Podcast Summary

Podcast: New Books Network
Host: Caleb Zakrin
Guest: Priyanka Kumar, author of Light Between Apple Trees: Rediscovering the Wild Through a Beloved American Fruit (Island Press, 2025)
Date: April 6, 2026

Episode Overview

This episode explores Priyanka Kumar’s book, Light Between Apple Trees, which delves into the apple’s significance in American culture, ecology, and personal memory. Through an engaging mix of memoir, natural history, and cultural critique, Kumar investigates why apples hold such a powerful sway over us—despite the disappointing realities of today’s supermarket varieties. She also introduces the concept of the "microwild" and encourages a deeper, more intimate engagement with the natural world, using apples as an entry point.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Priyanka's Background & Apple Origins

• Growing Up in the Himalayas
  • Kumar shares early childhood memories among Himalayan apple orchards, describing apple trees as “beings who towered over me” ([02:19]).
  • Observes that apples have always held a deep, almost mystical pull for her, prompting her to investigate their broader cultural and ecological significance.

2. Apples and Mutualism with Animals

• Deep-Time Relationships
  • Kumar highlights scientific research tracing apples’ evolution to attract animals—first birds, later megafauna like bears—for seed dispersal ([04:06]).
  • In New Mexico, she studies feral apple trees' roles in sustaining bears and other wildlife, especially significant amid climate challenges like drought.
  • Proposes the concept of the "microwild": edge spaces harboring biodiversity, not just pristine forests ([06:47]).
    • Quote: “The microwild...are sustaining everyone from the chipmunk to the hummingbird to the bear to myself.” ([06:44])

3. Book Structure & Narrative Craft

• Monthly Structure & Sensory Narrative
  • Light Between Apple Trees is organized by months; each chapter blends personal narrative with scientific/historical insight ([07:29]).
  • Kumar’s aim is to write accessibly for both nature enthusiasts and general readers, moving beyond "elites speaking to elites."
    • Quote: “I experienced such deep joy, which I sometimes refer to as rasa… I wanted you to be right there with me.” ([07:58])
    • She wants to influence public consciousness for the sake of conservation efforts.

4. Apple Diversity & The Loss of Varieties

• The Tragedy of Lab Apples

  • Historical explosion of apple diversity post-introduction to America—over 16,000 named varieties at peak; now fewer than 20% remain accessible ([11:17], [13:41]).
  • Supermarket apples are called "lab apples"—engineered for storage, not flavor ([11:17]).
    • Quote: “We’re in, like, the death grip of 10 lab apples.” ([13:35])
  • Kumar shares anecdotes of tasting unique, historic apple varieties and discusses how grocery-bought apples disappoint due to monoculture and long-distance transport ([16:35]).
    • Even "organic" apples may taste lackluster if they’ve traveled cross-country instead of coming from local orchards.

• Metaphor for Modern Life

  • The apple’s monoculture parallels broader cultural homogenization. Rediscovering diversity in apples is a practical first step to reclaiming richness in our lives.

5. Rediscovering Orchard Traditions

• Local Orchard Engagement
  • Visiting local orchards and engaging with orchardists reveals flavors and stories absent from supermarket apples ([16:35]).
  • Early American settlers planted apple seeds before even building homes, fostering a national network of apple diversity and genetic exchange ([19:45]).

6. The Johnny Appleseed Myth

• Fact vs. Folklore
  • Kumar explores Johnny Appleseed (John Chapman) as both folk hero and real figure—an evangelist spreading apple seeds, mostly for cider and vinegar, not fresh eating ([21:58]).
  • Discusses skepticism of grafting among early Americans and how this affected apple culture.
  • Highlights overlooked "apple evangelists" like Archbishop Jean Baptiste Lamy, who fostered orchards for charity in 19th-century New Mexico ([25:57]).
    • Quote: “He was a grapefruit evangelist, I would say... planting this garden almost like a Garden of Eden.” ([23:44])

