Rachel Bachman on What Makes an Excellent Picture Book

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Rachel Bachman on What Makes an Excellent Picture Book

Podcast: New Books Network
Host: Mel Rosenberg
Guest: Rachel Bachman
Date: July 12, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this engaging episode, Mel Rosenberg interviews Rachel Bachman, a public children's librarian, illustrator, and influential voice in the kidlit community (notably via her Substack blogs). The central theme revolves around understanding what makes an excellent picture book—drawing on Rachel’s real-world experience reading to children, her insights about literary gatekeeping, the tension between message-driven and joyful books, issues of gender and professional respect in the field, and the craft itself.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Librarian’s Unique Perspective

• Rachel underscores the librarian’s rare, valuable vantage point—witnessing children’s authentic reactions to picture books. She notes her recommendations aren’t theoretical; they’re based on “reports from the field.” (02:03)
• While teachers and parents matter, Rachel stresses that librarians encounter “thousands of books pretty readily,” giving them a broad, deep sense of what resonates. (02:41)

Who Are Picture Books Really For?

• Rachel affirms, “Picture books are for kids”—not parents, teachers, or reviewers. (03:14)
• Cites the disparity between adult and child humor, providing the example of Lemony Snicket: “The adults do laugh at [his picture books]...the children are bored just because he’s operating at a higher level.” (03:33)
• Contrasts with Jon Klassen’s Hat trilogy, whose joke about object permanence is “brand new information to these children ... they think this joke is hilarious.” (03:59)

Message vs. Enjoyment in Picture Books

• Rachel pushes back on prioritizing morality or ‘the message’ in picture books:

  “Message doesn’t matter as much as we think because children rarely walk away even knowing the message by the end.” (06:07)

• The main goal: “My job is to make them love reading.” (06:33)
• She critiques new authors who center the book around a lesson: “That’s usually poor. The book might speak more to adults than children. Children honestly want silliness more…” (06:27)

The Pleasure and Power of Reading Aloud

• Reading aloud is, for Rachel, pre-literacy training—instilling crucial cognitive skills and confidence. She shares her approach using the book Moo, where kids join in and realize, “did you know you could read?” (07:31)
• Empowerment through play and participation is crucial, even if the story lacks a grand lesson: “They were laughing. Is there a philosophy behind Moo? I don’t think so. ... They loved the book the whole way through.” (08:51)

Nonfiction & Engagement

• Rachel admits she writes little about nonfiction but uses it with kids, especially on familiar topics like seasons. She emphasizes making children the “experts”—leaving blanks for them to fill in, which supports active processing and learning. (09:45–11:31)
• She critiques celebrity-authored inane books but praises the higher bar set by nonfiction editors for accuracy and engagement. (11:50)

Spotlight on Female Authors & Industry Gender Dynamics

• Rachel highlights women creators: "Brianna Karzu ... her books are hilarious...Liz Cuomo...her humor is so gentle.” (12:29)
• Rachel and Mel discuss the paradox: the kidlit world is numerically ‘dominated’ by women (as authors, editors, agents), yet men disproportionately become “geniuses,” bestsellers, or receive more recognition. (17:02)

  “Most artists are actually female. But go to museums of modern art...who are the ‘geniuses’? They tend to be men... There’s still a man’s world, in my opinion.” (17:02)

• The conversation delves into “self-fulfillment as value” used to justify low pay for feminized labor, and how kindness/emotional labor is underappreciated. Rachel reveals, “Many single fathers view me being kind to their child as some type of flirting and they hunt me down online. So that’s one of the reasons I avoid any social media like that.” (14:07)

Pathways to Publication: Traditional vs. Self-Publishing

• Rachel critiques the traditional publishing industry as “archaic,” likening it to the old French Academy—gatekeeping what counts as art or a book. (24:31–25:09)
• She’s open to self-publishing, provided quality standards are met, and values retaining intellectual property, especially one’s rights for adaptations and merchandise:

  “Why should I?...I care a lot...if somebody took my thoughtful work and without my leave, sold it to an animation company that turned it into some kind of farce for adults that children don’t like…it’s always about the children. And I am a control freak. Maybe that makes me a jerk.” (35:25)

• Mel argues for traditional routes, especially early in a creator’s career, for better outcomes through editorial rigor and market reach. (26:03)

The Craft: What Makes a Picture Book Work?

• Rachel details the constraints: “Typically around 32 pages and about 500 words, hopefully less. You also need to accommodate for the pictures and the words must be holding hands perfectly.” (28:33)
• Challenges include appealing to all ‘gatekeepers’: children, librarians, agents, publishers, and parents. (28:59)
• “Kids love silliness. They love certain kinds of repetition. They like rhyme when it’s done well. And they’re a sucker for any really good story. They love twists at the end, humor and irony.” (29:38)
• Rachel’s advice: Don’t underestimate the difficulty. “So often people presume anything to do with children…is easy...it’s the opposite.” (29:40)

Writing Rules, Rhyme, and Breaking Conventions

• On rules: Rachel advocates deep knowledge before inventively breaking them:

