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Philip Wingeier-Rayo, "John Wesley and the Origins of Methodist Missions" (Abingdon Press, 2025)
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Byung Ho Choi
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Dr. Philip Wengayo Rayo
Welcome to the New Books Network.
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Byung Ho Choi
Hello everyone, and welcome to World Christianity in New Books Network. This podcast is for those who would like to explore the expansive discourse on World Christianity as a global phenomenon and as an emerging field that examines Christianity's cross cultural thesporic and transnational manifestations by paying close attention to the underrepresented and marginalized expressions of the Christian faith in the global South. Thank you for joining me today. I'm very excited to share this interview with you all. I'm your host Byung Ho Choi from Princeton Theological Seminary. John Wesley and the Origins of Methodist Missions, written by Philip Wengayo Rayo and published by abingdon press in 2025, invites us to take a fresh look at one of the most influential figures in the history of world Christianity. While many of us know John Wesley as the co founder of the Methodist movement, this book challenges some of our assumptions about his role in the origins of Methodist missions. It is widely recognized that Wesley led the Methodist movement that spread across the world in the 18th century, and he is known for his time as a missionary in Georgia, his heartwarming adverse gate experience, his field of preaching, and the famous quote, the world is my parish. Yet this book reveals his surprising reluctance to send missionaries overseas, highlighting moments when he resisted or even hindered such efforts. Instead, the book shows how ordinary people immigrants, merchants, soldiers, enslaved persons, and others were the ones who carried Methodism abroad. Though not officially commissioned, they were driven by their faith to share the gospel. Only after these communities were established and after repeated appeals did Wesley and the British Conference send missionaries to support them. In doing so, the book not only explains Wesley's hesitancy but also brings to light the overlooked pioneers who played a crucial role in spreading Methodism around the world. During our interview today, we will delve deeper into Dr. Wengayo Rayo's groundbreaking work and how this book sets out to make a significant contribution to not only students and scholars of world Christianity, but also mission history and Methodism. To learn more about these issues and more, please stay tuned and we hope that you enjoy the book and our conversation as well. Today we are privileged to to talk with Dr. Philip Wengayo Raio, the author of John Wesley and the Origins of Methodist Missions. Philip Wengaia Raio is the Executive Director of Education and the General Board of Higher Education and Ministry of the United Methodist Church. He is professor of World Christianity, Missiology and Methodist Studies at Wesley Theological seminary in Washington, D.C. and continues to teach courses in the areas of mission, world religions and Methodist history and doctrine. He has also served as Dean at Wesley from 2018 to 2022. His research interests are at the intersection of missiology, Methodist studies, Pentecostalism, migration studies, and liberation theology. His academic work is informed by his upbringing in Singapore and 15 years of missionary experience where he served in Nicaragua, Cuba, Mexico, and the Rio Grande Valley in South Texas near the border with Mexico. Other than the book that we are going to talk about today, he has also published four single monographs which are first, where are the A Comparison of Ecclesial Based Communities and Pentecostalism, A Case Study in Cuernavaca, Mexico, published in 2011 Cuban Methodism the Untold Story of Survival and revival, published in 2006 and two monographs written in Spanish about evangelization and missions and the Bible through the Eyes of John Wesley, published in 2019 and 2020. Welcome, Dr. Wengayarayo, to New Books in World Christianity. And thank you so much for being on the podcast to discuss your book.
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Dr. Philip Wengayo Rayo
Well, thank you so much for the invitation. Byung Ho it's an honor to be here and I look forward to the conversation.
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Byung Ho Choi
Again, thank you so much, Phil. It is a great honor to have you join me today to talk about your work, John Wesley and the origins of Methodist Mission. But before we take a closer look of our exquisite work, of your exquisite work, I think it will be great if we could start today's conversation by getting to know you better. Do you mind saying a few words about yourself, that is where you grew up, where you did your PhD and how you became interested in your field of study? And do please feel free to mention any influential interlocutors that might have shaped your academic journey?
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Dr. Philip Wengayo Rayo
Absolutely, yes. Well, as you mentioned in the introduction, I was born in Singapore. My parents were missionaries there and I spent my early childhood in Singapore and then our family moved to the Chicago area and so I grew up in Evanston, Illinois, and I had a pretty normal childhood. I knew my parents were missionaries, but I didn't really anticipate that God would lead me in the same direction. But in my senior year of college, I was praying and discerning about my next steps and I received a brochure about a program to do young adult mission work. And so I called the number and got more information and applied and was accepted and was sent to Central America as as a young adult missionary. So this is how I I got into missions and then I started doing some family history. And I didn't know this, but my great grandparents were also missionaries in Southeast Asia. They were missionaries living in Singapore but serving in Indonesia and what was called Malaya back then and Sarawak. And my great grandfather was a church planter, an evangelist in in the predominantly Muslim areas of what is today Malaysia and Indonesia. So I have this as a part of my family ancestry and through my time as a missionary, I got very passionate in learning about John Wesley and how Methodism started and spread around the world. So that's how I got into this topic.