7. Apples in Founding Fathers’ America

• Apples, Slavery, & Phenology at Monticello
  • Kumar recounts research at Monticello, reflecting on Jefferson as a complex yet prescient figure in agriculture: he grew 170 varieties, kept meticulous ecological records, and corresponded globally about fruit ([29:40]).
    • Describes positive apple stories from Adams and negative aspects (e.g., slave labor).
    • Quote: “Not only did they want to distill their own cider, but they wanted to grow their own apple trees to make the cider from. And John had this dream where… his grandchildren would one day harvest from those trees.” ([33:21])

8. Civilization, Nature, and the Concept of the Microwild

• Challenging the Dichotomy
  • Kumar urges rethinking the nature/wild and civilization dichotomy, advocating for reconnection with the wild—especially via accessible micro-wild spaces ([37:39]).
    • Quote: “I feel like…it’s the wild that will save us.” ([38:01])
  • "Microwild" refers to small, neglected spaces with surprising biodiversity—offering regular people an entry point to nature.
    • Timely to cherish and conserve micro-wilds against encroaching development.

9. Trophic Chains & Ecological Webs

• Every Apple Matters
  • Kumar stresses the ecological interconnectedness revealed by close scientific and personal observation—how the loss of one species (e.g., prairie dogs) disrupts entire food chains ([42:49]).
    • Her upcoming book, Grassland Queen, focuses on such webs, using long-billed curlew birds and grasslands as a case study.

10. Apples as Eco-Education Entryway

• Apples as a Gateway to Biodiversity
  • Unlike wine (restricted to adults), apples offer everyone—including kids—a way to learn about agriculture, plant diversity, and ecosystems ([46:41]).
  • Suggests keeping an “apple journal” to rediscover diversity and foster ecological curiosity ([13:58]).

11. Apple Tasting Recommendations

• Varieties to Seek Out
  • Black Oxford: “Maine’s pride and joy,” historic and pistachio-like; “great keeper” ([48:01]).
  • Newtown Pippin: Oldest U.S. apple, praised by Jefferson and Franklin, keeps well into March ([48:30]).
  • Hidden Rose: Pinkish-red inside, “a little tart, but very delightful and visually appealing.”
  • Jonathan: Easy to find, flavorful.
    • Quote: “I think you could just spend a whole day studying an apple tree, especially old mother apple tree...it manages to sustain our spirit as well.” ([51:05])

Memorable Quotes

• “Why are apples such a powerful fruit? What’s the draw?” — Priyanka Kumar ([02:16])
• “They’re lab apples. That’s what I call them.” — Priyanka Kumar ([11:17])
• “We’re in, like, the death grip of 10 lab apples.” — Priyanka Kumar ([13:35])
• “It’s so important that we don’t get stuck in this mode where elites are speaking to elites…” — Priyanka Kumar ([08:40])
• “I feel like…it’s the wild that will save us.” — Priyanka Kumar ([38:01])
• “These places are very important because they can give the average person access to the wild and they do exist somewhere around you. You just have to be adventurous enough to find them.” — Priyanka Kumar ([40:26])
• “You could write a story of just an apple tree and all the animal life that it sustains. And… it manages to sustain our spirit as well.” — Priyanka Kumar ([51:05])

Key Timestamps

• [02:19] — Childhood in Himalayan orchards & apples’ personal significance
• [04:06] — Mutualistic evolution between apples, birds, and bears
• [06:47] — Development of the "microwild" concept
• [07:29] — Book structure & writing for a broad audience
• [11:17] — Decline of apple diversity; entering the “lab apple” era
• [16:35] — Local orchard traditions vs. disappointing store-bought apples
• [21:58] — The myth and reality of Johnny Appleseed
• [29:40] — Monticello, Thomas Jefferson, and apples among the Founding Fathers
• [37:39] — Civilization, nature, and the microwild’s potential
• [42:49] — Web of life, ecosystems, and the impact of species loss
• [48:01] — Priyanka’s favorite apple varieties and recommendations
• [51:05] — Reflections on the apple tree as sustainer of both nature and human spirit

This episode provides a thoughtful, sensory, and scholarly journey through the American apple’s past, present, and ecological future, making a compelling case for rediscovering diversity—in apples and in the wild places, both large and small, that nurture them.