  “Know why you are breaking them…in making any art, in my opinion. Why are you writing this?” (39:59, 42:32)

• On rhyme and musicality: Both Mel and Rachel agree reading aloud is crucial, but Rachel warns, “We do sing slightly different than we speak, so a lot of [song-based] slanted rhymes...read aloud, it does break down…” (42:32)
• “Lighthouses aren’t hurting you. They’re telling you where the rocks are, how not to destroy this beautiful thing you’re trying to do.” (38:52)

Output and Success: The ‘Half Dozen Rule’

• Mel references the “half dozen classics rule”—that even the greatest produce few enduring works, and that’s success enough. “If you have half dozen classics…then you are in the pantheon of forever.” (47:27)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Rachel Bachman [03:14]: “Children are not adults on miniature. You almost need to look into psychological development…to start to understand their humor.”
• Rachel Bachman [06:33]: “My job is to make them love reading.”
• Rachel Bachman [25:50]: “Why wouldn’t I say picture books are harder to write than novels? ... There’s so much more going on under the surface.”
• Rachel Bachman [39:59]: “Instead of forgetting about [the rules], know why you are breaking them.”
• Rachel Bachman [42:32]: “Do you understand meter? Meter and tempo are not quite the same. They're cousins. There's crossover. But do not assume one equals the other.”
• Rachel Bachman [14:07]: “Many single fathers view me being kind to their child as some type of flirting and they hunt me down online.”
• Rachel Bachman [28:33]: “You have typically around 32 pages and about 500 words, hopefully less. You also need to accommodate for the pictures and the words must be holding hands perfectly.”
• Mel Rosenberg [47:27]: “If you have half dozen classics…then you are in the pantheon of forever.”
• Rachel Bachman [38:52]: “Lighthouses aren’t hurting you. They’re telling you where the rocks are, how not to destroy this beautiful thing you’re trying to do.”

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Important Timestamps

• 02:03 – Rachel introduces her public librarian experience and “field research”
• 03:33 – Example: Adult vs. child enjoyment (Lemony Snicket vs. Jon Klassen)
• 06:07 – The limited significance of message/moral in picture books
• 07:31 – Encouraging pre-literacy: making kids feel like readers (Moo)
• 12:29 – Rachel’s favorite contemporary female creators
• 17:02 – Gendered genius in kidlit and the art world
• 24:31 – Critique of traditional publishing; why self-publish
• 28:33 – The technical and creative constraints of picture books
• 39:59 – Knowing the rules before breaking them; advice on rhyme and lyricism
• 47:27 – “Half dozen classics” as a lifelong metric for literary greatness

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Closing Thoughts

Rachel Bachman, with practical warmth and firmness, insists that the heart of picture books is joy—for the children. Excellence means humor, silliness, and genuine engagement, rather than lessons delivered top-down. Craftsmanship means understanding every element, from cognitive development to rhyme, illustration to market realities. The industry’s gender paradoxes are real, as are the challenges of finding a publishing path that respects both creative autonomy and professional rigor. Above all, Rachel’s message is this: Get close to the kids, listen to their laughter—and never lose sight of the pleasure in creating and reading great stories.

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Transcript

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[Mel Rosenberg]

Welcome to the New Books Network. Hello to a wonderful young person, Rachel Bachman, it's so wonderful to have you on the show. Before I forget, I'm Mel Rosenberg and I'm host of the Children's Literature Channel at the New Network. I'm very excited and maybe nervous to be interviewing you because you're so young and so wise and you broke into the kidlet scene with your substack blogs, which have blown me away. So welcome to the show.

[Rachel Bachman]

Well, thank you, Mel. I'm so happy to be here.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Okay, well, let's see if you say the same thing in half an hour. I hope you will. You are a full time librarian and a few words about you and your career and then we'll get to the nitty gritty of what makes a wonderful picture book.

[Rachel Bachman]

Okay, so I work full time as a public children's librarian in the United States, which means I'm serving children from birth until 12 years old. I have the immense pleasure of reading picture books aloud to children and families multiple times a month, so I actually get to see the live reactions. These are not theoretical findings I write about, they are kind of reports from the field. So that's who I am.

[Mel Rosenberg]

It's wonderful. So are librarians the people, the go to people for deciding what makes a great picture book?

[Rachel Bachman]

It's debatable because there are fabulous other people out there. Teachers are wonderful, parents are wonderful, but I do see thousands of books pretty readily. We Have a very large collection at my library. I believe we have over 70,000 books. So it's hard to compete with that level of knowledge all at once. But I never want to discount anyone's experience or expertise. There are others out there.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Okay, wonderful. But you've written that at the end of the day, the picture books are for kids.

[Rachel Bachman]

Absolutely. I think one of the things since I do read aloud to families is I get to see the adult reaction too. And I have read books where the adults are laughing and the children are actively trying to flee because they're so bored.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Hold on, hold on. Give me an example. Give me.