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Byung Ho Choi
Wonderful. Thank you so much. One of the things that I really enjoyed reading your work and also getting to know you better, Phil, is that I also am a missionary's kid whose parents is also currently living in Indonesia. So one of the similarities that I found was that we share that Southeast Asian kind of background growing up there as well. And it's wonderful to hear, learn about your history, your family background, but also what motivated, in a way, I think, your studies as well, too. So, once again, thank you so much for sharing about your background and about your. How you grew up.
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Dr. Philip Wengayo Rayo
Thank you. Yeah, I didn't realize that your parents were missionaries in Indonesia. That's a wonderful connection.
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Byung Ho Choi
It is. And one of the great benefits about these podcast interviews is that we get to listen what goes beyond kind of what takes place beyond the covers of the book itself. So at this time, Phil, I would love to invite you to tell us a little bit more about how you came to write this book, John Wesley and the Origins of Methodist Missions. I remember reading in your acknowledgments that this project was. That took over 10 years in the making. And I was wondering if you can share a little bit more about how this project began and what led you to writing this monograph. And if I can squeeze one more question in there, did anything in your research kind of surprise you or challenge your own assumptions about Methodist mission history?
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Dr. Philip Wengayo Rayo
So, absolutely, yeah. Well, I was a missionary in Cuba, and in the time we were there, the church began to experience a charismatic renewal. And so that was different from my experience with Methodism, which was a little bit more traditional. And so one day I went to the library of the seminary and I found Wesley's works, and I began to read in his own voice his understanding of Methodism and the history of the Methodist movement. So that's how I got interested in him. And as you know, as you're. You're Studying your. Your PhD in the academic world, there are conferences that are going on around the world, and they often send out a call for papers. And so I would read the call for papers, and I'd think, well, what am I researching that could fit? And so I would do a proposal and say, I'm going to write a paper on this topic, whatever I was studying at the time. And when the paper was accepted, I would go to the conference, deliver the paper, and at these Sessions, your colleagues who are interested in similar topics ask you questions. Have you considered this? Or did you, have you heard about this figure or this book or this author? And this would give me more material. So I began to write these papers, attend these conferences, get feedback, and often one paper would feed into the next paper through, through the comments, the questions of the audience. And so I would say, well, what about this? And, and after I had about three or four of these, I thought, well, there is a connection here. These are not separate projects. This is a continuation of an ongoing project. And so I started with John Wesley and learned about his experience in Georgia and then the influence of the Moravians on his understanding. And then I just kept going back in history. Well, who influenced the Moravians? Well, the Piochus movement, the Lutherans, you know, who, who influenced them? Well, the, the Roman Catholics. And so I started with John Wesley and then worked back in time and then I started moving forward in time and when I discovered that John Wesley was reluctant, he had several invitations, people asking him to send missionaries, and he turned them down. Then I got curious and I said, well, if John Wesley didn't want to send missionaries, how did it get here? You know, how did it get to Cuba? How did it get to the United States? How did it get to India? And so I started following the dots and saying, well, you know, actually it was this person who arrived who started the First Methodist Church. And so that's how the project was strung together, basically through curiosity of asking the next question and say, well, if, if this isn't true, then how did this happen?
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Byung Ho Choi
Wonderful. It's great to hear this. How conference papers also help you lead into publishing this important work and how pulling on one thread leads to finding a new topic and more information about a certain figure, about a certain movement, and about a certain Christianity. So again, thank you for that answer. As we begin to open the pages of your book, Phil, we can see that there are a total of 11 chapters which includes the introduction and the conclusion, along with a robust 18 page bibliography that can be an incredible resource for further studies for students and scholars that are interested in learning more about history of missions, Methodist studies, and even John Wesley. So for our listeners who might be interested, I think this 18 page bibliography will be a great form of research for them. You have also thoughtfully organized this book into three parts. Part one, which covers chapter one through three, examines the context of world missions leading up to the birth of Methodist movement. Part two entails chapters four through six, which focus on John Wesley's relationship with world missions, his theology and his personal encounters with non Christians. And part three, which comprises of chapters seven through 11, traces the global spread of Methodism to various places around the world, despite Wesley's resistance. So before we take a closer look into the chapters of your book, Phil, I have to address the elephant in the room. Just by reading the title of your monograph, John Wesley and the Origins of Methodist Missions, I think people will approach your work thinking it's another hagiography or a biography of John Wesley, the co founder of Methodism and his heart for global missions, especially with his saying, quote, the world is my parish, which is widely known among Methodists and missionary circles. However, surprisingly, that is not actually the intent of your book. I know we repeatedly mentioned. You also mentioned this as well. Right from the introduction of your book, you state that John Wesley was not a proponent of world missions and that he even discouraged it. Moreover, your goal is to show that Methodism became a worldwide missional movement through the work of unheralded laypersons who are immigrants, soldiers, merchants, planters, enslaved persons, and former slaves who took the initiative to share their faith and start Methodist societies wherever they landed. End quote. So, Phil, I was wondering if you mind speaking more about this important objective that you have set for your work. Who do you have in mind as your targeted readers? And could you talk more about what I just mentioned, what your goal was for this book itself?
