Podcast Summary

Overview

Podcast: New Books Network
Episode: Peter Stansky, "The Socialist Patriot: George Orwell and War" (Stanford UP, 2023)
Host: Morteza Hajizadeh
Guest: Professor Peter Stansky (Emeritus Professor of History, Stanford University)
Date: January 31, 2026

This episode explores Professor Peter Stansky's new book, The Socialist Patriot: George Orwell and War. The conversation delves into George Orwell's personal and political transformations, focusing especially on his experiences with war, his conception of socialism, and the ongoing relevance and appropriation of his works.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Background and Personal Connection to Orwell

• Stansky’s Academic Path and Interest in Orwell:
  • Came to Orwell through intersecting interests in literature, society, politics, and culture in England.
  • His initial encounter with Orwell was reading 1984 during secondary school, inspired by his parents' membership in the Book of the Month Club.
  • Wrote his Yale undergraduate senior essay on four Englishmen in the Spanish Civil War, including Orwell, marking the start of a lifelong scholarly engagement.
  • Attempted to write about Orwell amid obstacles stemming from Orwell’s widow, Sonia Brownell, and debates regarding biographical work.
  • (Quote) “But it was through an interest in English society and the Spanish Civil War that initially got me interested in Orwell.” (03:06 - 07:00)
• Focus of the Book:
  • Stansky’s book uniquely highlights the influence of both World Wars on Orwell, arguing that sufficient attention has not been paid to this aspect previously.
  • (Quote) “I think the most original contribution of my short book is the discussion of those two wars.” (08:42)

2. Orwell’s Upbringing and Class

• Class and Early Life:
  • Born in India to a British colonial family, with the family’s declining fortune rooted in Jamaican slave plantations. His class status was secured but not his wealth.
  • Orwell termed himself “lower upper middle class”—an upper middle class background without financial security.
  • (Quote) “He very famously says, I'm a Member of the lower upper middle class, which means that I'm a member of the upper middle class but without money and class in England is tremendously important.” (09:29)
• Patriotism and Socialism:
  • Stalin’s upbringing and education entrenched in him a sense of patriotism, but also set the stage for his later conversion to socialism—a process that was gradual and not a radical break.
  • (Quote) “He was always intensely patriotic...but at the same time...a totally committed socialist.” (13:48 - 14:49)

3. Education and Gradual Shift to Socialism

• Eton College and Early Views:
  • Attended Eton on scholarship. Was not overtly political; rather, he was iconoclastic and inquisitive.
  • First piece of writing—a patriotic poem urging enlistment—marked his initial mainstream positions.
  • (Quote) “He was never a figure of the right but I would certainly think he was more in the center or maybe didn't think that much about politics when he was a young man.” (17:20)
• Formative Experiences:
  • Time as a colonial police officer in Burma planted seeds of anti-imperialism but primarily motivated by his desire to write.
  • Key political shift came with research for The Road to Wigan Pier and experiences in the Spanish Civil War.
  • (Quote) “The wonders of when he went to Barcelona in December 1936, how wonderful the atmosphere was, that he saw the magnificent society...that socialism could achieve. And that's when he became a committed socialist.” (20:54 - 21:45)

4. Orwell’s Democratic Socialism and Anti-Authoritarianism

• Views on Socialism:
  • Orwell was not a theorist or programmatic planner; instead, he believed in practical socialism—egalitarianism, state control of key industries, and “common decency.”
  • He criticized both Soviet-style communism and certain British leftists, cautioning about power’s corrupting influence.
  • (Quote) “His belief that if the working class weren't financially oppressed, that common decency would triumph.” (24:02)
• Power and Corruption:
  • Warned that all revolutions risk being co-opted by new elites; cited the Lord Acton phrase, “Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.”
  • (Quote) “He profoundly believed that...the only way that socialism could be preserved if the leaders of the state, the people who were running it, changed frequently.” (25:48)

5. The Lion and the Unicorn: Socialism and the English Genius

• Vision for Wartime and Postwar Britain:
  • In this 1941 pamphlet, Orwell argued that Britain must move toward socialism to win WWII, advocating for egalitarian reforms (many of which were not fully realized).
  • (Quote) “He said that in order to mobilize society efficiently ... in order to win the war, Britain will have to become socialist. But he was wrong.” (31:38 - 32:00)
• UK’s Wartime Shift:
  • War did move Britain towards a welfare state, but not full socialism as Orwell predicted.
  • Satirically incorrect in predictions that the House of Lords and public schools would be abolished postwar, but did foresaw an expanded safety net and more inclusion.
  • (Quote) “But then the conception did grow during the war... that everybody, all the inhabitants of the state have to be treated equally. And in a way that's a definition of socialism, that Orwell believed in.” (33:20 - 34:29)

6. Contemporary Relevance and Right-Wing Appropriation

• Why Has Orwell’s Popularity Endured?
  • Surge in popular interest (especially for 1984 and Animal Farm) with the rise of populism, digital surveillance, and the debate over "truth" in politics.
  • (Quote) “Trump has been absolutely fabulous for Orwell... alternate facts, when his press agent... talked about alternate facts and alternate reality...sales of 1984 skyrocketed.” (38:54 - 40:38)
• Right-Wing Appropriation of Orwell:
  • Despite being a self-identified socialist and Labour Party supporter, Orwell’s critique of authoritarianism is often used out of context by conservatives to bolster anti-socialist agendas.
  • (Quote) “He had time to issue with Life magazine and elsewhere denials. I'm a socialist, I'm a supporter of the Labour Party and I profoundly disagree with people saying it's a document to show that socialism is inevitably bad and evil.” (37:54)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Class Identity & Patriotism:
  • “He very famously says, I'm a Member of the lower upper middle class, which means that I'm a member of the upper middle class but without money...” (09:29, Peter Stansky)
• On Socialist Commitment after Spain:
  • “That's when he became a committed socialist. It's also when he became a committed anti-communist because he saw how the Russians and the communists...were destroying socialism.” (21:45, Peter Stansky)
• On Anti-Authoritarianism:
  • “The famous slogan or remark by Lord Acton, power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. And Orwell profoundly believed that.” (25:39, Peter Stansky)
• On Enduring Relevance:
  • “We haven't quite gotten to the era of telescreens, but the feeling that these machines and other people know much more about us than we might wish...” (39:59, Peter Stansky)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [03:06 – 09:03] Stansky’s academic background, first encounters with Orwell, and book origins
• [09:29 – 16:09] Orwell's family, childhood, and formation of patriotic identity
• [16:09 – 22:44] Eton College, early writings, Burma police service, gradual political shift
• [22:44 – 31:24] Development of Orwell’s socialism, definition and critique of socialism
• [31:24 – 35:55] The Lion and the Unicorn, wartime observations, and postwar predictions
• [35:55 – 41:29] Orwell’s resurgence and appropriation by both left and right today

Conclusion

Peter Stansky’s conversation sheds new light on George Orwell’s evolution as both patriot and socialist. The podcast offers a rich exploration of how experiences of class, education, imperial service, and especially wartime shaped Orwell’s worldview—revealing him as a complex figure whose relevance endures amid today’s political challenges. Professor Stansky’s nuanced perspective helps clarify why Orwell remains an intellectual touchstone for debates on power, truth, and society.