[Rachel Bachman]

I don't want to pick on him, but Lemony Snicket, who's had fabulous success in middle grade, has written some picture books that the adults do laugh at and they get and they engage with, and the children are bored just because he's operating at a higher level. He's very humorous to us. But children are not adults on miniature. You almost most need to look into psychological development of children preschool and younger to start to understand their humor. Because one of the good examples, John Classen's Hat trilogy, the premise is object permanence, which is new to these children and to you or me, you're like, yes, the hat keeps existing throughout all these settings. So that's a good example of where you're like, I as an adult. Yeah, I got it. The hat still exists, even though it's on a fish, a bear, whomever. But this is brand new information to these children. They've just discovered it. And so they think this joke is hilarious.

[Mel Rosenberg]

It's fantastic. But they don't buy the books.

[Rachel Bachman]

No, they don't buy the books. And that's one of the reasons I wrote the article, because they don't buy the books. They. They rarely are solely in charge of what gets checked out from the library. It's the adults. And so often we as adults also think, well, books are for learning. True. I'm not debating that. They can teach wonderful lessons. So we're like, what is this book doing? You know, what is it teaching? What are they walking away with? But while I do say children are different, they're also similar to adults in the sense of, why do you and I read for enjoyment? Most of the time they would like to enjoy it, too. And so we need to find a way that this isn't just an object for teaching. That's quote unquote, doing something. It needs to be a joy and a pleasure. So they keep reading throughout their lives.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Okay, so let's go to the argument of a book having a message. You know, this goes back, I don't know, 80 years to Ursula Nurstrom, who opine that books have to be fun. And so when you take a book out on the shelf to read to 5 year olds at the library, how important is the message? Isn't the message supposed to be secondary? I mean, you quoted I want my hat back. What's the message? It's okay to eat a rabbit.

[Rachel Bachman]

You know, message doesn't matter as much as we think because children rarely walk away even knowing the message by the end. There are good messages out there. I am not saying every book with a message, but too often new picture book authors might almost approach this book as. I have my point I want to make. This is an argument. And I will just frame my picture book around that. That's usually poor. The book might speak more to adults than children. Children honestly want silliness more than anything else. Because my job isn't to teach them to be kind. That's a whole other thing. Through books, my job is to make them love reading. And as they learn and love reading, readers do become more compassionate people. Readers can see the world through others eyes, through books and novels. But if we cut them off because we teach them that reading is a very boring chore where everyone else in the room is laughing but you, we've lost the battle, in my opinion.

[Mel Rosenberg]

So, Rachel, when you're reading to the kids, it's like you're a kind of a reading role model where the kids say, oh, you know, I'm in kindergarten, I can't read yet, but wow, a year from now I'll be able to stand up and read like Rachel. Is that part of the.

[Rachel Bachman]

So what we're doing is also pre literacy skills. That's an important thing because reading is a highly cognitively complicated thing. There's ongoing research that if you cannot read by 12 years old, you may never read successfully in your life. We might get you sort of kind of there, you might know a stop sign, for instance, but you'll never be able to think on that higher level. So we have to build them up to do this. And so one of the things you're teaching them is turning the page. The story goes on. These words on the page have meaning, you know, and some of it's empowering. It I cannot think of the author's name, but the book is called Moo. And the only word throughout the entire story is a cow going moo again and again with like different letters. And stuff. And I typically have my older preschoolers read with me because they know the sound. And then I can track it with my finger on the page where it's like, okay, get ready. And then at the end, I can be like, did you know you could read? I didn't know you could read. Coming in here. And they just feel so accomplished. And so that builds them up. They were laughing. Is there a philosophy behind Moo? I don't think so. The cow gets in a car and does all sorts of action twists and turns like a roller coaster. And at the end, the farmer's confused. I don't know if that's a life lesson, but they loved the book the whole way through.

[Mel Rosenberg]

A little bit about the picture books that you grew up on.

[Rachel Bachman]

Oh, my goodness. My mother read me a ton of books. So I grew up with a fabulous collection of picture books. So of course I had Dr. Seuss. I had. Oh, my goodness. I wasn't ready for this question, Dr. Seuss. Of course. This is where I look like a fool because I haven't thought of you.

[Mel Rosenberg]

No, no, you can answer in a few minutes. You're not a fool. I asked to interview you because you are so erudite. You haven't written. So let's go back to this quandary of the message versus the story or the silliness. You have not written much about nonfiction.

[Rachel Bachman]

No, I haven't.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Why is that?

[Rachel Bachman]

I'm still thinking.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Do you ever grab. When you have your kids, do you ever grab a nonfiction book and say, okay, now we're gonna learn about the parts of the body or you generally don't do that.