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Dr. Philip Wengayo Rayo
Yeah, thank you for the question. Byun Ho, you're absolutely right. The hypothesis that I put forward in the book is that John Wesley was not the proponent of world missions, that it was started by ordinary everyday Christians who are going about their life. And in the process of the movement that's happening in the 18th century, there is the migration of Europeans who are going to places like North America, Caribbean, Australia, and through the colonial enterprise, there's the constant movement of people. In the case of Africans who are kidnapped and sold into slavery in the Americas, you have merchants, you have soldiers, you have sailors, you have planters, enslaved persons. And they carry their faith with them. And where they, when they get to their, their, their, their new land, they plant their seeds, they plant, they put down roots, and they share their faith with those around them. And so my hypothesis is that this phrase the world is my parish is not actually a call for world missions. It was ordinary people who carry their faith with them. And that's how Methodism spread around the world.
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Byung Ho Choi
Yeah. So for our listeners, do please remember this as kind of the backbone of our conversation as we move forward, because this will be, you know, we'll come back to this a time and a time again throughout our conversation that we'd we're not only just looking at John Wesley's life and his perspective on missions, but also we're thinking about those that have gone into these new lands and new territories, new parts of the world, to spread the Christian faith and establish Methodist societies. So I hope that our listeners and future readers will keep that in mind as we continue on our conversation. So, Phil, segueing into now, Chapter one, I must say that while the first half of the book might extensively cover John Wesley's life and the context of which he was living in, it is, again, not another typical biography. Instead, what I appreciate about the beginning chapters of your book is that you take a biographical approach in retracing the history of Methodist mission, of taking a deep dive into John Wesley's life through the lens of missions. So in looking at chapter one, Phil, I think the important question you are asking here is what influenced John Wesley's perspective on missions early on in his life? And in addressing this question, you pinpoint several important factors that influenced him, such as his family, his father and his grandfather, and the socioeconomic and political situation before and during Wesley's time. However, what caught my attention here was John Wesley's trip to the colony of Georgia, which really opened his eyes to what was going on outside of Britain. So, Phil, could you explain more about this trip, Wesley's trip to Georgia, and what kind of impact it had on him?
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Dr. Philip Wengayo Rayo
Yeah, thank you for the question. Byeong ho. Before I get into Wesley's experience in Georgia, just to highlight a little bit more of your summary of the first chapter. John Wesley grew up in a home that the family was well educated. His father had a study, he was a priest of the Church of England, and they often loaned Wesley books. And so he was well beyond his years as far as knowledge of the world around him. And also the 18th century was a period of increased travel. You had the colonial, the British colonial enterprise. This is when Captain Cook was traveling to the Pacific and writing up his journals and sending these back home. And Wesley read these newspapers, he read accounts of missionaries, he read these travel logs. And this kind of just awakened his understanding of the world around him. And also, Britain was constantly involved in these wars, wars with France, wars with Spain, and oftentimes they were colonial wars over territories. And so Wesley was abreast of this from a very young age. He was a voracious reader reading all types. He read Christian literature, he read the classics, he read scientific journals. And so this influenced his world vision. And so he was very aware of the context of what was happening in current events, but also historically, how the history of the world influenced his moment in history. So, moving on to your question about Georgia, this was another one of my surprises. People often say John Wesley was a missionary to Georgia, but that isn't technically correct, because he wanted to go and evangelize Native Americans. And there was a missionary society called the Society for the Propagation of the Gospel in foreign parts. That society existed, but he did not travel under the auspices of that organization. He was invited by the Trustees of the Colony of Georgia. And so he was really a volunteer. He got on the ship thinking, I'm going to go evangelize Native Americans. When he got aboard, unbeknownst to him, the Society for the Propagation of the Gospel was meeting in London, and they named him a missionary to Georgia without his consent. And they offered him a salary, which he never accepted. When he got to Georgia, the colony had decided that the previous priest who was there was not adequate. And so James Oglethorpe, who was the general, who was the kind of the chair of the board of trustees, asked Wesley to stay in Savannah and to serve as the parish priest. They needed somebody who could baptize Mary, who could be in the parsonage they called the rectory and take care of the parish affairs. So that kind of thwarted his original plans of going out and evangelizing Native Americans. And so that part of the experience frustrated him. But he did gain great experience as a parish priest. This was really the first time, even though he was ordained, that he served as a parish priest. And he gained great experience just preaching and teaching and baptizing and. And doing parish ministry. So he had a frustrating experience in Georgia in that he fell in love with a young woman named Sophie Hopke. But when he consulted with his brother Charles, he consulted with the Moravian bishop, Spangenberg. They discouraged him from pursuing this relationship and broke it off. She quickly married somebody else. And at one point, she came forward to receive Holy Communion, and Wesley denied her Holy Communion. So her new husband reported Wesley, and they brought up legal charges against him. And so he was arraigned with these charges, and rather than face them, he decided to escape. And so he slipped into South Carolina, went to the port in Charleston and got on a ship and came back to London. And so he considered himself kind of a. A failure that this time in Georgia was a failure, which may have been one of the reasons why later on he did not have a positive Feeling about, about missions, he, his experience with Native Americans was frustrated. The experience in the colonies was, was disappointing. And so I think that experience in Georgia may have just given him a negative connotation of doing mission work around the world, of course.
