wing it because I think that’s what jazz improvisation is... It’s about improvising at a subconscious level... ‘Winging it’ is, I would consider, a desultory way of just describing jazz improvisation. But... that’s what improvisation is about. That’s what Louis Armstrong did when he was creating his masterpieces. He was winging it.” — Sonny Rollins, via Zimmerman

Interviewing Sonny Rollins (24:11)

• Zimmerman describes the serendipity of meeting Rollins at a local post office, eventually leading to multiple phone interviews.
• Rollins was thoughtful and somewhat guarded, aware of his words’ weight.
• Rollins once sent Zimmerman a card with a personal anecdote about "Cabin in the Sky" and segregation—a prized possession for Zimmerman.
• Rollins is described as the most famous straight-ahead jazz musician still alive at the time of the interviews.

Jimmy Owens on African Roots of Improvisation (28:31)

“Improvisation is an integral part of jazz music... All of the music had a reason to be performed when someone died... for birth... for a wedding... This is all part of the kinds of things that were happening in Africa. This is all part of the tradition that, when it came from Africa, it got watered down a little bit every place it stopped.”

Steve Turre’s “Tale of Rahsaan’s Conch” (39:09)

• Turre learns to play seashells from Rahsaan Roland Kirk, a multi-instrumentalist known for playing three saxophones at once and using circular breathing.
• Anecdote: During a disruptive audience, Rahsaan played a continuous note on the conch shell for five minutes, silencing them and creating a magical moment in the club.

Buster Williams on Learning from Heroes (46:44)

“...As I've gotten older, I've thought more about the ages of these people. I played with Miles Davis... when I was 25, 26 years old, and Miles was in his early 40s... I was able to walk with my heroes... Their music was their humanity, and their music was their humbleness because they were servants to the music. The music is the master, and we serve the music. That’s what I learned from them. I never got the feeling from any of these great people who I played with that they were above the music.”

Notable Quotes & Moments with Timestamps

• (02:28) “I decided to interview older musicians who are at least 70 years old… all the musicians have had at least 50 years of experience as professional musicians… I wanted to ask them about their careers and what they thought about music and life.” — Peter C. Zimmerman
• (04:55) “I wanted to show a range of styles… I think I said elsewhere it's really a celebration of jazz. And so it's not criticism.” — Peter C. Zimmerman
• (07:10) “You can't really pigeonhole musicians because they're not just one thing.” — Peter C. Zimmerman, recounting Dick Hyman
• (16:58) Clifford Jordan’s view on complexity in modern music, rap, and early childhood “rapping.”
• (22:22) Sonny Rollins on “winging it” in improvisation, equating real jazz performance with subconscious creativity.
• (28:31) Jimmy Owens on the African origins of improvisation in jazz.
• (39:09) Steve Turre’s anecdote about Rahsaan Roland Kirk using a conch shell to silence a noisy audience.
• (46:44) Buster Williams reflecting on the humility and humanity of jazz legends: “Their music was their humanity, and their music was their humbleness because they were servants to the music. The music is the master, and we serve the music.”

Structural Highlights

• Organization by groupings: Chicago musicians, union leaders (Local 802), “philosophers,” “old school,” etc.
• Inclusion of discography and extensive index at the publisher’s request.

Reflections & Closing Notes

• Many interviewees remain Zimmerman’s friends; several have passed away since the project began in 2011.
• Jazz as a living, evolving, but underappreciated art form in the modern musical landscape.
• Zimmerman’s new project is a deeply personal genealogical exploration tracing his mother’s family lineage back to 18th-century Scotland.

Closing

• The Jazz Masters is recommended for both jazz novices and seasoned fans.
• To purchase the book or request a signed copy, visit thejazmastersbook.com.

Additional Resources:

• Jazz featured in the episode (discography mentioned in book)
• Zimmerman’s Website

End of Summary