[Rachel Bachman]

We do some non fiction, of course. And usually what I rely on there is I let them be the expert. I do a lot on seasons of the year because children typically have experience with it and adults are talking to them about it as well. So when it's summer, I might get a very simple non fiction book about summer in some ways. And so I love leaving words out. So it's like, it's summertime. The sun is out and shining. The world is now, and the next word should be hot. And you just let them fill it in. And they might say warm, they might say raining. They might be totally off, but they're thinking. I think it's always important to remember when talking to young children, even up until like 12 or 14, whoever is doing the talking is doing the learning and the thinking. And adults, we get bored, board, we want to fill it in. We want to just be like, come on it's summer, it's warm. Let's get going. Children need that time to process. They need to be the ones giving the answers. They need to be the experts to engage with your content. So I have nothing against nonfiction, but I do think, for whatever reason, because we have to present true and factual information, the nonfiction books tend to be better in their own way because there's a lot more policing, there's a lot more thought, versus an author who might be well known for something else. I'm going to pick on Jimmy Fallon, who has these board books I kind of despise called Everything is Daddy, and they're inaneven for a baby, and I don't know if he would have been able to publish those if he wasn't who he was. Versus nonfiction. You usually have to have some expertise in the field or some reason you're writing. You probably do have some kind of copy editor coming through behind you saying, well, is this true? Is this the best way to present this information? So that's why I don't write about it. I do love nonfiction. Do not walk away thinking I have anything against nonfiction.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Okay, that's wonderful. Let's now segue. You've talked about a lot of men who are your favorite female authors for picture books or illustrators because you're also an illustrator.

[Rachel Bachman]

I am an illustrator. The one I highlighted for this one, because she's broken onto the scene wonderfully, is Brianna Karzu. She's written Greenlight and Squish and one other I'm not thinking of. Her books are hilarious, and the premise is fabulously simple. I really enjoy her work along with Liz Cuomo. I've been following her since Tumblr, so it's kind of sometimes trippy because I was a high schooler when I started following her, and so I see a book on the shelf and it's like I immediately know it's her art. Her humor is so gentle. It's.

[Mel Rosenberg]

I like her, too, Rachel. Now, let's talk about another. We're moving from point to point because there's so much to discuss, and then we'll come back. You have an entire blog on women in museums and in libraries. Kind of. I don't know what the right word is. Not getting a fair. Not getting a fair deal. You know, doing stuff that you love and then getting paid poorly for it and not being high. Well, I'm holding you in high regard here. What is this all about?

[Rachel Bachman]

You know, I think sometimes people treat self fulfillment when it comes to feminized work as the value in itself. So they say, well, you love what you do, so I'm not going to pay you well. Meanwhile, pilots who skew mail, by and large, probably to about the same extent, most pilots love flying and we pay them fabulously and no one's coming to them saying, well, you love what you do. You get to see the whole world. We're going to slice your paycheck in half. So it's almost. There's also the assumption for a lot of women that if I was not in the workforce, I still would be caring for children in some capacity. So. So why are we paying you for something you're already doing? So that was kind of the takeaway from it. And you know, we don't always see kindness as labor. You asked if I have a Facebook page. One of the reasons I don't is many single fathers view me being kind to their child as a some type of flirting and they hunt me down online. So that's one of the reasons I avoid any social media like that. So. So there are pitfalls when you are a woman doing emotional labor. And that's what I was writing about there.

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[Mel Rosenberg]

Okay, so, but how does this work for the picture books? Now, as a guy, I'm going to go down a limb a bit. 90% of the people that I Interview including. You are women, ostensibly women. Most picture books are written by women. Most illustrators are women. Most editors at most publishing houses are women. Most agents are women. My new agent is a woman. So you think that. And also, you know, we might argue that the pay in writing a picture book is not commensurate with the amount of work it takes. And illustration perhaps, but is this. I mean, picture books at least are a woman's world, are they not?

[Rachel Bachman]

They're very similar to the art world, which I'm very. I have an undergrad in fine arts arts. So I think you have to pause and say most artists are actually female. But now go to museums of modern art and start looking around. And even though we skew feminine, by and large, who are the. And I put this in quotes for those listening geniuses, they tend to be men. And for whatever reason, if you go to, say, the bestseller list for picture books, it skews male too. So it's not that women aren't making books, they're making fabulous books. But the problem is, for whatever reason, we give men more attention when they do it because there's fewer of them. If they go to a networking event immediately there's a meet more attention on them because it's like, there's one man in this room, let's learn why he's here. And so there's still. It's still a man's world, in my opinion. I'm sorry if that offends, but you know, they get to be geniuses in quotation marks more frequently versus a woman would be more likely to. Oh, you write picture books. What a nice hobby for you, like, well, that's not my hobby, that's my career.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Okay, but hold on a second. Ten minutes ago, when I knew we'd have stuff to talk about. This is so wonderful. When I asked you to cite a wonderful children's book authors, you mentioned Dr. Seuss, who's a guy, and John Classen, who's a guy. And you might also perhaps love Mo Willems, who's a guy, and maybe Maurice Sendak, who's a guy. And are these guys not geniuses?

[Rachel Bachman]

You know what?

[Mel Rosenberg]

Do you think somebody gave them a break potentially?

[Rachel Bachman]

I do. I mean, Mo Willems, if you followed his career, he was working for Sesame street, which was very competitive as a 20 year old. I don't know. They are geniuses.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Maybe he was a genius. I mean, I think he's a genius even when he was 20.