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Byung Ho Choi
Well, thank you for that deep insight. For many of our readers who might not be familiar with that historical background, I think this will be kind of very enlightening for one to learn more about John Wesley and how this, his perspective on missions really, you know, formed in the early part of his ministry and early part of his life as well. Segueing into Now Chapter 3, titled Moravian Contributions to Methodist Missions. Here Phil, you highlight the contributions that Moravians made to world missions, especially John Wesley's encounter with Moravians and the lasting impact on that the Moravians had on Methodism as well. Some of the noticeable impact that you highlight were the Moravians emphasis on small groups and church unity along with the practice of love feasts and more. So I was wondering if you can tell us more about this Moravian missionary movement and what made their approach so distinctive and how did John Wesley both learn from and critique the Moravians in ways that influenced the development of Methodism?
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Dr. Philip Wengayo Rayo
Oh, the Moravians were groundbreakers in world missions, especially among Protestants. Right up until this point in history, all missionaries worked under the auspices of their government. So if you were Roman Catholic, you had the support of your government. If you were Lutheran, you had the support of your government. If you were the Church of England, you had the support of your government. And they often worked in the colonies of your, of your crown. The Moravians were the first missionaries to go out independently. There was no government, there was no mission board. And Wesley encountered them on the ship on his way to Georgia. And he traveled. He left England in December. And so he traveled during the winter months and there were major storms that arose and rocked the ship. And there in the middle of the night he would hear the Moravians singing and praying. And Wesley was scared to death. He thought he was going to drown. And so he approached the Moravians and said, aren't you afraid you're going to die? And the Moravians said, no, we are calm, we are peaceful, we know where we're going. And so that really impressed Wesley, so much so that he began to study German to communicate. And then when he got to Georgia, his rectory was not quite ready. The previous priest was still staying there. And so the Moravians said, well, you know, we have an extra bunk, you can stay with us. So he stayed with them for almost three weeks and was still very impressed by their faith. And he arranged his preaching schedule in Savannah so that he could attend their nightly prayer meetings. He set his schedule in such a way that he could do his work in the parish, but, but then also attend the Moravian meetings. And he was in Georgia about a year and a half, so that's quite a long sojourn. And then when he went back to London, he connected again with the Moravians and they invited him to their headquarters which is in Hernhutt, Germany. So he got on a ship, it went across to Amsterdam and then overland. And so he was really in deep with the Moravians. He visited their headquarters, stayed for a couple of weeks, and he learned about their small groups. And all of this was a big school for Wesley. He, he adopted, he borrowed so much from the Moravians, their, their love of, of song and, and hymns. They had a watch night service where they would have an agape meal, a love feast. All of this he adopted and appropriated when he started the Methodist movement.
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Byung Ho Choi
Well, thank you for that. I distinctly remember that you pinpoint in this chapter the exact things that kind of really impacted John Wesley. As you said, these love, practice of love feasts, and also this structure within the church. And I see a lot, you know now as well, understanding Methodists, how this also influenced, influenced Methodism as well. So thank you for that insight. I know we wish to cover chapter by chapter, but because of the time constraint we have, we will now segue into part two of your book which covers, you know, chapters four through six. In this next question, Phil, regarding chapter four, you take a deep dive into Wesley's complex relationship with missions. And, and this is kind of where we see the tension at the heart of your book. On the one hand, Methodism can be perceived as a missional movement, especially as you highlight this in this chapter, the significance of field preaching, small groups and lay leaders to spread the movement throughout England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland. However, on the other hand, you know, Wesley himself was very cautious, even resistant when it came to sending missionaries abroad. Phil, could you help us kind of unpack this tension? What were some of the reasons behind Wesley's reluctance to support overseas mission? I think you mentioned specific reasons in this chapter, but if you can just briefly highlight some of the things that you feel that is need that we could discuss today.
