Podcast Summary

Podcast: New Books Network

Episode: Philip J. Stern, "Empire, Incorporated: The Corporations That Built British Colonialism" (Harvard UP, 2023)

Host: Thomas Kingston

Guest: Philip J. Stern (Associate Professor of History, Duke University)

Date: January 4, 2026

Episode Overview

In this intellectually rich episode, Thomas Kingston interviews Philip J. Stern about his groundbreaking book "Empire, Incorporated: The Corporations That Built British Colonialism." Stern's work examines how corporations—ranging from joint-stock enterprises to chartered companies—were fundamental to the making and maintenance of the British Empire. The discussion traverses the treacherous boundaries between business and politics, the historical continuity of corporate models, and the dizzying complexity of individuals and motives shaping imperial expansion over several centuries.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Genesis and Ambition of the Book

• Continuity from Previous Work: Stern’s earlier book on the East India Company ("The Company State") led him to realize that corporations played central roles throughout British imperial history, not just in India (03:27).
• Expanding Perspective: The project moved from a narrow focus on the East India Company to a broader exploration of myriad companies and corporate forms across time and space.
  "The more I dug, the more surprised I was about just how pervasive this model was. But many of them did not look like the East India Company..." (04:28)
• Against Simple Dichotomies: Stern’s research challenges the division between “formal” and “informal” empire, state and company, success and failure, and between historical eras.

Methodology and Challenges

• Intellectual & Legal Biography: The book is described as an intellectual biography of a concept, tracing the evolution of the corporation through centuries and across imperial geographies (13:35).
• Disciplinary Boundaries: Stern laments the artificial divides between business, imperial, and area histories, arguing such divides obscure our understanding of corporate imperialism's reach (23:39).
• Difficulty of Synthesis: Crafting a narrative that is both broad and deep across centuries, regions, and sectors posed immense synthetic challenges (13:35–16:25).
• Impact of COVID-19: The pandemic forced reliance on digital sources and secondary syntheses, unexpectedly enriching the project (20:40).

The Corporation as Imperial Actor

• Origins of Corporate Power: Stern roots the corporation's hybrid political/economic DNA in medieval Europe, where municipal, church, and university corporations shaped early ideas of governance (25:38).
• Endemic Ambiguity: The relationship between the state and corporations is inherently fraught—sometimes symbiotic, sometimes antagonistic, always entangled.
  • "You might think of them as frenemies historically...they also are born from the same cut, from the same cloth." (28:20)
• Portfolio Colonialism: Individuals could participate in multiple companies and interests, blurring lines of public, private, and national loyalties.

Evolution, Failure, and Diversity in Empire

• Experimentation and Failures: Stern emphasizes that failure and improvisation were as common as success; corporate projects often floundered or devolved, shaping the empire's course (36:34).
  • “All those failures amount up to a phenomenon...” (07:03)
• Diverse Cast of Actors: Beyond famous imperialists like Clive or Raffles, the landscape teemed with administrators, promoters, and outcasts each impacting the imperial project (38:15).
  • He notes the example of Edward Gibbon Wakefield, whose dubious personal history undercuts the idea of an elite-driven empire (41:45).

National Identity, Legitimacy, and Historical Memory

• Transnational Character: Many “British” companies featured foreign investors, staff, and fluid national loyalties (31:53).
• Legitimacy through Historical Narrative: Succeeding generations used the precedent of corporate colonialism to legitimize each new venture, even when actual practices transformed (42:48).
  • “One of the arguments for company colonialism was not that it was a novel innovation, but that this is how it had always been done, right?” (42:56)

Surprising Discoveries and Further Research

• Archive Surprises: Stern describes the continual sense of discovery and the unexpected ubiquity and entanglement of corporate enterprises throughout imperial history (47:10).
  • “I really didn’t expect to find so many lurking under every rock and around every corner.” (50:40)
• Future Work: He expresses an interest in pursuing more detailed case studies and in exploring lessons from privatized colonization for understanding future projects, such as space colonization (51:41–53:30).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "The more I dug, the more surprised I was about just how pervasive this model was. But many of them did not look like the East India Company..."
  — Philip J. Stern (04:28)

• "We tend to sometimes look back...and see a lot of the phenomena of corporate power today compared to the East India Company. What I wanted to look at is how these things evolved over time. So it’s a lot like genetics – you can see family resemblances, but maybe not identical."
  — Philip J. Stern (13:43)

• "The relationship between, say, corporations and government...you might think of them as frenemies historically...but they also are born from the same cut, from the same cloth."
  — Philip J. Stern (28:20)

• “There’s no way, as a kind of abstraction or general model, to determine, you know, well, are they bringing their corporate interest to their work in the state, or...are they funneling state policy through these companies?”
  — Philip J. Stern (31:20)

• “Success and failure are both central to the imperial project; all those failures amount up to a phenomenon.”
  — Philip J. Stern (07:03, paraphrased throughout)

• "Figures like Raffles or Clive...they're critical. But...while individuals are super important in driving these stories, they're also conditioned by the structures through which they work, that institutions matter."
  — Philip J. Stern (41:09)

• "The state's empire is built by incorporating or cobbling together other forms of colonial enterprise that may have started elsewhere. Corporations are one of those."
  — Philip J. Stern (33:20)

Noteworthy Timestamps

• 02:08 – Introduction to Philip J. Stern and the focus on corporations in empire
• 03:27 – Origin of Stern’s approach and shift from the East India Company to the broader phenomenon
• 07:03 – The significance of failed companies and the evolutionary nature of imperial enterprise
• 13:35 – Challenges of writing synthetic, deeply detailed history across disciplines and eras
• 20:40 – How the limitations of the COVID-19 era shaped sources and narrative
• 23:39 – Critique of disciplinary divides and their limitations
• 25:38 – Deep dive into the perennial corporate/state relationship and the origins of corporate power
• 28:20 – "Frenemies" – The corporation and the state
• 36:34 – The evolutionary process of corporate failure and unintended empire consequences
• 38:15 – Diversity of people and motivations behind corporate colonization (including scandalous figures like Wakefield)
• 47:10 – Surprising lessons, discoveries, and the complexity of the archival record
• 51:41 – On what’s next for Stern and the relevance of corporate colonialism to new frontiers like space

Conclusion

Stern’s “Empire, Incorporated” challenges conventional historical narratives by placing corporations—not the state—at the center of empire-building. Through detailed research and conceptual clarity, he shows that the joint-stock model underpinned not just much of the British Empire’s expansion but also our own modern dilemmas about the public/private divide, national identity, and the ambiguous legitimacy of institutional power. The podcast makes a compelling case for rethinking how we tell the story of empire and offers tantalizing hints at how these lessons apply to our contemporary world and potentially even to the future of human colonization.