[Rachel Bachman]

Let me reframe. I know, but let me reframe this isn't an either or. There are fabulous men writers out there who I do celebrate. This is not an either or. This is a yes. And we need to also be making sure we're elevating women's voices as well as other minority voices. And they also need to not be. So often in picture books, if you're elevated as a minority voice, it's because your picture book is speaking to that minority in some way, in almost a troubling way. You know, a lot of African American authors here get a lot of prestige if they write books about certain barriers you might face or something like that. And there's nothing wrong with that. I do love those books. But who are the African American authors we're letting just write silly books that are just silly, no big takeaway like what I've been writing about here. And for whatever reason, we also allow men to just write the silly books that then are runaway successes instead of saying, what's your angle? What are you teaching? Because the industry starts working in an architecture they understand that I think works against ultimately the child readers.

[Mel Rosenberg]

I'm going to venture. I've never done this before, but I'm going to venture another theory.

[Rachel Bachman]

Okay.

[Mel Rosenberg]

And there's also a caveat to this or some other word that I don't understand properly. Guys have a lot more trouble breaking into the kid lit community. It's much harder to break in. I mean, if I, earlier in my career, like many of the women I interviewed in their 40s, 50s, they're already writing children's books. If I stop my career as a professor of microbiology, and I said, okay, now I'm going to write picture books, I'll be rejected 300 times. I won't make any money over the course of eight years. And if I did that, my barrier of entry would be much greater. There's another thing when you go to the library and I don't know, it's just a subjective feeling. The books in the library are mostly. Whether they're written about small boys or small girls or small animals, they have a women's sensitivity to them. And for me to get my first book published, I had to kind of go into my woman's side and write about a girl that I loved. And one of the critics who wrote a very nice piece about the book, when I spoke to him to thank him, he said, oh, my goodness, you're a guy. I thought you were a woman, which I took to be a compliment. So I think, and I know that I'm going out on A limb. And people are gonna be angry with me, including my dearest friends in the industry, that there should be an old voices section for guys. Not Mo willems and not Dr. Seuss, but just run of the mill, middle, really good children's authors.

[Rachel Bachman]

Okay, I could see that being your argument. I did just write an article about middle grade boys. I don't know if you saw that one yet. So I do agree there is some feminization in the way we write literature to begin with, some of which is more. Women are writers, as you pointed out, many are drawing from their own life experience.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Rachel. Excuse me. Also, the gatekeepers are women. The editors are mostly women. The agents are mostly women. There's a women's sensitivity that. I'm also almost gonna say that guys have to maybe womenize themselves a little bit to break in or have a very strong woman side.

[Rachel Bachman]

I take your argument and I raise you that most female startups, if you were joining business, are in less beholden to banks because they tend to what we call in America, bootstrap their own endeavors. Women, because some, most of the time, they're trying to do things as a side hustle or I'm a mother and will just go forth and make it happen for them in a way some men don't. I feel like, by and large, many men feel entitled to, quote, unquote, legitimacy through typical structures. Whereas I just got online and started saying things. If I ever do publish, I'm going to self publish because I just don't want to do the agent thing. I've tried it. It wasn't fun.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Oh, hold on, hold on.

[Rachel Bachman]

Okay.

[Mel Rosenberg]

All right, another thing to discuss. Listen, I want to have you on every couple of months just to blow off some steam here. I shouldn't say your blogs on Substack. Everybody look for Rachel Buckman. Wonderful, wonderful, wonderful pieces about kid lit. And that's how I found out about you. But you are an aspiring kid lit author illustrator.

[Rachel Bachman]

Yes, I am.

[Mel Rosenberg]

And you know, you're so young and you've given up already.

[Rachel Bachman]

I haven't given up. I do not view self publishing as giving up. This is another. So I'm trained in fine visual arts. I will say, hand to my heart. I view the publishing industry as archaic. It reminds me of the French Academy system for painting. If you're not aware, back in the 1700s, Paris got to decide if your painting was a painting. It sounds bizarre. I think we've frozen.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Ah, okay, we're going to unfreeze in a minute. Here you are.

[Rachel Bachman]

Yes, all Right, Yes. Where was I? I saw, I froze, so I stopped speaking.

[Mel Rosenberg]

You were talking about Paris.

[Rachel Bachman]

Okay, so Parisian. The French Academy got to decide. Is your painting a painting? What category does this painting go into? If it doesn't have a category, it's no longer art. Doesn't this start to sound like publishing? You have to send your heart and soul and hard work to somebody else and they'll get to tell you. They also get to decide how much you sell it for. And they didn't have intellectual rights the way we do now. But I wouldn't put it past them if they were aware. They would have started grabbing your copyrights too if they had that concept. So that's one of the reasons I lean towards self publishing is why should I?

[Mel Rosenberg]

Even for picture books?

[Rachel Bachman]

Even for picture books. Why wouldn't I say picture books are harder to write than novels? I will say that because there's so much more going on under the surface, in my opinion.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Okay, I'm going to say one thing and then I'm going to qualify it. I have never seen a self published picture book that doesn't have some. Is there a word lacuna in English that doesn't have some fault. And this includes many books that I self published. It's very hard to get picture books right now. I know people are going to argue many books that are published traditionally are not really that great. But I interview here, I'm going to be castigated for this. I know I interview here, people who have written traditionally published picture books because the chance that their book will be good is much better, I think. And this goes from my own books too. And I think it's better at the beginning. This is me. I think it's better at the beginning of the career to try and be traditionally published because you can if you're very good, even if nobody knows you, you're anonymous and from Nebraska. If you write really spectacular stuff and you illustrate really well, you will be noticed. Now correct me.