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Dr. Philip Wengayo Rayo
Absolutely. Byung Ho. And as you mentioned earlier, the book is entitled John Wesley and the Origins of Methodist Missions. But in my research, I continued to discover opportunities that were before him to send missionaries, and he was reluctant. He stymied he turned down these invitations. So as these immigrants traveled around the world and started missing Methodist societies, they would write a letter to him and they say, we're here, we have this mission society, but nobody's ordained, we can't baptize, we can't perform Holy Communion. Can you send us a missionary? And time after time, Wesley would deny that. He'd say no. And so I was puzzled. Well, you know, isn't the world our parish? You know, aren't you an evangelist? Aren't you trying to spread Methodism and spread the gospel around the world? And so I began to research and I asked myself, why wouldn't John Wesley want to support these missions around the world? It seems like a no brainer, but I, I spoke earlier about his experience in Georgia, and so I think that may have tarnished his opinion. And when he tried to evangelize Native Americans, there were language barriers, there were cultural differences. He thought that they were going to be like little children, I just can go and offer them catechism. But he realized that they were thinking human beings. They had their own religion, their own worldview, and they had their reasons why they didn't want to become Christian. The Spanish had been there before, the French had been there before, and they often forced them to become Christians
- [35:03]
Byung Ho Choi
with
- [35:04]
Dr. Philip Wengayo Rayo
the use of force. They tried to coerce them and they didn't want that. They wanted to make a choice. They wanted to be educated first and then decide if they wanted to become Christian. So Wesley had had these encounters with Native Americans and he realized that this mission work is not going to be easy. If he sends missionaries around the world, they are not always going to have success. Also he saw the Moravians. The Moravians were sending missionaries around the world and he learned about their experience. The Moravians sent to the Caribbean several missionaries, dozens. And many of them died. They were shipwrecked on the way there, or they got there and they had yellow fever and died. And so after sending out these dozens of missionaries, after a few years there was only three left. And they weren't necessarily very successful. The Moravians sent missionaries to Greenland and a couple years later somebody went to check on them and they found them on the beach eating seaweed, barely surviving. So Wesley knew all this and he said, well, this is a lot of resources. You have to send your preachers, you have to give them financial support. What is going to be the success rate? And so I think Wesley saw all this and thought, is this really the best use of my preachers? And one of his assistants, a priest by the name of Thomas Koch wrote up this missionary plan and said, we're going to send missionaries to Africa, we're going to send missionaries to India. And he even started raising money and he got volunteers to go. And Wesley found out about this plan and he scolded Cook. He says, I told you not to do that. This is the end of that project. So Wesley thwarted all those efforts. And I, I think that part of the reason was the negative experience in Georgia. Part of the reason was that he was a priest of the Church of England and so he sent out missionaries on behalf of who. The, the Church of England had a missionary society, society for the Propagation of the Gospel. So am I starting a new denomination? Who, who is going to ordain them? And so I think for all of these reasons, Wesley was very, very slow and very concerned about sending missionaries around the world.
- [37:43]
Byung Ho Choi
Thank you, Phil. It's kind of very enlightening to learn more about these perspectives. As many have thought Wesley was very, very adamant and very supportive of missions. But at the same time also we get to have an insider's look into some of the reasons why at the early on, you know, we, we see the difficulties that Wesley had to face or Wesley thought, you know, mission sending missionaries abroad was a bit of, you know, a challenge for him and also for his preachers thinking. Now segueing into chapter five, we also look at John Wesley and his encounter with non Christians. I consider this as one of my favorite chapters as it also aligns with some of my own personal research. As someone who also specializes in the history of religions, Phil, it was fascinating to see how you arranged how Wesley's perspective towards non Christians and cultures outside of his own evolved over time through various stages and through various means as well. I think you also mentioned how he's very, very adamant reader. He also relied on a lot of books, letters and also travel journals. But also we see Wesley having his personal experiences, also his relationships with non Christians as well. Here in this chapter you talk about Wesley's experiences, but I was wondering if you can talk more about how he understood the non Christian religions. How did his view evolve over time from ideas like quote, you know, his perspective on noble savage, if I may put it that way, and to a more now developed theological reflection on those who were non Christians. Do you mind talking a little bit more about this?
- [39:47]
Dr. Philip Wengayo Rayo
Absolutely. It's a great question. Well, I like the word you used, evolve because John Wesley was a thinking, growing, developing human being. I think the early Wesley was very exuberant, had very Enthusiastic. And as I mentioned, his desire to evangelize Native Americans. He had read about Native Americans and he understood, quote, that they were like a noble savage. And one of his goals with the Methodist movement was to go back and recover primitive Christianity. He wanted to go back to Acts chapter two, where the early Christians held all things in common and broke bread together and they sold their possessions to care for the orphans and the widows. He thought that was the essence of Christianity. And he thought that Native Americans had. That they lived together in community, they shared all their possessions. And so one of his goals of going and encountering Native Americans was to learn from them, to recover. And so he had this image that this was going to be easy to evangelize Native Americans, that they were innocent and they were, quote, like little children. And he thought that the west had been tarnished. The. The further we had drifted away from primitive Christianity, we had become too sophisticated, and we had. The society had been corrupt. So it was a personal goal, a spiritual goal to go and sojourn with Native Americans. But all of that burst because it was. It was too innocent. It was too. Too optimistic. And so he realized that they were complex human beings. And the same happened when he encountered people of other faiths. He encountered people who thought different from him. He encountered enslaved Africans, he encountered Jews, he encountered Roman Catholics. And all of them kind of burst this image that he had. And he realized that they were human beings. For example, when he was in Georgia, he met a Jew who was the name of Samuel Nunes, and he formed a relationship with him. And this is the first Jewish person that he had ever met. And he visited this person who lived in Savannah as. As part of the community. And they discussed the theology together. They read Paul. And of course, Nunes approached Paul from a Jewish perspective. Wesley approached him from a Christian perspective. But they had theological dialogues and conversations. So all of this opened up, or perhaps complexified his view of people of different faiths. And he realized that he couldn't be so. So arrogant, so condescending, and it was more of a mutual relationship. And so over time, his understanding of people, other faiths evolved and grew and matured. And towards the end of his life, he became very optimistic. He wrote more about eschatology and the end times, and he was less judgmental. He's like, that's God to stand decision. You know, who is going to be saved. That's not my job. And so he became very optimistic about the end times. And ultimately, it's all going to be in God's hands.