[Rachel Bachman]

Well, let me back up. So it's very easy to self publish. There is a lot of slop and I just call it slop, especially with AI out there where people are rushing through it because the barrier to entry is of course lower. However, just because you are self published does not mean you have not sought out editors, other expertise. You haven't had somebody go back and refine. And so that's a lot what you get with traditional publishing. And some people view self publishing as a way to get around that, which I do say is a mistake. It will not be as good unless you've had other voices in the room. I do also think that one of the reasons we know of great books traditionally published is simply a matter of marketing. But there's a lot of books that are not great that are also traditionally published and out of print very quickly.

[Mel Rosenberg]

But there's reasons for that. And actually you've alluded to them. To write a good picture book is daunting. Give us a few of the challenges here that are almost impossible to overcome.

[Rachel Bachman]

Well, you have typically around 32 pages and about 500 words, hopefully less. You also need to accommodate for the pictures and the words must be holding hands perfectly. They mo. They have to both be telling this story equally or it feels off balance. And then kids have to like it. It is very hard to do. But I.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Hold on, hold on, Rachel. Kids have to like it. Librarians like you have to like it. The agent has to like it. The publisher has to like it. The grandparents have to like it. There's a whole list of having to like it. Right. And you've written about it. It should be. And I concur with these things. Kids love silliness. They love certain kinds of repetition. They like rhyme when it's done well. And they're a sucker for any really good story. They love twists at the end. You humor and irony. And I'm not an illustrator, so I sit and I write stories that don't have any illustrations.

[Rachel Bachman]

Okay.

[Mel Rosenberg]

This is a real challenge.

[Rachel Bachman]

This is a very big challenge. It's not easy to do. And that's. I do think so often people presume anything to do with children, especially because when you were the consumer of this product, you were a child. They assume it is easy. They're like, well, this is child's work. Because I enjoyed it as a child. It's the opposite. You know, like I just said with Lemony Snicket. Fabulous author for middle grade. Unrivaled. His books are still well read. And when it comes to his picture books. Eh, I could leave it or take it.

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[Rachel Bachman]

So yeah, intense.

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[Rachel Bachman]

you know. So I don't want to say it's easier. All art is hard when done well. But there are a lot more boxes.

[Mel Rosenberg]

No, but Rachel, come on. You're an artist. You studied fine art, okay? You can take a canvas and make a beautiful, beautiful picture. Whose picture is behind you there on the wall?

[Rachel Bachman]

It's actually my grandmother's.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Wow. Beautiful. So I mean, you can from A to Z, you can create your own artwork. You cannot do that. When you're an author. You are dependent on somebody that can pay enough money to hire a really good illustrator and not denigrate them. Because I think that illustrators should be paid a fortune for illustrating a good picture book. So we're looking at 60 or $70,000 to publish a really good picture book. Most independent publishers don't have that kind of money.

[Rachel Bachman]

That is true. I would say that you can still find illustrators that. Not that we're not paying them but you could go into partnership with them. You can look at student artists who everyone deserves to get started somewhere. Maybe you disagree, but I agree.

[Mel Rosenberg]

I have, together with my wife and ranch there in the United States, established a website. We did this 14 years ago that enables people to create picture books for free. And we have over 300,000 books of all kind. And they're all free. But in retrospect, it's more of a training ground. It helped me become traditionally published. It's very hard to get all the ducks in a row. And when I read your blog, I realized how hard it is. Which brings me to my. One of my last questions for you today. Are you having a good time?

[Rachel Bachman]

I'm having a great time. I'm smiling the whole way through.

[Mel Rosenberg]

We're talking about stuff that is so close to both of our hearts.

[Rachel Bachman]

That is very true.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Okay. If I were to say to you, Rachel, you could be traditionally published within two or three years, would you take that route?

[Rachel Bachman]

It's tricky because. What does that mean? Do I get to keep my intellectual property?

[Mel Rosenberg]

No.

[Rachel Bachman]

Then, no. I mean, look at. Yeah. The only thing I can liken it to that I think our audience can relate to quickly enough is the music industry. Look at the Kerfloffel Taylor Swift went through to get her intellectual property back.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Yeah, but that's Taylor Swift. You know, Rachel, about 20 years ago, I released two albums.

[Rachel Bachman]

Oh, okay. I did not know this.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Yeah. And somebody came to me and it was the beginning of. Even before Spotify, I don't know what it was, and said, mel, we'd like to take your songs and put them on, I don't know, some kind of Spotify thing. But you can keep the copyright. But you'll never get any money for them. But everybody in the world will listen to them. And I said no, because I wanted to protect my copyright. And I was a jerk because I'm not Taylor Swift. Few hundred people know that I'm a musician and I kept my. My ip, but nobody listens to my music.

[Rachel Bachman]

Yes. But I would argue against that, that a lot of new people entering the music industry have successfully negotiated initially for their rights to their work. I just don't quite understand why the Big Five get to hold all the copyrights here and then get to do whatever they want with their work. And some of it isn't. I wouldn't say it's being a jerk. It's that I care a lot. And if I were to publish a successful book and one of the things I'm working on Involves dogs. I can see this becoming a stuffed animal, a cartoon, whatever, given to the wrong people and me losing all control. And it would break my heart if somebody took my thoughtful work and without my leave, sold it to an animation company that turned it into some kind of farce for adults that children don't like. And I was never intending to do so. It's not. It's always about the children. And I am a control freak. Maybe that makes me a jerk. I can acknowledge it.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Okay. No, no. So, Rachel. Rachel, to be a children's author, I think that you have to be able to lose your control freakiness. Because until I was about 60, I was a control freak and I wasn't writing well. Okay, so this brings me to my last question for you for today, or at least my almost last question. Okay. I have never met or met online anyone as young as you who has such astute opinions about writing picture books.

[Rachel Bachman]

Well, thank you.

[Mel Rosenberg]

But if I. If I knew as much as you did about writing picture books and the challenges, I don't think I would ever write. One of the good things is that I started writing before I started reading your blog because it is so daunting. Do you think that knowing too much is gonna prevent you from writing these wonderful, silly songs and songs? They are songs. You've said that. Stories just because it's so difficult to do. Whereas today I just say, okay, I know more or less what I'm doing. I'm just going to have fun and write.

[Rachel Bachman]

So I go back to being a fine artist. So I had to sit through professional critiques. And one of my advantages through being a fine artist is you display your finished work and there's no going back. Typically, you can just try again. And so that is how I approach writing, where it's like you write it. And fortunately, words are easier to adjust than oil paints. You can go back and repaint oils, but for better or worse, it's much simpler to just hit the backspace, rewrite the line, and go again. I do not think there's anything like too much information. It is hard. It's worthy work. Worthy work is hard. There's lots of hard things people do all the time. Heart surgery is hard. We have surgeons performing it every single day very successfully. So just because it's creative doesn't mean it's not labor, doesn't mean we don't need to know the parameters and how to do this well. And it also means we need to hear other voices guiding us, like lighthouses. Lighthouses aren't Hurting you. They're telling you where the rocks are, how not to destroy this beautiful thing you're trying to do.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Okay, but, you know, I once heard this great TED talk from a surgeon. I'm trying to remember his name right now, and I'm also stuck. What he said is, you know, I'm a jazz musician, and I improvise, but when I go in to do an operation, the patients don't ask me to be very innovative.

[Rachel Bachman]

Fair enough.

[Mel Rosenberg]

But when you write picture books, you kind of. What you should, I think, is you should know enough rules and then kind of forget them. Because, in essence, to write a really good story, like I Want my hat back, you have to break the rules. And there are several broken rules in class's work. And I think that that's part of what kids latch onto and parents are hysterical about. And I would say the same thing about another hero of mine. Excuse me, I'm talking about men today. But Mo Willems, he's a big hero of mine. Um, so your comment on that. Should we know a lot of rules and then go ahead and forget about them?

[Rachel Bachman]

I think instead of forgetting about them, know why you are breaking them? So many people just throw everything to the wayside. I just wrote another article about rhyming because people think, well, I can rhyme cat and hat, so I'm halfway there already. And they might think of two really great opening stanzas. And as they keep writing, since they never learned the rules and writing in lyricism is very tricky, they all of a sudden write a book that sort of kind of rhymes, completely breaks down, and the kids stop liking and the parents stop liking, and I can hardly read it. And I read professionally. And so that's the thing. And I also included in that article when to include a slanted or broken rhyme. And it's not because, well, I don't need the rules. It's I know precisely why I'm breaking that rule this time, to write the best book I can. So there's a world of difference between forgetting and knowing precisely what you're doing. So I would advocate for that, because you know the rules enough to know I will break it this time to achieve this goal.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Okay, but, you know, kids learn to speak English without, you know, going to grammar school when they're two years old. And, you know, you have this great. This great piece with the rhyming, and you say how important it is to read. You know, you rhyme aloud and see whether it works or not. Really?

[Rachel Bachman]

Absolutely.

[Mel Rosenberg]

And this is true, I think, for even the Non rhyming, even. Maybe more important is to keep. To read aloud all the picture book manuscripts. Read them aloud. Read them aloud. Have other people read them to you. I do this all the time, but I'm going to. What I've told people who want to write rhyme, which I do some of the time, is that you have to be able to sing it, okay? Not only recite it. If you can turn it into a song and it works right, and the meter doesn't go all haywire, then you have a chance. And I think that some. That there's a person who's a musician and maybe it's just me, has a certain advantage in writing these kinds of lyrical and the magical and musical stories, because somewhere in his brain, there's music going on.