- [43:43]
Byung Ho Choi
Yeah, thank you for that insight. I, I realized as I was reading throughout this chapter, I see him become seeing more empathy towards those non Christians and those who he thought were outside his own faith. And as I mentioned, you know, the word evolve, you know, it changed over time. It wasn't just he didn't rush into judgment towards the later half. I think it changed over his encounters. And also I think I remember specifically how he learned more about Islam or Muslims through books and through these literary sources. So I thought that was also quite fascinating how you mentioned that too. Phil, the final section of your book now comprises of five chapters that deal specifically in featuring the global spread of Methodism to various places around the world. And before we look at Methodism missions, Methodist mission in the context of two specific regions today, Asia and Latin America, I first want to shift our attention to chapter eight, where you extensively cover the figure whose name is Thomas Koch. I know you mentioned him just recently, but still. So we would like to discuss more about who he was. Unlike John Wesley, Thomas Koch is often referred to as the Father of Methodist Missions or the Foreign Minister of Methodism. And he seems to have had a much stronger vision for organized global mission work. For our listeners who might be new to Thomas Koch, do you mind telling us more about who he was, his significance in Methodist missions? How did his vision, leadership and persistence help move Methodism toward becoming a global missionary movement?
- [45:33]
Dr. Philip Wengayo Rayo
Of course, yes. Thomas Koch was another one of my surprises as I worked through the chapters of this book. If John Wesley was not a proponent of world missions, then who was? And the answer is found in Thomas Coke. He was a priest in the Church of England, quite a bit younger than Wesley. And as he was in his parish, he began to read John Wesley's sermons, and he read John Fletcher, and he began to preach this theology in his parish, which was much more about salvation by faith. And the parishioners rose up because this wasn't the traditional theology that they had become accustomed to. And they eventually locked him, they locked the, padlocked the doors of the church. And so he wrote Wesley, and he said, can I join your movement? But Wesley said, no, you stay where you are, you continue to preach. But when he was finally kicked out, Wesley took him in. And Wesley was very pleased because he was well educated. He, in addition to a theology degree, he had a doctorate in law. And at this time in the movement, this is 1777, Wesley is 74 years old. Thomas Koch is much younger, about 40 years younger, and he has a law degree. And so Wesley needed Those skills. The movement had started to acquire property. They had built up a structure and Wesley was thinking about what is going to be my legacy. So Thomas Koch drew up a statute called the Declaration of Deeds, so that when John Wesley would pass, all the property would be held in a trust. And this allowed Wesley to navigate this narrow path between staying a part of the Church of England and becoming another denomination, declaring that he is a non conformist. Wesley, until the day he died, he was a priest in the Church of England. So he didn't want to give people the idea that he was starting a new church. But these documents allowed him to navigate that narrow path and continue on as a renewal movement within the Church of England. And it's only upon his passing that the properties would take become a new entity. So Thomas Koch drew this up and he was in a sense the lieutenant for Wesley. He would give him certain projects, he managed the printing press, he became a superintendent of the Methodist work in Ireland. And so he kept handing Coke these responsibilities until the American Revolutionary War happened. And at the conclusion of the war, it was clear that American Methodists were going to separate. And they were even threatening because there weren't missionaries there, they were threatening to ordain themselves and to carry out the sacraments. And Wesley did not want to do that. He didn't want to break with this apostolic succession. So he called Koch into his office very early in the morning on September 3, 1783, and he consecrated Coke as a superintendent. And in Greek a superintendent comes from the Greek word episcopoi, which we translate into English episcopal. So Wesley called him a superintendent, but he interpreted it to be a bishop. So Thomas Koch came to America and started the Methodist Episcopal Church in Baltimore in 1784. So Coke became superintendent of the work here in America. He also consecrated a co bishop in Francis Asbury. And then Koch started these missionary movements. He would recruit preachers and he found out that people needed preaching around the world and he would send them a missionary. He fundraised and he continued to support those missionaries going to the Caribbean, going to Canada, going to France. And his dream was to send missionaries to Africa and to India. These were new preaching areas. And so he was kind of a one man band in launching world missions for the Methodist Church. And so I think it was a generational difference between Wesley, who was very reluctant, and Coke, who was a part of this evangelical world revival. And he saw the opportunity.
- [50:51]
Byung Ho Choi
Quite interesting. Thank you for that. I had a wonderful opportunity. I was not that familiar with Thomas Cook, but through this Chapter I got to learn more about Thomas Cook and also how this missional movement also spread, you know, throughout the world as well, through this initiative. So in reading the next chapter, segueing into chapter nine, I was reminded of another familiar figure in World Christianity, Dr. Dana Robert, and her article written 20 years ago. In her article published in the International Bulletin of mission research in 2006, she argues that the demographic shift in world Christianity should be analyzed as a woman's movement. And this chapter, in a way, really hits the nail on the head. Chapter nine, titled Women in Mission Methodism in Asia. We turn our attention to women in mission, particularly in Asia, and highlights figures such as Clementia Roe Butler and the rise of Bible women educators and deaconesses. What I found especially compelling is how you show that women were not just, you know, supporting missions or in the background, but they were active participants. Phil, do you mind telling us more about the roles women played in Methodist missions in Asia and how their work expanded both the reach and the understanding of missions?