[Rachel Bachman]

I would agree, especially when it comes to rhyming. I would also say there are some flaws to that. Some. I'm going to pick on another celebrity. She's fabulously wealthy, so she'll survive. Kelly Clarkson wrote a book, and she relied almost too much on the logic of songwriting. And so a lot of her. We do sing slightly different than we speak, so a lot of her slightly slanted rhymes would have worked as song. But read aloud, it does break down because you would smooth out some of the syllables so the meter would be different. So, yes and no. It can, but it circles back again to, do you know the rules and why you're breaking them and why you're doing this? The why is always the most important thing in making any art, in my opinion. Why are you writing this? Like, I got an interesting substack comment on the article we're discussing today about what children want. Where they said, well, does this apply for adult lovers of children's books? And it's like, well, who are we writing for here? Are you writing a picture book for adults? I mean, I think we call those coffee table books. Yeah, I guess. Sure, there's rules for that. But if you're writing for children, whether an adult is super drawn to it or not is not the point. Your audience is the children.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Fantastic. So know the rules and then break them. For a good reason.

[Rachel Bachman]

For a good reason that you know yourself, not just you want to do it, because that's always the temptation, okay?

[Mel Rosenberg]

And if you're a songwriter, be careful with the slanted rhymes.

[Rachel Bachman]

Be careful just. Once again, do you understand meter? Meter and tempo are not quite the same. They're cousins. There's crossover. But do not assume one equals the other. It comes back to almost counting syllables, too. A lot of people say, I don't understand meter. I'll count the syllables. Yes, but no.

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[Mel Rosenberg]

You know, yeah, but I teach the Beatles, and the Beatles did not go to rhyming school, and they did not go. They did not read music. And they knew some rules and they broke other rules, and they were still the Beatles. So there's room for a whole gamut of artists, I think here.

[Rachel Bachman]

They also wrote prolifically, and not all of their songs are created equal. So sometimes you can overcome obstacles through output. I would raise you that.

[Mel Rosenberg]

And I do not teach all the Beatles songs.

[Rachel Bachman]

See, because they didn't always know what they were doing.

[Mel Rosenberg]

No, no, that's. That's also. But, you know, a famous editor here once said to me, if you look at any. The output of any art, okay, if they have half a dozen classics in their entire lives. He was referring to one of my favorite poets, W.H. auden. He says, look at Auden. You know, what are the classics? If he has half a dozen classics, you know, Robert Frost. I don't know these people. We hold in such high, regardless. And even Dr. Seuss, he wrote very prolifically. Not all of his stories are Fantastic. So I really believe in the half dozen rule. If you have half dozen classics and the Beatles have many more, then you are in the pantheon of forever.

[Rachel Bachman]

Absolutely.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Is there anything that I forgot here? I just had so much fun talking with you today.

[Rachel Bachman]

I did, too.

[Mel Rosenberg]

What happened?

[Rachel Bachman]

Really?

[Mel Rosenberg]

What haven't I asked you?

[Rachel Bachman]

I don't know. We've talked a lot about picture books. I've had a really good time now. You wrote a book. Tell me about that. I know your audience knows, but I don't.

[Mel Rosenberg]

No, I wrote a book called Emily Saw Adore, published now in America by Penguin Random House, and we'll see how it does. And when you get your copy, maybe you'll tell me what's good and less good about it.

[Rachel Bachman]

I would love to discuss that with you.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Okay, maybe we'll do that. I don't know whether we'll do it live on camera.

[Rachel Bachman]

That's okay.

[Mel Rosenberg]

What are you thinking?

[Rachel Bachman]

When is the publication date?

[Mel Rosenberg]

No, it's out since February.

[Rachel Bachman]

It's out? Oh, my goodness. I've got to double check. We have that at my library. I would love to.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Oh, yes. You know, I didn't even think about that. But what I would like is for you to order it and read it to the kids and then tell me whether they liked it or not.

[Rachel Bachman]

Oh, I can do that.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Okay. Because that's one thing I learned from you. And so, Rachel Backman, this has been. Buckman, this has been wonderful. I can't wait for our next interview. I can't wait to see your growth as an author illustrator, wherever that might take you. And to everybody who's interested in kidlit, you don't. Rachel, you do not hold. You don't have sacred cows, and you don't hold any. What's it called? The Bard. You tell us the way you see it, and bless you for that. And I am going to be an avid reader, and I suggest everybody else.

[Rachel Bachman]

Thank you so much, Mel. I really appreciated coming on today.

[Mel Rosenberg]

It was so much fun. And I've been here with Rachel Bachman, librarian, author, illustrator, and today we're talking about her articles on Substack, which are wonderful. And I'm Mel Rosenberg, host of the Children's Literature Channel of the New Books Network. Take care, everybody. Have a great week. Rachel, thanks so much.

[Rachel Bachman]

Yeah. Thank you.

[Podcast Announcer]

Thank you for listening to this episode of the New Books Network. We are an academic podcast network with the mission of public education. If you liked this episode, please share it with a friend and rate us on your preferred podcast platform. You can browse all of our episodes on our website newbooksnetwork.com Connect with us on Instagram and BlueSky with the handle ewbooksnetwork, and subscribe to our weekly Substack newsletter at newbooksnetwork.substack.com to get episode recommendations straight to your inbox.

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