- [52:23]
Dr. Philip Wengayo Rayo
Absolutely. Well, originally, women were not allowed to be missionaries. As Dana Robert points out, the only way that women could be in missions is if they married a man who was a missionary and then they could go as the spouse. That was unpaid, but at least they could carry out their vocation. Then in 1869, a missionary who was in India, James Thoburn, he saw that the men could not reach the women in India. The culture was such that women were very private and men did not have access to those spaces. And so the girls were not being educated and they weren't receiving health care. And so James Thulberg, he wrote about this opportunity. So in Boston, a group of women gathered and they went to a church early on a Saturday morning, and they founded the Women's Foreign Missionary Society. And their purpose was to raise money to send women missionaries to India. And so two women were selected. One was a doctor and the other was an educator. One was the niece of Bishop James Thoberg, and the other was Clara Swain, who was a medical doctor. And this Women's Foreign Missionary Society raised the funds to send them to go to India. And one started a school and the other started a hospital for women. And then there were women who were from India and in the various countries of Asia, There were Korean women, there were Chinese women who went as Bible women. These were also women who could have access to these private spaces where only women in the home could. Could enter. And it was thanks to the these Bible women who could go and evangelize women and children that the Gospel really spread as. As fast as it did throughout Asia.
- [54:47]
Byung Ho Choi
I think looking remembering back to some of my own personal projects and research as well, and also doing interviews regarding other people's work, I remember reading about Bible women a lot, how they were really influential figures in spreading the Christian faith, especially in the regions, as you mentioned, Asia and so forth. So again, it was very nice to see you mentioned about Bible women, too, but also getting to know more about what was going on in parts of Asia, how the Gospel was spread, but also not through missionary men, but also missionary women too, and the role they played and the importance, believe it or not. We are already entering to the final chapter of discussing your book, Phil. And I was reminded of the sentence you begin your introduction and the conclusion, which is quote, methodism is known as a missional movement, end quote. Here in chapter 11, the final chapter, you take us into the Methodist missional movement into Latin America. But what makes this chapter especially rich is that ye situated with within a broader geopolitical and ecclesial context, including tensions between English and Spanish powers, the legacy of Catholic dominance in the region, and the challenges Protestant missionaries faced in entering that space. At the same time, you move beyond just denominational history and bring in the emergence of the ecumenical movement, particularly through gatherings such as the 1910 World Missionary Conference and the subsequent regional congresses in places like Panama, Montevideo and Havana. So, Phil, I was wondering if you can help us unpack this chapter a bit more. What were some of the key challenges and opportunities Methodist missionaries encountered in Latin America, especially given its strong Catholic and colonial legacy? And how did Methodist mission efforts in this region intersect with the growing ecumenical movement?
- [57:01]
Dr. Philip Wengayo Rayo
Yeah, thank you for the question. So I wanted to have at least one chapter about each major region of the world. So there's a chapter about Asia which we just discussed. There's a chapter about the origins of Methodism in Africa. And this final chapter of the book is about the arrival of Methodism and Protestantism in Latin America. And as you mentioned, the Roman Catholic Church enjoyed great hegemony in Latin America because of the Spanish conquest. Protestantism was not allowed. And so during Wesley's lifetime, there was. There were no opportunities. But he was aware of the tensions when he was in Georgia. There was a conflict going on with the Spanish, and the colony of Georgia is the southernmost of the original 13 colonies. And there was a territorial dispute because the Spanish had been there first. And so in a sense, the colony of Georgia served as a buffer and pushed the Spanish down into what is today the. The modern state of Florida. And so the British, they had a fort called Fort Frederica, which is right there on an island off the coast of Savannah. And they were watching the Spanish because they were afraid the Spanish were going to attack. So Wesley lived in this tension and he was aware through literature, through news reports of the constant battles in the Caribbean over these islands, over territorial disputes. So there was no opportunity to send missionaries to Spanish speaking countries during his lifetime. But after a few years in the 1820s, after the Napoleonic wars, there were some openings and Latin American countries began to gain their independence from Spain and they'd set up their own constitution. So this broke kind of the, the, the, the, the, the glass ceiling. And there were some Protestants that were allowed mainly through business. They could go and set up a, a business in Latin America. They were starting to build railroad tracks. The, the British would go and they would be expats. And so they would take their faith with him and they would build Protestant churches and, and schools. Most of these were English speaking, but then occasionally those, these colonists would request missionaries to come and there would be openings to begin to spread their faith. And so gradually throughout the 19th century, there were some cracks and there were opportunities. Sometimes people would come as door to door Bible salesmen and they would sell Bibles and then they would start small groups and start congregations. So this was a very ecumenical effort. Eventually the Methodists did send missionaries there and the Methodist churches started in Latin America, but it still remained a very Roman Catholic continent. And so Methodism was slow to grow along with the ecumenical Christian efforts to grow Protestant churches throughout the region.
- [60:36]
Byung Ho Choi
Well, thank you for that insight and also thank you for mentioning how this latter part, the part three, discusses not only just Latin America and Asia, but also different parts of the world too. So for our listeners, I think it's important to know that it doesn't only cover Asia and Latin America, but it also covers Africa as well. And I think you show how this global expansion of, of Methodism and also Methodist missionary movement too, in these regions. So I just wanted to highlight that for our listeners as we head towards the end of our interview today. There are two questions I would like to ask you, Phil, and that is, what do you hope scholars working on world Christianity, Methodist studies and mission history will take from your book? And what new doors for research would you say your book opens up to?
- [61:32]
Dr. Philip Wengayo Rayo
Oh, those are wonderful questions. I really enjoyed this conversation. So I would hope that scholars would learn, especially in the field of World Christianity, about how interconnected we are. For example, I would share the story the Quite remarkable story of a man by the name of Boston King. He was born into slavery outside of Charleston, South Carolina, and he worked under a master carpenter. And when the American Revolutionary War started, the British made an offer that any Africans who would come and fight on their side would be guaranteed their freedom. So one day, Boston King borrowed his master's horse and he rode off. And at the end of the day, he was afraid if he would go back, his master would whip him. And so he just decided to keep going. And so he rode his horse beyond the enemy lines and he supported the British during the war. He traveled behind enemy lines to carry messages, and he was caught in a swamp. I had all kinds of adventures. When the Americans lost the war, the slaveholders began to put up posters and they sent out bounty hunters to recuperate their property, quote, unquote. And so people like Boston King, who had fought with the British, were afraid that their masters were going to track them down. And so the British honored their promise and they asked the former slaves to find their way to New York City. And then in New York City, the British put them on ships to Nova Scotia. And Boston King was one of those former slaves who went to Nova Scotia. And there he became a Methodist. But the people in England were concerned about the well being of the. They called them Black Lives Loyalists because they were loyal to the British Crown even through the end of the Revolutionary War. And so they started devising this idea. Let's start a colony for freed slaves in Sierra Leone, Africa. And it was a utopian colony where blacks and whites would live together, where they would have equal rights, where they could participate in government, everyone would get a plot of land. And so they, they formally started the colony of Sierra Leone. And they sent word to the black loyalists in Nova Scotia, if you would like, you can go and be a part of this utopian project. So Boston King and his wife Violet got on a ship and there were about 1200 black loyalists who sailed to Freetown. Freetown, Sierra Leone. And there Boston King was the first person to start a Methodist school. And they were a part of a Methodist church, the first Methodist church on the continent of Africa. And he, he was a. He was a former slave. And so I would like scholars who study world religions to look at these connections. South Carolina, Nova Scotia, Sierra Leone. And Thomas Koch was instrumental in this project because he was collaborating with William Wilberforce, the great abolitionist, the parliamentarian in England, to start this colony in Sierra Leone. And when he realized that Boston King wanted to start a school, he Said, well, if you're going to be a school teacher or school master, you need a formal education. So Thomas Koch invited him to come to Bath, England, where he attended Kingswood School, had two years of formal education, and then went back to Sierra Leone where he taught and he lived for the rest of his days. So I would like scholars of world Christianity to see the global connections. People are corresponding, exchanging ideas, supporting, sending money, sending missionaries. And I think this is the beautiful thing about this field. It's, it's very complex, but it's interrelated. And you're, you're interacting with the dynamics that are going on with, with the slave trade and with colonialism. And I think that it's beautiful to see these connections and discover how Christianity actually developed around the world.
- [66:31]
Byung Ho Choi
Thank you so much for that wonderful answer. As we conclude today's interview, Phil, there's one last final question I would like to ask you, and that is, do you mind sharing with us your current and future projects or what you hope to work on as well?
- [66:47]
Dr. Philip Wengayo Rayo
Well, as a part of this research, I received a fellowship to go to the Wesley Manchester Research center in Manchester, England. And I went to the John Rylance Library, and they hold all of Thomas Koch's correspondence. And so I read through his letters. And this book has one chapter about Thomas Koch, but I think I'm just barely scratching the surface. And so my next project would be to develop that one chapter into a manuscript to continue to trace Thomas Koch and all of his travels. And towards the end of his life, he was instrumental of taking Methodism to India. This was his passion, his dream, and he raised money and he recruited five other missionaries to go with him. But unfortunately he died, probably of sleep apnea. When he was on the ship, they had already come around the Cape of Good Hope where he sent off his last letters. And when they were in the Indian Ocean, he died in his sleep and never actually got to India. The ship arrived in Sri Lanka and the other five preachers did start Methodism. But this wonderful legacy of Thomas Koch, who I use the title the Father Methodist Missions, I would like to develop and share more about his life work in my next project.
- [68:22]
Byung Ho Choi
Wonderful. That sounds like a truly promising project. And I eagerly anticipate Phil exploring more of your work and about Thomas Koch as well. And once again, thank you so much for your time today and talking about your book today. Thank you so much, Phil.
- [68:39]
Dr. Philip Wengayo Rayo
Oh, it was my pleasure. I really enjoyed the conversation. Byung Ho, thank you for what you do and thank you for the listeners who have followed along this conversation.
- [68:49]
Byung Ho Choi
And thank you so much again everyone for listening to today's episode in which we explore John Wesley and the origins of Methodist missions, written by Philip Wengayo Rayo and published by abingdon press in 2025. This is your host, Byung Ho Choi. And please stay tuned for the next episode on the New Books in World Christianity.
- [69:25]
Dr. Philip Wengayo Rayo
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